Dispensationalism - Open Discussion

food4thought · Oct 8, 2019

... aren't you in the book of life?

I have received the Lord Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. I am born again. Do you sincerely doubt my salvation because I believe in a pre-trib rapture and a distinction between the church and Israel?

are you a Jew?

No.

He returns [at the pre-trib rapture] and then the resurrection (of the saved dead) and those alive at the time are translated and taken to heaven.

Fixed that for you

It does not say He will set up His millennial kingdom in 1st Thessalonians 4 ... it says .... we (all the saved) will be with the Lord.

Because the millennial kingdom will not be set up until after the tribulation and the 2nd coming, and the passage is speaking specifically of the rapture.

It does not say only those who died in the tribulation

But the passage in Revelation does... perhaps we are looking at two separate passages speaking of two separate events.

... it says the dead will rise first

Yes, at the rapture.

... nor does it say anything about 7 years earlier.

No, but the differences between these two events plainly imply two different events separated by a period of time. This is not unusual in Scripture. Look at these two passages:

Luke 4:17-21 NASB And the book of the prophet Isaiah was handed to Him. And He opened the book and found the place where it was written, (18) "THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS UPON ME, BECAUSE HE ANOINTED ME TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THE POOR. HE HAS SENT ME TO PROCLAIM RELEASE TO THE CAPTIVES, AND RECOVERY OF SIGHT TO THE BLIND, TO SET FREE THOSE WHO ARE OPPRESSED, (19) TO PROCLAIM THE FAVORABLE YEAR OF THE LORD." (20) And He closed the book, gave it back to the attendant and sat down; and the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on Him. (21) And He began to say to them, "Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing."

and

Isaiah 61:1-4 NASB The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me, Because the LORD has anointed me To bring good news to the afflicted; He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to captives And freedom to prisoners; (2) To proclaim the favorable year of the LORD And the day of vengeance of our God; To comfort all who mourn, (3) To grant those who mourn in Zion, Giving them a garland instead of ashes, The oil of gladness instead of mourning, The mantle of praise instead of a spirit of fainting. So they will be called oaks of righteousness, The planting of the LORD, that He may be glorified. (4) Then they will rebuild the ancient ruins, They will raise up the former devastations; And they will repair the ruined cities, The desolations of many generations.

Now Jesus quotes the part of the passage that deals with His Incarnation, yet the passage in Isaiah 62 plainly includes "...the day of vengeance of our God". This is the time surrounding His 2nd coming, and continuing into the millennial kingdom. These are two separate periods of time, and they are included in the same OT passage. Also, look at this passage in Isaiah:

Isaiah 65:17-20 NASB "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former things will not be remembered or come to mind. (18) "But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create; For behold, I create Jerusalem for rejoicing And her people for gladness. (19) "I will also rejoice in Jerusalem and be glad in My people; And there will no longer be heard in her The voice of weeping and the sound of crying. (20) "No longer will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, Or an old man who does not live out his days; For the youth will die at the age of one hundred And the one who does not reach the age of one hundred Will be thought accursed.

This passage describes both the millennial kingdom (verse 20) and the eternal state (verse 17), but they are mentioned together as though it was one thing. The book of Revelation clears this up for us, but just note that Matthew 24 is not alone in combining two events into one passage without clearly separating the two.

All the saved dead for all times are resurrected

True, just not at the same time. What about the faithful dead at the end of the millennial kingdom? When are they resurrected? It has to be after the kingdom age and before the eternal state. There are plainly more than two resurrections.

... they have been asleep in the grave

So you believe in soul sleep?

... the dead in Christ rise first ... Just as 1 Thessalonians 4 in it's entirety states. (shall not precede - none go before those who have previously died - asleep in the grave)

Yes, the rapture will include those who are dead in Christ and the OT saints.

1 Thessalonians 4

The Return of the Lord

13Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.

15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain (the saved still on earth) will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

18Therefore encourage one another with these words.

I believe every word.

His people ARE on earth and do go through the great tribulation ... until He returns

Not according to 1Thessalonians 5:9 and Revelation 3:10.

EVERYBODY saved and unsaved to go through the great tribulation

No, not the church/body of Christ.

... there is no special (or secret) rapture.

The rapture is not "secret". It is clearly implied in the Scriptures, and it will be a worldwide event that everyone will see happen.

No doubt We Disagree on the "secret rapture theory".

Obviously. Again, it is not a "secret" rapture.

His return is going to be a loud and powerful event ... with a voice of an archangel, trumpet of God (not a secret one) ... and the 1st resurrection happens.

Not sure where you got the idea that the rapture is somehow "secret".

1 Thessalonians 4

16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise.

Yes, this is speaking of the rapture.

From then on we are with the Lord.

Yep.

John 14

1“Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe in Me as well. 2In My Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I am going away to prepare a place for you? 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and welcome you into My presence, so that you also may be where I am. 4You know the way to the place where I am going.”

Where is Jesus? He's in heaven in His Father's house (the place where he was going (above). He will welcome us there in His presence (in heaven)

Praise God!!! Yes, and then we will accompany Him back to earth at His 2nd coming to set up the millennial kingdom (Jude 1:14-15; Revelation 19:14; Revelation 20:4-10).

No ... at the 1st resurrection, when He returns in all His glory and takes ALL the saved to heaven.

