The Reprobate Doctrine

Waitingforgood said:

Now, there are certain things such as in Hebrews 6 and 10 that put people beyond salvation,

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Nonsense! There is absolutely NOTHING that puts ANYBODY beyond the all consuming love and grace of God that never ends!

The love and grace of our Father has zero time constraints.

Forgiveness extends a minimum of 70X7

Daniel C said:

Being compared with the Apostle Paul, I'll take that as a compliment! And I don't think I'm undermining Christs words,you have a faulty Bible version:

Ephesians 1:10
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Doesn't say all will be saved.

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Dear Daniel: I have at least 25 "faulty" Bible translations, all of which declare the whole of created life (the WHOLE) shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption.

Daniel C said:

Ephesians 1:10
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Doesn't say all will be saved.

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Dear Daniel: Do you have any idea what to reconcile means?

Katallasso

Properly denotes to change or exchange, or to change from enmity to friendship.

Reconciliation is what God accomplishes in the extension of His love & grace to sinful mankind in Jesus Christ.

The enmity is alone on our part. It was we who need to be reconciled to God, not God to us, and it is propitiation, which His righteousness and mercy have provided, that makes the reconciliation possible…

Strong link to Apokatallasso

To reconcile completely/ to change from enmity to friendship .

It is the Divine purpose to reconcile the all of ta panta through Christ unto Himself.



“It is in Him, and through the shedding of His blood, that we have our deliverance–the forgiveness of our offences–so abundant was God’s grace, the grace which He, the possessor of all wisdom and understanding, lavished upon us, when He made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God’s merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it–the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in Heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him. And you…”

The Righterzpen said:

Not everyone who died as atoned for, on in the OT side of the cross was allowed access into heaven. So they were there awaiting the completion of the atonement.

What did Christ preach to them? He would have preached to them that God will not forsake one who has no sin (making a reference to Himself) and that He'd died to atone for sinners and therefor they had hope of being released from their prison.

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So, an elite class were allowed in heaven before the cross?

Everyone has been atoned for. The difference is whether you have received it or not.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

The Righterzpen said:

That statement though does not denote that they all do so out of love or gratitude. Verse 21 of Psalm 139 the Messiah speaks of hating His enemies with a perfect hatred and He will continue to "snap them off" because of their disobedience and they are forced to consider diligently the one they compassed about to kill.

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So, you are claiming an emotional component to our salvation contract?
Every tongue will confess Jesus Christ as Lord. Even C.S. Lewis says he was dragged into the kingdom against his will. (kicking and screaming) I don't think the emotional aspect has anything to do with it. The same applies for forgiveness. It is a simple contractual decision. Remorse or emotion is not required.

The Righterzpen said:

The canon of Scripture had been completed by the end of the 1st century because all the Scripture had been written. The miraculous signs the Jews sought disappeared as part of the closing of the canon. This is what's eluded to (and you see it more clearly in the Greek) when Paul talks about prophecies will fail, tongues will cease and knowledge will vanish away.

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The canon of NT scripture was not a singular writing that stopped with the book of Revelation in 95 AD. The New Testament canon was a collection of books in an approved form (27 books) that was not finalized until the Council of Carthage AD 397. Late in the fourth century.

Therefore, the NT canon could not have closed in 95 AD, as it did not exist in any form until 170 AD. Which at that time did not include Hebrews, James, 1 and 2 Peter, and 3 John.

The Righterzpen said:

What do we know of church fathers prior to 300 AD though?

These fellows apparently believed in eternal wrath; for it's very evident in what they write.

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As I said earlier, there are three doctrinal positions in reference to the final judgment. Universalism is not a new concept. It was the prevailing view in the early church, as I understand it.

Daniel C said:

I will not let people make false statements and then just skip past them as if it's truth,like this falsehood:





These are just words you're saying and they are false. I challenge you to support your original statement that Gods grace doesn't vary.

If you can't just admit,we will see the lack of scripture in the reply anyway.

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Titus 2:11
"For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men"

Romans 2:11
"For there is no respect of persons with God."

Acts 10:34
"Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:"

Acts 15:9
"And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith."

Plus the scriptures already provided (which you ignore, for some weird reason) are enough to show my point. God's grace is the same for everyone. There is no one who is so depraved that they are beyond God's grace. His grace does not vary from person to person but his salvation is for all who would come in faith.

I can't believe you accuse me of never replying with scripture when I have continued to do so, asked you questions about scripture, and you haven't answered. What about my questions around Ephesians 2? How about you answer those?

The Righterzpen said:

Why would people be condemned to the lake of fire if it has nothing to do with their sin? If they are there to be purged; what are they there to be purged from?

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Being purged is not the payment for sin, it is a consequence for not receiving the atonement. The atonement was for everyone.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

The Righterzpen said:

You have access to interlinear Bibles. You can go look this up. You admit yourself that your theology isn't consistent; because "eternal life" doesn't actually mean "eternal life" either.

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It wasn't only the translation that was messed with. The vocabulary and lexicon definitions were meddled with as well. In some cases looking up the meaning of the Greek leads to a biased definition. Augustine made sure of this, as I understand it.

The Righterzpen said:

So you believe the new heavens and new earth will not be "without end". What would be the point in creating something to redeem that comes to an end at some point anyways? That makes no sense either.

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It's actually good news.
From a humorous perspective, we'll all get tired of sitting on clouds strumming harps. We'll be ready for something new. More ages will follow. Rather than one continuous endless age. As I understand it.

The Righterzpen said:

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even
His eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

This is different than "the wrath of God is revealed from heaven".

So yes, the witness of creation does testify to the eternal redemption plan as well as the wrath of God. What do you think spring is about? Why do things "come back to life" in the spring? That wasn't an accident.

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Sorry. As inspiring as the Springtime is, there is no gospel message in it. At least not to those who have never heard the gospel. To what would they respond? A flower, a bird, warm sunshine? To do what?

The Righterzpen said:

Out of the mouth of 2 or 3 witnesses let all things be established.
Witness #1 - human conscience
Witness #2 - the creation
witness #3 - the written scripture.

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So you agree that those without the law in Rom.2:14-15 are saved? Progress.
What about the basis for salvation in Matt.25 ???

The Righterzpen said:

This doesn't include those who don't believe.

This shocks me; how long have you believed this universal atonement doctrine now?

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Those under the earth that confess Jesus as Lord are believers when they do. And not before.

I have been in the Universalist camp for only a few months. It was only a matter of weeks before I could see MAJOR problems with Damnationism. Especially what it claims about our loving Father.

I would rather be a Universalist and be wrong than a Damnationist and be wrong.

Do we disagree on the basic points of the faith? (I don't think so)

Daniel C said:

And this is why I prefer to stay on point rather than go off topic.

The subject was Romans 1 and several pages on we have now drifted into the topic of universalism,which is completely different matter.

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Don't blame us. You have been fueling the discussion as well. You should thank us for all the views we are bring you. This was a ghost town before we showed up.

Daniel C said:

This does not say Gods Grace does not varies.

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Are you wanting a verse to say "God's grace does not vary" like a verse that says "God is a trinity?"

And, I see (again) no answers to my questions posed in Ephesians.

I'm beginning to think you're just being a troll bro.