The Reprobate Doctrine

Daniel C said:

In regard to your two parables:

1)The parable is about sheep. A reprobate is a human being,rejected by God. Not a farm animal.

2)It never says the son is reprobate,also do you think the lost son was dead?

Luke
31 And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine.
32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

Are you taking the words of this parable literally and think the son was dead? If not, why take the rest of this parable literally?

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Wow. That's a ridiculous response.

Daniel C said:

Because it defeats your false theory about the reprobate doctrine?

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As a bystander to this conversation (since I was told I no longer could take part some time ago as I had a different opinion to the OP), I'd second that your response was quite ridiculous.

This thread has proved again and again that the "reprobate doctrine" is nonsense and unqualifiable biblically. Steven is doing a good job of punching holes in it, but to be honest it really doesn't need much work to disprove it. Unless you're able to support it with supporting scripture. Romans 1 certainly does not say what you claim it says, because Romans 2 qualifies what is being said, and do does Romans 3. In all three chapters, the point is that even the furthest from God and the most rebellious can be saved, because Jesus is that powerful and His death and resurrection that effective.

Daniel C said:

**Votes are anonymous **


Who here believes in the reprobate doctrine?

For those who don't know,the reprobate doctrine states that the creation (Mankind) can be cut-off from Gods grace before a persons physical death,so we do not have until our last breath on earth to reconcile with God and be born again,we can be given over to a reprobate mind and rejected by God whilst still alive. The reason for this is being enemies of God or ''Haters of God'' as defined in Romans 1. Also, there seems to be a link between being a reprobate and homosexual:


Romans 1
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.




Thoughts?

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I don’t think their actions are the result of God giving them up to reprobate or cutting them off from grace. God simply allows us to walk the path we choose and all will be judged accordingly.

Daniel C said:

Well every non believer I speak to thinks every person on earth can be saved and has until they die to believe.

This doctrine of God says otherwise. It makes sense for the creator to have a system whereby he can cut people loose who despise him.

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All have despised God in thier life. No one is born a Christian and all have rebelled against Him. If what you say is true then no one would come to believe later in their life after having rejected God and lived a life of sin for the majority of their life. If what your saying is true I would never have been able to become a servant of God at 38 years old.

Daniel C said:

I actually agree. I don't think God makes a person act that way, I think they act that way, God sees that and then rejects them.

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But still people of all ages accept Christ and are saved after living a lifestyle of sin.

Daniel C said:

See I knew you come just to argue for the sake of it.

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No actually I came to defend Our Heavenly Father of being accused of being responsible for those who will burn in the lake of fire. If God were to cut off those who have rebelled against Him not a single person would ever come to Christ. I believe 2 Peter 3:9 is evidence to support this.

Saint Steven said:

The word "eternal" is not in the Greek text of verse fourteen. (please confirm) The word used is zoe (life), with no adjective in the Greek. So, where did it come from? Good question. Compare the Young's Literal Translation below.

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You are correct that this verse does not mention "eternal damnation"; yet other verses do though. What this verse addresses, is that more people are unredeemed than are redeemed.

HELL - (being defined here as the condition of being under the wrath of God)

ETERNAL -
Mk 9:43
And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

Rev 14:10&11
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Revelation 20:10-15
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

(This is the final judgment of the unredeemed.)

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Psalm 9:5
Thou hast rebuked the heathen, thou hast destroyed the wicked, thou hast put out their name for ever and ever.

Saint Steven said:

I appreciate the work you did to think this through.
However, we need to bear in mind the fact that "God gave them over to a depraved mind..." Rom.1:28 (posted below) Therefore, the state that they find themselves in, though initiated at first by their own behavior, was accelerated when God cut them loose to their own devices. (a depraved/reprobate mind)

I believe the state of reprobation is intended to bring them to repentance. God never gives up on us. It seems you agree on that point. (thanks) Hopefully I haven't misunderstood you.

Romans 1:28
Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done.

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I think they'd always been "cut loose" ultimately. If one is not predestine unto election; the only possible outcome, on account of spiritual deadness is that they manifest the reprobateness of their state.

Does God remove His hand or restraint on some people? If it serves His purpose; (which it always does) yes. How many criminals go out in their perceived "blaze of glory" via "suicide by cop"? The elect have their appointed works to complete, while the unregenerate have their "appointed wrath" to "fill up" heaping coals upon their own heads.

To be given over to a reprobate mind; is probably just as simple as God removes His hand of restraint.

Saint Steven said:

Thanks. I'm well aware of the scriptures on both sides. However, I am seeing problems with the doctrine we all grew up with. And also the biased/corrupted Bibles we were given to work with.

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Can you explain why / where you are now coming to these conclusions? I've known you to be Scripturally quite sound. This "everyone is going to be saved" and "hell is not eternal" surprises me.

Saint Steven said:

Thanks. It seems that the conclusions being presented on this topic are conjectural at best. And there has been an effort to limit sources to bring to bear on it. Not sure why we haven't seen a broader discussion on this. I'm glad you have joined us. Thanks.

