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... aren't you in the book of life?
I have received the Lord Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. I am born again. Do you sincerely doubt my salvation because I believe in a pre-trib rapture and a distinction between the church and Israel?
are you a Jew?
No.
He returns [at the pre-trib rapture] and then the resurrection (of the saved dead) and those alive at the time are translated and taken to heaven.
Fixed that for you
It does not say He will set up His millennial kingdom in 1st Thessalonians 4 ... it says .... we (all the saved) will be with the Lord.
Because the millennial kingdom will not be set up until after the tribulation and the 2nd coming, and the passage is speaking specifically of the rapture.
It does not say only those who died in the tribulation
But the passage in Revelation does... perhaps we are looking at two separate passages speaking of two separate events.
... it says the dead will rise first
Yes, at the rapture.
... nor does it say anything about 7 years earlier.
No, but the differences between these two events plainly imply two different events separated by a period of time. This is not unusual in Scripture. Look at these two passages:
Luke 4:17-21 NASB And the book of the prophet Isaiah was handed to Him. And He opened the book and found the place where it was written, (18) "THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS UPON ME, BECAUSE HE ANOINTED ME TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THE POOR. HE HAS SENT ME TO PROCLAIM RELEASE TO THE CAPTIVES, AND RECOVERY OF SIGHT TO THE BLIND, TO SET FREE THOSE WHO ARE OPPRESSED, (19) TO PROCLAIM THE FAVORABLE YEAR OF THE LORD." (20) And He closed the book, gave it back to the attendant and sat down; and the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on Him. (21) And He began to say to them, "Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing."
and
Isaiah 61:1-4 NASB The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me, Because the LORD has anointed me To bring good news to the afflicted; He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to captives And freedom to prisoners; (2) To proclaim the favorable year of the LORD And the day of vengeance of our God; To comfort all who mourn, (3) To grant those who mourn in Zion, Giving them a garland instead of ashes, The oil of gladness instead of mourning, The mantle of praise instead of a spirit of fainting. So they will be called oaks of righteousness, The planting of the LORD, that He may be glorified. (4) Then they will rebuild the ancient ruins, They will raise up the former devastations; And they will repair the ruined cities, The desolations of many generations.
Now Jesus quotes the part of the passage that deals with His Incarnation, yet the passage in Isaiah 62 plainly includes "...the day of vengeance of our God". This is the time surrounding His 2nd coming, and continuing into the millennial kingdom. These are two separate periods of time, and they are included in the same OT passage. Also, look at this passage in Isaiah:
Isaiah 65:17-20 NASB "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former things will not be remembered or come to mind. (18) "But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create; For behold, I create Jerusalem for rejoicing And her people for gladness. (19) "I will also rejoice in Jerusalem and be glad in My people; And there will no longer be heard in her The voice of weeping and the sound of crying. (20) "No longer will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, Or an old man who does not live out his days; For the youth will die at the age of one hundred And the one who does not reach the age of one hundred Will be thought accursed.
This passage describes both the millennial kingdom (verse 20) and the eternal state (verse 17), but they are mentioned together as though it was one thing. The book of Revelation clears this up for us, but just note that Matthew 24 is not alone in combining two events into one passage without clearly separating the two.
All the saved dead for all times are resurrected
True, just not at the same time. What about the faithful dead at the end of the millennial kingdom? When are they resurrected? It has to be after the kingdom age and before the eternal state. There are plainly more than two resurrections.
... they have been asleep in the grave
So you believe in soul sleep?
... the dead in Christ rise first ... Just as 1 Thessalonians 4 in it's entirety states. (shall not precede - none go before those who have previously died - asleep in the grave)
Yes, the rapture will include those who are dead in Christ and the OT saints.
1 Thessalonians 4
The Return of the Lord
13Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.
15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain (the saved still on earth) will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.
18Therefore encourage one another with these words.
I believe every word.
His people ARE on earth and do go through the great tribulation ... until He returns
Not according to 1Thessalonians 5:9 and Revelation 3:10.
EVERYBODY saved and unsaved to go through the great tribulation
No, not the church/body of Christ.
... there is no special (or secret) rapture.
The rapture is not "secret". It is clearly implied in the Scriptures, and it will be a worldwide event that everyone will see happen.
No doubt We Disagree on the "secret rapture theory".
Obviously. Again, it is not a "secret" rapture.
His return is going to be a loud and powerful event ... with a voice of an archangel, trumpet of God (not a secret one) ... and the 1st resurrection happens.
Not sure where you got the idea that the rapture is somehow "secret".
1 Thessalonians 4
16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise.
Yes, this is speaking of the rapture.
From then on we are with the Lord.
Yep.
John 14
1“Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe in Me as well. 2In My Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I am going away to prepare a place for you? 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and welcome you into My presence, so that you also may be where I am. 4You know the way to the place where I am going.”
Where is Jesus? He's in heaven in His Father's house (the place where he was going (above). He will welcome us there in His presence (in heaven)
Praise God!!! Yes, and then we will accompany Him back to earth at His 2nd coming to set up the millennial kingdom (Jude 1:14-15; Revelation 19:14; Revelation 20:4-10).
No ... at the 1st resurrection, when He returns in all His glory and takes ALL the saved to heaven.
Not that I like repeating myself over and over, but the 1st resurrection in Revelation 20 is only for the martyrs from the tribulation. Here it is, again:
Revelation 20:4-6 NASB Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. (5) The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. (6) Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
Romans 9
It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.
Dealt with this already.
Galatians 3
26You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise.
Yes, those in the body of Christ are one. This is not true of those who are not part of the NT church... Israel is distinct from the church.
Romans 10
12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile--the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him,
and so it is ... all the saved are ONE in Christ Jesus and there is no distinction.
Again, this is not true of those who are not part of the NT church.
So .. if one finds themselves stuck in the "nation of Israel box" or the "Jew box" ... then agreement on many things isn't possible.
Except that distinction is what the Bible clearly teaches. True, until I can help you see this, agreement on many things will be impossible.
Mainly the dividing issues are:
The state of the dead - asleep in the grave until His return
Except Paul said this (and I am sure you have heard this verse):
2 Corinthians 5:6-8 NASB Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord— (7) for we walk by faith, not by sight— (8) we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.
Looking forward to reading your explanation of that verse.
Who is God's "Israel" - all who are in Christ.
Again, show me a few verses that say this explicitly.
The elect - are all who are in Christ
All those in the body of Christ are the elect, but not all the elect are part of the body of Christ. OT saints, tribulation saints, and those who come to faith during the millennium are distinct groups.
Therefore, if you (or others) believe there is special treatment for the nation Israel and the Jews .... really it is pretty futile for us to continue conversation on the matter.
I'm not sure what you mean by special treatment. God is not through with literal Israel... He made specific promises to them that were never fulfilled. If God can break His promises to Israel, what are we to make of His promises to us?
Are you not even curious about why we believe in this distinction? Or have you pre-judged our position without looking at the basis for our belief?
Acts 10
34Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism 35but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right
We are ALL the same (One) in Christ Jesus.
This passage is speaking of the NT church; but this was not true in the OT, was it?
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