Did the apostles and the early Church believe the Earth was flat?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Jipsah

Blood Drinker
Aug 17, 2005
12,390
3,703
70
Franklin, Tennessee
✟220,318.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
As for the ship going over the horizon scenario, you are completely wrong. When looking through binoculars or a telescope you simply get a bigger clearer image of a ship hull down over the horizon.
View attachment 264936
They know that, as does anyone who's ever spent any time on or near the sea. But they'l keep denying it to their dying breath. They're defending their religion, and if that means doing a little violence to the truth, so be it.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Anguspure
Upvote 0

Jipsah

Blood Drinker
Aug 17, 2005
12,390
3,703
70
Franklin, Tennessee
✟220,318.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
While you're waiting, maybe I can interest you in winning the big bucks in one of the many 'prove the globe earth challenges'.
BTW, wanna bet a megabuck that you can prove the earth flat? That's a bet I'd be happy to take.
 
Upvote 0

yeshuasavedme

Senior Veteran
May 31, 2004
12,811
777
✟97,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Prove it.
They can't. They. Just. Can't.
I do not believe the Word of God shows anything but that the globe of waters was created first, with no heavens stretched out from the earth, between the cut in two waters, and the Light right here, circling this globe from day 1 of creation week, and stretched out with the firmament of His powers on day 2 of creation week, between the divided/cut in two primal waters of this globe: but you are correct that the math used by those who make such statements as the distance of nearest "star" from earth cannot be proved by earth based math. The entire heavens were stretched out, with the light, from this globe, between the waters.

They are foolish and know nothing who make such statements as if they know it as truth.
The stars themselves will all fall to this same globe, right down from the heaven they are set in, at the end of this present age,
and then the "wisdom of men" will be shown, again, to be nothing.
Co 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
The entire creation was supernaturally created by a supernatural God by His supernatural Word and is upheld by the Same Supernatural Word who created all things in the beginning, when there was nothing, but Himself, in 3 Persons.
No heavens were "out there" on day 1 of creation week. Just a "firmament of His powers" and a globe of primal waters suspended in the same, and darkness. Then Light, brought out of the darkness, and the darkness and the light circling the globe, making one full Day in the completion of their circles from starting point and back to the same.
 
Upvote 0

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
37,420
26,863
Pacific Northwest
✟730,946.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
A pitiful testament to the power of satanic indoctrination.

Please don't blaspheme. God alone is to receive glory in and for His creation.

"You are the Lord, you alone. You have made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them; and you preserve all of them; and the host of heaven worships you." - Nehemiah 9:6

-CryptoLutheran
 
Upvote 0

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
37,420
26,863
Pacific Northwest
✟730,946.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
Got a copy of the court's ruling? I'd like to see what they said.

Flat Earther Nathan Roberts – SciManDan, why did your GLOBE lose in Court?

Basically the plaintiff didn't make a convincing case, and for the reason the court ruled against the plaintiff. The court did not rule in favor of either model--because that wasn't the case. The case was whether the plaintiff should be given the 15,000 dollars, to that end the plaintiff was unable to--using their evidences--demonstrate their case, and so lost.

However, given the sad desperation of flat earthers, it shouldn't be terribly surprising that they'd cling to anything, no matter how weak.

-CryptoLutheran
 
Upvote 0

yeshuasavedme

Senior Veteran
May 31, 2004
12,811
777
✟97,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Consider the Word.
In Genesis, we read the stars were set in the heavens that were stretched out from the earth, between the cut in two waters on day 2 of creation week.

In Matthew we read the stars will fall right back down out of the stretched out heaven.
Matthew 24:29
“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Mark 13:25 the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken.

Then there is the time in the Great Tribulation when the days will be cut short/cut off by one third of them;
12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

"There is no proof that the laws of physics are the same everywhere in the universe."

From our fishbowl life on this earth, we cannot measure anything "out there". God put it all there in one Day, when He stretched it all out from right here, "where we are", and it all will collapse when He elementally regenerates it in a moment, for the "New Beginning", which is typed in the millennial week and in the living oracle of the 8th day which God gave the namesake people of His own New Man name to rehearse til it is fulfilled.
 
