Bible's code of morality.

Emmylouwho

Well-Known Member
Sep 5, 2019
637
225
61
New York
✟16,125.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Widowed
Upvote 0

Tinker Grey

Wanderer
Supporter
Feb 6, 2002
11,213
5,604
Erewhon
Visit site
✟923,105.00
Faith
Atheist
Can you elaborate about that? Let us in on what “tu quoque” means? And how you meant it in this instance?
Tu quoque means "you, too". If someone challenges you on your actions and rather than explain yourself you respond "but you do it, too" you've committed a tu quoque fallacy.
 
Upvote 0

jayem

Naturalist
Jun 24, 2003
15,262
6,943
72
St. Louis, MO.
✟371,163.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Yeah, I can see something like "hugging one's wife with tender care (or vice versa)" as something that could be seen as a form of human depravity, especially 3000 years from now, don't you?

I can see by the year 5019, we can hug our wife without actually doing it. We'll all have sensors and stimulators implanted in our heads along with a quantum microcomputer and transmitter. We'll just think about hugging our wife. The sensors will input the pattern of neuronal activity associated with that thought to our implanted computer. Which will correctly decode it as an intention to hug our wife. This will be then transmitted to our wife's computer, which will stimulate the proper neuronal circuitry in her brain. Resulting in her feeling the sensation of a tender, loving hug.

Of course, it can also be done the old-fashioned way, too. :wave:
 
Upvote 0

2PhiloVoid

Yes, you're right! I'm not Gandalf!
Supporter
Oct 28, 2006
21,122
9,946
The Void!
✟1,125,854.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I can see by the year 5019, we can hug our wife without actually doing it. We'll all have sensors and stimulators implanted in our heads along with a quantum microcomputer and transmitter. We'll just think about hugging our wife. The sensors will input the pattern of neuronal activity associated with that thought to our implanted computer. Which will correctly decode it as an intention to hug our wife. This will be then transmitted to our wife's computer, which will stimulate the proper neuronal circuitry in her brain. Resulting in her feeling the sensation of a tender, loving hug.

Of course, it can also be done the old-fashioned way, too. :wave:

This comment of yours doesn't really address or counter anything that is inherent in what I said above. So, I'm just going to have ask, "So what"? If anything, you've just offered a nice little Star Trek vignette of yet one more way to send a "Greeting Card," or a futuristic equivalence of such.
 
Upvote 0

Lobster Johnson

Active Member
Oct 11, 2019
74
88
BC
✟23,321.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Of course, it can also be done the old-fashioned way, too. :wave:

Sure, if you're a pervert.

On the sci-fi-ish topic of possible alternate futures though...

In some hypothetical future world where, say, the Holocaust had been fully carried out and the jewish people had been exterminated in the distant past and an anti-Semitic worldview had saturated much of civilization, I imagine you'd have situations like this thread. A minority of detractors, while the supporters are saying things like 'you don't understand, it was a nation of evil people that had to be put down, there is a proper context that explains how it was okay, it happened a lot in those days it wasn't as bad as some make it sound', etc.

Just a hunch.
 
  • Like
Reactions: gaara4158
Upvote 0

jayem

Naturalist
Jun 24, 2003
15,262
6,943
72
St. Louis, MO.
✟371,163.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
This comment of yours doesn't really address or counter anything that is inherent in what I said above. So, I'm just going to have ask, "So what"? If anything, you've just offered a nice little Star Trek vignette of yet one more way to send a "Greeting Card," or a futuristic equivalence of such.

Lighten up. I was speculating...just as you were. But why so serious? Have some fun. People who are light-hearted and optimistic live longer.

Though probably not 3000 years longer. :oldthumbsup:
 
Upvote 0

2PhiloVoid

Yes, you're right! I'm not Gandalf!
Supporter
Oct 28, 2006
21,122
9,946
The Void!
✟1,125,854.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Lighten up. I was speculating...just as you were. But why so serious? Have some fun. People who are light-hearted and optimistic live longer.

