Dispensationalism - Open Discussion

food4thought

Loving truth
Site Supporter
Jul 9, 2002
2,929
725
50
Watervliet, MI
✟383,729.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
We have been having a conversation ... you have put forth what you believe and vice versa. I thought we WERE having honest dialog ... it's just that we believe differently.

The posts have been rather long all ready. That's why I asked in my original post to address the "sub-topic" of discussion by number and title (of which no one in this thread has done) in which I provided some scriptural references.



and ... I thought that's what we were doing.

God bless you as you seek to follow our Lord, Michael

Yes, we did get off the topic of the rapture. It happened rather naturally as we responded to each other, though. The question I asked in post #80 has a purpose, though, in relation to our differences on Biblical interpretation, which I think is foundational to any discussion we have regarding the Bible.

I think a better question for our purposes is this: did the crucifixion actually happen as a historical event? If so, what does this say about the interpretation of OT prophecies like Isaiah 53 and Psalms 22?
 
Upvote 0

eleos1954

God is Love
Site Supporter
Nov 14, 2017
9,803
5,655
Utah
✟721,368.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Yes, we did get off the topic of the rapture. It happened rather naturally as we responded to each other, though. The question I asked in post #80 has a purpose, though, in relation to our differences on Biblical interpretation, which I think is foundational to any discussion we have regarding the Bible.

I think a better question for our purposes is this: did the crucifixion actually happen as a historical event? If so, what does this say about the interpretation of OT prophecies like Isaiah 53 and Psalms 22?

Regarding your Post #80

Let me be the first to reach out in the spirit of my previous post:

The Exodus of Israel from Egypt, did it literally happen?

Yes Jesus' crucifixion was an actual historical event.



Isaiah 53 is a prophesy (vision) about Jesus (the suffering servant)
same with Psalms 22 - basically (not exclusively) talking about His experience He would endure at the cross

Isaiah 53 & Pslams 22 are both prophetic visions surrounding Jesus and what His "experiences" would be.
 
Upvote 0

food4thought

Loving truth
Site Supporter
Jul 9, 2002
2,929
725
50
Watervliet, MI
✟383,729.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Regarding your Post #80

Yes, thank you. Did the 10 plagues actually happen as Exodus describes?

Yes Jesus' crucifixion was an actual historical event.

Thank you. I assumed you believed as much, and I probably didn't even need to ask that, sorry.

Isaiah 53 is a prophesy (vision) about Jesus (the suffering servant)
same with Psalms 22 - basically (not exclusively) talking about His experience He would endure at the cross

Isaiah 53 & Pslams 22 are both prophetic visions surrounding Jesus and what His "experiences" would be.

Would you say that these prophecies were literally fulfilled, or were they all metaphorical, meaning something else than what they literally predicted?
 
Upvote 0

eleos1954

God is Love
Site Supporter
Nov 14, 2017
9,803
5,655
Utah
✟721,368.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Yes, thank you. Did the 10 plagues actually happen as Exodus describes?

Thank you. I assumed you believed as much, and I probably didn't even need to ask that, sorry.

Yes the plagues on Egypt actually happened during that time in history.

Would you say that these prophecies were literally fulfilled, or were they all metaphorical, meaning something else than what they literally predicted?

They were literally fulfilled during that time in history ... but later on are referenced used metaphorically/symbolically in various places in scripture.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

food4thought

Loving truth
Site Supporter
Jul 9, 2002
2,929
725
50
Watervliet, MI
✟383,729.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
They were literally fulfilled during that time in history ... but later on are referenced used metaphorically/symbolically in various places in scripture.

Thank you for replying, eleos1954. I could say quite a bit more about this, but I am deliberately trying to keep my posts short and to the point. I must say I am surprised at your answer!

Isaiah 53:6 NKJV All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned, every one, to his own way; And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.

This is only metaphorically speaking of Jesus? And how could anyone of that generation of people possibly literally fulfill this?