Upvote 0

Oldmantook

Well-Known Member
Jan 10, 2017
3,633
1,526
64
USA
✟99,173.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
The word Isaiah would have used to describe a disc shaped world is "עֻגָּה" (uggah), whereas he used the word "חוּג" (chug) which means "vault" or "horizon".
Isaiah is not describing a flat earth.
I suggest you survey any number of English Bibles for in Isaiah 40:22, he used the word chug - which is translated as CIRCLE of the earth in just about every translation to describe the shape of the earth. By definition, a circle is two dimensional. Contrast that with a sphere which is three dimensional. If Isaiah under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit wished to describe the earth as a ball/sphere, he would have used the same word he used in Isa 22:18 "tossed thee like a ball...." which is "dur." He did not use dur in Isa 40:22 but chose to use chug instead. Thus the earth is described as flat circle instead of a round ball.

As for the ship going over the horizon scenario, you are completely wrong. When looking through binoculars or a telescope you simply get a bigger clearer image of a ship hull down over the horizon.
It's obvious that you have no awareness of the point being made. We have been taught/brainwashed that when a vessel "disappears" from shore as it heads out to sea, it is going over the horizon caused by the spherical earth. Nothing could be further from the truth. Our naked eye perceives it as "disappearing" over the horizon but a good pair of binoculars or zoom camera brings the vessel back into view again. This is one the easiest empirical observations to disprove the lie of the spherical earth.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

prodromos

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Nov 28, 2003
21,539
12,089
58
Sydney, Straya
✟1,177,012.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
We have been taught/brainwashed that when a vessel "disappears" from shore as it heads out to sea, it is going over the horizon caused by the spherical earth.
That's a false assumption on your part.
Nothing could be further from the truth. Our naked eye perceives it as "disappearing" over the horizon but a good pair of binoculars or zoom camera brings the vessel back into view again.
No it doesn't. I own both a telescope and binoculars and have observed ships disappearing over the horizon many times. What you claim is utterly false.
This is one the easiest empirical observations to disprove the lie of the spherical earth.
Quite the opposite in fact.

When we get some clear skies here in Sydney, I'm going to take some long exposure photographs of the southern night sky. If the earth is flat as you claim, the stars will form parallel, straight streaks of light from east to west across the night sky. If the earth is a globe, the stars will form streaks of concentric arcs around the celestial south pole, exactly the same as a photo of the northern night sky does around polaris, just rotating in the opposite direction.
You will no doubt claim it is due to the magical aether or dome distortion or something something because something. Your mind is closed and locked and you have thrown away the key,
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Oldmantook

Well-Known Member
Jan 10, 2017
3,633
1,526
64
USA
✟99,173.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Simple, it doesn't. The subject never comes up.
It never comes up because the scriptures predate Coppernicus.

Because it doesn't do that either. Have y'all ever actually read the Bible?
Of course I have but I have strong doubts that you have. Or if you did, you simply pick and choose what to believe and not to believe.

Hogwash, much repeated, is still hogwash.
Hogwash indeed is the heliocentric model invented by the imaginations of men.

Of course. Where else can you find the Pythagorian Theorem or Ohm's Law?
In a math and science book?

Unless for some reason you need to know the Pythagorian Theorem or Ohm's Law, in which case you'll need another reference book or three. I have actually used both in the past, and was glad I wasn't required to get that information from Scripture. I also had to find out how to code a Fourier Transform in 8088 Assembly Language once, and I searched the Bible for it in vain. (As it turned out, I didn't find it anywhere else, either, so I had to do it from scratch, which was an exercise in misery. It worked, though, but we didn't have enough processor bandwidth to run it concurrently with our primary task, so we had to come up with a Plan B, which got the job done with the bandwidth we had available.
Last time I checked, you don't need the Pythagorean Theorem (I suggest you correct your spelling) or Ohm's Law to live the Christian life. Scripture is sufficient for that as it doesn't address your hobby.

