Deliverance Gifts.

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AlexDTX

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There are no Apostles today. Note the past tense;


“How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?” Hebrews 2:3–4 (KJV 1900)

This verse is in the past tense simply because it is speaking of those apostles in Israel, not in the sense of cessation. The writer of Hebrews is self identifying as Jewish believer. You are seeing this from from both a cessationist point of view and in a titular point of view.

Post Script
We know the final book of the Bible, Revelations, was written at the end of the 1st century, which means many, if not all, the known apostles were still alive when Hebrews was written. It would be highly presumptive on the part of the writer (Paul imo) to assume the apostolic ministry was over while they were still actively doing the work.
 
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Ricky M

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The reason the apostolic signs and wonders are not seen so much is the spiritual condition of the church. I doubt that there were many signs and wonders in Laodicea either.
Reminds me of the towns where Jesus couldn't heal because He couldn't prove He was in-network.
 
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swordsman1

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All of what I saw was in response to simply believing and obeying His word. He said pray for the sick so I did. Sometimes I saw a healing over time and sometimes an instantaneous release.

You pray for the sick. Great, so do I. We agree God can heal people in response to prayer.
 
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AlexDTX

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Healing was never intended as a health care plan.

When did Jesus ever empty a hospital?
He would have gladly emptied a hospital if they would all believe.

In the 19th century, in Washington State, there was an American preacher named John Lake who emptied hospitals. His faith was so strong that when challenged he accepted the application of bacteria and viruses on his arm. When placed under a microscope, those germs were all dead.

This is the report. Obviously I was not there, but am sharing for consideration.
 
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swordsman1

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OK, so my chronic liver condition from 48 years ago still exists. Except it doesn't.

Did anyone pray for you to be healed of your liver condition? If so then I would say you were healed as a response to that prayer, not by someone gifted with the supernatural ability to heal others.
 
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swordsman1

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Nope.
A church member, who would have said that she had no faith, once touched me on the shoulder and said "I want to heal you" - after that, the M.E that I had had for 18 years completely disappeared.

Did anyone pray for you to be healed of M.E.? If so then I would say you were healed as a response to that prayer, not by someone gifted with the supernatural ability to heal - which certainly would not be someone who "had no faith" (by that I presume an unbeliever?).

Prayer is talking to God; Jesus often prayed, and/or gave thanks, before he healed.

Jesus never prayed for healing. He had the supernatural ability to heal people by nothing more than a command or a touch, as did the early church leaders.

If someone has the supernatural ability to heal, they would not need to call upon God to perform the healing.
 
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swordsman1

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It wasn't, because the decision to put Gospels, epistles etc together into one book had not been put forward then.
John wrote Revelation - he did not have any idea that he was writing the last book of Scripture. Some people read Revelation 22:18-19 and assume that "this book" means the entire Bible. It doesn't.

There was no further inspired writings after John wrote Revelation. The canon was closed at that point. Don't confuse the closure of the canon with the compilation of the canon. All that the various councils did when they compiled the canon was to decide which writings were inspired and which were not - the main criteria being apostolic authorship.
 
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Dave L

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This verse is in the past tense simply because it is speaking of those apostles in Israel, not in the sense of cessation. The writer of Hebrews is self identifying as Jewish believer. You are seeing this from from both a cessationist point of view and in a titular point of view.

Post Script
We know the final book of the Bible, Revelations, was written at the end of the 1st century, which means many, if not all, the known apostles were still alive when Hebrews was written. It would be highly presumptive on the part of the writer (Paul imo) to assume the apostolic ministry was over while they were still actively doing the work.
There was no further inspired writings after John wrote Revelation. The canon was closed at that point. Don't confuse the closure of the canon with the compilation of the canon. All that the various councils did when they compiled the canon was to decide which writings were inspired and which were not - the main criteria being apostolic authorship.


Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.” 2 Corinthians 12:12 (KJV 1900)

Nothing today comes close.
 
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swordsman1

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I would add that faith needs a two way street. Jesus could only do a few miracles in Nazareth because the people their could not believe him since they saw him grow up as a child. Faith without doubt has to be in both people.

It was not a case of Jesus being unable to heal people in Nazareth. He is the almighty son of God, he can heal anybody he wants, at any time he wants. He simply chose not to heal them. Although Jesus sometimes healed people as a reward for their faith (or not as was the case at Nazareth), more often than not faith is not an ingredient of healing:

  • The lame man at the pool of Bethesda didn't have faith he would be healed.

  • The blind man who was told to wash in the Pool of Siloam didn't have faith.

  • The demon possessed boy was healed without anybody's faith. In fact the boy's father lacked faith.

  • When Peter chopped off the ear of high priest's servant, Jesus healed him without anybody having faith.

  • Peter healed the lame man in Acts 3 without anybody's faith.

  • Peter’s mother-in-law did not have faith that she would healed.

  • The people whom Paul healed in Malta did not have faith - they attributed their healing to pagan gods!


  • Paul didn't lack faith, yet he was not healed of his thorn in the flesh despite repeatedly praying to be healed.

Faith to be healed is not a requirement of healing. Faith was often rewarded, but it is never stated to be a condition of a person's healing, nor was it ever used as an excuse for a not being healed.
 