Isaiah 53:10 NKJV Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief. When You make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days, And the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in His hand.​

Same here. This is only a metaphor? Am I only metaphorically saved? And how could anyone else in all history literally be made an offering for sin?

As for Psalms 22, I do not see anywhere in Scripture where King David experienced all that Psalms 22 describes...
 
Upvote 0

eleos1954

God is Love
Site Supporter
Nov 14, 2017
9,803
5,655
Utah
✟721,368.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Thank you for replying, eleos1954. I could say quite a bit more about this, but I am deliberately trying to keep my posts short and to the point. I must say I am surprised at your answer!

Isaiah 53:6 NKJV All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned, every one, to his own way; And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.

This is only metaphorically speaking of Jesus? And how could anyone of that generation of people possibly literally fulfill this?

Isaiah 53:10 NKJV Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief. When You make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days, And the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in His hand.​

Same here. This is only a metaphor? Am I only metaphorically saved? And how could anyone else in all history literally be made an offering for sin?

As for Psalms 22, I do not see anywhere in Scripture where King David experienced all that Psalms 22 describes..[/QUOTE
Isaiah 53:6 NKJV All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned, every one, to his own way; And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.

This is only metaphorically speaking of Jesus? And how could anyone of that generation of people possibly literally fulfill this?
[/QUOTE]

This is prophesy in regard to Jesus crucifixion ... same with Isaiah 53:10

Using something metaphorically and prophesy are two different things.

Metaphors are used fugitively (and are not necessarily prophetic) ... prophesy is predicting something that will actually happen.

The "literal" we were talking about was in regard to the Israelites being brought out of Egypt and yes that literally happened.

You are misunderstanding my answers and/are making assumptions/statements of what I am saying in error.

Don't need to respond right away ... I am going on vacation for about 7 days. ;o)
 
Upvote 0

food4thought

Loving truth
Site Supporter
Jul 9, 2002
2,929
725
50
Watervliet, MI
✟383,729.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
This is prophesy in regard to Jesus crucifixion ... same with Isaiah 53:10

Using something metaphorically and prophesy are two different things.

Metaphors are used fugitively (and are not necessarily prophetic) ... prophesy is predicting something that will actually happen.

Agreed.

The "literal" we were talking about was in regard to the Israelites being brought out of Egypt and yes that literally happened.

Ahhh… I see, thanks for clearing that up. And am I correct in understanding that this is also what you were talking about when you said it was later used metaphorically?

You are misunderstanding my answers and/are making assumptions/statements of what I am saying in error.

Sorry for misunderstanding. If you could please make it clearer what part of my post you are responding to, that would be very helpful.

Now, to the reason I started this line of thought. Do you perceive the fulfillments of OT prophecies as being (for the most part) literally fulfilled? If so, and I think that it is plain that they were, for the most part, literally fulfilled, why take NT prophecy in the book of Revelation as being not literally fulfilled? A literal interpretation of prophecy inevitably leads to premillennialism, not historicism. So my question is: why do you hold to historicism?
 
Upvote 0

Biblewriter

Senior Member
Site Supporter
May 15, 2005
11,935
1,498
Ocala, Florida
Visit site
✟531,725.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
I have been busy elsewhere, and so did not see this thread until now. I appreciate the desire of that this should be a civil discussion. But the opponents of Dispensationalism are often less than civil in such discussions, and not all the Dispensationalists are always civil. o this is a difficult proposition, as has been the case in this thread.

But I must observe that there have been so many errors made in this discussion that it wold take many posts to even point them all out. Among these errors is a basic, almost fundamental, lack of understanding about what Dispensationalists believe and teach.

But the error I will treat in this post is not even about doctrine, but about the history of the concept of Dispensationaliusm. The errors about the history of this concept which have been made by several of those who have posted in this thread are understandable because they have been so widely circulated that many have sinply assumed that they are actual fact. But they have been conclusively proven to be incorrect.

