Why celibate bishops are a big deal?

GingerBeer

Cool and refreshing with a kick!
Mar 26, 2017
3,511
1,348
Australia
✟119,825.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God’s church?
So anyone with unruly children, a wayward family life, is not fit to govern in a congregation of dozens to hundreds of people. I do not quite see "An elder or bishop MUST HAVE ONE WIFE AND CHILDREN who are obedient, orderly, and Christian" but if that's a rule that you want in your church then fine.
 
Upvote 0

Anguspure

Kaitiaki Peacemakers NZ
Supporter
Jun 28, 2011
3,865
1,769
New Zealand
✟125,935.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
So anyone with unruly children, a wayward family life, is not fit to govern in a congregation of dozens to hundreds of people. I do not quite see "An elder or bishop MUST HAVE ONE WIFE AND CHILDREN who are obedient, orderly, and Christian" but if that's a rule that you want in your church then fine.
It is something that the Apostle Paul saw as good guidance, and I see no reason why it should not serve as a principle for the Church today.
 
Upvote 0

GingerBeer

Cool and refreshing with a kick!
Mar 26, 2017
3,511
1,348
Australia
✟119,825.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
It is something that the Apostle Paul saw as good guidance, and I see no reason why it should not serve as a principle for the Church today.
It does, for married priests. But the topic is about celibate priests.
 
Upvote 0

Anguspure

Kaitiaki Peacemakers NZ
Supporter
Jun 28, 2011
3,865
1,769
New Zealand
✟125,935.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
It does, for married priests. But the topic is about celibate priests.
All of us who have direct communication with God are Priests, and our guidance is clear. But Deacons of the Church and Bishops carry a particular responsibility that should not be undertaken without the experience and training given by the raising of good family.
 
Upvote 0

Paidiske

Clara bonam audax
Supporter
Apr 25, 2016
34,110
19,005
43
Albury, Australia
Visit site
✟1,473,140.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
All of us who have direct communication with God are Priests, and our guidance is clear. But Deacons of the Church and Bishops carry a particular responsibility that should not be undertaken without the experience and training given by the raising of good family.

Most churches rather take Paul's meaning to be urging faithful monogamy for the married, rather than insisting on marriage.

And I would say that we need to leave room for the sovereignty of God; if God calls an unmarried person (or indeed an infertile person) to ministry, we need to be flexible enough to discern and honour that call.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: kiwimac
Upvote 0

Anguspure

Kaitiaki Peacemakers NZ
Supporter
Jun 28, 2011
3,865
1,769
New Zealand
✟125,935.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Most churches rather take Paul's meaning to be urging faithful monogamy for the married, rather than insisting on marriage.

And I would say that we need to leave room for the sovereignty of God; if God calls an unmarried person (or indeed an infertile person) to ministry, we need to be flexible enough to discern and honour that call.
I agree, it is guidance not dogma, and certainly there are people who have that calling.
It does amaze me, however, that we concentrate more on achademic performance than on demonstrated life skills and heart atitude when we select church leaders.
Even in my field a qualification means little if one is not sufficiently experienced and demonstrably able to manage men and machinery in accordance with good seamanship.
When this principle is neglected we end up with often deadly incidents. How often have we allowed the same in the Church?
 
Upvote 0

GingerBeer

Cool and refreshing with a kick!
Mar 26, 2017
3,511
1,348
Australia
✟119,825.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
All of us who have direct communication with God are Priests, and our guidance is clear. But Deacons of the Church and Bishops carry a particular responsibility that should not be undertaken without the experience and training given by the raising of good family.
You think young men, under their mid 40s are excluded? Or are you contending that a man who is currently raising a family of children and whose abilities are not yet tested ought to be accepted as a priest?
 
Upvote 0

Anguspure

Kaitiaki Peacemakers NZ
Supporter
Jun 28, 2011
3,865
1,769
New Zealand
✟125,935.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
You think young men, under their mid 40s are excluded? Or are you contending that a man who is currently raising a family of children and whose abilities are not yet tested ought to be accepted as a priest?
As I have said, in my view we are a nation of priests. That many do not take their priesthood as believers of any age or marital status, seriously, is a tragedy.
On the other hand those who provide pastoral guidance and Christian leadership to the priests should be demostrably experienced and competent in the field. Paul as the question: "If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God’s church?"
 
Upvote 0

GingerBeer

Cool and refreshing with a kick!
Mar 26, 2017
3,511
1,348
Australia
✟119,825.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
As I have said, in my view we are a nation of priests. That many do not take their priesthood as believers of any age or marital status, seriously, is a tragedy.
On the other hand those who provide pastoral guidance and Christian leadership to the priests should be demostrably experienced and competent in the field. Paul as the question: "If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God’s church?"
Obviously we're not all priests in Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican, and other churches. It is priests in those churches that are under discussion.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Anguspure

Kaitiaki Peacemakers NZ
Supporter
Jun 28, 2011
3,865
1,769
New Zealand
✟125,935.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Obviously we're not all priests in Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican, and other churches. It is priests in those churches that are under discussion.
As a believer with direct communication with God, all believers are Priests to the world they live in whether they like it or not. We all have that responsibility in the Church, regardless of denomination or heirachical structure. So when you ask me whether a Priest (qualified in the Anglican/Catholic/Orthodox) should be celibate, I would give you Pauls guidance to the Corinthians that it is better to remain in the state in which you were called, and that singleness may carry advantages (if the person has a gift for it).
On the other hand a Priest who burns with passion is a disaster waiting to happen and he/she should marry.
But the thread concerns Bishops, and while I recognise in the aforementioned traditions these are promoted from the clerical priesthood, I do not think (In agreement with Paul) that anybody should hold that position, irregardless of what we call it in any denomination without a demonstrable competence at a level that is most easily demonstrated by the raising of a good and well behaved family.
 
