Is Prayer Necessary For Salvation?

packermann · Oct 9, 2019

I would say – yes! I am reading a book called Prayer – the Key For Salvation” by Fr. George Mueller. If anything is needed from us to be saved it is prayer. I am not talking about going through the externals. It is praying a sincere, heartfelt prayer. We cannot honor God with our lips but our hearts be far from Him. But the one who prays a lot depends on Him a lot. The one who prays a little depends on God a little. The one who never prays does not depend on Him at all. Dependence on God is what the Bible means by faith. John 3:16 say “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, so that he who believes in Him shall not perish but may have everlasting life”. That word “believes” is in the present, continuous tense which means “he who believes and keeps on believing” may have eternal life. More explicit is “He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach— 23if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast” (Colossians 1:22, 23). We will only be presented to Him holy if, indeed, we continue in the faith. It is not a one-time act of prayer. It is praying at all times (Ephesians 6:18). It praying without ceasing (1 Thessalonians 5:17). It is bombarding heaven with our prayers. This something that a Catholic, Protestant, or Orthodox can and should do.

Why do not find that we lack faith? Please we do not pray for faith – “Lord, I believe help thou my unbelief”. When can repentance fail us? It is when it is not accompanied with prayer. Judas repented (Matthew 27:3 – modern translations have remorse but KJV has “repented himself”, and that is closer to the original Greek), but he only repented unto himself. He did not repent unto God. Why do we not have love, especially to our enemies? Because we have not prayed for it. Why do we not victory over that sin is most prevalent in our lives? Because we do not pray for it, or if we do pray for it we pray for it infrequently. We have not because we ask not (James 4:2).

And when we ask we ask for our own selfish desires (James 4:3). Gimmie, gimmie. My prayers degenerate into God giving me a job promotion, a nicer house, etc. We do not know what to ask for. That is why I am starting to understand how valuable form prayers. It takes a lot of humility to pray someone else’s prayer other than your own – to say to yourself that the prayers of a righteous person is more adequate than your own. And the prayers of a humble person pierce the clouds (Ecclesiasticus (Sirach) 35:21. Unfortunately, it is only in the Catholic Bible)). I am not saying that I never take to God just in my own words. I do. But I spend more time with the prayers of the Church. You do not have to be Catholic to do this. I was able to concentrate on Who I was praying to instead of what I was praying next.

I know that some will object to this because of what Jesus said about praying empty repetitions (Matthew 6:7). But they ignore that Jesus then taught us the Lord’s Prayer, which is prayed repeatedly. Also, Jesus said that we should not pray EMPTY repetitions. He did not condemn any repetitions, just empty ones. And He condemned how the pagans prayed, not the Jews. The Jews, especially the religious ones, would recite the Psalms over and over again. And some of the Psalms would repeat a phrase within them (in Psalm 136, the phrase “His steadfast love endures forever” repeats at the end of every verse.

If continuous faith is needed for salvation and prayer reflects and reinforces our faith then prayer is need for our salvation. But the one who prays a lot has great certainty of salvation. The one who prays a little has little certainty of salvation. The one who never prays has no certainty of salvation.

Lost4words · Oct 9, 2019

Jesus prayed. We are to pick up our cross and follow Jesus. That means in prayer and works too.

SavedByGrace3 · Oct 9, 2019

Faith is made up of words. You believe words. You believe words in your heart, and out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. It is not so much that you "have" to pray. It is just the natural result of a heart believing a truth.
The Word says:
"Jesus is Lord and merciful to all who call on His name..."
You heart receives this, believes this, and therefore:
"JESUS!!!"

bling · Oct 9, 2019

Then how is a new born baby saved?

fwGod · Oct 9, 2019

bling said:
Then how is a new born baby saved?

The children of the saved parents are covered by the faith of the parents until such time as the child reaches the age to believe for themselves.

packermann · Oct 9, 2019

SavedByGrace3 said:
Faith is made up of words. You believe words. You believe words in your heart, and out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. It is not so much that you "have" to pray. It is just the natural result of a heart believing a truth.
The Word says:
"Jesus is Lord and merciful to all who call on His name..."
You heart receives this, believes this, and therefore:
"JESUS!!!"

Prayer is the result of faith and faith is also the result of prayer. Suppose a person lacks faith. I would say to pray, "Lord, I believe. Help thou my unbelief!"(Mark 9:24).

