Be brave to look at the evidences ! Is Catholicism right ?

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PeaceByJesus

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It's a fact that Jesus built his Church on Peter. Mat 13:9 : "Who hath ears to hear, let him hear."
A few Bible verses which indicate that Jesus wants everyone to convert to his Church (but that your denomination may interpret differently):
-Mat 16:18
-Matthew 18:15
-1 Timothy 3: 14-15
-John 3:4
-John 3:5
.
That is truly absurd. And that these texts are trotted out as establishing as "a fact" that Jesus built his Church on Peter, and that is the RCC as the one true church (OTC) is actually an argument against being a RC.

Part 1 of who knows how many due to a 1800 character, not word, limit):

Mat 13:9 refers to Christ's exhortation to listen to His parables, but which you apparently think this means (by way of egregious extrapolation) that one is required to hear Rome. Which presupposes that the RCC is the NT church, which position is simply untenable even by the fact that, as explained, distinctive Catholic teachings are not manifest in the only wholly inspired substantive authoritative record of what the NT church believed, which is Scripture, especially Acts thru Revelation (showing how they understood the OT and gospels).

Moreover, Christ affirmed the supernatural ministry of one operating independently in His name, Luke 9:49,50, even though he was not part of the disciples formal following, who thus objected to him. If demons heeded the man then people must also.

Next up, Mat 16:18 "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it,"

"This" best refers to what and who Peter just confessed, and which understanding some of the so-called “church fathers” concur with. For in contrast to Peter, that the LORD Jesus is the Rock (“petra”) or "stone" (“lithos,” and which denotes a large rock in Mk. 16:4) upon which the church is built is one of the most abundantly confirmed doctrines in the Bible (petra: Rm. 9:33; 1Cor. 10:4; 1Pet. 2:8; cf. Lk. 6:48; 1Cor. 3:11; lithos: Mat. 21:42; Mk.12:10-11; Lk. 20:17-18; Act. 4:11; Rm. 9:33; Eph. 2:20; cf. Dt. 32:4, Is. 28:16) including by Peter himself. (1Pt. 2:4-8)


Furthermore, even Catholic researchers (among others) provides historical testimony against t he propaganda of the NT church looking to Peter as the first of a line of infallible pope reigning from Rome.

To be cntd.
 
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PeaceByJesus

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It's a fact that Jesus built his Church on Peter. Mat 13:9 : "Who hath ears to hear, let him hear."
-Matthew 18:15 .
Part 2 (blame the 1800 character limit for the many posts):

Next we have Matthew 18:15. This, extended to v. 20 states: Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them. (Matthew 18:15-20)

Matthew 18:15-18, without the text that follows, is a standard text invoked by Catholics who mistakenly believe it supports only their own magisterial office, and as one that possesses ensured perpetual magisterial infallibility, which is a
novel and unScriptural premise.

For this is one of many teachings that support the establishment of authority to bind and loose, both religious and civil, formal and informal, and flows from the Old Testament, in which the "supreme court" of Israel could bind a man in his guilt or loose him, and in which dissent was a capital offense. (Deuteronomy 17:8-13) Disobedience to authority is also warned as being potentially deadly in Romans 13:1-7.


To be cntd.

And in the teaching of sola scriptura (such as the Westminster Confession) there is affirmation the authority of councils to Scripturally settle disputes.

To be cntd.
 
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PeaceByJesus

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It's a fact that Jesus built his Church on Peter. Mat 13:9 : "Who hath ears to hear, let him hear."

A few Bible verses which indicate that Jesus wants everyone to convert to his Church (but that your denomination may interpret differently):

-Mat 16:18
-Matthew 18:15
-1 Timothy 3: 14-15
-John 3:4
-John 3:5

I didn't say that every non catholic will go to hell, I just showed you what the Church teaches.. it seems that you didn't read it.
Part 3:

However, ensured perpetual magisterial infallibility as per Rome is nowhere promised or seen or essential for authority and preservation of faith, and is presumptuous, while the judgment of Matthew 18:15-17 requires the overall corporate consensus of the people. (cf. 2 Corinthians 2:10) And as with required obedience to civil "powers that be," then in principle valid authority does not apply to just one formal church or government or family (see below), but to all, requiring conditional (as long as not in conflict with the word of God) obedience to those under it.

And in addition, the judgment of a father on the vows of his daughter, or a husband over those of his wife were binding or loosing, (Numbers 30) and the power to bind and loose in Matthew 18:15-20 extends to "two or three are gathered together in my name."