Not that I like repeating myself over and over, but the 1st resurrection in Revelation 20 is only for the martyrs from the tribulation. Here it is, again:

Revelation 20:4-6 NASB Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. (5) The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. (6) Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

Romans 9

It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.

Dealt with this already.

Galatians 3

26You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise.

Yes, those in the body of Christ are one. This is not true of those who are not part of the NT church... Israel is distinct from the church.

Romans 10

12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile--the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him,

and so it is ... all the saved are ONE in Christ Jesus and there is no distinction.

Again, this is not true of those who are not part of the NT church.

So .. if one finds themselves stuck in the "nation of Israel box" or the "Jew box" ... then agreement on many things isn't possible.

Except that distinction is what the Bible clearly teaches. True, until I can help you see this, agreement on many things will be impossible.

Mainly the dividing issues are:

The state of the dead - asleep in the grave until His return

Except Paul said this (and I am sure you have heard this verse):

2 Corinthians 5:6-8 NASB Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord— (7) for we walk by faith, not by sight— (8) we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.

Looking forward to reading your explanation of that verse.

Who is God's "Israel" - all who are in Christ.

Again, show me a few verses that say this explicitly.

The elect - are all who are in Christ

All those in the body of Christ are the elect, but not all the elect are part of the body of Christ. OT saints, tribulation saints, and those who come to faith during the millennium are distinct groups.

Therefore, if you (or others) believe there is special treatment for the nation Israel and the Jews .... really it is pretty futile for us to continue conversation on the matter.

I'm not sure what you mean by special treatment. God is not through with literal Israel... He made specific promises to them that were never fulfilled. If God can break His promises to Israel, what are we to make of His promises to us?

Are you not even curious about why we believe in this distinction? Or have you pre-judged our position without looking at the basis for our belief?

Acts 10

34Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism 35but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right

We are ALL the same (One) in Christ Jesus.

This passage is speaking of the NT church; but this was not true in the OT, was it?

thomas15 · Oct 9, 2019

I'm struggling to understand the actual purpose of this thread. The OP states plainly that he/she is not a dispensationalist but has a desire to understand this school of theology. Nothing wrong with that, actually a good thing.

A snip from the OP....

eleos1954 said:
Firstly, I am not a proponent of dispensational teaching, but do seek others learning and understanding about it. That is ... people believe differently for reasons ... what are those reasons and what biblical support and historical support is there for those reasons.

It is interesting that the OP is looking for Biblical support for a system of theology that he/she has already decided to reject. Should not the adventure seeker approach this with an open mind, regardless of the particular theological school that is being studied?

eleos1954 said:
It is important to visit and/or re-visit history as well. People have forgotten and/or are not aware of the "roots" of certain theologies/teachings (especially "protestants") ... that is ... where did the different teachings come from? How did they "evolve". Being ill informed/not informed/confused ... stemming from their own laziness or ignorance (or both) to do research on their own. Not all ... but many.

Since the OP states right up from that is "not for the faint of heart" allow me to test that statement.

Has the OP studied how covenant theology (and/or Catholic or Orthodox) has evolved and where it came from? Does the OP realize that the early body of believers in Christ were as a majority futurists and looking for a literal return of Christ and an earthly kingdom similar to what the dispensationalists teach now?

Who exactly is the OP calling "lazy, ignorant or both"? What is the standard that the OP is using to determine laziness and/or ignorance? Could the OP provide detail with respect to the claim that "especially protestants" have forgotten and/or not aware of the "roots" of certain theologies and possibly identify those "certain theologies"? And could someone offer some insight to bolster the inference that non-protestants have not forgotten the "roots" of "certain theologies."

eleos1954 · Oct 9, 2019

Couldn't include all of your full quote ... due to this forums character limitations

***

"I don't think this avoids the problem. Birth pains are definitely not business as usual. Labor is not a time when people eat and drink like normal, nor do they perform wedding ceremonies in the birth room"

Understand birth pangs (labor pains) ... they start start out small and infrequent ... and then over time become more frequent and increase in intensity .... like I said .... the business as usual ... the tribulation escalates just like birth pangs. So for a while it (the tribulation) will be business as usual ... progressive, and eventually building to the point where it's almost unbearable.

"notably, this indicates that the people of God who go through the tribulation will not be protected as you seem to think."

As stated several times .... the terrible time ... toward the end of the great tribulation ... will be cut short.

"Revelation 7:9-17 indicates that there will be an innumerable group of God's people who will be martyred during the tribulation, so..."

Yes, this is true ... during the short time towards the end of the great tribulation, christians will be severely persecuted and martyred.

"The OT people I mentioned were types of God protecting His people by removing them before His judgments fell. This was not always the case, true, but it happened."

Yes .... many times (I would say most times) Gods people go through tribulation and God protects them from the worst of it. And He will protect His people from the "worst" of the great tribulation ... again ... do not ignore .... the time will be cut short.

"So you thin there is nothing unique or special about the NT? God worked with Jew and Gentile in the same way during the Old Covenant? Those saved in the OT were indwelt and sealed by the Holy Spirit permanently, as the body of Christ is now? We do not have a unique relationship to Christ as His body? There most obviously is a distinction between the church and the OT saints. Similarly, there will be a distinction between the body of Christ and those saved during the great tribulation. All the saved are elect for salvation because of the person and work of Jesus Christ, but God dealt with His people in different ways during different times. This is obvious, and is the very heart of dispensational teaching."