We have to pray as much as we have to believe. Faith without prayer could easily be just faith in yourself rather than faith in God. Faith would then be reduced to positive thinking. Prayer keeps our focus on the One whom we are trusting.

I have been with the Lord for 45 years. My experience is that prayer does not automatically flow from faith. What automatically flows from me is sin. My tendency is not to pray. I must step out in faith and just do it! I must pray, especially when I do not feel like it. No action automatically flows from faith. That is the heresy of Quietism - Let go and let God. The Bible teaches that we need to work out our salvation with fear and trembling, for God is at work in us both to will and to do according to His pleasure (Philippians 2:12). When we look to God, it is all His doing. When we look to us, it is all us working it out.

If prayer flowed so easily from faith then the Bible would never have to tell us to pray, anymore than the Bible commanding us to breathe. The Bible would be the shortest book ever. All it would command us to do is believe and everything will flow naturally from that.

SavedByGrace3 · Oct 9, 2019

I have to go with the Word. I respect your opinion and experience. Old believer myself. 48 years. That means nothing if it contradicts the clear statements of the Word.

Romans 10:
Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Words of Christ.

Jesus said:
From out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.
That is just what it says.

Thanks for your comments.

packermann said:
Prayer is the result of faith and faith is also the result of prayer. Suppose a person lacks faith. I would say to pray, "Lord, I believe. Help thou my unbelief!"(Mark 9:24).

We have to pray as much as we have to believe. Faith without prayer could easily be just faith in yourself rather than faith in God. Faith would then be reduced to positive thinking. Prayer keeps our focus on the One whom we are trusting.

I have been with the Lord for 45 years. My experience is that prayer does not automatically flow from faith. What automatically flows from me is sin. My tendency is not to pray. I must step out in faith and just do it! I must pray, especially when I do not feel like it. No action automatically flows from faith. That is the heresy of Quietism - Let go and let God. The Bible teaches that we need to work out our salvation with fear and trembling, for God is at work in us both to will and to do according to His pleasure (Philippians 2:12). When we look to God, it is all His doing. When we look to us, it is all us working it out.

If prayer flowed so easily from faith then the Bible would never have to tell us to pray, anymore than the Bible commanding us to breathe. The Bible would be the shortest book ever. All it would command us to do is believe and everything will flow naturally from that.

com7fy8 · Oct 9, 2019

packermann said:
the Lord’s Prayer

Maybe we could say the "Our Father" is our prayer, and John chapter seventeen has the Lord's prayer.

And indeed what Jesus has prayed for us is guaranteed in us who have trusted in Jesus.

bling · Oct 9, 2019

fwGod said:
The children of the saved parents are covered by the faith of the parents until such time as the child reaches the age to believe for themselves.

Where do you find that idea in scripture?
So a baby born to non Christian parents is hell bound if it dies?

fwGod · Oct 9, 2019

bling said:
Where do you find that idea in scripture?

I base it on the scripture that says "Believe in the Lord Jesus and you and your household shall be saved."

I also base it on my own experience. Before I understood about salvation (5yrs old) my parents had me go through the water baptism process. It didn't stick and I was prodigal until I got older and understood the salvation message. Then I made my confession unto salvation. It stuck because I've lived a saved life ever since.

you said:
So a baby born to non Christian parents is hell bound if it dies?

No. God is merciful to consider babies to be innocent. Even the children. Jesus said "Allow the children to come to me for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."

Blade · Oct 9, 2019

For salvation...one has to talk to GOD...say our sorry.. repent. With out it.. then its based on something else as in "if you were blind you would have no sin. You say you see your sins remain". Millions have never heard.. so they will be looked at in a different way.

Cant get it with out asking

bling · Oct 10, 2019

fwGod said:
I base it on the scripture that says "Believe in the Lord Jesus and you and your household shall be saved."

I also base it on my own experience. Before I understood about salvation (5yrs old) my parents had me go through the water baptism process. It didn't stick and I was prodigal until I got older and understood the salvation message. Then I made my confession unto salvation. It stuck because I've lived a saved life ever since.
No. God is merciful to consider babies to be innocent. Even the children. Jesus said "Allow the children to come to me for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."

You have to keep the interpretation of a verse in context look at these related verses:

36 a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’

John 4:53 So he and his whole household believed.