But happily, it isn't flat. God is the original engineer, and designed the cosmos with an elegance that no human could ever match. Makes the notions of geocentric universe that people contrive look like a Rube Goldberg cartoon Contest: Rube Goldberg Devices.
And I suppose that is why none other than Wernher von Braun had his grave stone engraved citing Psalm 19:1 "The heavens declare the glory of God; And the firmament shows His handiwork."
 
Upvote 0

Oldmantook

Well-Known Member
Jan 10, 2017
3,633
1,526
64
USA
✟99,173.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
That's a false assumption on your part.
How so? Haven't you been taught that ships disappear over the horizon?

No it doesn't. I own both a telescope and binoculars and have observed ships disappearing over the horizon many times. What you claim is utterly false.
I surmise you are not aware of the rules of perspective are you? What comes into play is not going over the horizon but the operation of the vanishing point including atmospheric conditions which cause your object to disappear from your view finder.

When we get some clear skies here in Sydney, I'm going to take some long exposure photographs of the southern night sky. If the earth is flat as you claim, the stars will form parallel, straight streaks of light from east to west across the night sky. If the earth is a globe, the stars will form streaks of concentric arcs around the celestial south pole, exactly the same as a photo of the northern night sky does around polaris, just rotating in the opposite direction.
You will no doubt claim it is due to the magical aether or dome distortion or something something because something. Your mind is closed and locked and you have thrown away the key,
The same can be said for you as your mind is intractable. You presume that humans have always perceived the earth as round forgetting that up until the time of Copernicus, most believed the earth was flat. In fact the Hebrews whom God used to reveal His truth as His chosen people believed in a flat earth covered by a solid domed firmament. The link to this article is not written by a flat-earther but provides a balanced critique of what the Hebrews believed to be true regarding our cosmology.
The Flat-Earth Bible.

Moreover, it is not only the ancient Hebrews that believed in a solid domed firmament but scientists have discovered a "glass wall in space."
The Flat-Earth Bible.
 
Upvote 0

prodromos

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Nov 28, 2003
21,539
12,089
58
Sydney, Straya
✟1,177,012.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
How so? Haven't you been taught that ships disappear over the horizon?
I learnt it through observation.
I surmise you are not aware of the rules of perspective are you?
You surmise wrong.
What comes into play is not going over the horizon but the operation of the vanishing point including atmospheric conditions which cause your object to disappear from your view finder.
That would be flerspective, which has only a passing similarity with perspective.
The same can be said for you as your mind is intractable. You presume that humans have always perceived the earth as round forgetting that up until the time of Copernicus, most believed the earth was flat.
Yet another false assumption about me. Most people did not care one way or the other since they lived all their lives in the same place and never experienced much beyond the distance they could see. In that small frame of reference their experience of their environment would very much resemble a flat earth.
In fact the Hebrews whom God used to reveal His truth as His chosen people believed in a flat earth covered by a solid domed firmament. The link to this article is not written by a flat-earther but provides a balanced critique of what the Hebrews believed to be true regarding our cosmology.
The Flat-Earth Bible.

Moreover, it is not only the ancient Hebrews that believed in a solid domed firmament but scientists have discovered a "glass wall in space."
The Flat-Earth Bible.
I found nothing in your link about scientists discovering a "glass wall" in space.
 
Upvote 0

Anguspure

Kaitiaki Peacemakers NZ
Site Supporter
Jun 28, 2011
3,865
1,769
New Zealand
✟125,935.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
They know that, as does anyone who's ever spent any time on or near the sea. But they'l keep denying it to their dying breath. They're defending their religion, and if that means doing a little violence to the truth, so be it.
Frankly, I find it fascinating.
But it also makes me understand a little why so many of my colleagues do not want a bar of a religion that seems to encourage such abherant views. If this sort of thing is seen as credible in the Church how on earth can any one be expected to take us seriously when we contend that God in the flesh rose from the dead?
 