The OT saints were saved the same way we are. Through grace by faith. They saw the promise of the coming Messiah ... are saved through the blood of Jesus.

John 8:56
New Living Translation
Your father Abraham rejoiced as he looked forward to my coming. He saw it and was glad.

Genesis 15:6
Abram believed the LORD, and it was credited to him as righteousness.

Romans 4:9
Is this blessing only on the circumcised, or also on the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham's faith was credited as righteousness.

Romans 4:22
That is why "it was credited to him as righteousness.

Galatians 3:6
So also, Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.

James 2:23
And the Scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called a friend of God.

" dispensationalist I know of is saying the church never suffers persecution. However, His bride, the body of Christ, is not destined to undergo the wrath of God poured out during the great tribulation."

AGAIN .... it will be CUT SHORT ...

"No argument here. Note that the Lord said He would "keep the FROM (not through) the hour of testing"."

The hour of testing is the time-frame (cut short) where people (including the Lords people) do ... or do not ... accept the mark of the beast. This happens during the later part of the great tribulation .... many will compromise their faith in an "effort" to stop the persecutions and horrors ... just like they did in the past.

"the church never suffers persecution"

You think not? Go back and visit or re-visit the dark ages ... and the Spanish inquisition. Not only severe persecution of christians ... but persecution from a "religious system". So it will be in the end times.

"The mark of the beast occurs long before the 2nd coming."

We do not know the day or time He comes .... period.

"You cannot possibly interpret this passage as speaking of Israel as the church!"

Are you a member of the Lords church? Yes of course. His church are those in Him. The sheep are scattered. The elect (the called out ones) transcends all "organized church systems" and nations (the believing Jews are grafted back into the tree). As you know and all of us know ... each of us has a personal relationship with Christ and that relationship is NOT contingent on any "affiliation" of any kind other than those in Christ.

Israel is NOT Israel. Jew is not a Jew ... we are ALL the same in Christ Jesus. His church IS all believers ... believers ARE His Israel ... His people.

The woman ... or the women in revelation. There is a pure woman ... representing all those in Christ (His bride (a woman), His church) The impure woman ... the apostate church systems.

"All Christians are one in Him, whether Jew or gentile, male or female, slave or free. Can you show me a few verses that say the OT saints are part of the body of Christ?"

OT saints Knew a Messiah was Coming

With the limited knowledge of God given to them at the time, the Old Testament saints understood God would have to do something dramatic to save them. They placed their faith in the coming Savior who was described from the earliest of times. God told Adam and Eve one of their descendants would eventually defeat Satan Genesis 3:15 , and Abraham understood God would provide a sacrifice for sin, just as God provided the substitutionary sacrifice to replace Isaac Genesis 22:8, Romans 4:3 John 8:56 . Job had a similar expectation and hope for a Redeemer Job 19:25-26 , and Moses also expected and believed in the coming Messiah and the reward of Salvation Hebrews 11:26 , John 5:46 . Many other Old Testament prophets and wise men spoke about the coming Savior. Enoch, for example, even talked about the second coming of the Messiah Jude 14 ! Old Testament prophets clearly described where the Messiah would be born Micah 5:2 , how He would be betrayed Zechariah 11:12 , how He would die Isaiah 53:5 , and how He would be resurrected Psalm 16:10 , Isaiah 26:19 .

Old Testament saints understood their imperfect works would not unite them to a perfect God. They looked forward to the work of a flawless Messiah who would be “pierced through for our transgressions”, “crushed for our iniquities” and chastened “for our well-being” so that “by His scourging we are healed” Isaiah 53:5 . Those who understood and accepted the truth about grace and the coming Messiah were saved on the basis of their faith. The Savior has now appeared and His name is Jesus. We have today what the Old Testament saints only anticipated. Jesus is, as He always was, the Messiah and the only way to the Father.

"Can you give me just three verses that explicitly say the church is Israel?"

I already did .... several times. We (believers) walk in the spirit ... not in the literal. Gods Israel is spiritual .. not physical.

Whether they are Jewish or Gentile, God regards only those who have renewed hearts as true Israelites. It's in the Bible. "For he is not a Jew which is one outwardly, nor is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew which is one inwardly, and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, and not in the letter' whose praise is not from men but from God." Romans 2:28,29 . "For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh."
Philippians 3:3

"Can you show me a verse that says the church will go through THE great tribulation?"

The "church" are Gods people ... ALL those in Christ.

I have and I have and I have .... you keep ignoring ... the great tribulation will be CUT SHORT for the sake of the elect ... how much will they/we endure? We do not know (do not know the day or time) ... but we do know we will experience it until He returns and then 1st resurrection happens.

"Are you saying that Enoch and Elijah had a better relationship than those who are born again, Holy Spirit indwelt, and adopted by God through Christ?"

No, I brought this up as I thought your were using their (translation) in regard to them being "taken away" as a deliverance from tribulations ... and that was not why they were taken to heaven. They were taken to heaven because they walked with God ... ie found to be righteous (if I misunderstood, I apologize)

"It is interesting, and important, to note that this warning was directed to Jewish believers. Look at this verse from the same passage:

Matthew 24:20 NASB "But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath.
What does the church care about the Sabbath? This warning about the abomination of desolation is clearly directed towards Israel."

