I'm spiritually burned out and feel like I'll end up in hell no matter what.

Oldmantook

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It is a religious lie to tell born again believers that sin separates us from God. He said he would never leave us nor forsake us.
Why do you only quote part of the verse and ignore or remain oblivious to its context? In doing so you eisegete the verse to simply suite your unwarranted belief. Heb 13:5 states "Keep your life free from love of money, and be content with what you have, for he has said, “I will never leave you nor forsake you.” In proper context this verse is not addressing the committal of sin. It addresses the love of money (which can be sinful) and instead to be contentment - because God Himself provides - as He will never leave nor forsake us.

This smacks of a works mentality and blesses Satan. The work of the cross is once and for all. Forgiveness is not earned by your confession and repentance, it is in the work of the cross only. Yet we do confess and repent, not to appease God, but to heal ourselves of our folly.
Why do you ignore Rom 3:25 and 2 Pet 3:10 which state that we were forgiven of our PAST sins - not present or future sins yet to be committed? Why do you ignore Paul's definition of the gospel message that he himself preached? "First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and then to the Gentiles, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and demonstrate their repentance by their deeds (Acts 26:20). Moreover, the Greek verb tenses in this verse are in the present tense indicating ongoing repentance and deeds/works which demonstrate repentance. You have to ignore a lot of Scripture in order to keep holding to your view but that's your prerogative.

The young woman who started this thread was in despair because of teachings like yours. What we say should be edifying, not condemning. Such doctrines as what you stated are doctrines of condemnation. There is therefore no condemnation for those in Christ.
Quite the contrary. The young women was in despair because she knew of the eternal consequences of sin and felt like giving up. I pointed out to her the difference between occasional sin which all do since no one is without sin and forgiveable upon repentance and habitual sin which is not forgivable since the continued practice of such sin demonstrates that one remains unrepentant and without such repentance there is no forgiveness.
Finally, you are prone to quoting from Scripture; taking it out of context by failing to quote the whole verse. Rom 8:1 states "There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit (NKJV). Christians who choose to walk in the flesh instead of the Spirit do not have the assurance of "no condemnation." Paul repeats this theme in v.4 - "in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
Thus there certainly is condemnation for believers who choose to walk in the flesh, contrary to what you have been taught and believe.
 
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AlexDTX

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In proper context this verse is not addressing the committal of sin. It addresses the love of money (which can be sinful) and instead to be contentment - because God Himself provides - as He will never leave nor forsake us.
Remember the writer of Hebrews used the verse out of context. He quoted Deuteronomy.

Deu 4:29 But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.
Deu 4:30 When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice;
Deu 4:31 (For the LORD thy God is a merciful God;) he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them.​

You are presuming that I have no regard for the consequences of sin. Perhaps you have read nothing else that I wrote. Every sin brings trouble, but the forgiveness of the Lord is always there for those who seek him with their whole hearts. You have placed your own eisegetic read into the Hebrew verses as well.

You have to ignore a lot of Scripture in order to keep holding to your view but that's your prerogative.

On the contrary, I consider the whole council of God. Nor do I read the Scriptures by my natural mind, but by the Spirit whom I have known for 33 years.

Quite the contrary. The young women was in despair because she knew of the eternal consequences of sin and felt like giving up. I pointed out to her the difference between occasional sin which all do since no one is without sin and forgiveable upon repentance and habitual sin which is not forgivable since the continued practice of such sin demonstrates that one remains unrepentant and without such repentance there is no forgiveness.

So, I take it, she responded to you expressing what great comfort she had received from your encouragement. I am glad to hear that.
 
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David Kent

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Not false. Incomplete. I did not take the time to look it up, but it was both.

2Ki_2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

Amazing how you ignored my point for a minor detail.
It was false. The chariot and horses separated Elijah and Elisha then Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
 
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LightLoveHope

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My point is simple.
Knowing Jesus and His heart is our security. We do not have to try or prove stuff, we need to listen, hear and follow. The profound part is we rise above rather than are brought out of. Sin fails because in reality it is just delusion and self pity.

Ironically the richest are those that know their future in Christ and what this means today.
 
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Hebrews 11:6: And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him

Must we believe something untrue? No, everything we must believe about God is true.

Romans 4:5: However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

No one is righteous of themselves, but through Jesus’s righteousness, death, and resurrection, us hell-deserving sinners can be counted as righteous. Just trust Jesus for it.

John 6:40: For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day

Step one: Look to Jesus

Step two: Trust in Him

Step three: Have eternal life

Step four: He raises you up at the last day

Step five: Live in the Kingdom of God, and glorify its King forever.
 