Though probably not 3000 years longer. :oldthumbsup:

Ok. I'll lighten up. It's just I don't understand the incessant dismissal and issue skirting that various atheists prefer to advocate as a form of "expression" when they discuss subjects with Christians. If anything, all of this seems like a misplaced attempt at humor which, to me, doesn't feel like any kind of creative dig at some higher truth, but rather seems to be an attempt at obfuscation and a reinforcement of a "firewall of disbelief," if you will.

But, sure. If some of you guys use an emoticon in your posts, I'll try to remember to "lighten up" a bit and perhaps remind myself that my interlocutor may be saying something tongue-in-cheek. I guess somewhere in there is the ol' maxim, "Do unto other as you would have them to unto you." Ok. I guess that's fair enough, in certain contexts. ;)
 
Upvote 0

jayem

Naturalist
Jun 24, 2003
15,262
6,943
72
St. Louis, MO.
✟371,163.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Ok. I'll lighten up. It's just I don't understand the incessant dismissal and issue skirting that various atheists prefer to advocate as a form of "expression" when they discuss subjects with Christians. If anything, all of this seems like a misplaced attempt at humor which, to me, doesn't feel like any kind of creative dig at some higher truth, but rather seems to be an attempt at obfuscation and a reinforcement of a "firewall of disbelief," if you will.

But, sure. If some of you guys use an emoticon in your posts, I'll try to remember to "lighten up" a bit and perhaps remind myself that my interlocutor may be saying something tongue-in-cheek. I guess somewhere in there is the ol' maxim, "Do unto other as you would have them to unto you." Ok. I guess that's fair enough, in certain contexts. ;)

Excellent! We will have different opinions, but we should try to keep it friendly and good spirited. This is just a discussion board. It's not gladiatorial combat to the death. :)
 
Upvote 0

2PhiloVoid

Yes, you're right! I'm not Gandalf!
Supporter
Oct 28, 2006
21,122
9,946
The Void!
✟1,125,854.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Excellent! We will have different opinions, but we should try to keep it friendly and good spirited. This is just a discussion board. It's not gladiatorial combat to the death. :)

Very true, although I would say that, from my perspective, this actually is an area of a certain kind of combat, one that is only cognizant to the "Christian believer," maybe kind of like this following song! :) (Man, I've always just got a thrill from this song; and it's always been a kind of definitive motif in my Christian mind. It just makes me want to Wail for Jesus like a Banshee!):

 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Sketcher

Born Imperishable
Feb 23, 2004
38,978
9,399
✟377,931.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
Hello there, I would like to know your opinions on these verses:

1 Samuel 15:3
Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.
They had it coming.

Pslam 137
Happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us / He who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks."
A cry for justice against the Babylonian army.

Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the cruel.” (1 Peter 2:18)
Hard to do, but necessary. Imitating Christ on the cross.

She lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses. Ezekiel 23:20 NIV
Judah was idolatrous, chasing after improper ways, rather than the ways given to her by God. That whole chapter is an apt description of Israel and Judah's idolatry, though certainly not for children.

Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately. But all the girls who have not known man intimately, spare for yourselves. Numbers 31:17-18
They had to deal with the Midianites, who were hostile to them. Sparing the virgins meant sparing those who had not enticed the Israelite men sexually to take part in their idolatry.

When a woman has a discharge, if her discharge in her body is blood, she shall continue in her menstrual impurity for seven days; and whoever touches her shall be unclean until evening. Everything also on which she lies during her menstrual impurity shall be unclean, and everything on which she sits shall be unclean. Leviticus 15: 19-20
I once monitored a computer lab for special needs students. One of them had a discharge on one of the chairs. "Everything on which she sits shall be unclean" indeed. That chair had to be taken away. Given how low-tech Israel was at the time, I'd say this is understandable.

When men fight with one another, and the wife of the one draws near to rescue her husband from the hand of him who is beating him, and puts out her hand and seizes him by the private parts, then you shall cut off her hand. Deuteronomy 25:11-12
For the life of me, I can't think of why grabbing a man's genitals and pulling would be for his personal safety. She could have grabbed any other limb. Heck yeah, cut her hand off.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 2PhiloVoid
Upvote 0

TruthSeeker321

Active Member
Oct 11, 2019
63
6
20
Egypt
✟8,991.00
Country
Egypt
Faith
Muslim
Marital Status
Single

There were a few evil nations that God told them to destroy. Not sure what else you want to be explained from that.