If you believe the passage is only directed to "Jewish believers" then are you saying that only the literal Jews will go through the great tribulation?

It is true a lot of the "churches" dismisses the keeping of the Lords Sabbath in error.

All are called to walk in the steps of Jesus and He kept the Sabbath and so did all the apostles. Jesus IS God and who knows more about God than God? He is Lord (master) of the Sabbath. It is important to Him ... therefore important to us. His steps ... includes keeping the Sabbath.

You (and others) believe and hold on to a literal Israel ... and Gods Israel is spiritual. This is a major difference in why we believe differently.

There are going to be believers who come to Christ after the rapture, surely.

No ... there are not second chances after He returns. All decide now ... before their earthly death and/or before His 2nd coming.

When Christ comes the 1st resurrection happens and all the saved for all times are taken to heaven with Him and the 1,000 years are spent in heaven with Him.

(the unsaved living at that time are destroyed and lay dead on the earth)

Revelation 19:17-18 (the birds feast of those destroyed (all unsaved) and left dead on the earth)

“Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, ‘Come and gather together for the supper of the great God, that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great.'”

"Notice it speaks of the "nation" Israel. This is directed at ethnic Israel, not the church."

Daniel 12:1

At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time (during the short time). But at that time (end of the short time) your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book (of life).

NOTICE .... WHOSE NAME SHALL BE FOUND WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF LIFE... ALL the saved ... not just "ethnic literal Israel".

". and later in history through the NT ... we find are taught that not all who are all Israel are Israel (referring to the book of life (above)
Not sure what you are trying to say here..."

What I was referring to was we are taught in the NT that it is not about literal Israel ... we are taught the Lords Israel is spiritual ... not physical/literal.

Romans 9:6
New Living Translation
Well then, has God failed to fulfill his promise to Israel? No, for not all who are born into the nation of Israel are truly members of God’s people!

Romans 2:28
A man is not a Jew because he is one outwardly, nor is circumcision only outward and physical.

Philippians 3:3
For it is we who are the circumcision, we who worship by the Spirit of God, who glory in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh--

Yes ... insanely long posts ... that's why I stated ... those who believe in the literal Israel verses those who see the spiritual Israel ... and maintains those two different positions (such as you and me) .... conversation becomes futile ... and I believe that is where we are at. ;o)

Consider the spiritual such as Peter did

Acts 10

34Then Peter began to speak: “I now truly understand that God does not show favoritism, ( including literal Israel) 35but welcomes those from every nation who fear Him and do what is right. 36He has sent this message to the people of Israel (spiritual), proclaiming the gospel of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all.

EVERY NATION (not just literal Israel)

Again, ALL believers are ONE in Christ Jesus (past, present, future) it does not matter who you are or what nation you are from ... what church you go to .... if you are in Christ Jesus you are a member of His church (the redeemed).

Folks ... it's all about Jesus ... He always has been ... from the beginning and will be throughout eternity ... all of the saved ARE His Israel ... His people. The literal/physical doesn't matter ... it's about each one's relationship with God/Jesus and has always been that way.

God Bless all.

eleos1954 · Oct 9, 2019

thomas15 said:
I'm struggling to understand the actual purpose of this thread. The OP states plainly that he/she is not a dispensationalist but has a desire to understand this school of theology. Nothing wrong with that, actually a good thing.

A snip from the OP....

It is interesting that the OP is looking for Biblical support for a system of theology that he/she has already decided to reject. Should not the adventure seeker approach this with an open mind, regardless of the particular theological school that is being studied?

Since the OP states right up from that is "not for the faint of heart" allow me to test that statement.

Has the OP studied how covenant theology (and/or Catholic or Orthodox) has evolved and where it came from? Does the OP realize that the early body of believers in Christ were as a majority futurists and looking for a literal return of Christ and an earthly kingdom similar to what the dispensationalists teach now?

Who exactly is the OP calling "lazy, ignorant or both"? What is the standard that the OP is using to determine laziness and/or ignorance? Could the OP provide detail with respect to the claim that "especially protestants" have forgotten and/or not aware of the "roots" of certain theologies and possibly identify those "certain theologies"? And could someone offer some insight to bolster the inference that non-protestants have not forgotten the "roots" of "certain theologies."

Certainly we know there are different theologies (many) ... this post was in regard to dispensation theology (beliefs) in particular as the title states ... and ... discussion regarding that particular theology ... of which many many protestants adhere to ... and yes .... many protestants have not looked into where the theology of dispensation came from.

Protestant (the name itself) "roots" came out of the reformation ... and they did not teach dispensation theology.

Dispensationalism developed (much later) as a system from the teachings of John Nelson Darby, considered by some to be the father of dispensationalism (1800–82), who strongly influenced the Plymouth Brethren of the 1830s in Ireland and England.

If you and/or others want to discuss various (any and all) theologies then go open a thread on that in the General Theology area.

God Bless all.

thomas15 · Oct 9, 2019

eleos1954 said:
If you and/or others want to discuss various (any and all) theologies then go open a thread on that in the General Theology area.

Hi my Brother/Sister could you answer a few of my questions posted in #62 instead of advising me, a dispensationalist looking to engage in critical discussions of dispensationalism, to leave a dispensationalism forum to go elsewhere? Is that asking too much?

I'm all in favor of being corrected of my errors.

