The Reprobate Doctrine

The Righterzpen said:

Your presupposition here though does not address what Christ actually did. He either paid for sin or He didn't. If He didn't, we're all screwed!

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You'll see my response to this in post #180 above.
Yes! Jesus most certainly paid for our sins and the sins of the whole world.

Daniel C said:

Oh I knew you were looking toward a different end point when you said all the creation will be saved. This viewpoint is universalism and needs to reject many foundational Christian principles to work,like some I mentioned-Hell,preaching,rejecting Christ etc

How does your view get round my questions about the Bible Steven.

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Give me a short list of specific questions and I will do my best to answer them. Thanks.

Saint Steven said:

More great comments/questions. Thanks.

That's what we would expect from a translation bias, correct?
The doctrinal bias will be well-supported.

No. What we need to understand is that the atonement applied to the whole world.
And those who receive it will not be judged or in need of restoration.
That restoration is not self-payment, because Jesus already paid the price.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Romans 5:18
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Colossians 1:20
and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

1 Timothy 2:4
who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

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Do you want an explanation of these passages; or are you now set in what you believe?

Because basically what you've done is taken arminian "universal atonement" to the extreme.

Which essentially leads to the question of "is Jesus a liar". If everyone is universally atoned for; then why are the passages that speak of eternal wrath in the Scripture to begin with?

Even if you claim they are "mistranslations" there'd be no reason to put them in the Scripture if everyone is atoned for.

And on top of this, is the legal question of what does atonement constitute?

If you believe Christ paid for every human beings sin; then He paid for all of them and there'd be no justification to send anyone to hell; regardless of what they did; believed or didn't believe.

So.... why would some endure a certain amount of time in hell when other's don't?

That's not internally consistent either.

Daniel C said:

Why can't Gods Grace vary? Show me scripture to prove this.

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I think it would help to answer the questions I posed around Ephesians 2 in the previous post.

Daniel C said:

You made a claim that Gods Grace does not vary.

Can you prove that from scripture?

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Why do you seem to avoid questions posed to you so often?

My claim of God's grace not varying is in the context of our conversation, which is about soteriology. Before I could answer I would need to know if you're extending 'grace' further than soteriology - i.e. to means of grace? If so, that is a different conversation, and there we encounter 'varied grace'. But that is not soteriology.

There is prevenient grace, common grace, special grace, irresistible grace - these are well-known theological terms. The context of our discussion is most surely grace as defined as 'unmerited favor'. And therefore, unmerited favor means that people don't deserve it, and none of us deserved God's grace, do we?

And that's my point. Unmerited favor can't be 'varied'. The mere definition shows that to be true. If it's varied, then it is deserved by some and undeserved by others. We were all sinners before coming to Christ and were depraved. That's exactly what Ephesians 2 is saying - if you read it, you can't avoid that's exactly what it is saying. Remember, Romans 2:11 says "For there is no respect of persons with God." God shows no partiality!

"Which essentially leads to the question of "is Jesus a liar". If everyone is universally atoned for; then why are the passages that speak of eternal wrath in the Scripture to begin with?"

Search query= "eternal wrath".

Not found.

Please modify your query and try again.

FineLinen said:

"Which essentially leads to the question of "is Jesus a liar". If everyone is universally atoned for; then why are the passages that speak of eternal wrath in the Scripture to begin with?"

Search query= "eternal wrath".

Not found.

Please modify your query and try again.

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Already gave a whole bunch of Scriptures on it in this thread. Do you want them again?

The Righterzpen said:

Already gave a whole bunch of Scriptures on it in this thread. Do you want them again?

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Dear Right: Do not provide a wall of Scriptures! Show us ONE (1) passage of Canon that speaks of "eternal wrath". Perhaps after that futile effort you can present the only One who is eternal in Scripture. He is the Aidios God.

"The steadfast love of the LORD never ceases; his mercies never come to an end; they are new every morning great is Your faithfulness."

The Righterzpen said:

Do you want an explanation of these passages; or are you now set in what you believe?

Because basically what you've done is taken arminian "universal atonement" to the extreme.

Which essentially leads to the question of "is Jesus a liar". If everyone is universally atoned for; then why are the passages that speak of eternal wrath in the Scripture to begin with?

Even if you claim they are "mistranslations" there'd be no reason to put them in the Scripture if everyone is atoned for.

And on top of this, is the legal question of what does atonement constitute?

If you believe Christ paid for every human beings sin; then He paid for all of them and there'd be no justification to send anyone to hell; regardless of what they did; believed or didn't believe.

So.... why would some endure a certain amount of time in hell when other's don't?

That's not internally consistent either.

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No matter which doctrinal position of the final judgment one chooses, the atonement still has to be received for one to be saved. For those that we call "the elect", this happens before physical death. (like those Christ preached to for three days before his resurrection) For all others, this happens after physical death. For those saved after physical death, they have to endure the wrath of God.

For this reason I put less weight on predestination and more weight on a free-will decision. And I believe that those who have never heard of Christ may be treated the same as those in the realm of the dead that Christ preached to before his resurrection. When he "led captivity captive".

I still believe that those of us who are believers are positionally different than those who do not believe. Having crossed over from death to life we will not be judged in the same way.

John 5:24 NIV
“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 5:24 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
24 `Verily, verily, I say to you -- He who is hearing my word, and is believing Him who sent me, hath life age-during, and to judgment he doth not come, but hath passed out of the death to the life.

Daniel C said:

Why did Christ say this if all people will be saved regardless of whether they believe or not:

"And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature."

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I'm not claiming that anyone will be saved that does not believe.

How many times have I told you that every knee will bow and every tongue confess Jesus Christ as Lord? This cannot be done except through the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit. Do you believe that those with the indwelling Holy Spirit are saved?

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Daniel C said:

So you're saying in the end all will believe and therefore will be saved that way?

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Yes. God's ultimate plan is the restoration of all creation.
This cannot be accomplished if 90 percent (the narrow way theory) of all humanity is burning in the Lake of Fire with no hope of escape. Even believers with no works will escape through the flames. What does that tell you?

1 Corinthians 3:12-15
If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

Daniel C said:

No I don't believe everyone will be saved. If that be the case, why did Christ preach more on Hell then any other Biblical figure,was he just playing?

Why did he commission his believers to preach the Gospel to save the lost? That would be pointless if everyone is saved in the end.

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Jesus warned about the fire because it is very unpleasant. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Luke 16:22-24, 27-28
22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’ ...
27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

Daniel C said:

Even if you do believe all will be saved in the end the questions still remain: Why the great commission? Why did Christ preach on Hell?

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I already answered the question about why Christ warned about the fire. (hell is actually a the term for a Norse pagan concept of the afterlife)

The Great Commission is to make disciples. Are you making disciples?

I still believe that everyone should exercise their free-will to choose to follow Jesus Christ and receive the gift of spiritual life.