GOD'S WORD vs TRADITIONS OF MEN; Sabbath vs Sunday

Bro. Dave Gardner said:

You are trying to get me to conflate the law regarding sacrifices with that of the moral code of the ten commandments. It's simply not going to happen for you.

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Jesus commented on 'the law' in this verse below.

Luke 16:17
But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter of the Law to fail.

Jesus was not referring to the ten commandments in that verse above because Jesus never mentioned the phrase 'the ten commandments'.

A letter of the law cannot fail until all is fulfilled or accomplished. So how do you explain that
circumcision is no longer a valid law?

sparow said:

A lot of folk think Paul is dictating directly from God, but Paul as a Rabbi is arguing in debate; each verse is context dependant.

<<The written Law kills, but the Spirit gives life.>>

There is an assumption in the common interpretation of this; that is, the God who lived in the box in the tent and latter became Christ in the flesh, was incompetent. It was always an abomination to keep the Law without entering into the old covenant; now I believe the opposite true, it is an abomination to enter into the covenant and not keep the Law.

The Law has never failed, it was always Israel who failed and their main failing was not interring in. Nor did the Pharisees keep the Law the way God required.

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What about the following laws?

Drunkenness and gluttony
Food laws
Clothing laws
Health laws
Civil laws
Sacrificial laws
Temple laws
Clergy laws
Sexual laws
Slave laws

Who decides what law is retained and what law is invalid?

Bro. Dave Gardner said:

Would anyone admit to this charge even if they believed it? Behold, the diversionary rhetoric is not convincing anyone. The ones who come to your aid already believe what you claim.

Believing that Christians should, by the grace of God, keep the ten commandments to the best of their God-given ability does not equate to rejecting Christ's substitutionary atonement, no matter how hard you work to conflate the two.

Scripture simply does not teach a lawless covenant, even if people choose to do so.

For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
Matthew 5:18 NIV

Last I checked, heaven and earth had not disappeared, nor has everything been accomplished.

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How do you define 'nor has everything been accomplished'?

Luke 21:22
Because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled.

What were the 'all things' that would be accomplished or fulfilled?

Luke 24:44
Now He said to them, “These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.”

Does the fulfillment of all these things include everything predicted or is it related to messianic predictions?

Bob S said:

2Cor3:
Are we beginning to praise ourselves again? Some people need letters that speak well of them. Do we need those kinds of letters, either to you or from you? 2 You yourselves are our letter. You are written on our hearts. Everyone knows you and reads you. 3 You make it clear that you are a letter from Christ. You are the result of our work for God. You are a letter written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God. You are a letter written not on tablets made out of stone but on human hearts.

4 Through Christ, we can be sure of this before God. 5 In ourselves we are not able to claim anything for ourselves. The power to do what we do comes from God. 6 He has given us the power to serve under a new covenant. The covenant is not based on the written Law of Moses. It comes from the Holy Spirit. The written Law kills, but the Spirit gives life.

To those who feel we must observe the ritual laws of the old covenant please explain why Paul, the ambassador of our Savior Jesus Christ, wrote that we are not under the covenant based on the written Law of Moses.

Paul goes on to write: 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness!

Paul called the Galatians foolish because they allowed the Judaizers to persuade them to observe the Law of Moses. Do not allow anyone to persuade you to observe the ritual laws of the Law of Moses. Christians answer to a much higher calling, The Royal Law of Love.

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This verse you quoted just about sums up the debate on the ten commandments.

2 Corinthians 3
7 But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory?

The ministry of death in letters engraved on stone. Paul is pulling no punches here. No wonder he was pursued by the Jewish followers of the law all over the known world.

klutedavid said:

What about the following laws?

Drunkenness and gluttony
Food laws
Clothing laws
Health laws
Civil laws
Sacrificial laws
Temple laws
Clergy laws
Sexual laws
Slave laws

Who decides what law is retained and what law is invalid?

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As I have said before, my understanding is: if God made the Law it is always valid.

This response posted before I was finished.

sparow said:

As I have said before, my understanding is: if God made the Law it is always valid.

This response posted before I was finished.

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So the logical question is then what laws are you under and what laws do not apply anymore?

klutedavid said:

What about the following laws?

Drunkenness and gluttony
Food laws
Clothing laws
Health laws
Civil laws
Sacrificial laws
Temple laws
Clergy laws
Sexual laws
Slave laws

Who decides what law is retained and what law is invalid?