Guojing · Oct 10, 2019

eleos1954 said:
OT saints Knew a Messiah was Coming

With the limited knowledge of God given to them at the time, the Old Testament saints understood God would have to do something dramatic to save them. They placed their faith in the coming Savior who was described from the earliest of times. God told Adam and Eve one of their descendants would eventually defeat Satan Genesis 3:15 , and Abraham understood God would provide a sacrifice for sin, just as God provided the substitutionary sacrifice to replace Isaac Genesis 22:8, Romans 4:3 John 8:56 . Job had a similar expectation and hope for a Redeemer Job 19:25-26 , and Moses also expected and believed in the coming Messiah and the reward of Salvation Hebrews 11:26 , John 5:46 . Many other Old Testament prophets and wise men spoke about the coming Savior. Enoch, for example, even talked about the second coming of the Messiah Jude 14 ! Old Testament prophets clearly described where the Messiah would be born Micah 5:2 , how He would be betrayed Zechariah 11:12 , how He would die Isaiah 53:5 , and how He would be resurrected Psalm 16:10 , Isaiah 26:19 .

Old Testament saints understood their imperfect works would not unite them to a perfect God. They looked forward to the work of a flawless Messiah who would be “pierced through for our transgressions”, “crushed for our iniquities” and chastened “for our well-being” so that “by His scourging we are healed” Isaiah 53:5 . Those who understood and accepted the truth about grace and the coming Messiah were saved on the basis of their faith. The Savior has now appeared and His name is Jesus. We have today what the Old Testament saints only anticipated. Jesus is, as He always was, the Messiah and the only way to the Father.

You must be careful not to anticipate revelation.

I know its very difficult, like asking a fish what water is. You were born way after Paul and to you, you have always been taught that Jesus is the final sacrifice for the sins of mankind. So its difficult to imagine how the OT saints understood God without that knowledge and understanding.

The primary revelation of the Messiah that the prophets disclosed was His reign as King as David’s Greater Son in the kingdom of God on earth (Zechariah 14.9). In this rule, God would fulfill His covenant promises and elevate Israel as the premier nation on earth (Deuteronomy 28.1, 13).

More vague were prophecies regarding the Messiah’s suffering. Especially cryptic was how He would deal with the problem of sin. Only one passage dealt with this aspect of His work: Isaiah 53.

The Jews had no understanding of the significance of this passage. For them, the animal sacrifices offered by the priesthood of Israel were not shadows but reality. They had no idea of a greater truth beyond them.

That was why Peter even rebuked Jesus for telling them he would have to die, and even when it was reported to them the body was missing the tomb, they thought someone has stolen the body. None of them were camping at the tomb waiting for his resurrection.

To claim that the Jews, as you stated, "understood their imperfect works would not unite them to a perfect God. They looked forward to the work of a flawless Messiah who would be “pierced through for our transgressions”, “crushed for our iniquities” and chastened “for our well-being” so that “by His scourging we are healed” Isaiah 53:5" is really you "reading Paul into their thinking".

eleos1954 · Oct 10, 2019

Guojing said:
You must be careful not to anticipate revelation.

I know its very difficult, like asking a fish what water is. You were born way after Paul and to you, you have always been taught that Jesus is the final sacrifice for the sins of mankind. So its difficult to imagine how the OT saints understood God without that knowledge and understanding.

The primary revelation of the Messiah that the prophets disclosed was His reign as King as David’s Greater Son in the kingdom of God on earth (Zechariah 14.9). In this rule, God would fulfill His covenant promises and elevate Israel as the premier nation on earth (Deuteronomy 28.1, 13).

More vague were prophecies regarding the Messiah’s suffering. Especially cryptic was how He would deal with the problem of sin. Only one passage dealt with this aspect of His work: Isaiah 53.

The Jews had no understanding of the significance of this passage. For them, the animal sacrifices offered by the priesthood of Israel were not shadows but reality. They had no idea of a greater truth beyond them.

That was why Peter even rebuked Jesus for telling them he would have to die, and even when it was reported to them the body was missing the tomb, they thought someone has stolen the body. None of them were camping at the tomb waiting for his resurrection.

To claim that the Jews, as you stated, "understood their imperfect works would not unite them to a perfect God. They looked forward to the work of a flawless Messiah who would be “pierced through for our transgressions”, “crushed for our iniquities” and chastened “for our well-being” so that “by His scourging we are healed” Isaiah 53:5" is really you "reading Paul into their thinking".

To claim that the Jews, as you stated, "understood their imperfect works would not unite them to a perfect God.

I didn't state this ... what I said was ... Gods "Israel" (is not the literal nation). Gods Israel is ALL believers who are in Christ ... that is .... a spiritual Israel (not a literal one).

It is true the Jews got wrapped up in and trusted in their "works" through the sanctuary system ... thinking it would save them. Also true they misinterpreted or missed OT prophecies. Time after time the Lord gave Israel opportunity to change their ways and to not be disobedient to God ... until the point where He had enough of it and gave the responsibility of spreading the Gospel to the gentiles.

The early apostles were learning as they spent time with Jesus (and so do we through spending time in His written Word). True ... we have a more complete history to look at, giving us a more complete picture (thank God for that one) through their struggles and misunderstandings .... they learned ... over time.

None of them were camping at the tomb waiting for his resurrection.