Acts 10: 27 While talking with him, Peter went inside and found a large gathering of people.

Acts 10: Now we are all here in the presence of God to listen to everything the Lord has commanded you to tell us.

Acts 11: 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message.

Acts 11: 14 He will bring you a message through which you and all your household will be saved.’

Acts 16: 31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.” 32 Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all the others in his house.

Acts 16:34… he was filled with joy because he had come to believe in God—he and his whole household.

You seem to be interpreting the verse to say just because the Jailer believes his whole household is saved, but the context is saying he will be saved by believing and his whole household can be saved by believing, that certainly is the way it is in other places and if the Jailer’s believing could save his household why did Paul speak to the whole household and not just speak to the jailer? Do you not see the whole household of the Jailer became believers through Paul’s teaching and were saved?

We agree babies are innocent (in a safe state, which means they do not need to be saved since they have not sinned?)

SavedByGrace3 · Oct 10, 2019

This is the gospel... add nothing. Take nothing away.

1 Corinthians 15 New International Version (NIV)
1 Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand.
2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,

Note what they did, the actions they took be saved and stay saved:
They heard the preaching.
They received the word.
They stand on the word.
The believed the word.

Now of course the belief led to a profession and naturally a prayer.

I would hesitate to add any requirements to this.
Galatians speaks very harshly about those that will add to this.

renniks · Oct 10, 2019

Genuine prayer is vital for a deeper relationship with God. Continued faith is vital for salvation. So I agree with a lot of what you said but I also disagree.

fwGod · Oct 11, 2019

bling said:
You have to keep the interpretation of a verse in context look at these related verses:

36 a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’

This is a contrast verse, therefore I didn't need to post it.

This shows that the context is speaking of a different thing.
35 "For I have come to turn ‘A man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.
36 A man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’
37Anyone who loves his father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me"

The question that I replied to was not about family belief disagreements.

I had quoted from
Acts 16:31 "And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house."

The Contemporary English Version says it this way
They replied, "Have faith in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved! This is also true for everyone who lives in your home."

The following are not necessary for interpretation of Acts 16:31. They are useful for study though.

bling said:
John 4:53 So he and his whole household believed.

Acts 10: 27 While talking with him, Peter went inside and found a large gathering of people.

Acts 10: Now we are all here in the presence of God to listen to everything the Lord has commanded you to tell us.

Acts 11: 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message.

Acts 11: 14 He will bring you a message through which you and all your household will be saved.’

Acts 16: 31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.” 32 Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all the others in his house.

Acts 16:34… he was filled with joy because he had come to believe in God—he and his whole household.

bling said:
You seem to be interpreting the verse

I simply offered (Acts16:31) for support of my reply to the question posted. A straightforward verse doesn't need to be interpreted.

bling said:
to say just because the Jailer believes his whole household is saved,

I didn't say that. You are putting words in my mouth.

The words there don't indicate that only the jailer need believe in order that his household be saved. The King James Version implies it, and The Contemporary English Version states that the jailer and his family are to believe.

bling said:
but the context is saying he will be saved by believing and his whole household can be saved by believing,

Exactly.

Paul said it was to the jailer and his whole house. It also applies to every person in the jail that also had families.

bling said:
that certainly is the way it is in other places and if the Jailer’s believing could save his household why did Paul speak to the whole household and not just speak to the jailer?

You have constructed a straw man, in order to argue against it.

However there's nothing that says that one believer in a household can't pray that all come to believe also. That is the purpose of my response to the original question.

Just as anyone prays to believe that any stranger they meet would be saved. Because God hears and answers prayer.

Here are two examples
Acts 2:38-39 "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
"For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call."

When Paul was on the ship and it ran into a storm on the sea it's evident that Paul prayed that all be saved from the danger.
Acts 27:22 "I exhort you to be of good cheer: for there shall be no loss of any man's life among you.."
24 "..for the angel said, 'God hath given thee all them that sail with thee'."

Continuing with Paul at the jail... It's possible that the jailer's home was next door to the jail. Or perhaps due to the earthquake breaking open the jail.. the families had come from the houses to the jail to see if their fathers/husbands were alright. So, they'd be right there hearing all that Paul said.

bling said:
Do you not see the whole household of the Jailer became believers through Paul’s teaching and were saved?

Of course I see.. it's why I gave the scripture in the first place.

