Deliverance Gifts.

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Strong in Him

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Healing never ceased. God can and still does heal today, eg in response to prayer. What has ceased is the GIFT of healing,

Nope.
A church member, who would have said that she had no faith, once touched me on the shoulder and said "I want to heal you" - after that, the M.E that I had had for 18 years completely disappeared.

If someone has to pray for healing it proves they do not have the gift of healing.

?? That's your definition of it; it doesn't prove anything.
Prayer is talking to God; Jesus often prayed, and/or gave thanks, before he healed.
 
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Strong in Him

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The canon was completed when the last person authorised and inspired to write scripture wrote their last words.

It wasn't, because the decision to put Gospels, epistles etc together into one book had not been put forward then.
John wrote Revelation - he did not have any idea that he was writing the last book of Scripture. Some people read Revelation 22:18-19 and assume that "this book" means the entire Bible. It doesn't.
 
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Dave L

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Hi there,

If John dies around AD100, the Canon of scripture is closed and the gifts ceased, how come the church fathers continued to testify concerning deliverance and healings after that time?

Examples:

110 A.D. Ignatius of Antioch, Clement of Rome, Didache
150 A.D.-180 A.D. Justin Martyr, Tatian, Theophilus
190 A.D.-210 A.D. Irenaeus, Melito of Sardis, Tertullian, Minucius Felix
230 A.D.-300 A.D. Origen, Lactantius
325 A.D. Eusebius
375 A.D. Cyril of Jerusalem
Faith still heals the sick. Demons flee in Jesus' name. But the Apostles and the signs and wonders gifts ceased in the first century.
 
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Aussie Pete

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I have wondered about setting up a small group to minister online I am unsure if this could work out or not.

The bottom line is that if He is not moving, any efforts will be in vain.

Maybe this is something to pray about...
We will pray about this. About 20 years ago, we had an irc ministry. We prayed for some people over the phone. God is not troubled by distance.
 
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Aussie Pete

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Faith still heals the sick. Demons flee in Jesus' name. But the Apostles and the signs and wonders gifts ceased in the first century.
The reason the apostolic signs and wonders are not seen so much is the spiritual condition of the church. I doubt that there were many signs and wonders in Laodicea either.
 
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Dave L

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The reason the apostolic signs and wonders are not seen so much is the spiritual condition of the church. I doubt that there were many signs and wonders in Laodicea either.
The signs and wonders were unique to the Apostles and those they laid their hands on. But the prayer of faith still heals and demons still flee in Jesus' name when commanded.

“Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.” 2 Corinthians 12:12 (KJV 1900)
 
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AlexDTX

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Yes, we have found that His purpose in healing is quite specific. Faith comes from hearing the Word of Christ. It requires cultivating the ability to be able to 'see' what the Father is doing then co-operating with this in obedience.
What's your opinion on healing ministries?
A good example is Post #70 on the thread above.
I would add that faith needs a two way street. Jesus could only do a few miracles in Nazareth because the people their could not believe him since they saw him grow up as a child. Faith without doubt has to be in both people.
 
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AlexDTX

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Is there some scriptural difference between the ones God choses to heal and those he does not chose to heal?

This point of view assumes healing is a one on one matter. Healing is for all who will believe it, not a matter of God saying, You get to be healed, you don't. The reason it is for all is because healing is in Jesus being healed. When Scripture says, By his stripes we are healed, it does not mean the whip lashes are the healing. It means the damage of sin that Jesus became, and began with the whippings, was healed in him when he was resurrected.

In the new birth, we are crucified with Christ and are raised with Christ. Our sickness and damage is destroyed with Christ and healed with Christ. It is already a done deal. However, all Christ gives us is not automatically received by us. For example, a computer program may have many features, but if all you know about is cut and paste, you will not receive the benefit of formatting, tables, media insertion, etc.

We have to be convinced those things are for us to access. We have to believe without doubt that Jesus has already provided healing for us so we can manifest it in our lives. Just like salvation. If all you believe is that you will go to heaven, then you have the new birth but are not benefiting from all that is in salvation.

By the way, the Greek word for "saved", sozo, is also the word for "health". The two are linked together.
 
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AlexDTX

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If you had the ability to instantly and completely heal people with just a "proclamation" I would expect you to be world famous.
People believe what they want to believe. The Pharisees not only said Jesus did his "miracles" (quotes indicate their attitude, not mine) by the power of Beelzebub, but conspired to cover up the resurrection by circulating the rumor that his disciples had stolen the body. Those who did not want to believe, used that story to justify their unbelief.

90% of claimed miracles are nothing of the sort.

Mark Twain said there are 3 kinds of lies. Lies, damn lies and statistics. Humility is needed for saving faith. Only when we acknowledge that we are sinners that need saving do we experience the new birth. Likewise the miraculous needs humility. Only when we acknowledge that we have unbelief do we get past unbelief to simple faith. We have to be like the man who told Jesus to help him with his unbelief. Humility is the spouse of grace. Legalism is the spouse of pride. Pride does not want to be wrong in anything, so if healing does not occur, pride says healing is not available, or the gift of healing ceased with the Apostles.
 