Upvote 0

Anguspure

Kaitiaki Peacemakers NZ
Site Supporter
Jun 28, 2011
3,865
1,769
New Zealand
✟125,935.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I suggest you survey any number of English Bibles for in Isaiah 40:22, he used the word chug - which is translated as CIRCLE of the earth in just about every translation to describe the shape of the earth. By definition, a circle is two dimensional. Contrast that with a sphere which is three dimensional. If Isaiah under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit wished to describe the earth as a ball/sphere, he would have used the same word he used in Isa 22:18 "tossed thee like a ball...." which is "dur." He did not use dur in Isa 40:22 but chose to use chug instead. Thus the earth is described as flat circle instead of a round ball.
I know what translators have done, and it is common for them to translate in ways that obscure what is written.
It's obvious that you have no awareness of the point being made. We have been taught/brainwashed that when a vessel "disappears" from shore as it heads out to sea, it is going over the horizon caused by the spherical earth. Nothing could be further from the truth. Our naked eye perceives it as "disappearing" over the horizon but a good pair of binoculars or zoom camera brings the vessel back into view again. This is one the easiest empirical observations to disprove the lie of the spherical earth.
As a Master Mariner of 30 odd years experience I can tell you are quite unequivocally wrong. I live out there every day for 180 days a year and almost every day at some point I will pick up my binoculars to look at something on the horizon and then observe it approaching. Every single time you can see the vessel/object clearly and clearly with a part of it below the horizon. As it approaches the horizon more of it becomes visible until at the point just before it reaches the horizon it is fully in view.
Further to this if we move up or down on our ship we can make the object go up and down as well.
I have just taken my dog for a walk on the beach and I can see the tops of the hills of an island about 50 miles away that I have visited. I could can make out the contours of the hills in the good visibility we are getting I can also know full well that the bottom 3rd is sitting below the horizon out of view. According to your view I should be worried that the Island is sinking!
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Anguspure

Kaitiaki Peacemakers NZ
Site Supporter
Jun 28, 2011
3,865
1,769
New Zealand
✟125,935.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Much respect, sir.
Just trying to underline how often I have seen the curvature of the Earth. Probably somewhere in the region of 5000 times.
I guess that just makes me one of the grand poo baas of the Masonic conspiracy.
 
  • Like
Reactions: prodromos
Upvote 0

Oldmantook

Well-Known Member
Jan 10, 2017
3,633
1,526
64
USA
✟99,173.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I learnt it through observation.
Observation is excellent but does not always result in the correct conclusion.

That would be flerspective, which has only a passing similarity with perspective.
Flerspective - a coined term with no basis in fact used to detract from the flat earth argument.

Yet another false assumption about me. Most people did not care one way or the other since they lived all their lives in the same place and never experienced much beyond the distance they could see. In that small frame of reference their experience of their environment would very much resemble a flat earth.
The problem is their view of the earth coincides with how Scripture describes the earth, moon and stars. You choose to ignore it which of course is your prerogative.

I found nothing in your link about scientists discovering a "glass wall" in space.
Then perhaps you should read more carefully; more specifically the 5th paragraph:
“It’s almost like theses electrons are running into a glass wall in space,” said Baker, the study’s lead author. “Somewhat like the shields created by force fields on Star Trek that were used to repel alien weapons, we are seeing an invisible shield blocking these electrons. It’s an extremely puzzling phenomenon.

Not puzzling at all if you understand God's firmament.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

prodromos

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Nov 28, 2003
21,539
12,089
58
Sydney, Straya
✟1,177,012.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Observation is excellent but does not always result in the correct conclusion.
Exhibit A: Oldmantook
Then perhaps you should read more carefully; more specifically the 5th paragraph:
“It’s almost like theses electrons are running into a glass wall in space,” said Baker, the study’s lead author. “Somewhat like the shields created by force fields on Star Trek that were used to repel alien weapons, we are seeing an invisible shield blocking these electrons. It’s an extremely puzzling phenomenon.
Perhaps you meant to put another link? The link in your post does not have the above text anywhere.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.