The actual event is not recorded, but there's no reason to think that it didn't happen.

bling said:
We agree babies are innocent (in a safe state, which means they do not need to be saved since they have not sinned?)

Babies don't understand any language until about age one when they begin to repeat a word or words that they hear. Even then they might not fully understand what they say.

So, until children do understand, they are under a grace covering. Then when grown they are still under a grace covering at the moment of salvation Eph.2:8
"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works lest anyone should boast."

And all through one's christian life under grace and not law.
Rom.6:14 "For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace."

bling · Oct 11, 2019

fwGod said:
This is a contrast verse, therefore I didn't need to post it.

This shows that the context is speaking of a different thing.
35 "For I have come to turn ‘A man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.
36 A man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’
37Anyone who loves his father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me"

The question that I replied to was not about family belief disagreements.

I had quoted from
Acts 16:31 "And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house."

The Contemporary English Version says it this way
They replied, "Have faith in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved! This is also true for everyone who lives in your home."

The following are not necessary for interpretation of Acts 16:31. They are useful for study though.

I simply offered (Acts16:31) for support of my reply to the question posted. A straightforward verse doesn't need to be interpreted.
I didn't say that. You are putting words in my mouth.

The words there don't indicate that only the jailer need believe in order that his household be saved. The King James Version implies it, and The Contemporary English Version states that the jailer and his family are to believe.
Exactly.

Paul said it was to the jailer and his whole house. It also applies to every person in the jail that also had families.
You have constructed a straw man, in order to argue against it.

However there's nothing that says that one believer in a household can't pray that all come to believe also. That is the purpose of my response to the original question.

Just as anyone prays to believe that any stranger they meet would be saved. Because God hears and answers prayer.

Here are two examples
Acts 2:38-39 "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
"For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call."

When Paul was on the ship and it ran into a storm on the sea it's evident that Paul prayed that all be saved from the danger.
Acts 27:22 "I exhort you to be of good cheer: for there shall be no loss of any man's life among you.."
24 "..for the angel said, 'God hath given thee all them that sail with thee'."

Continuing with Paul at the jail... It's possible that the jailer's home was next door to the jail. Or perhaps due to the earthquake breaking open the jail.. the families had come from the houses to the jail to see if their fathers/husbands were alright. So, they'd be right there hearing all that Paul said.
Of course I see.. it's why I gave the scripture in the first place.

The actual event is not recorded, but there's no reason to think that it didn't happen.

Babies don't understand any language until about age one when they begin to repeat a word or words that they hear. Even then they might not fully understand what they say.

So, until children do understand, they are under a grace covering. Then when grown they are still under a grace covering at the moment of salvation Eph.2:8
"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works lest anyone should boast."

And all through one's christian life under grace and not law.
Rom.6:14 "For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace."

I did make assumptions, because you seemed to be using this verse in support of the idea: "Babies of Christians are automatically saved", but the verse does not support that conclusion since they must also believe.

Albion · Oct 11, 2019

packermann said:
If continuous faith is needed for salvation and prayer reflects and reinforces our faith then prayer is need for our salvation. But the one who prays a lot has great certainty of salvation. The one who prays a little has little certainty of salvation. The one who never prays has no certainty of salvation.

It is hard to imagine someone who has Faith but does not pray. That would be almost contradictory. Still it is important to understand that, as prayer is not just gimme gimme (as you noted in your post), it also is not only the formal prayers we all were taught or, for that matter, prayers that are about ANY particular petition. Every mental act of turning towards God is prayer.

fwGod · Oct 11, 2019

bling said:
I did make assumptions, because you seemed to be using this verse in support of the idea: "Babies of Christians are automatically saved", but the verse does not support that conclusion since they must also believe.

You've changed your mind since the last time you posted?

bling said:
We agree babies are innocent (in a safe state, which means they do not need to be saved since they have not sinned?)

Even in the old testament it's been possible. The child of King David and Bathsheba that died.. David said that he would see the baby again (after death).
In order for that to happen, the baby would have to be in the same place that David would be..
Not hell.

The babies and children are under the grace covering of the parents until such time as they can understand the gospel.

The idea that God would send innocent babies and children to hell on the basis that they are too young to believe.. is the construction of an evil God.

packermann · Oct 12, 2019

SavedByGrace3 said:
I have to go with the Word. I respect your opinion and experience. Old believer myself. 48 years. That means nothing if it contradicts the clear statements of the Word.