It indeed seems to be correct that J. N. Darby was the first teacher to pull all the various doctrines of Dispensationalism into a single package and label them as a system of doctrine. But it is completely incorrect to say that Dispensationalism began with Darby, or that he "invented" it, as some claim. Nor did it begin with Francisco Ribera or even Manuel Lacunza. This has been documented by many researchers. But the two key documents in this matter are two recently published books The first of these is "Dispensationalism Before Darby: Seventeenth-Century and Eighteenth-Century English Apocalypticism,” By William C. Watson, published in 2015 by Lampion Press, Silverton, OR 97381, ISBN 978-1-942614-03-6.

Watson's study traced a very large number of Dispensational concepts, including a few cases of full Dispensationalism, that were published in England long before the 1800s..

Watson’s study covers mainly a period of a hundred and fifty years shortly following the publication of the King James Translation of the Bible. This publication had, for the first time in history, made Bibles readily available in the common language at a price ordinary people could afford. The result was a veritable explosion of Bible study and commentary throughout the English speaking world. So, about 30 years later, in the 1640s, many commentaries began to appear in the English language. These, based on scripture, rather than on what “scholars” had taught the writers, contained a huge amount of truth that had long been forgotten.

This, as noted above, was published in the year 2015. this was followed, three years later by "Ancient Dispensational Truth," by James C. Morris, (yep - that's me) published in 2018 by Dispensational Publishing House, Taos, NM 8765761, ISBN: 978-1-945774-29-4.

In this book I presented hard proof, in the form of exact quotations with specific citations, of all the central concepts of Dispensationalism having been taught, and clearly taught, in some of the very oldest Christian commentaries on Bible prophecy that have survived to the present day.


This included a systematic usage of the term "Dispensatioins" to describe the various periods of time during which God dealt with His people in various ways, clear statements about a future evil person that they called "the Antichrist," a return of the Jews to their ancient homeland and their conversion to Christ after they returned, a future fulfillment of the seventieth week of Daniel's prophecy, AND a rapture before the great tribulation. ALL of this was taught, and CLEARLY taught, before the great council of Niicea, which is commonly thought of as the division between the moist ancient and less ancient "Church Fathers."
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

eleos1954

God is Love
Site Supporter
Nov 14, 2017
9,803
5,655
Utah
✟721,368.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
I have been busy elsewhere, and so did not see this thread until now. I appreciate the desire of that this should be a civil discussion. But the opponents of Dispensationalism are often less than civil in such discussions, and not all the Dispensationalists are always civil. o this is a difficult proposition, as has been the case in this thread.

But I must observe that there have been so many errors made in this discussion that it wold take many posts to even point them all out. Among these errors is a basic, almost fundamental, lack of understanding about what Dispensationalists believe and teach.

But the error I will treat in this post is not even about doctrine, but about the history of the concept of Dispensationaliusm. The errors about the history of this concept which have been made by several of those who have posted in this thread are understandable because they have been so widely circulated that many have sinply assumed that they are actual fact. But they have been conclusively proven to be incorrect.

It indeed seems to be correct that J. N. Darby was the first teacher to pull all the various doctrines of Dispensationalism into a single package and label them as a system of doctrine. But it is completely incorrect to say that Dispensationalism began with Darby, or that he "invented" it, as some claim. Nor did it begin with Francisco Ribera or even Manuel Lacunza. This has been documented by many researchers. But the two key documents in this matter are two recently published books The first of these is "Dispensationalism Before Darby: Seventeenth-Century and Eighteenth-Century English Apocalypticism,” By William C. Watson, published in 2015 by Lampion Press, Silverton, OR 97381, ISBN 978-1-942614-03-6.

Watson's study traced a very large number of Dispensational concepts, including a few cases of full Dispensationalism, that were published in England long before the 1800s..