And likewise, the only NT place confession of sins is exhorted is in James 5:16:

Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. And which is that of each other, not simply leadership, and in context this prayer of faith refers to binding and loosing, and which here is also applied to loosing one from their sins:

To be cntd.
 
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PeaceByJesus

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It's a fact that Jesus built his Church on Peter. Mat 13:9 : "Who hath ears to hear, let him hear."

A few Bible verses which indicate that Jesus wants everyone to convert to his Church (but that your denomination may interpret differently):

-Mat 16:18
-Matthew 18:15
-1 Timothy 3: 14-15
-John 3:4
-John 3:5

I didn't say that every non catholic will go to hell, I just showed you what the Church teaches.. it seems that you didn't read it.
Part 4:

Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain [binding]: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months. And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain [loosing], and the earth brought forth her fruit. Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. (James 5:17-20)

Therefore Matthew 18:15, with the text that follows, does not support the RCC as being the OTC to whom all must submit, any more than we must submit to all the laws of Israel, but must conditionally submit to the authorities over us where we are.

To be cntd.
 
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PeaceByJesus

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It's a fact that Jesus built his Church on Peter. Mat 13:9 : "Who hath ears to hear, let him hear."

A few Bible verses which indicate that Jesus wants everyone to convert to his Church (but that your denomination may interpret differently):

-Mat 16:18
-Matthew 18:15
-1 Timothy 3: 14-15
-John 3:4
-John 3:5

I didn't say that every non catholic will go to hell, I just showed you what the Church teaches.. it seems that you didn't read it.
Part 5:
Next, 1 Timothy 3: 14-18: "Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." .

That this refers to the RCC is also is a stretch, and a desperate one, for the pertinent section in the Greek just says "church living God pillar and ground the truth," and with pillar and ground both basically meaning "support,"with one of the words nowhere occurring elsewhere, which does not teach that the Catholic church itself is the infallible foundation of Truth, and supreme authority on it.

Instead, we must interpret this in the light of the rest of Scripture, esp. Acts - Rev., in which we see that the church upholding (pillar) and settled on the Truth. (cf. 1Co_15:58; Col_1:23 ) Rather than being The foundation of Truth, instead, prophetically and doctrinally the NT church and its gospel (Rm. 1:1,2) actually was built upon established preexisting Truth, Scripture, to which even the magisterial stewards of Scripture were to be subject to.

To be cntd.
 
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PeaceByJesus

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It's a fact that Jesus built his Church on Peter. Mat 13:9 : "Who hath ears to hear, let him hear."

A few Bible verses which indicate that Jesus wants everyone to convert to his Church (but that your denomination may interpret differently):

-Mat 16:18
-Matthew 18:15
-1 Timothy 3: 14-15
-John 3:4
-John 3:5

I didn't say that every non catholic will go to hell, I just showed you what the Church teaches.. it seems that you didn't read it.

Part 6:

Next, John 3:4,5: Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (John 3:4-5)

How this supports the RCC being the OTC (one true church) is hard to fathom, for if this is made to refer to baptism, then Rome affirms that even a non-Christian can baptize, if he (loosely) intend to do what the church intends. And she broadly affirms properly baptized Prots. to be Christians. Thus this verse does not support the premise that the RCC is the OTC any more than the rest.

Moreover, rather than as per RC doctrine of salvation , in which the act itself (ex opere operato) of baptism (even without the required personal wholehearted repentant justifying faith: Acts 2:38; 8:36,37) effects regeneration and makes one actually good enough (justified by his own righteousness: causa formalis) to be with God - until his remaining sinful nature manifestly shows he is not, thus resulting in the false doctrine of RC Purgatory in order to become good enough to be with God (and atone for sins);


To be cntd.
 
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PeaceByJesus

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It's a fact that Jesus built his Church on Peter. Mat 13:9 : "Who hath ears to hear, let him hear."

A few Bible verses which indicate that Jesus wants everyone to convert to his Church (but that your denomination may interpret differently):

-Mat 16:18
-Matthew 18:15
-1 Timothy 3: 14-15
-John 3:4
-John 3:5

I didn't say that every non catholic will go to hell, I just showed you what the Church teaches.. it seems that you didn't read it.

Part 7:

It is the heart-purifying regenerating faith behind baptism (all that we voluntarily choose to do is a result of what we truly believe, at least at the moment) that is counted for righteousness. And which evidences faith, and thus those who will believe and obey are promised salvation, just as those who believe. (Acts 2:38; 10:43; 15:7-9; Titus 3:5; cf. Mk. 7:2-16)

Therefore to think that the above verses teach as "a fact" that Jesus built his Church on Peter, and that is the RCC as the OTC is actually a testimony to ignorance and an abuse Scripture to support false teaching.
 