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Agreed; one should not delineate a doctrine based on one passage. (Although it happens all the time.) Usually, people put forth an effort to limit sources on a subject simply because they don't want to be wrong. We all need to be teachable; and I'm sure you realize, you've run into many people on CF who aren't!

BNR32FAN said:

No actually I came to defend Our Heavenly Father of being accused of being responsible for those who will burn in the lake of fire. If God were to cut off those who have rebelled against Him not a single person would ever come to Christ. I believe 2 Peter 3:9 is evidence to support this.

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Yep, none of us deserve mercy!

Daniel C said:

Well the reason why I didn't want to continue the dialogue with you is because you lumped all unsaved people in with reprobates as one group.

Steven also has strange ideas,like how all will be saved. I'm not surprised one bit you view his posts as credible.

As for my response to the parable being "ridiculous" I don't see why but again that's your opinion. Not really interested.

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Romans 2:1
"Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things."

The point of Romans 2 is that those who judge those in Romans 1 do the same things, and therefore actually comdemn themselves.

Then the clincher, in Roman 3:23 - "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;"

So yes, the group is the same - Rom 1 is specifically referring to mankind's dwindling into absolute darkness, Rom 2 and 3 tells us that we are all in the same boat - have drifted into absolute darkness. But then Rom 3 also tells us that we're justified freely by his grace through faith.

But your 'reprobate doctrine' seeks to set up some righteous Christian group who can boast about how they didn't reject God, as if they were somehow responsible for their salvation. Either you misunderstand or are misrepresenting badly the Calvinist doctrine of being reprobate, or you're being blinded by self-righteousness that refuses to see that Romans 1 is talking about you, and me, and Romans 2 is supposed to be used for interpreting what Paul is speaking about in Romans 1.

Was I reprobate before I came to Christ? Yes, of course. Would I continue to be reprobate if not for Christ? Yes, of course. Was I saved because I didn't go so far along as to make idols of reptiles or to live a homosexual life? No, of course not, I was saved because of Jesus and his grace. Nomatter how you cut it, the 'reprobate doctrine' you espouse distorts the gospel of Jesus Christ, which claims that Jesus died to save the filthiest, most disgusting, most twisted sinners alive, of which, like Paul says, I am the chief of them.

If you want to judge those in Romans 1 as worse than you, as if you are better than them, my only word to you is watch out - because "thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?" - Rom 2:3

The Righterzpen said:

You are correct that this verse does not mention "eternal damnation"; yet other verses do though. What this verse addresses, is that more people are unredeemed than are redeemed.

HELL - (being defined here as the condition of being under the wrath of God)

ETERNAL -
Mk 9:43
And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

Rev 14:10&11
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Revelation 20:10-15
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

(This is the final judgment of the unredeemed.)

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Psalm 9:5
Thou hast rebuked the heathen, thou hast destroyed the wicked, thou hast put out their name for ever and ever.

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Thanks for your detailed and thoughtful response.

Once again we are dealing with translation bias. But I suppose you could fault me for the same thing. Anyway... here is a translation I prefer for these passages.
The Greek rather than being translated to eternal, is translated to "age" or "ages" or "ages of the ages". Thus a period of time, rather than time without end. Unfortunately, that also applies to eternal life. (life age-during) The question becomes, to what end? Annihilation or restoration? I side with restoration.

Mark 9:43 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
43 `And if thy hand may cause thee to stumble, cut it off; it is better for thee maimed to enter into the life, than having the two hands, to go away to the gehenna, to the fire -- the unquenchable --

Revelation 14:10-11 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
10 he also shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, that hath been mingled unmixed in the cup of His anger, and he shall be tormented in fire and brimstone before the holy messengers, and before the Lamb,
11 and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages; and they have no rest day and night, who are bowing before the beast and his image, also if any doth receive the mark of his name.

Revelation 20:10-15 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
10 and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and Him who is sitting upon it, from whose face the earth and the heaven did flee away, and place was not found for them;
12 and I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and scrolls were opened, and another scroll was opened, which is that of the life, and the dead were judged out of the things written in the scrolls -- according to their works;
13 and the sea did give up those dead in it, and the death and the hades did give up the dead in them, and they were judged, each one according to their works;
14 and the death and the hades were cast to the lake of the fire -- this [is] the second death;
15 and if any one was not found written in the scroll of the life, he was cast to the lake of the fire.

Psalm 9:5 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
5 Thou hast rebuked nations, Thou hast destroyed the wicked, Their name Thou hast blotted out to the age and for ever.

Daniel C said:

See I knew you come just to argue for the sake of it.

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Aren't you the same person who said this?

Daniel C said:

I have no problem with no opposing views that's why I started this thread.

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Daniel C said:

Believe what you want.

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So, you don't believe 2Peter3:9 ???

2 Peter 3:9 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
9 the Lord is not slow in regard to the promise, as certain count slowness, but is long-suffering to us, not counselling any to be lost but all to pass on to reformation,