Watson’s study covers mainly a period of a hundred and fifty years shortly following the publication of the King James Translation of the Bible. This publication had, for the first time in history, made Bibles readily available in the common language at a price ordinary people could afford. The result was a veritable explosion of Bible study and commentary throughout the English speaking world. So, about 30 years later, in the 1640s, many commentaries began to appear in the English language. These, based on scripture, rather than on what “scholars” had taught the writers, contained a huge amount of truth that had long been forgotten.

This, as noted above, was published in the year 2015. this was followed, three years later by "Ancient Dispensational Truth," by James C. Morris, (yep - that's me) published in 2018 by Dispensational Publishing House, Taos, NM 8765761, ISBN: 978-1-945774-29-4.

In this book I presented hard proof, in the form of exact quotations with specific citations, of all the central concepts of Dispensationalism having been taught, and clearly taught, in some of the very oldest Christian commentaries on Bible prophecy that have survived to the present day.


This included a systematic usage of the term "Dispensatioins" to describe the various periods of time during which God dealt with His people in various ways, clear statements about a future evil person that they called "the Antichrist," a return of the Jews to their ancient homeland and their conversion to Christ after they returned, a future fulfillment of the seventieth week of Daniel's prophecy, AND a rapture before the great tribulation. ALL of this was taught,m and CLEARLY taught, before the great council of Niicea, which is commonly thought of as the division between the moist ancient and less ancient "Church Fathers."

Please provide links to documentation that supports your statements.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Biblewriter

Senior Member
Site Supporter
May 15, 2005
11,935
1,498
Ocala, Florida
Visit site
✟531,725.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
Please provide links to documentation that supports your statements.
I was reporting on original research done by myself and included in my book. So there is no website showing this. But if you like I can give you a few quotations from my book,with citations so you can check them out for yourself on websites that have the entire books from which they come.
 
Upvote 0

eleos1954

God is Love
Site Supporter
Nov 14, 2017
9,803
5,655
Utah
✟721,368.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
I was reporting on original research done by myself and included in my book. So there is no website showing this. But if you like I can give you a few quotations from my book,with citations so you can check them out for yourself on websites that have the entire books from which they come.

I only use the bible, and greek & hebrew lexicons and a concordance ... but thanks anyways.
 
Upvote 0

Biblewriter

Senior Member
Site Supporter
May 15, 2005
11,935
1,498
Ocala, Florida
Visit site
✟531,725.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
I only use the bible, and greek & hebrew lexicons and a concordance ... but thanks anyways.
You are the one that brought up the claim, that was not based on the Bible, that J. N. Darby was the first one to teach dispensationalism. And you were the one that brought up the claim, that was not based on the Bible, that Darby got his ideas from two Jesuit priests. So it is, frankly, hypocritical for you, when confronted with HARD PROOF that these extra-Biblical claims are not true, to suddenly claim that you "only use the Bible, and greek & hebrew lexicons and a concordance."

For I have indeed published HARD PROOF that the basic doctrines of dispensationalism go all the way back to both the very oldest surviving Christian commentary on Bible prophecy (of any significant length) and the very oldest surviving Christian commentary on scripture (as opposed to a commentary on a scriptural subject.) If you are not interested in examining that proof, that is your responsibility. For in deciding to not examine it, you have chosen to remain ignorant of the actual facts about which you are contending.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Christian Gedge

Well-Known Member
Nov 29, 2017
1,214
1,361
Waikato
Visit site
✟227,210.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I'm late to this discussion, but would like to offer the following comparison chart of covenant and dispensational theologies:

Dispensationalism
  1. God has two distinct people – Israel and the Church.
  2. The Church age was a parenthesis in God’s dealing with Israel.
  3. God’s promises to Israel were postponed till after the rapture.
  4. After a Jewish tribulation revival, their ‘dispensation’ will resume.
  5. Worship in the millennium includes re-instituted temple sacrifice.
  6. The promised temple is an example of what must yet be fulfilled.
  7. Modern Israel proves not all promises are fulfilled in the Church.

