Are there dispensationalists who believe Paul's gospel is the same as the one preached in Matt-John?

thomas15 · Oct 10, 2019

One of the things I have learned in my study of the often mocked "free grace" theology is that many in reformed covenant theology teach that works are essential for salvation. So much for Sola Gratia.

Anyway....

Guojing said:
What about the Tribulation scenario?

Likewise, in the age to come, when someone in the Tribulation believes in Jesus but decided to take the mark because he needs to buy food to eat, is he justified before God?

The period of the tribulation will be a very difficult time. If accepting the mark, the individual will be doing so as an act of worship and/or obedience to the man of sin.

We believe as Christians that Jehovah will provide for our needs. Trusting in someone else is not trusting in Jehovah.

yeshuaslavejeff · Oct 10, 2019

thomas15 said:
works are essential for salvation. So much for Sola Gratia.

??
"Breathing is necessary" for a body to live. Right ? Does that do away with any grace or truth or faith ?

Guojing · Oct 10, 2019

Bramblewild said:
There is a principle of biblical interpretation that I think is wise. It goes something like this: clear passages of scripture help us to understand and interpret unclear passages.

"Justification can never be attained or earned by works" is based on clear biblical passages, some I've tried to point out in earlier comments.

I'm not going to try to answer all of your questions for you; rather, I'm going to point out this interpretation principle, just as I've tried to point out this truth about justification.

Now, use this interpretation tool, and look at the questions you have in light of "justification is only be faith".

And let me say one more thing, please: try to avoid reading things into the biblical accounts that simply aren't there. For example, the account of Abel's sacrifice in Genesis doesn't say that God sent fire from heaven.

I already used the word "probably", but it doesn't matter how since scripture already stated God accepted Abel's offering.

I can see why you wisely choose to avoid the Tribulation scenario because scripture clearly stated that you will need to believe in Jesus AND keep his commandments. (Revelations 14:12). That is an application of your clear passages interpret unclear ones.

But its okay, all of us in the body of Christ will be raptured before that scenario anyway, praise the Lord.

Guojing · Oct 10, 2019

thomas15 said:
One of the things I have learned in my study of the often mocked "free grace" theology is that many in reformed covenant theology teach that works are essential for salvation. So much for Sola Gratia.

Anyway....

The period of the tribulation will be a very difficult time. If accepting the mark, the individual will be doing so as an act of worship and/or obedience to the man of sin.

We believe as Christians that Jehovah will provide for our needs. Trusting in someone else is not trusting in Jehovah.

So you do agree that, once the grace dispensation is over, its back to faith and works, according to Rev 14:12?

Bramblewild · Oct 12, 2019

Guojing said:
I already used the word "probably", but it doesn't matter how since scripture already stated God accepted Abel's offering.

I can see why you wisely choose to avoid the Tribulation scenario because scripture clearly stated that you will need to believe in Jesus AND keep his commandments. (Revelations 14:12). That is an application of your clear passages interpret unclear ones.

But its okay, all of us in the body of Christ will be raptured before that scenario anyway, praise the Lord.

Then let me give you one or two more clear passages, and I'll consider this the end:

Galatians 1
6 I am astonished that you are l so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.

Galatians 2
15 We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; 16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

If you insist on believing that there is any way a person, any person at any point in history, can be justified by their own works, then you need to understand that you are believing another gospel, a false gospel.

You need to understand that is not a trivial thing you are claiming, and especially if you are any kind of preacher or evangelist. As Paul said, let those who preach a false gospel be condemned.

So, my finals words to you here are, stop trying to be clever, and finally admit that truth the Bible clearly states, that no one will be justified by their own works, but only by faith in Christ. There are no loopholes, there are and will never be any exceptions.

Guojing · Oct 12, 2019

Bramblewild said:
Then let me give you one or two more clear passages, and I'll consider this the end:

Galatians 1
6 I am astonished that you are l so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.

Galatians 2
15 We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; 16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

If you insist on believing that there is any way a person, any person at any point in history, can be justified by their own works, then you need to understand that you are believing another gospel, a false gospel.

You need to understand that is not a trivial thing you are claiming, and especially if you are any kind of preacher or evangelist. As Paul said, let those who preach a false gospel be condemned.

So, my finals words to you here are, stop trying to be clever, and finally admit that truth the Bible clearly states, that no one will be justified by their own works, but only by faith in Christ. There are no loopholes, there are and will never be any exceptions.

At least explain how you understand the equally clear verse rev 14:12.

thomas15 · Oct 16, 2019

Guojing said:
So you do agree that, once the grace dispensation is over, its back to faith and works, according to Rev 14:12?