True some of them were not convinced or were confused of the Messiah's death and resurrection ... they were also in fear of their lives ... thought they would be treated the same as Jesus was. However, no doubt Mary understood and believed.

So its difficult to imagine how the OT saints understood God without that knowledge and understanding.

It was there for them to understand ... they became corrupt in their thinking and actions and trusted in a "system" ... instead of God ... became blinded and deceived ... caught up in the "literal" work in the sanctuary system ... instead of the spiritual significance of it .... pointing to the Messiah. Yes ... they were expecting Messiah to be a conquering king and would rule with Him in their time.

Here is a link that lists about 40 of OT prophesies and their fulfillment in the NT.

Top 40 Most Helpful Messianic Prophecies • Jews for Jesus

God Bless.

Guojing · Oct 10, 2019

eleos1954 said:
I didn't state this ... what I said was ... Gods "Israel" (is not the literal nation). Gods Israel is ALL believers who are in Christ ... that is .... a spiritual Israel (not a literal one).

It is true the Jews got wrapped up in and trusted in their "works" through the sanctuary system ... thinking it would save them. Also true they misinterpreted or missed OT prophecies. Time after time the Lord gave Israel opportunity to change their ways and to not be disobedient to God ... until the point where He had enough of it and gave the responsibility of spreading the Gospel to the gentiles.

The early apostles were learning as they spent time with Jesus (and so do we through spending time in His written Word). True ... we have a more complete history to look at, giving us a more complete picture (thank God for that one) through their struggles and misunderstandings .... they learned ... over time.

True some of them were not convinced or were confused of the Messiah's death and resurrection ... they were also in fear of their lives ... thought they would be treated the same as Jesus was. However, no doubt Mary understood and believed.

It was there for them to understand ... they became corrupt in their thinking and actions and trusted in a "system" ... instead of God ... became blinded and deceived ... caught up in the "literal" work in the sanctuary system ... instead of the spiritual significance of it .... pointing to the Messiah. Yes ... they were expecting Messiah to be a conquering king and would rule with Him in their time.

Here is a link that lists about 40 of OT prophesies and their fulfillment in the NT.

Top 40 Most Helpful Messianic Prophecies • Jews for Jesus

God Bless.

So the idea that the OT saints were "looking forward to the cross" is actually un-scriptural, but more church doctrine. I suspect because many churches lean towards Covenant Theology by default.

Here is a complete list of how the 12, including Mary Magdelene understood about
Jesus's death burial and resurrection.

Ignorant of Jesus’ Death, burial, and resurrection

1. Matthew 16:21-22 – Jesus first began to tell them of his death and yet Peter tried to prevent it.
2. Mark 8:31-32 – Another account of Peter rebuking the Lord for speaking about his death.
3. Mark 9:31-32 – After hearing about the death and resurrection of Jesus the disciples “understood not and were afraid to ask him”
4. Luke 9:44-45 – “But they understood not this saying, and it was hid from them, that they perceived it not: and they feared to ask him of that saying.”
5. Luke 18:31-34 – “And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.”
6. John 2:21-22 – They did not understand the resurrection until after it happened.

Disbelief in the Resurrection
7. Mark 16:5-14 – The ladies were afraid when they found the tomb empty. The disciples did not believe after two witnesses testified of the resurrection.
8. Luke 24:1-4 – The ladies were perplexed about what had happened to Jesus.
9. Luke 24:8-12 – The stories of Jesus’ “disappearance” were idle tales. Peter wondered what happened.
10. John 20:2 – Mary Magdalene thought someone had stolen Jesus after he had resurrected.
11. John 20:7-9 – The disciples after seeing the empty tomb believed Mary that someone had stolen Jesus. They did not know about the resurrection yet.

Did not understand the cross for salvation
12. John 20:21-23 – Even after the resurrection, the disciples did not understand what it accomplished. Here they are given the authority to remit sins.
13. Acts 3:14-15 – The crucifixion was presented as a murder indictment to Israel at Pentecost. The resurrection as a warning that he would return to seek vengeance.
14. Acts 5:28 – Instead of the blood being payment for sins it was presented as the evidence of guilty murderers.
15. Acts 7:52 – Stephen accuses the rulers of betrayal and murder of the Just One.
16. Acts 10:39 – According to Paul’s gospel Christ died willingly in the place of sinners. According to Peter he died because he was slain by certain Jews. Could it be that Peter does not yet understand the mystery of the cross?

food4thought · Oct 12, 2019

Thanks again for replying, eleos1954. We seem to be talking past one another quite a bit... I am trying to address what you are saying. Perhaps we are not understanding one another?

eleos1954 said:
Understand birth pangs (labor pains) ... they start start out small and infrequent ... and then over time become more frequent and increase in intensity .... like I said .... the business as usual ... the tribulation escalates just like birth pangs. So for a while it (the tribulation) will be business as usual ... progressive, and eventually building to the point where it's almost unbearable.

As stated several times .... the terrible time ... toward the end of the great tribulation ... will be cut short.

Yes, this is true ... during the short time towards the end of the great tribulation, christians will be severely persecuted and martyred.

Yes .... many times (I would say most times) Gods people go through tribulation and God protects them from the worst of it. And He will protect His people from the "worst" of the great tribulation ... again ... do not ignore .... the time will be cut short.

You keep saying "it will be cut short" as if that erases what is written about the second half of the tribulation... are you saying that what is written will not happen? Because what is written about the last 3 and 1/2 years makes business as usual impossible. I still think my point stands.