Upvote 0

Paidiske

Clara bonam audax
Supporter
Apr 25, 2016
34,110
19,005
43
Albury, Australia
Visit site
✟1,473,140.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
I agree, it is guidance not dogma, and certainly there are people who have that calling.
It does amaze me, however, that we concentrate more on achademic performance than on demonstrated life skills and heart atitude when we select church leaders.
Even in my field a qualification means little if one is not sufficiently experienced and demonstrably able to manage men and machinery in accordance with good seamanship.
When this principle is neglected we end up with often deadly incidents. How often have we allowed the same in the Church?

That's not really my experience, to be honest. While my church requires the academic qualifications, they are by no means considered sufficient by themselves, and plenty of people with the academic performance are turned away.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: Anguspure
Upvote 0

Anguspure

Kaitiaki Peacemakers NZ
Supporter
Jun 28, 2011
3,865
1,769
New Zealand
✟125,935.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
That's not really my experience, to be honest. While my church requires the academic qualifications, they are by no means considered sufficient by themselves, and plenty of people with the academic performance are turned away.
Actually my experience with the Anglican tradition (there is a bit of a family connection from my late Grandmother that seems to continue) would be the same. The people they put in responsible positions tend to be really great people. The local Rev. here is a beautiful and competent man with an awesome family, who I have been honored to meet a few times over coffee.
 
  • Friendly
Reactions: Paidiske
Upvote 0

GingerBeer

Cool and refreshing with a kick!
Mar 26, 2017
3,511
1,348
Australia
✟119,825.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
all believers are Priests to the world they live in whether they like it or not.
All believers are not priests within the church for the edification and spiritual guidance of Christian people inside the church. Just translate "priest" to "elder" in my posts because that is in fact what an priest within the church is. Priest is a Germanic word, it does not always mean the same thing as heirarch (the other word translated a priest in the scriptures).
 
Upvote 0

yeshuaslavejeff

simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
Jan 6, 2005
39,944
11,098
okie
✟214,996.00
Faith
Anabaptist
Why didn't the Lord get married especially when rabbis got married? Because of the Kingdom! And if you read the Gospels, it says that the Apostles left wives and children for God.
They also made sure their wives and children were cared for, their needs met.
Some other so-called 'ministers' whether recently or longer ago
may have abandoned their responsibility for their family , not fulfilling properly
their duties to their families.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

kiwimac

Bishop of the See of Aotearoa ROCCNZ;Theologian
Supporter
May 14, 2002
14,985
1,519
63
New Zealand
Visit site
✟590,115.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Utrecht
Marital Status
Married
Politics
AU-Greens
Jesus wasnt married or had children or brothers and sisters. If he did then he wouldnt have left His mother to the care of John.

Except the NT clearly says he had brothers and sisters and I consider there is sufficient circumstantial evidence for ME to consider he may have been married.
 
Upvote 0

Lost4words

Jesus I Trust In You
Supporter
May 19, 2018
10,943
11,698
Neath
✟1,002,191.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Except the NT clearly says he had brothers and sisters and I consider there is sufficient circumstantial evidence for ME to consider he may have been married.

Brother and sister in Jesus's time was also used in a much wider context than just siblings. Nothing in scripture says that Mary bore any more children.

If Jesus did indeed have siblings then He wouldnt give His mother into the care of a non family member.

St Paul referred to Mark as his son. Do you actually think it was his biological son?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Strong in Him

Great is thy faithfulness
Supporter
Mar 4, 2005
27,767
7,913
NW England
✟1,041,298.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Brother and sister in Jesus's time was also used in a much wider context than just siblings. Nothing in scripture says that Mary bore any more children.

Nothing in Scripture says that she didn't.
Mark 6:3 - isn't this Mary's son, the brother of James, Joseph, Judas and Simon? Aren't his sisters here with us?
Matthew 12:47 - your mother and brothers are standing outside.
Luke 2:7 - she gave birth to her firstborn [note, not only child]; a son.

If Jesus did indeed have siblings then He wouldnt give His mother into the care of a non family member.

None of them were at the cross.

St Paul referred to Mark as his son. Do you actually think it was his biological son?

No, but that is not proof that Jesus did not have brothers and sisters.
Acts refers to Paul's nephew, Acts of the Apostles 23:16, and in Luke's Gospel, the angel calls Elizabeth Mary's relative, Luke 1:36; this is also used in Luke 1:58. Colossians 4:10 describes Mark as the cousin of Barnabas.
Do you think the Gospel writers would use the term "brother" when they actually meant some other relation?
 
  • Agree
Reactions: kiwimac
Upvote 0