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As I have said before, my understanding is: if God made the Law it is always valid.

There is the Law of God presented and moderated by Moses and there is the Law of God presented and moderated by Jesus; so it is said the old is the type and the new is the anti-type, the new confirms the old.

The spirit of then Law does not replace the letter of the Law. The spirit of the Law is what has always existed and the written Law is how the spirit of the Law is conveyed to us.

Having the Law written on the heart is to have a knowledge of good and evil so as to be like God, (it was Satan who first that, which is worrying). And as prophesied today evil is often called good and visversa.

Isaiah is a prophet who tells us about Christ.

Isaiah 28:16-17 (NKJV)
16 Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: "Behold, I lay in Zion a stone for a foundation, A tried stone, a precious cornerstone, a sure foundation; Whoever believes will not act hastily.
17 Also I will make justice the measuring line, And righteousness the plummet; The hail will sweep away the refuge of lies, And the waters will overflow the hiding place.

klutedavid said:

So the logical question is then what laws are you under and what laws do not apply anymore?

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I am not under any law, I am under the King ; the Law of God is a foundation I stand on, as does the King also.

klutedavid said:

Is the Sabbath law a moral law?

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Unless God is to be reduced to a slick con-artist, yes, it is. Think about it.

klutedavid said:

What does 'Adventist' mean?

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Not sure what your question has to do with the quote, but "Adventist" means one who is looking for the physical appearance of the Lord Jesus Christ.

klutedavid said:

How would you define the phrase, 'the law', as shown in the verse below?
Romans 7:5 For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death.

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I'm always fascinated by the selections of translations used to further a private interpretation of Scripture. I'm going to leave you to do your own objective study of this verse, so you will be convinced in your own mind. I will certainly say that it isn't faithfully rendered in the NASB. Bait not taken. Sorry to disappoint.

klutedavid said:

Who decides what law is retained and what law is invalid?

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Evidently you do.

sparow said:

As I have said before, my understanding is: if God made the Law it is always valid.

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Ooops. They're gonna ding ya on that one.

sparow said:

I am not under any law, I am under the King ; the Law of God is a foundation I stand on, as does the King also.

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So your saying that you are not under the Sabbath law?

Only someone under the law suffers the punishment for the failure to obey the law.

D.A. Wright said:

Evidently you do.

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Well let me tell you that I have never been able to find an answer to that question, what laws are valid laws for Gentiles?

I know for a fact that Gentiles were told by the disciples in Acts 15, the rules the Gentiles are to follow. So I just stick to what I was told to do by the disciples. Anything else regarding the law involves inference and interpretation of the text.

Your duty to God for a Gentile is explained in some detail in Paul's letters.

D.A. Wright said:

Ooops. They're gonna ding ya on that one.

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You bet we will.

God made circumcision and that law will never fail.

klutedavid said:

You bet we will.

God made circumcision and that law will never fail.

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Bravo, Good Show! You Won!

D.A. Wright said:

Unless God is to be reduced to a slick con-artist, yes, it is. Think about it.

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So why do nearly all church organizations regard the Sabbath as a ceremonial law or even a sign of the old covenant. None of them ever call the Sabbath a moral law, you need to think about that. Circumcision is not a moral law and nor is the Sabbath law.

Not sure what your question has to do with the quote, but "Adventist" means one who is looking for the physical appearance of the Lord Jesus Christ.

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That is an interesting reply though not correct.

The name of your church is Seventh Day ADVENTIST. Your shouting at me with that name, just two things, the first thing is the SABBATH day. And the second thing is Jesus can return imminently. Not just a physical return of Jesus Christ, most Christians today believe in a physical return of Jesus Christ. I am shocked that SDA folk can walk around and not even know what 'Adventist' actually means. It basically means that Jesus can return right now and nothing needs to happen first.

There are differing meanings given for the definition of an 'Adventist'. Yet the majority of the definitions seem to define 'Adventist', as one who believes Jesus is coming back very soon. Simply put, there are no events that must occur before Jesus returns. Thus an Adventist believes Jesus can return tomorrow.

I'm always fascinated by the selections of translations used to further a private interpretation of Scripture. I'm going to leave you to do your own objective study of this verse, so you will be convinced in your own mind. I will certainly say that it isn't faithfully rendered in the NASB. Bait not taken. Sorry to disappoint.

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I do not interpret the text rather I just read the text. No theological tricks, I never alter the text, no church has influenced the way I read the text. As I have no affiliation with any church. I have never come across a perfect church in doctrine and I never will. They all exhibit some bias in their doctrine, the older the church the worse the doctrine.