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concretecamper

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Scripture to back that up, please?
Off the top of my head I would say the Gospel of John and Genisis.

Jesus told us that unless you eat His Flesh and drink His blood you have no life in you. There is no where outside the His Church that this can happen.

Noah's Ark is seen as a prefigurement of the Church. Many Church Fathers and contemporary bible scholars agree. Outside the Ark, no one was saved.

Of course you are going to counter with your own meaning of these scriptures. But I am giving you what you asked for. And it would be beneficial for you to research.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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Yes baptized in the Roman Catholic Church as a baby, confirmed in the RCC as a teenager, then as an adult was re-baptized in the Catholic Church, known as the Body of Christ.
I believe the RCC Priesthood is not authoritative, so I confess my sins directly to the Lord, who already knows my sins and has already forgiven them.
Blessings
I am a life long Lutheran; like the Catholic Church, we consider re-baptism a sin. As in our Church, when you were baptized in the Catholic Church, through water and the Word, your sins were forgiven, and you received the Holy Spirit. To consent to re-baptism is denying the scriptural promise that Jesus Christ gave to His Church regarding the efficacy of baptism; it is a clear statement that you believe that God got it wrong the first time.

The sacraments are not about what we do; we have no part in them at all; rather they are all about what God does for us.

Period.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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The same might be said for the Augsburg Confession, the Refutation, and the response to the Refutation commonly known as the Apology of the Augsburg Confession. You ask if we are open minded enought to consider your video; are you open minded enough to consider our position, about 450 years older than your video?

Augsburg Confession - Book of Concord
1530 Roman Confutation
Defense of the Augsburg Confession - Book of Concord

I would hope so, but like most who have a drum to beat and a soap box, I'm not holding my breath. One sided dialogues hold no interest for me, and serve no one well.
As I expected; no response. LOL.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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I am a life long Lutheran; like the Catholic Church, we consider re-baptism a sin. As in our Church, when you were baptized in the Catholic Church, through water and the Word, your sins were forgiven, and you received the Holy Spirit. To consent to re-baptism is denying the scriptural promise that Jesus Christ gave to His Church regarding the efficacy of baptism; it is a clear statement that you believe that God got it wrong the first time.

The sacraments are not about what we do; we have no part in them at all; rather they are all about what God does for us.

Period.
I do not believe in infant baptism only in the believers baptism. It is not biblical nor for that matter is it a sin to be immersed a million times. What really matters is baptism in the Holy Spirit, this is what John the Baptist stressed to the Pharisees.
“I baptize with water those who repent of their sins and turn to God. But someone is coming soon who is greater than I am—so much greater that I’m not worthy even to be his slave and carry his sandals. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.

Blessings
 
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PeaceByJesus

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I am a Catholic for life, baptized and confirmed however, I disagree with 100 percent of man made doctrines developed through the centuries by the RCC. The Holy Spirit directs us in all truth so that is all I can count on with the solid foundation laid by the Apostles of Jesus Christ of Nazareth in both the new and old testaments known as, The Holy Scripture.
Blessings
It is true, that as shown, distinctive Catholic teachings are not manifest in the only wholly inspired substantive authoritative record of what the NT church believed (including how they understood the OT and gospels), which is Scripture, especially Acts thru Revelation.

But to deny such is to cease to be a Catholic, praise God, and I was somewhat as you after (as a weekly Mass-going RC) becoming manifestly born again thru deep repentance and faith in the risen Son of God to save me on His account. As a result I had an ongoing hunger to know how to please and serve God according to Scripture, and in that interest became an CCD and lector for some time as well as trying to tell others about their need for salvation (most subjects professed to be Catholics).

While i increasingly saw the difference btwn distinctive Catholic teachings and those of the NT, I saw a profound difference in spirit as well. Very rarely did I find fellowship with RCs (in my predominantly Catholic area) who had experienced the profound basic changes in heart and life that are a result of Biblical regeneration (even nature seemed new in a real sense to this rural truck driver, though I was also more conscious of my failings), and the few i found were in the marginalized charismatic groups I sometimes found time to be part of. Otherwise, most Masses tended be perfunctory professions (our parish priest would sometimes exhort us, "Sing like Protestants!"

Sometimes as I tried to evangelize I would meet born again believers from other churches, while i found evangelical radio to be best feeding my hunger (though i also went to RC Bible classes).

Finally, as i sought to obey the light i had and serve the Lord despite the overall deadness I found in my church and Catholic area, I sincerely prayed to God that "if it by Your will that I go to go to another church then i trust you will show me," and prayer He quickly did the next day, as I tried to witness to an old friend of my father, who told me of his evangelical church.