Covenant Theology
  1. God has always only had but one spiritual people.
  2. The Church (incl. Jew & Gentile) actually is true Israel.
  3. God’s promises to Israel are fulfilled in Christ’s Church.
  4. There will be a revival of Jews but it will be into the Church.
  5. Redemption is in the cross and sacrifice is finished forever.
  6. Even if a temple gets rebuilt it is unnecessary and irrelevant.
  7. The modern restoration of the nation of Israel is coincidental.
Note on #1: When dispensationalists say God has two people, they are referring to Israel (an ethnic group) and the Church. (a spiritual group) When covenant theology says God has one people they are referring to ‘Spiritual Israel’ (a single entity consisting of saints from every tribe)

Note on #3: Covenant theology applies the geographical land promises to the Church figuratively.

Note on #5: Dispensationalists either infer or state that the entire levitical system will be repeated in the Millennium. Moderates think that it will simply serve as a ‘reminder’ of Christ’s death. Extreme dispensationalists infer that it will be the basis of millennium atonement. In either case all disps. accord an elite position to ethnic Israel in the millennium.
 
Upvote 0

Guojing

Well-Known Member
Apr 11, 2019
11,844
1,311
sg
✟217,541.00
Country
Singapore
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Always wonder who was the first who realized that Jesus was only sent to the Jews in the 4 Gospels, and that none of the 12 understood Jesus's death burial and resurrection. Jesus was proclaiming to them he is their promised Messiah and King. The Gentiles had nothing to do with that promise at all.

I know it is all in the Scripture but its only when someone told me that, then I look to the scripture to verify that it was indeed true. Every church then taught me that John 3:16 was about Jesus's death burial and resurrection.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Biblewriter

Senior Member
Site Supporter
May 15, 2005
11,935
1,498
Ocala, Florida
Visit site
✟531,725.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
Note on #5: Dispensationalists either infer or state that the entire levitical system will be repeated in the Millennium. Moderates think that it will simply serve as a ‘reminder’ of Christ’s death. Extreme dispensationalists infer that it will be the basis of millennium atonement. In either case all disps. accord an elite position to ethnic Israel in the millennium.

Actually, the system described in the later chapters of Ezekiel is distinctly different from the system described in the law of Moses. So, although the millennial system indeed inludes animal sacrifices, it is not a return to the law of Moses, but a new system of worship, different from both the present and the last systems presented in scripture.
 
Upvote 0

Christian Gedge

Well-Known Member
Nov 29, 2017
1,214
1,361
Waikato
Visit site
✟227,210.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Actually, the system described in the later chapters of Ezekiel is distinctly different from the system described in the law of Moses. So, although the millennial system indeed inlcudes animal sacrifices, it is not a return to the law of Moses, but a new system of worship, different from both the present and the last systems presented in scripture.

Thanks, that's why I tried in my abbreviated note to differentiate between moderate and extreme viewpoints. Nevertheless, all Dispensationalists revive a system that was designed to be a 'type' until the reality in Christ appeared. That 'shadow' was fulfilled in Christ's death, Im sure you will agree. (Hebrews 10:1-18)

Also Disps. infer an elite position to ethnic Israel in the millennium. That is inconsistent with New Testament understanding.
 
Upvote 0

Biblewriter

Senior Member
Site Supporter
May 15, 2005
11,935
1,498
Ocala, Florida
Visit site
✟531,725.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
Thanks, that's why I tried in my abbreviated note to differentiate between moderate and extreme viewpoints. Nevertheless, all Dispensationalists revive a system that was designed to be a 'type' until the reality in Christ appeared. That 'shadow' was fulfilled in Christ's death, Im sure you will agree. (Hebrews 10:1-18)

Also Disps. infer an elite position to ethnic Israel in the millennium. That is inconsistent with New Testament understanding.
No, this is only inconsistent with interpretations some people make of certain New Testament passages. It is clearly and explicitly taught in the Old Testament.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0