The NASB is a literal translation of the Greek text. One of the better translations available and most of the time, there is only a low level of theological bias.

What translation do you use?

I hope you do not say KJV.

klutedavid said:

You bet we will.

God made circumcision and that law will never fail.

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Oh, could you maybe explain exactly (not figuratively or abstractly, as Luke 16:17 doesn't really provide for that, now does it?) how the circumcision law failed?

D.A. Wright said:

Bravo, Good Show! You Won!

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Thanks, I appreciate that. Circumcision is no longer a valid law and Paul warned strongly against anyone trying to follow that law.

Galatians 3:1-2
O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?

Circumcision like the Sabbath law are works of the law and that point cannot be debated.

Galatians 6:13
For even those who are circumcised do not themselves keep the law, but they desire to have you circumcised that they may boast in your flesh.

D.A. Wright said:

Oh, could you maybe explain exactly (not figuratively or abstractly, as Luke 16:17 doesn't really provide for that, now does it?) how the circumcision law failed?

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Not one letter of the law can fail to achieve what it was designed to deliver by God. If circumcision is no longer a necessary law to be enforced on the Gentiles. Then this means that Gentiles are not under the law.

Circumcision is the first law enacted on any male convert to Judaism. You must be circumcised and you must learn the law and obey the law.

Circumcision is the outward sign to the Jews of membership in the law of Moses. All Abraham's descendants were circumcised, all Jewish males were circumcised.

The importance of circumcision can never be under estimated. The wider significance is Gentiles are not grafted into a Jewish olive tree but are simply grafted into the root. The root of the olive tree is Jesus Christ.

No circumcision means no law!

klutedavid said:

So why do nearly all church organizations regard the Sabbath as a ceremonial law or even a sign of the old covenant. None of them ever call the Sabbath a moral law, you need to think about that. Circumcision is not a moral law and nor is the Sabbath law.

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Excellent job of completely glossing over my remark. I acknowledge fully that modern, evangelical, pop theology dismisses the 4th commandment as irrelevant. Millions of people also pay to shorten the lengths of their dearly departed ones' stay in purgatory. What does that prove? I don't know why people do what they do. That's ascribing motive--God's business. I know why I do what I do.

klutedavid said:

The name of your church is Seventh Day ADVENTIST.

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Thanks for reminding me what church I belong to. You'd be handy to have around if I ever forgot it.

klutedavid said:

Your shouting at me with that name, just two things, the first thing is the SABBATH day.

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When did I shout? Do you mean the quotes? I was just quoting you. Okay, I'm confused.

Anyway, you didn't ask me what "Seventh-day Adventist" means. (Is it ok to use quotes? Did I miss an announcement about a new forum rule or something?) You asked me what 'Adventist' means, to be exact. And your definition is wacky. The birth of Christ is commonly referred to as "the time of the advent" throughout Christendom. The second coming of Christ is similarly known as the 2nd advent.

klutedavid said:

Not just a physical return of Jesus Christ

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Whatever you say.

klutedavid said:

The NASB is a literal translation of the Greek text.

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So are many others, which differ.

klutedavid said:

there is only a low level of theological bias.

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Sorry, there is always an indeterminate amount of theological bias. The claims of the translators, no matter how methodically the translation panel was selected mean little, if anything. Humans (yes, even me) preconceive.

klutedavid said:

What translation do you use?

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I use them all, brother. I wanna know what's goin' on. I find Young's Literal Translation very helpful at times and I like Bible Hub and STEP Bible. And I really dig Hebrew and Greek dictionaries.

klutedavid said:

I hope you do not say KJV.

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Well, I gotta admit, as a former Southern Baptist, I was raised on it, and it makes for fairly easy memorization, but I did grow up and find out that πάσχα (pascha) does not mean "Easter" (Acts 12:4).

klutedavid said:

Your duty to God for a Gentile is explained in some detail in Paul's letters.

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I consider myself just a man, not a non-something, which is what a gentile is.
There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. (Galatians 3:28) NIV
So I consider my duty to God as just a man:
The end of the whole matter let us hear: -- 'Fear God, and keep His commands, for this is the whole of man. (Ecclesiastes 12:13) YLT
Notice: I didn't even quote one that inserts the word "duty."

klutedavid said:

God made circumcision and that law will never fail.

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Sorry, I thought you were being facetious here. Please disregard other reples to this.