That led me into evangelical fellowship, with Catholic charismatic groups being the closest thing to such (but which would not progress) and since then I have seen more clearly the clear contradictory contrast btwn the faith and spirit of the NT church and that of Catholicism, as well as to deviations in Protestantism as a whole, and to a lesser degree evangelicalism (as well as my own failures and lack). But it is the latter type that the majority of the remnant believers are to be found, and which we should seek to be. By the grace of God.

Hope this helps. PeaceByJesus
 
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PeaceByJesus

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I am a life long Lutheran; like the Catholic Church, we consider re-baptism a sin. As in our Church, when you were baptized in the Catholic Church, through water and the Word, your sins were forgiven, and you received the Holy Spirit. To consent to re-baptism is denying the scriptural promise that Jesus Christ gave to His Church regarding the efficacy of baptism; it is a clear statement that you believe that God got it wrong the first time.
The sacraments are not about what we do; we have no part in them at all; rather they are all about what God does for us.
Period.
That re-baptism is a sin presumes the first baptism was valid, this being a convert's formal expression of the required repentant faith, (Acts 2:38: 8:36,37) and not an act itself effecting regeneration by which one is made actually good enough to be with God (until the remaining sinful nature is expressed, thus usually necessitating mythical RC Purgatory to become good enough to be with God, as per RC teaching .

Also, as regards your misleading beer-mugs "sin boldly," some context is required, which James Swan provides and in Shocking Beliefs of Martin Luther: Sin Boldly. It is only regenerating effectual heart-purifying faith (Acts 15:9) that is counted for righteousness. (Romans 4:5; Hebrews 6:9,19)

Luther also stated ,

“This is why St. Luke and St. James have so much to say about works, so that one says: Yes, I will now believe, and then he goes and fabricates for himself a fictitious delusion, which hovers only on the lips as the foam on the water. No, no; faith is a living and an essential thing, which makes a new creature of man, changes his spirit and wholly and completely converts him. It goes to the foundation and there accomplishes a renewal of the entire man; so, if I have previously seen a sinner, I now see in his changed conduct, manner and life, that he believes. So high and great a thing is faith.”[Sermons of Martin Luther 2.2:341]

More: Reformation faith and works
 
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Kenny'sID

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Off the top of my head I would say the Gospel of John and Genisis.

Jesus told us that unless you eat His Flesh and drink His blood you have no life in you. There is no where outside the His Church that this can happen.

Other churches do the ceremony so how do you mean it can't be done outside the Catholic church?

Noah's Ark is seen as a prefigurement of the Church. Many Church Fathers and contemporary bible scholars agree. Outside the Ark, no one was saved.

Traditions of men, and not the scripture I asked for. IOW, they made that up.

Of course you are going to counter with your own meaning of these scriptures. But I am giving you what you asked for.

I have to say mine/others interpretations don't include something we made up like the Ark thing. We can take just about anything in the bible, and "see it as" just about anything until we've created a new religion all together, so think I'll just go by the word of God as it stands...nothing added, nothing taken away. I would very much like to hear how the Catholics drew that conclusion, and saw the ark how you mention they do?

As far as the bread and wine ceremony, I'll wait for your reply on how you made your interpretation first.
 
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HopeInJesusOnly

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The Orthodox Church isn't only Greeks. We are commonly referred to as Eastern Orthodox, in contrast to the Oriental Orthodox (although "oriental" actually means "eastern", but I don't want to confuse anybody)

Indeed, today it does. And that is awesome.

The New Testament was written in Greek, which is why I made the initial distinction.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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But to deny such is to cease to be a Catholic,
I am afraid the Roman Catholic Church disagrees with you. My soul is marked forever regardless of my beliefs.

Catechism

1304- Like Baptism which it completes, Confirmation is given only once, for it too imprints on the soul an indelible spiritual mark, the "character," which is the sign that Jesus Christ has marked a Christian with the seal of his Spirit by clothing him with power from on high so that he may be his witness.
1305 -This "character" perfects the common priesthood of the faithful, received in Baptism, and "the confirmed person receives the power to profess faith in Christ publicly and as it were officially (quasi ex officio).
 
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concretecamper

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Other churches do the ceremony so how do you mean it can't be done outside the Catholic church?
Protestants dont have a valid priethood, therefore cannot have the Eucharist.
Traditions of men, and not the scripture I asked for. IOW, they made that up.
considering what I posted has been the understanding of the Church since the beginning, anything contrary would be the traditions of.men.
 
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