I believe that the Bible teaches that man is saved by grace alone in each and every dispensation, from Adam to the last man on the last day.

Guojing · Oct 17, 2019

thomas15 said:
I believe that the Bible teaches that man is saved by grace alone in each and every dispensation, from Adam to the last man on the last day.

but if it’s by grace alone, that means everyone will be saved.

You are a universalist?

thomas15 · Oct 17, 2019

Guojing said:
but if it’s by grace alone, that means everyone will be saved.

You are a universalist?

No and no.

The gift of salvation is by grace alone ("....not by works least any man should boast." Eph. 2:8-9). The recipient must accept the gift and that is by placing his/her faith in the risen Christ (John 1:12).

drewcosten · Oct 17, 2019

Bramblewild said:
Then let me give you one or two more clear passages, and I'll consider this the end:

Galatians 1
6 I am astonished that you are l so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.

Galatians 2
15 We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; 16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

If you insist on believing that there is any way a person, any person at any point in history, can be justified by their own works, then you need to understand that you are believing another gospel, a false gospel.

You need to understand that is not a trivial thing you are claiming, and especially if you are any kind of preacher or evangelist. As Paul said, let those who preach a false gospel be condemned.

So, my finals words to you here are, stop trying to be clever, and finally admit that truth the Bible clearly states, that no one will be justified by their own works, but only by faith in Christ. There are no loopholes, there are and will never be any exceptions.

I don't think anyone here is claiming that anyone can be justified by works. Justification comes only through faith (although not our faith, but that's a whole other topic). Forgiveness (or pardon), on the other hand, requires both faith and works, but that's also another topic.

But the passage you quoted is a reason for the lack of realization of the existence of multiple Gospels in Scripture. Bad translations of the warning Paul gave in his epistle to the Galatians about preaching any other Gospel to the body of Christ than the one they’d already received has caused no end of confusion since Paul wasn’t saying there is only one true Gospel there, or that nobody could ever preach a Gospel to someone other than the one he taught the body of Christ. What most people who base their assumption on this passage aren’t aware of (likely because they’ve only read translations of Scripture that mistakenly say meaningless things like “another gospel which is not another” [which is it? Is it another Gospel or is it not another Gospel? It can’t be both] in the verses before his warning) is that he actually used two distinct Greek words rather than one (which means the passage should be rendered more along the lines of “a different gospel which is not another”) in order to differentiate between a legitimate Gospel that wasn’t his but was still perfectly okay to be taught to certain people and an illegitimate “gospel” that shouldn’t be taught by anyone at all, speaking of both a “different” (heteros [ἕτερος]) gospel and “another” (allos [ἄλλος]) Gospel. “Heteros” basically means “other of a differing sort” while “allos” means “other of the same sort,” so one was “another/allos” (fully legitimate, just like Paul’s) Gospel being preached by Peter, and one was a “different/heteros” gospel, that wasn’t even “another/allos” actual Gospel at all like Peter’s was, but was rather an adulterated mix of Peter’s Gospel and Paul’s Gospel that couldn’t save anyone. Likewise, Paul wasn’t saying people who taught that there were other Gospels were under a curse, since he did so himself just 24 verses later; he was only teaching that those who would preach any other Gospel to the body of Christ than the one they had already received as something they should follow were, but Peter and the rest of the apostles could preach their particular Gospel as something to be followed to anyone that they wanted to without fear as long as it wasn’t to members of the body of Christ. Unfortunately, the evangelists and teachers of the Christian religion today aren’t even proclaiming that one, but instead are the very people who are guilty of preaching the adulterated “different/heteros” Gospel that isn’t even “another/allos” legitimate Gospel at all like Peter’s was, bringing the curse Paul warned about upon themselves.

Guojing · Oct 17, 2019

thomas15 said:
No and no.

The gift of salvation is by grace alone ("....not by works least any man should boast." Eph. 2:8-9). The recipient must accept the gift and that is by placing his/her faith in the risen Christ (John 1:12).

So you need to receive it by faith, what grace has made freely available to all.

It’s important to be clear when you are discussing on an online forum.

No worries, when the grace dispensation is finally over, you will be in heaven, so even though you will need works during the tribulation, the chief being rejecting the mark of the beast, it won’t affect you

thomas15 · Oct 17, 2019

Guojing said:
It’s important to be clear when you are discussing on an online forum.

Have a nice day Guojing

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Are there dispensationalists who believe Paul's gospel is the same as the one preached in Matt-John?

thomas15

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yeshuaslavejeff

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Guojing

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Guojing

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Bramblewild

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Guojing

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thomas15

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Guojing

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thomas15

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drewcosten

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Guojing

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thomas15

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