This was during the Jewish exile in Babylon. They had enslaved the Jews, killed their babies, and destroyed their city and God's people were crying out for the same kind of revenge on them.



The word used here is not the Greek douli, the classic term for "slaves." Rather, it is oiketai, probably best translated as "servants." That being said, the line between servants and slaves was blurry in Peter's time. Slavery had little to do with race. Oftentimes if a man could not pay his debts he would become a slave for 7 years to pay it off. Others were prisoners of war and some were born into it. Slavery was seen as completely normal in this time period but most times it wasn't how we think of it.



That is a metaphor for the unfaithful and ungodly behaviours of Israelites.



Another directive to kill of an evil nation.
When they presented their spoils to Moses and Eleazar the priest, Moses became very angry because they had spared the lives of the women and children. Numbers 31:15-18, “And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD. Only the female children of the Midianites were spared. This ensured the demise of the Midianites as a race since there were no males to carry on the lineage.



The Old Testament had a lot of health laws. They had no idea about germs or how diseases spread. While the threat of hand removal sounds grim I don't believe there is record of it ever happening. Grabbing hold of a man's genitals who was not your husband was considered a very bad crime. The offence was similar to adultery and of course, that was stoning to death.
Remember this was all part of their culture and times. We are not under any of the Old Testament laws.

1-So Everyone including man and women were evil. And what did animals do? We're they also evil? The verse doesn't say to attack some evil people. It's generalizing.


2-So if someone killed my son, I have to the right to kill his son? Rethink your ethical standards. And the verse is saying that the happy one is who smashes children with a rock.


3-I am not talking about slavery itself, but rather the bad owners. The verse commands the slaves to submit to the cruel owners which is unethical.


4-This is actually a disgusting metaphor. What did I gain from such an expression. It added nothing.

5-The problem with these verses is that they are generalising. I wonder if every single man, and women deserved to be killed.

6-Isn't the Old Testament supposedly from God? It just seems the writer of that verse was really so ignorant to assume that everything a women on her period touch and sits on is unclean for 7 days.
 
Upvote 0

TruthSeeker321

Active Member
Oct 11, 2019
63
6
20
Egypt
✟8,991.00
Country
Egypt
Faith
Muslim
Marital Status
Single
How about these, OP?

You are either ignorant of the context of the verses, or simply deceiving. All these sword verses were revealed for a specific reason. They are not generalizing like the Bible. Nowhere it says to kill every man and women.
 
Upvote 0

Strathos

No one important
Dec 11, 2012
12,663
6,531
God's Earth
✟263,276.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
You are either ignorant of the context of the verses, or simply deceiving. All these sword verses were revealed for a specific reason. They are not generalizing like the Bible. Nowhere it says to kill every man and women.

Nice mirror you have there, friend.
 
Upvote 0

2PhiloVoid

Yes, you're right! I'm not Gandalf!
Supporter
Oct 28, 2006
21,122
9,946
The Void!
✟1,125,854.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Tu quoque means "you, too". If someone challenges you on your actions and rather than explain yourself you respond "but you do it, too" you've committed a tu quoque fallacy.

Someone needs to start this as a movement: #Tu quoque ^_^ ..... there we go. IT has begun! And if we're lucky, maybe we'll get Bono in on it.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Strathos

No one important
Dec 11, 2012
12,663
6,531
God's Earth
✟263,276.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
What a childish response.

I call them as I see them. You don't accept the same excuses others give you to justify the verses in your OP, so why do you expect anyone to accept your excuses to justify the verses I posted?
 
Upvote 0

R.J. Aldridge

Active Member
Jun 19, 2019
62
30
34
Lompoc
✟15,900.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Hello there, I would like to know your opinions on these verses:

1 Samuel 15:3
Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.

Ever since Exodus 17:14 to 16 it has been known that the Amalekites would meet their end. Because God had chosen Israel to be His people, in order to enact His ultimate plan of saving the human race, God needed to protect them and preserve them. Because Amalek and his descendants were direct enemies of God and His people, representing everything that God hates, in order to prevent their corrupt practices from spreading to the Israelites, they needed to be eliminated like an infectious disease.