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Oldmantook

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Remember the writer of Hebrews used the verse out of context. He quoted Deuteronomy.
Given that ALL scripture is inspired by God per 2 Tim 3:16, I don't think it's possible for the writer of Hebrews to use the verse out of context. The writer of Hebrews was under the same inspiration of the Spirit as was Moses when he wrote Deuteronomy. Scripture cannot contradict itself so to claim that the verse in Hebrews is out of context when compared to its reference in Deuteronomy is not possible.

You are presuming that I have no regard for the consequences of sin. Perhaps you have read nothing else that I wrote. Every sin brings trouble, but the forgiveness of the Lord is always there for those who seek him with their whole hearts. You have placed your own eisegetic read into the Hebrew verses as well.
I understand that you do acknowledge consequences for sin. Only that you and I disagree what those consequences are as you believe a Christian is eternally secure whereas I don't subscribe to that belief. You believe all sin has been forgiven but I cited Rom 3:25 & 2 Pet 3:10 which plainly state that only our past sins are forgiven - no mention of present and future sins. In order to form our doctrinal beliefs, all Scripture must be reconciled with what we believe.

On the contrary, I consider the whole council of God. Nor do I read the Scriptures by my natural mind, but by the Spirit whom I have known for 33 years.
The same could be said for me, or anyone else. That is one of the reasons why we have a multitude of different denominations, some existing for a few centuries, depending on how each denomination interprets Scripture. They all can't be right.

So, I take it, she responded to you expressing what great comfort she had received from your encouragement. I am glad to hear that.
Actually, I'm not aware that she responded to my post at all. It is up to her to evaluate the validity of what I wrote as well as any other advice she has been given. The main thing is that we strive to edify one another as is possible even in the midst of our differences.
 
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theoneandonlypencil

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Hello everyone!

Once again, thank you all so much for the helpful replies<3

As for AlexTDX and Oldmantook, thank you both especially for your time and wisdom but I do not think the quibble is necessary. In Romans 14, I believe Paul has a lot to say about these kinds of quarrels over 'disputable matters'.

I might not be a theologian, but I think I have something for both of you.

First off, I think it's best to get one thing out of the way. Oldmantook, you say that sin can and does separate us from God. AlexTDX, you say that nothing can separate us from God, as he will never forsake us. I believe the real answer lies somewhere in the middle.

It is not the sin that condemns us--because we live in sin, all of us. That's why Jesus' sacrifice was needed to cover our sins. None of us will achieve total sanctification in this lifetime, and I think that one believer may die more 'sanctified' than the other in many cases. Does this disqualify those who have not reached the same level of holiness as another? No! Of course not.

What separates us from God is when we willingly sin without repentance or guilt. When we desire sin instead of righteousness, we are not living by God's will. I think the best analogy I've ever heard for the process of sanctification or being 'saved', is that when one is living by God's will, he isn't going to be sin-free. An unbeliever is naturally bent towards evil works of the flesh, as like his fallen nature, and will usually pick wrong over right in many cases. But a believer is naturally bent towards God's will and will choose to do right over wrong in most cases.

I also, because of this, believe there is a difference between habitual sin and practicing sin. Those who practice sin do it willingly and with no remorse; but for someone of God's will, habitual sin is more like a reoccurring obstacle. He falls to the same sin out of habit and will feel guilty and remorseful over his sin afterward, leading to repentance. A good example of a habitual sin would be someone with a very bad temper. Someone with a bad temper normally doesn't have the time to stop and think about what he's going to say--he simply says it as a natural reaction. And most good people will feel very bad afterward and repent. Do you think God abandons such people just because they're being tripped up on the same thing? Of course not.

Actually, I think 2 Corinthians 12 alludes to Paul himself having some sort of 'habitual sin';

" 6Even if I should choose to boast, I would not be a fool, because I would be speaking the truth. But I refrain, so no one will think more of me than is warranted by what I do or say, 7or because of these surpassingly great revelations. Therefore, in order to keep me from becoming conceited, I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. 8Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. 9But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.”Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me. 10That is why, for Christ’s sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong."

God himself assured Paul with the words 'My grace is sufficient for you'.


Now then...the 'works vs faith' part.

Once again, the answer lies in-between. I'm very surprised that Oldmantook didn't bring up James 2: 14-26 for his side of the argument deeming 'works' as a necessary part of the salvation package.

"14What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
18But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
20You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. 24You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.
25In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead."

What I find interesting here, is that a lot of people seem to equate 'deeds' or 'good works' to repentance, or lack of sin in their lives. Actually, if you take the greek word for works/deeds, ergon, the definitions are as follows;


1. business, employment, that which any one is occupied
a. that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking

2. any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind

3. an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work


We can also tell from what Peter is saying, that 'work' in the chapter's context is referring to taking care of others and providing for them. This is a common theme in the bible. 'Works', I'd imagine, probably also cover things such as Spreading the Gospel for example. Things that if someone asked, "what do you do for the kingdom?", you could respond honestly with your good works. This is also more than likely what Paul meant in Acts 26:20, saying "First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and then to the Gentiles, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and demonstrate their repentance by their deeds" I think from a theological standpoint, that assumption holds up. After all, even unbelievers can act 'good', but how many unbelievers are going to Spread the gospel, or take care and provide for believers and publicly take up the cross? Acting a certain way proves nothing, which is why works are needed alongside faith.