The OT saints were saved the same way we are. Through grace by faith. They saw the promise of the coming Messiah ... are saved through the blood of Jesus.

John 8:56
New Living Translation
Your father Abraham rejoiced as he looked forward to my coming. He saw it and was glad.

Genesis 15:6
Abram believed the LORD, and it was credited to him as righteousness.

Romans 4:9
Is this blessing only on the circumcised, or also on the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham's faith was credited as righteousness.

Romans 4:22
That is why "it was credited to him as righteousness.

Galatians 3:6
So also, Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.

James 2:23
And the Scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called a friend of God.

First off, what is the gospel we believe for salvation? This question is crucial, is it not?

All the OT saints were saved by grace through faith, true, and everyone who enters heaven will be there because of the blood of Jesus Christ shed for our sins. Yet Abram believed God when He told him that he would have a son from his own body, and that his descendants would be like the stars of heaven for number (Genesis 15:4-5). This is not the gospel of our salvation, is it? They were all saved by grace through faith, but the content of that faith changed from then to now... they simply believed the truth that God revealed to them.

You think not? Go back and visit or re-visit the dark ages ... and the Spanish inquisition. Not only severe persecution of christians ... but persecution from a "religious system". So it will be in the end times.

I never said the church doesn't undergo tribulation/persecution. I did say that we will not go through the wrath of God poured out during the GREAT tribulation.

We do not know the day or time He comes .... period.

We do not know the day or hour of the rapture, but according to Daniel 12:11 we CAN know the day of His second coming.

Here's hoping we are understanding one another.

food4thought · Oct 12, 2019

eleos1954 said:
Are you a member of the Lords church? Yes of course. His church are those in Him. The sheep are scattered. The elect (the called out ones) transcends all "organized church systems" and nations (the believing Jews are grafted back into the tree). As you know and all of us know ... each of us has a personal relationship with Christ and that relationship is NOT contingent on any "affiliation" of any kind other than those in Christ.

Israel is NOT Israel. Jew is not a Jew ... we are ALL the same in Christ Jesus. His church IS all believers ... believers ARE His Israel ... His people.

The woman ... or the women in revelation. There is a pure woman ... representing all those in Christ (His bride (a woman), His church) The impure woman ... the apostate church systems.

"All Christians are one in Him, whether Jew or gentile, male or female, slave or free. Can you show me a few verses that say the OT saints are part of the body of Christ?"

OT saints Knew a Messiah was Coming

With the limited knowledge of God given to them at the time, the Old Testament saints understood God would have to do something dramatic to save them. They placed their faith in the coming Savior who was described from the earliest of times. God told Adam and Eve one of their descendants would eventually defeat Satan Genesis 3:15 , and Abraham understood God would provide a sacrifice for sin, just as God provided the substitutionary sacrifice to replace Isaac Genesis 22:8, Romans 4:3 John 8:56 . Job had a similar expectation and hope for a Redeemer Job 19:25-26 , and Moses also expected and believed in the coming Messiah and the reward of Salvation Hebrews 11:26 , John 5:46 . Many other Old Testament prophets and wise men spoke about the coming Savior. Enoch, for example, even talked about the second coming of the Messiah Jude 14 ! Old Testament prophets clearly described where the Messiah would be born Micah 5:2 , how He would be betrayed Zechariah 11:12 , how He would die Isaiah 53:5 , and how He would be resurrected Psalm 16:10 , Isaiah 26:19 .

Old Testament saints understood their imperfect works would not unite them to a perfect God. They looked forward to the work of a flawless Messiah who would be “pierced through for our transgressions”, “crushed for our iniquities” and chastened “for our well-being” so that “by His scourging we are healed” Isaiah 53:5 . Those who understood and accepted the truth about grace and the coming Messiah were saved on the basis of their faith. The Savior has now appeared and His name is Jesus. We have today what the Old Testament saints only anticipated. Jesus is, as He always was, the Messiah and the only way to the Father.

That is all very interesting, but... I don't want to be rude... but this does not really address the passage that I quoted.

eleos1954 · Oct 12, 2019

food4thought said:
Thanks again for replying, eleos1954. We seem to be talking past one another quite a bit... I am trying to address what you are saying. Perhaps we are not understanding one another?

You keep saying "it will be cut short" as if that erases what is written about the second half of the tribulation... are you saying that what is written will not happen? Because what is written about the last 3 and 1/2 years makes business as usual impossible. I still think my point stands.

First off, what is the gospel we believe for salvation? This question is crucial, is it not?

All the OT saints were saved by grace through faith, true, and everyone who enters heaven will be there because of the blood of Jesus Christ shed for our sins. Yet Abram believed God when He told him that he would have a son from his own body, and that his descendants would be like the stars of heaven for number (Genesis 15:4-5). This is not the gospel of our salvation, is it? They were all saved by grace through faith, but the content of that faith changed from then to now... they simply believed the truth that God revealed to them.

I never said the church doesn't undergo tribulation/persecution. I did say that we will not go through the wrath of God poured out during the GREAT tribulation.

We do not know the day or hour of the rapture, but according to Daniel 12:11 we CAN know the day of His second coming.

Here's hoping we are understanding one another.

The difference between us is that you are a futurist follow Futurism theology.