There is deep context to this verse. It doesn't exist in a vacuum.


Pslam 137
Happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us / He who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks."


There is also context to this verse that should not be overlooked. This is Hebrew poetry. It is a song, and a sad song to be honest. It is about the Israelite people, having been taken captive, their home destroyed, and are asked by their captors to sing a happy song about the city that was destroyed. It's like the Nazis asking their captives to sing a happy song about their home, to which the psalmist writes, "Happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us / He who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks." It is an honest expression of the kind of anger one feels when they are taunted by enemies who committed such terrible acts against them.

Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the cruel.” (1 Peter 2:18)

The word "slaves" causes everyone to think of american slavery, which is not the slavery mentioned in the bible. However, even in the context of american slavery, a slave who obeys God, serving God in the midst of slavery, is the essence of the Christian life. If you are a slave to man, serve God in the midst of it. If you are free, be a slave to Christ and submit yourself to His rule. We are all slaves to something, therefore serve Christ in whatever position you are in. If you are a slave, if your master is cruel, be the most useful person to them and their cruelty hurt themselves the most.

She lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses. Ezekiel 23:20 NIV

This disgusting imagery only reflects the reality of what God sees when His people indulge in their lustful perversions.

Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately. But all the girls who have not known man intimately, spare for yourselves. Numbers 31:17-18

The Midianites sent their women to seduce the Israelite men, which lead to a plague, which resulted in tens of thousands of dead Israelites. God told them to kill the men and women in response to their crimes, the male children so as to discontinue their inheritance, and the virgin girls were divided up and given to the tabernacle and the soldiers' families, not to be abused, but to be assimilated.

When a woman has a discharge, if her discharge in her body is blood, she shall continue in her menstrual impurity for seven days; and whoever touches her shall be unclean until evening. Everything also on which she lies during her menstrual impurity shall be unclean, and everything on which she sits shall be unclean. Leviticus 15: 19-20When men fight with one another, and the wife of the one draws near to rescue her husband from the hand of him who is beating him, and puts out her hand and seizes him by the private parts, then you shall cut off her hand. Deuteronomy 25:11-12

When reading Leviticus, the word "unclean" is used a lot. In the case of menstrual blood, the woman is not impure in the moral sense, she is impure in the ceremonial sense. Their physical behaviors reflected a spiritual pattern of living. Sure there are points to be made concerning hygiene, but my point is simply to stear people away from the thought that these verses reflect the moral character of the woman.

Regarding the verses in Deuteronomy, a mans genitals allow them to have children that will continue the family inheritance to the next generation. The bible takes inheritance very seriously. Cutting off a hand is harsh in today's world, but in a world in which God is using the Israelite families to one day bring forth a messiah, you wouldn't want to accidentally prevent a man from passing on his family name.

Verses like these are often sited in order to persuade people that the God of the bible, specifically the old testament is of poor moral character. The same people will question why God doesn't destroy evil given the fact that He is all-powerful and all-good. God completely destroying humanity in a flood because they were evil is often criticized because God appears to be committing evil despite the fact that He is acting in opposition to evil. If God allows evil to persist He is evil, and if He eliminates evil He is a tyrant. If men can choose evil God is blamed and if men cannot choose evil they are robots. But because God would rather you exist with the potential of choosing evil than to not exist at all, all we can blame God for is our existence itself.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Dave-W

Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner!
Supporter
Jun 18, 2014
30,521
16,866
Maryland - just north of D.C.
Visit site
✟771,800.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Did God really say that she lusted over lovers whose gentals were like of donkeys? Was really that a necessarity? And God really say that the happy one is who dashes children against the rocks?
Yes He did.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

gaara4158

Gen Alpha Dad
Aug 18, 2007
6,437
2,685
United States
✟196,179.00
Country
United States
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Yeah, I can see something like "hugging one's wife with tender care (or vice versa)" as something that could be seen as a form of human depravity, especially 3000 years from now, don't you?
The concept of marriage as a legal institution will probably be seen as archaic, but a more likely candidate for “depravity in hindsight” would be our current prison and criminal justice system.
 
Upvote 0