As for the 'Jesus only covered past sins, not present or future ones' argument, I'll have to kindly interject saying that doesn't make any sense. The verse you referred to in Romans 3 does use past tense to describe the atonement of sins, yes, but how else could it have been worded? Furthermore, if Jesus' sacrifice only covered the sins of those who came before him(And us), we'd all be going to hell. The truth is, salvation only covers repented sins. When you take up the cross, it covers all past sins AND future sins; because when you take up the cross, you are repenting from past sins. And as long as you repent in the future as you grow in spiritual maturity, you will also be covered.

All in all, I think 1 John 2 sums it up pretty well;

"18Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. 19They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
20But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth. 21I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth. 22Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son. 23No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
24As for you, see that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. 25And this is what he promised us—eternal life.
26I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. 27As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him."

Those who are in danger are ones who attend Church but have no real love for God and His son, who only wear their 'religion' as a badge and make no effort to walk our Savior's footsteps.

You can speculate forever on who is a 'real' Christian and who is a 'fake', but I personally think that the real evidence lies within the backsliders; those who backslide and turn away from the Lord were never truly saved, but those who backslide as much as they might but never give up on God and try with all of their might to follow his will and fight their sins(even if they might fail sometimes)are truly saved. Even if they aren't holy by our standards, we will never know them the way God knows them. All we can do is offer fellowship and guidance, and to rebuke them when they sin.

Anywho, sorry for the essay XD I've been reading and researching still a lot lately. If anything, these are a few things I've learned and I'm personally going to follow;
- Always read verses in-context
- Some things will only be between you and God, and nobody can judge you for these things(Romans 14 talks about this subject)
- Even the most holy and devout Christians are still just men and are prone to their own biases and sins
- Every Christian, I think, ought to take their pastor's guidance with a grain of salt(unless they're being rebuked for a certain sin)and learn as much about theology and scripture as they can for themselves


On a side note, can we please stop quoting single-verses to back up arguments? I don't know when this counter-productive practice began, but the verses were numbered to make it easier to find quotes to navigate the bible--not to build arguments from cherry-picked verses ;o; You should take them as full documents with paragraphs, as they were written. Verse-picking is dangerous to all sides and not advisable, imo.
 
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A_Thinker

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Here's the problem; no matter how far I believe I've come as a Christian, I still feel like I'll end up in hell and it's making me spiritually exhausted.
I know that I'm late to the party here, ... but let me assure you ... that someone who is working as hard as you are to get to heaven ... certainly won't miss heaven.

Nevertheless, it should a relief to you to know ... that as a follower of Christ, heaven is already your home.

Any work that you do ... is due to you're already being a child of God, ... not to earn your way in.

And ... welcome to our community ...
 
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LightLoveHope

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I know that I'm late to the party here, ... but let me assure you ... that someone who is working as hard as you are to get to heaven ... certainly won't miss heaven.

Nevertheless, it should a relief to you to know ... that as a follower of Christ, heaven is already your home.

Any work that you do ... is due to you're already being a child of God, ... not to earn your way in.

And ... welcome to our community ...

Jesus certainly encouraged people to desire with everything they are to see Gods will done on earth as it is in heaven.

I wonder if some separate this from getting into heaven, ie being part of the group.
It is possible to end up wanting to believe something is possible, but believing like many things in life one will never get there. Jesus did not dismiss people, but works with them, all the time. Knowing ones weaknesses and working and desiring to overcome and walk on, is not failure but our road to success.

Part of this walk is knowing we are always capable of failure and falling, but in Christ we can rise above. God bless you
 
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visionary

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I know that I'm late to the party here, ... but let me assure you ... that someone who is working as hard as you are to get to heaven ... certainly won't miss heaven.

Nevertheless, it should a relief to you to know ... that as a follower of Christ, heaven is already your home.

Any work that you do ... is due to you're already being a child of God, ... not to earn your way in.

And ... welcome to our community ...
While this is true, you are the only one who can drop out, either you are progressing to be more like Him, or digressing and slipping back into your old worldly ways of wickedness. But only you can tear yourself from His loving arms. Do not be deceived. God is faithful, be as faithful to Him as He is to you and you will be ok. Keep your eyes upon Him, in thoughts, in prayer constantly, and in actions. You have nothing to fear living in Him.
 
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