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swordsman1

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I don't agree with your statement. The Greek word apostolos which is transliterated in English as "apostle" simply means "sent ones". It became a title afterwards. All missionaries who are sent by God to areas where the Gospel is unknown are apostles. They found churches in the dry places. They train leaders to carry on the work as God sends them to new areas.

In scripture, whenever apostolos is translated "apostles" it refers only to the small band of divinely appointed, miracle working, eye-witness apostles of Christ. ie the Twelve and perhaps 2 or 3 others. Not to any other group of people.

Apostles were the foundation of the church. Eph 2:20 "...built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone"

Is the foundation of the church still being laid today?
 
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ByTheSpirit

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We've heard that one before.

I'll let Carl speak for himself, but here's what I have to say.

I'm pretty sure that if God told Carl to do that (heal everyone in the hospital), he would.
But I'm guessing that God didn't tell Carl to do that.

When God chooses to heal someone through us, he chooses who that is, not us.

Exactly correct, that's why the lame man Peter healed at the Temple in Acts 3 was never healed by Jesus. Guaranteed Jesus saw that man at least a couple times and Jesus didn't heal him, why? Jesus said in John that EVERYTHING he did was because the Father showed him or told him to do it. He acted according to God the Father's perfect will. So if God were to tell someone to go to the local hospital and lay hands on every single person they could and every single one of them would be well.

That is such a tiresome and lazy argument against the gifts, really needs to be updated
 
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ByTheSpirit

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I have wondered about setting up a small group to minister online I am unsure if this could work out or not.

The bottom line is that if He is not moving, any efforts will be in vain.

Maybe this is something to pray about...

I once ministered healing to my wife through the telephone. We were talking and she said her neck hurt so bad she could even look up or down or side to side. So I told her to lay her own hand on her neck and I said Jesus heals you. And she instantly testified that all the pain was gone and her range of motion had returned.

Healing gifts are absolutely for today and in operation today. People say no they arent because they can't control them. Thats what it is really about. Control. Man wants to control the church, not allowing God any say
 
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Strong in Him

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Did anyone pray for you to be healed of M.E.?

Many people - at healing services and elsewhere; yet I wasn't healed when they prayed.
not by someone gifted with the supernatural ability to heal - which certainly would not be someone who "had no faith" (by that I presume an unbeliever?).

No, read what I said; I said that she would say that she didn't have faith. She was a faithful and regular church member and attender at Bible study.

Jesus never prayed for healing. He had the supernatural ability to heal people by nothing more than a command or a touch, as did the early church leaders.

He prayed before he raised Lazarus from the dead, as did Peter with Dorcas.
Jesus spent much time in prayer - all night, on one occasion - and the apostles met daily to pray and break bread. Just because Scripture doesn't say "they prayed before they went out and healed", it's almost certain that they did so. There is no evidence that Jesus did NOT pray before he healed.
 
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tturt

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There were Apostles of the Lamb (Rev 21:14). Then there was Paul (II Tm 1:1) and a couple of others. So there's no adding to the foundation they established but apostles today are the sent out ones by God, plant churches, pray for others.

We have delegated authority Authority over the enemy Matt 28:18; and Eph 1 17 through Eph 2:6 .because of Jesus' sacrifice and resurrection (John 3:16)
 
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LoveofTruth

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The canon was completed when the last person authorised and inspired to write scripture wrote their last words. Which was around AD100 as Carl corrected stated. The compilation of those inspired writings into a book we know as "the Bible" is something completely different.
Do you agree that every person in 1 Corinthians 14 who truly prophesied was speaking Gods word? If so none of them were written down.yet they were still speaking under unction and leading. We also read of certain prophets in scripture in the New Testament such as Agabas and others in Acts 13 yet none of their words were written down, yet they were true prophets of God speaking under unction and forth telling etc.
So the point is, That God only chose certain words to be put for scripture. Not all apostles have their words in the Spirit in scripture nor did all of the Prophets in the Old Testament it the new have everything they said in the Spirit added to scripture.
 
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AlexDTX

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It was not a case of Jesus being unable to heal people in Nazareth. He is the almighty son of God, he can heal anybody he wants, at any time he wants. He simply chose not to heal them.

According to Peter, God is not willing that any should perish. He is almighty God. I see 3 ways to look at this. 1) the Calvinist view that God chooses who he will save, which is a contradiction in what Peter said because "willing" means God's choice. 2) the Universal Salvation view that God will save everyone in the end, or 3) God gave us the responsibility to respond in faith. In my opinion the first and second options remove responsibility from each of us, and that seems like a dishonest cop out. We have the responsibility to respond in faith. In all your examples there was someone who believed, perhaps not reported, but someone.

Faith to be healed is not a requirement of healing.

This wrong doctrine is why so few Christians experience healing. And why so few, when they pray, actually believe the person will be healed.
 
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AlexDTX

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In scripture,

Not according to early church writers. Many, apart from the 12, are called apostles. This doctrine of only those 12 were apostles came much later in church history.

Is the foundation of the church still being laid today?

Yes, in areas where the Gospel is newly being preached. Those missionaries and evangelists who work together to establish local congregations are laying the foundation.

In your view it sounds like you are making the martyrdoms of those 12 equal to the crucifixion of Christ. Christ alone is the foundation, and those who lead others to Christ, discipling them in the way Christ are laying the foundation of Christ in their lives.
 
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