Long Term Doubt vs Strong Belief - what is more honest?

BigV

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So, are you thinking that honesty alone, in any epistemological endeavor, is good enough to move any mode of inquiry forward and to imply that it is being somehow done with full integrity?

to me, truth is paramount. And I’m being honest when I say that
 
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BigV

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The imaginary number "i" required faith (at first), but when you plug it into your math, it works. It is a staple of electrical engineering. It is the difference between a priori and a posteriori reasoning.
Believing imaginary things works for some people too. Does not make their imaginary things real or true
 
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Sabertooth

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Believing imaginary things works for some people too. Does not make their imaginary things real or true
Nice comeback, but did you really process what I said typed?

Can you buy i apples at the grocery store? How about (4 + 3i) apples??
~~~~~~~~~~~~~​
We have a running gag at our house that, if Jeopardy ever had three mathematicians as contestants, their scores would be π (pi), e & i...!
 
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BigV

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If I or God sought to satisfy your terms. That isn't going to happen.

Same can be said about any other imaginary Deity. Believe in Thor or perish.

But is this an honest approach?

also, I’ll probably disappoint you here but a Christian God made himself easily disprovable.


For example, Jesus said in John 14:12 that if you believe you will do the works he did and even greater works.

John 14: 11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. 12 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father

this is testable and false
 
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Sabertooth

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Believe in Thor or perish.

But is this an honest approach?
  1. Your destiny (whatever it is) remains unchanged in your disbelief.
  2. Believing in the wrong model will not improve on #1.
  3. Discerning the most correct model (if it/He offers a beneficial outcome) is the only way to beat bad consequences (if they are bad by default). But the onus is on you to seek out which is the most correct. If you would hide behind "There are too many choices out there...," you will remain at #1 (due to Analysis Paralysis).
[The Hebrew] God does not condemn anyone for disregarding His message. His message is that we are already condemned in our default state, but He has prepared a Way out.

You won't end up in Hell because you didn't kowtow to human Christians. It will be because you didn't take, look for or even acknowledge the existence of the Exit Ramp.
 
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BigV

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The Hebrew] God does not condemn anyone for disregarding His message. His message is that we are already condemned in our default state, but He has prepared a Way out.

You won't end up in Hell because you didn't kowtow to human Christians. It will be because you didn't take, look for or even acknowledge the existence of the Exit Ramp.

Are you from the North Korea? Sounds like their propaganda. Dear leader is the best and go to labor camp if disagree
 
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Sabertooth

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Dear leader is the best and go to labor camp if disagree
I'm not going to send you anywhere. My mission is to announce that Hell doesn't have to be a foregone conclusion.

You are the one resorting to propaganda if you would turn "There is a way out of your default trajectory!" into "...go to labor camp if disagree."

It further exhibits the paradigmatic gap that I alluded to in post #23 (assuming that you are not just being a troll...).
 
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Silmarien

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fair enough. The knowledge could take a longer or shorter time to appear. The point is science refines itself and betters itself. The fact that there are no scientific facts is a plus because we realize the uncertainties and make predictions and assumptions based on this.

I agree that it's a plus, but it does mean that there is no guarantee that everything that we consider to be scientifically sound today would be considered as such in a culture a thousand years from now. Their models could be either better or worse than our own.

Religious texts are nothing like the science! They, in some cases, are hallucinations and “revelations”! They require FAITH!

Yes, the nature of revelation is such that it does need to be taken on faith, at least at a certain point. I don't see anything dishonest about doing so.

If you care about truth and have a problem with science on what basis does one come to religious belief as being true?

I never said I had a problem with science. What I have a problem with is trying to apply it to questions outside of its purview. Someone might as well proudly proclaim that they're not going to get married until they have scientific evidence that someone is the appropriate spouse for them. It makes no sense, and it's much more honest to just say you're not ready to get married than blaming your reluctance on science.

I realize you are not a believer but if you disagree with scientific methods of arriving at truth and facts, what do you have that’s better?

I never said that I disagreed with the scientific method. It is great for developing models of physical reality, but is somewhat limited in its scope. Start applying it to things like ethics and theology, and I'm going to quickly get skeptical. Claim that doing so makes you more honest, and I'm going to laugh.

I think if you're interested in truth, the best option is to have a fairly comprehensive understanding of intellectual history in general, which is much broader than simply the empirical sciences, though it would encompass them as well.
 
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Carl Emerson

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Do you believe with 100% certainty that Christianity is true?

I see the truth being confirmed again and again in reality.

You get to a point where you don't question anymore because of the weight of evidence.

Ones belief comes from faith and faith comes from Him evidencing Himself, so you have a choice to believe or not.
 
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Moral Orel

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I never said that I disagreed with the scientific method. It is great for developing models of physical reality, but is somewhat limited in its scope. Start applying it to things like ethics and theology, and I'm going to quickly get skeptical. Claim that doing so makes you more honest, and I'm going to laugh.
I thought you applied evolutionary theory to your ethics as a part of your moral realism.
 
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BigV

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I'm not going to send you anywhere. My mission is to announce that Hell doesn't have to be a foregone conclusion.

You are the one resorting to propaganda if you would turn "There is a way out of your default trajectory!" into "...go to labor camp if disagree."

It further exhibits the paradigmatic gap that I alluded to in post #23 (assuming that you are not just being a troll...).