Futurism (Christianity) - Wikipedia

on the other hand ... I follow the Historicism theology.
Historicism was the belief held by the majority of the Protestant Reformers,

://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicism_(Christianity)

food4thought · Oct 12, 2019

eleos1954 said:
I already did .... several times. We (believers) walk in the spirit ... not in the literal. Gods Israel is spiritual .. not physical.

Do you take any of the Scripture literally? If so, how do you determine when to take something literally and when to spiritualize it?

eleos1954 said:
Whether they are Jewish or Gentile, God regards only those who have renewed hearts as true Israelites. It's in the Bible. "For he is not a Jew which is one outwardly, nor is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew which is one inwardly, and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, and not in the letter' whose praise is not from men but from God." Romans 2:28,29 . "For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh."
Philippians 3:3

This is actually quite good. I'll have to do a little study before I respond to it.

food4thought · Oct 12, 2019

eleos1954 said:
No, I brought this up as I thought your were using their (translation) in regard to them being "taken away" as a deliverance from tribulations ... and that was not why they were taken to heaven. They were taken to heaven because they walked with God ... ie found to be righteous (if I misunderstood, I apologize)

You did not misunderstand. I pointed out that they (with the exception of Elijah) were taken before (or absent from) serious tribulation. They are types of the rapture. I mentioned that the truly saved also "walks with God" to point out that it would not be out of character for God to remove His people before the tribulation.

food4thought · Oct 12, 2019

eleos1954 said:
It is true a lot of the "churches" dismisses the keeping of the Lords Sabbath in error.

All are called to walk in the steps of Jesus and He kept the Sabbath and so did all the apostles. Jesus IS God and who knows more about God than God? He is Lord (master) of the Sabbath. It is important to Him ... therefore important to us. His steps ... includes keeping the Sabbath.

This thread is not the place to get into a discussion about the Sabbath.

You (and others) believe and hold on to a literal Israel ... and Gods Israel is spiritual. This is a major difference in why we believe differently.

Yes it is. Are you interested in seeing the Scriptural basis for the dispensational belief that Israel is distinct from the church?

eleos1954 · Oct 12, 2019

food4thought said:
This thread is not the place to get into a discussion about the Sabbath.

Yes it is. Are you interested in seeing the Scriptural basis for the dispensational belief that Israel is distinct from the church?

I am informed with futurism theology and do not find a lot of it biblically supported. I hold to historicism theology as most of the reformists did ...

I provided links of the two theologies in a different post.

food4thought · Oct 12, 2019

eleos1954 said:
I am informed with futurism theology and do not find a lot of it biblically supported. I hold to historicism theology as most of the reformists did ...

I provided links of the two theologies in a different post.

I see. Why are you here?

eleos1954 · Oct 12, 2019

food4thought said:
I see. Why are you here?

I created the post to discuss dispensation theory ... which is futurism teaching and was upfront in my original post that I was not a proponent of dispensation theory.

food4thought · Oct 12, 2019

eleos1954 said:
I created the post to discuss dispensation theory... which is futurism teaching and was upfront in my original post that I was not a proponent of dispensation theory.

Indeed you did. But you also said this:

eleos1954 said:
That is ... people believe differently for reasons ... what are those reasons and what biblical support and historical support is there for those reasons.

Yet you seem to have no real desire to learn about dispensationalism. What you seem intent on doing is promoting the doctrine of the Seventh Day Adventist church. You have neglected to respond to the content of my posts several times, and seem unwilling to admit when you are not able to refute what I have written.

If we are not going to have an honest dialogue, where each of us is willing to admit when the other is correct in their understanding, then I see no reason to continue this discussion.

It is my hope that we can start over, with the caveat that we are both here to learn what the other sees in different passages of Scripture, and we are both open to the possibility that we are mistaken in our beliefs. If not, then we should both find something better to do with our time.

God bless you as you seek to follow our Lord, eleos1954;
Michael

eleos1954 · Oct 12, 2019

food4thought said:
Indeed you did. But you also said this:

Yet you seem to have no real desire to learn about dispensationalism. What you seem intent on doing is promoting the doctrine of the Seventh Day Adventist church. You have neglected to respond to the content of my posts several times, and seem unwilling to admit when you are not able to refute what I have written.

If we are not going to have an honest dialogue, where each of us is willing to admit when the other is correct in their understanding, then I see no reason to continue this discussion.

It is my hope that we can start over, with the caveat that we are both here to learn what the other sees in different passages of Scripture, and we are both open to the possibility that we are mistaken in our beliefs. If not, then we should both find something better to do with our time.

God bless you as you seek to follow our Lord, eleos1954;
Michael

We have been having a conversation ... you have put forth what you believe and vice versa. I thought we WERE having honest dialog ... it's just that we believe differently.

The posts have been rather long all ready. That's why I asked in my original post to address the "sub-topic" of discussion by number and title (of which no one in this thread has done) in which I provided some scriptural references.

It is my hope that we can start over, with the caveat that we are both here to learn what the other sees in different passages of Scripture, and we are both open to the possibility that we are mistaken in our beliefs

and ... I thought that's what we were doing.

God bless you as you seek to follow our Lord, Michael

food4thought · Oct 12, 2019

Let me be the first to reach out in the spirit of my previous post:

The Exodus of Israel from Egypt, did it literally happen?

Dispensationalism - Open Discussion

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