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AlexDTX

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The canon was completed when the last person authorised and inspired to write scripture wrote their last words. Which was around AD100 as Carl corrected stated. The compilation of those inspired writings into a book we know as "the Bible" is something completely different.

Small matter, forgive me for pointing this out. The canon and the compilation are the same thing. I think you meant the last inspired document was written around 100 AD, then in the second century the compiled canon was agreed upon for the New Testament. The OT canon was determined by the Jews long before Christ arrived. The Early Church Fathers accepted the Jewish canon of the OT. Sometime in the Middle Ages the Roman Catholic Church added certain Apocryphal documents that were rejected earlier. I don't know about the Eastern Orthodox canon of today.

I find it interesting that many Christians, because of the belief in the teaching that demons procreated with women in Gen 6, look upon the pseudopigraphal work of Enoch as equal to the inspired canon of the Bible.
 
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AlexDTX

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OK, so my chronic liver condition from 48 years ago still exists. Except it doesn't.

Andrew Wommack says there are 3 kinds of unbelief.
  1. Ignorance. Someone just does not know that God heals today.
  2. Wrong Doctrine. Someone who has been told that God does not heal today.
  3. Reality. When you have a broken leg, or a chronic liver condition, the reality of your infirmity is the hardest to overcome.
When the disciples could not cast out a demon in someone they came to Jesus and asked why they could not do it. Jesus told them that it was because of their unbelief. Then he said, this kind does not come out except with prayer and fasting. Most assume Jesus meant the demon does not come out, but Jesus was referring to the unbelief does not come out except by prayer and fasting. I have no doubt that the manifestation of the demon in reality was overwhelming for the disciples. The saw the drool. They saw the whirling. The saw the cutting. They heard the demon speaking (all speculation on my part to make the point).

The reality of an infirmity is hard to ignore. Nor does pretending it doesn't exist work either. That is just plain stupid. Prayer and fasting does not say it is not there. It says it is there, but greater is he that is in you than he that is in the world. Prayer and fasting puts the reality of this life in perspective to the greater reality of God and what has been done in the spirit already.
 
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AlexDTX

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I have wondered about setting up a small group to minister online I am unsure if this could work out or not.
Carl, in this forum, a few years ago, someone asked for prayer for healing. I wrote out my prayer to the person in response to the request. That person read my prayer. The next day she responded that she was healed when she read my prayer. Online ministry works because God is omnipresent and that person asked believing she could be healed if someone answered.
 
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AlexDTX

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But the Apostles and the signs and wonders gifts ceased in the first century.

I don't agree with your statement. The Greek word apostolos which is transliterated in English as "apostle" simply means "sent ones". It became a title afterwards. All missionaries who are sent by God to areas where the Gospel is unknown are apostles. They found churches in the dry places. They train leaders to carry on the work as God sends them to new areas.

Miracles still exist today and did not cease. I have personally experienced what it was like to be teleported like Philip had been. I have seen arms and legs grow out. They still exist, my friend.
 
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Francis Drake

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What keeps you from going into a hospital and healing everyone in there?
Why didn't Jesus go to all the grave yards and resurrect everyone?
Why didn't Jesus spend more time gathering all the sick in all the towns and healing them?
Why didn't Jesus go to all the neighbouring nations and heal there?
 
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tturt

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Correct. When Jesus was on earth, not everyone in the geographical area wes healed. But those who appealed to Him for themselves or others were healed. Yet He's not limited by distance as shown with the Centurion who recognized His power and authority.

He extends His hand to heal Acts 4:30
His presence to heal Luk 5:17
 
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Francis Drake

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I don't agree with your statement. The Greek word apostolos which is transliterated in English as "apostle" simply means "sent ones". It became a title afterwards. All missionaries who are sent by God to areas where the Gospel is unknown are apostles. They found churches in the dry places. They train leaders to carry on the work as God sends them to new areas.
Amen.
And for those out on the mission field, if they reject the notion of modern day apostles, then by what power and authority are they out there?
If they continue to deny apostleship, they have obviously not been sent by God, and should return back home and seek another job.
 
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Joy

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Nope.
A church member, who would have said that she had no faith, once touched me on the shoulder and said "I want to heal you" - after that, the M.E that I had had for 18 years completely disappeared.

Great Testimony:)
 
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Dave L

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I don't agree with your statement. The Greek word apostolos which is transliterated in English as "apostle" simply means "sent ones". It became a title afterwards. All missionaries who are sent by God to areas where the Gospel is unknown are apostles. They found churches in the dry places. They train leaders to carry on the work as God sends them to new areas.

Miracles still exist today and did not cease. I have personally experienced what it was like to be teleported like Philip had been. I have seen arms and legs grow out. They still exist, my friend.
There are no Apostles today. Note the past tense;


“How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?” Hebrews 2:3–4 (KJV 1900)
 
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