Your mission is to announce what? Unproven assertion of the 1st-century hallucinators and anonymous authors? How do you know Hell even exists? You make mere assertions without any evidence.

And I'm the troll? I've responded to post #23 by stating that if you need to assume the truth of any fantastic claim, such as Santa Claus, Allah, etc.. that you would have to believe every other religion is true. I think you are the one trolling.
 
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Sabertooth

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Your mission is to announce what? Unproven assertion of the 1st-century hallucinators and anonymous authors? How do you know Hell even exists? You make mere assertions without any evidence.
And we are back to the three possibilities in post #45.
 
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BigV

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Yes, the nature of revelation is such that it does need to be taken on faith, at least at a certain point. I don't see anything dishonest about doing so.

But faith is the LEAST reliable means of getting to the truth, is it not? By faith, you can accept that I (BigV) am God! Is there anything you cannot accept as true based purely on faith?

And then, who is the more honest one, the one who uses scientific method to arrive at conclusions about reality or the one who uses faith?
 
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Silmarien

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I thought you applied evolutionary theory to your ethics as a part of your moral realism.

Νο. I do have some sympathies for the sort of Aristotelian virtue ethics that do encompass biological and psychological realities, but I've been becoming increasingly skeptical of it at the same time. I did talk about it a lot more a year or two ago than I would right now, though, you're right.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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to me, truth is paramount. And I’m being honest when I say that

For me, REALITY is paramount, truth is secondary, but still quite important. Of course, you'll have to forgive me if I tip my hat here and say that I'm definitely NOT a Foundationalist in my epistemological outlook and I have rather put most of my eggs in another philosophical basket. ;)
 
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Redac

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And I'm the troll? I've responded to post #23 by stating that if you need to assume the truth of any fantastic claim, such as Santa Claus, Allah, etc.. that you would have to believe every other religion is true. I think you are the one trolling.
You've asserted this, but you've yet to support your assertion.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Same can be said about any other imaginary Deity. Believe in Thor or perish.

But is this an honest approach?

also, I’ll probably disappoint you here but a Christian God made himself easily disprovable.


For example, Jesus said in John 14:12 that if you believe you will do the works he did and even greater works.

John 14: 11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. 12 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father

this is testable and false

Let me just say on behalf of my fellow friends here that for you to KNOW that you're indeed testing some aspect or statement of Scripture, you have to also "know" that your Hermeneutics are indeed also on par for grasping inherent meaning when handling whatever text you think your reading and interpreting.

So, let's say, we read John 14:12 and we look at the grammatical structure of the text, particularly in the two or three sets of the originating Greek texts underlying the English translation (or more aptly "approximated meaning"), it how we interpret then might make a difference in how we not only understand various terms and conceptual structures that are a part of the text, but also in how we choose to test and/or apply them.

I'm just offering you something to think about; maybe your church you went to when you were a Christian did a not so swell job of teaching the complexities of hermeneutics so..........you ended up forming interpretations that approximated on the lesser side of things the intended meaning of the author.
 
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BigV

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  • Your destiny (whatever it is) remains unchanged in your disbelief.
  • Believing in the wrong model will not improve on #1.
  • Discerning the most correct model (if it/He offers a beneficial outcome) is the only way to beat bad consequences (if they are bad by default). But the onus is on you to seek out which is the most correct. If you would hide behind "There are too many choices out there...," you will remain at #1 (due to Analysis Paralysis).

Well, I would point you to post #44 as a proof that a Christian Deity cannot be real.

But since you are not a Muslim, you are asking me to consider points that you yourself ignore. Islam, to my knowledge, also requires that you get your belief right and Allah hates idolaters, people who worship Jesus, a mere human, as a God, which would include most Christians.
 
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Silmarien

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But faith is the LEAST reliable means of getting to the truth, is it not? By faith, you can accept that I (BigV) am God! Is there anything you cannot accept as true based purely on faith?

And then, who is the more honest one, the one who uses scientific method to arrive at conclusions about reality or the one who uses faith?

I would disagree that faith is the least reliable means of arriving at the truth. I think the human condition is such that divine revelation is the only potential means by which we might arrive at anything approaching truth. The problem of subjectivity is simply too serious, so I actually think that any alleged divine revelation is a better bet than none.
 
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BigV

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Let me just say on behalf of my fellow friends here that for you to KNOW that your indeed testing some aspect of Scripture, you have to know that your Hermeneutics are indeed also on par when handling whatever text you think your reading and interpreting. So, let's say, we read John 14:12 and we look at the grammatical structure of the text, particularly in the two or three sets of the originating Greek texts underlying the English translation (or more aptly "approximated meaning") then it might make a difference how we understand various terms and conceptual structures that are a part of the text.

LOL. Basically you know, through Hermeneutics, that the text doesn't mean what it says?

Matthew 17:20 ... for truly I say to you, if you have faith the size of a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move, and nothing will be impossible to you.

Christian Hermeneutic? Jesus means that lots of things will remain impossible to you no matter how big is your faith.

Am I right?

With John 14:12 I have purposely provided a context, where Jesus pointed to his miracles as proof of his divinity, and the very next thing he says, is that whoever believes in him will do the same works. You need to interpret the text to mean anything other than what it says because it doesn't work if taken literally.

If John 14:12 doesn't work when taken literally, there is no reason to think John 3:16 works if taken literally. When you have false promises, nothing is certain.
 
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