Romans 10:
Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Words of Christ.

Jesus said:
From out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.
That is just what it says.

Thanks for your comments.

That first one is a misquote! I would not normally point that out, but your misquote of the verse in Roman 10:17 severely favors your argument. The verse actually says "So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God". The "word of God", not the "words of Christ", refer to the Old Testament. The New Testament was still being written, and was not compiled into the Bible until 405 AD.

If your argument is that this verse means that ONLY the word of God gives us faith to the exclusion of prayer, then you have to also say that this is to the exclusion of New Testament as well, since Paul could not have included the New Testament as part of the Word of God as the New Testament was not yet completed and compiled at the time of this writing! And if the ONLY thing that produces faith is the Old Testament then why is it that most Jews, who read the Old Testament (the Jewish Bible to them) do not automatically come to believe that Jesus is their Messiah?

Obviously there is more to it than just the hearing Word of God. There is the Holy Spirit, there is free will, there is someone explaining how Jesus fulfilled the Old Testament to that person, there is humility and openness to the Holy Spirit, and there is prayer, to give just a few examples.

Jesus pointed this out Himself :

13 Then Jesus said to them, “Don’t you understand this parable? How then will you understand any parable? 14 The farmer sows the word. 15 Some people are like seed along the path, where the word is sown. As soon as they hear it, Satan comes and takes away the word that was sown in them. 16 Others, like seed sown on rocky places, hear the word and at once receive it with joy. 17 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. 18 Still others, like seed sown among thorns, hear the word; 19 but the worries of this life, the deceitfulness of wealth and the desires for other things come in and choke the word, making it unfruitful. 20 Others, like seed sown on good soil, hear the word, accept it, and produce a crop—some thirty, some sixty, some a hundred times what was sown.”
Mark 4:13 - 20

There are other factors involved besides the Word of God. There is the shallowness of the hearers. The hearers may no root, and so they fall way when trouble and persecution comes. Or the hearers are more concerned with the cares of this life.

There is nothing wrong with the seed, the Word of God. The problem is with the soil. Some soil is bad. Some is good. So what can we do to make the soil good? Prayer! This is so obvious that I cannot believe we are having this discussion.

There is nothing automatic with the Word of God to produce faith or prayer. Paul even warned against the letter of the Law (the Jews would call the first five books of Moses the Law, and sometimes call it the Word of God). It is the Spirit of the Law that gives life(2 Corinthians 3:4 - 6). We can read the Bible 24 hours a day, but without the Holy Spirit, it would not produce life in us. Come, Holy Spirit, fill the hearts of Thy faithful and kindle within them the fire of Thy love!

ViaCrucis · Oct 12, 2019

Is prayer necessary for salvation in that prayer is something we do which is earning us points and if we don't accrue the necessary points, or get our t's crossed and i's dotted then no salvation for us? No.

Prayer doesn't merit anything from God. I don't pray because if I don't then God is going to shoo me away, or that if I do then God accepts me because I've attained some sort of pious standing.

Prayer is not "salvific"; but prayer is intrinsic to the life of salvation which we have in Christ. It has nothing to do with either quality or quantity; it's not about how frequently we pray or infrequently we pray, or how well we pray. But prayer is something that comes, flows out from, a life being worked upon by God's grace.

In the same way that breathing are intrinsic to our biological existence. We don't earn our life by breathing; but part of being alive is breathing. It is a sustenance, and without it we suffocate ourselves.

A life without prayer is like a man suffocating, strangling his spiritual life. But, additionally, prayer is also something that is cultivated. It's why Jesus taught us how to pray.

If a sister or brother say that they do not pray, rather than judge them, I would want to understand the underlying reason. Do they not know how to pray? Then as Christ's people, let's feed them, invite them deeper into God's word, and teach about God's grace, and His gifts. Let's speak Gospel to them. Is their faith shaky? Have they experienced trauma that has shaken them? Then let's be God's people to them, loving them, sharing ourselves with them, not chastising but comforting and--again--speaking Gospel to them. Let's teach, let's reason together, let's preach the good news, let us love one another with godly and brotherly affection. And by the grace of God, through God's gracious working in His Body through Word and Sacrament, let us encourage one another. That we might, together, as Christ's own people, share together in a loving and prayerful life.

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