Deliverance Gifts.

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Carl Emerson

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Hi there,

If John dies around AD100, the Canon of scripture is closed and the gifts ceased, how come the church fathers continued to testify concerning deliverance and healings after that time?

Examples:

110 A.D. Ignatius of Antioch, Clement of Rome, Didache
150 A.D.-180 A.D. Justin Martyr, Tatian, Theophilus
190 A.D.-210 A.D. Irenaeus, Melito of Sardis, Tertullian, Minucius Felix
230 A.D.-300 A.D. Origen, Lactantius
325 A.D. Eusebius
375 A.D. Cyril of Jerusalem
 

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Hi there,

If John dies around AD100, the Canon of scripture is closed and the gifts ceased, how come the church fathers continued to testify concerning deliverance and healings after that time?

Examples:

110 A.D. Ignatius of Antioch, Clement of Rome, Didache
150 A.D.-180 A.D. Justin Martyr, Tatian, Theophilus
190 A.D.-210 A.D. Irenaeus, Melito of Sardis, Tertullian, Minucius Felix
230 A.D.-300 A.D. Origen, Lactantius
325 A.D. Eusebius
375 A.D. Cyril of Jerusalem
Very simple answer. The gifts, authority and power of the Church are as available and relevant today as they were 2,000 years ago. Christians who deny the power of God are self-fulfilling. They do not believe so they have no experience of God's power.
 
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swordsman1

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Healing never ceased. God can and still does heal today, eg in response to prayer. What has ceased is the GIFT of healing, the miraculous ability for a man to instantly and completely heal another man by nothing more than a touch or a command. If someone has to pray for healing it proves they do not have the gift of healing.
 
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Carl Emerson

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Well I have done just that with immediate results. Case in point - Sick brother in Christchurch NZ. difficulty breathing. Pain in chest.
Several prayed 'good prayers' without result. I was asked to pray - I then felt a burden for the man but as I did a dog under the bed started to moan... I asked that the dog be put out.
Then before I could pray I saw in a vision God removing the sickness.
Having seen what the Father was doing I proceeded to declare that the man be healed in Jesus name.
No prayer... just a proclamation based on what I had seen.
Immediate result, the brother got up out of bed healed.
 
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Saint Steven

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Hi there,

If John dies around AD100, the Canon of scripture is closed and the gifts ceased, how come the church fathers continued to testify concerning deliverance and healings after that time?

Examples:

110 A.D. Ignatius of Antioch, Clement of Rome, Didache
150 A.D.-180 A.D. Justin Martyr, Tatian, Theophilus
190 A.D.-210 A.D. Irenaeus, Melito of Sardis, Tertullian, Minucius Felix
230 A.D.-300 A.D. Origen, Lactantius
325 A.D. Eusebius
375 A.D. Cyril of Jerusalem
Hello Carl,
Thanks for posting this interesting topic.

I would say that the dozen examples you provided actually prove that the gifts did not cease with the death of the Apostles. The idea that the gifts ended is the opinion of Cessationists, not Continuationists, who say the gifts continued, as they should. Much to say on this topic. But I will wait until the proper time.

I would also like to address the idea of the canon of scripture being "closed". The canon of NT scripture was not a singular writing that stopped with the book of Revelation in 95 AD. The New Testament canon was a collection of books in an approved form (27 books) that was not finalized until the Council of Carthage AD 397. Late in the fourth century.

Therefore, the NT canon could not have closed in 95 AD, as it did not exist in any form until 170 AD. Which at that time did not include Hebrews, James, 1 and 2 Peter, and 3 John.

Additionally, just to clarify, Deliverance (casting out demons) is not referred to as a gift in the Bible. Though it is dependent on a number of the listed gifts. Deliverance, I would say is a ministry. In the same category as administering water baptism, intercessory prayer, and preaching the gospel.

Deliverance may involve one or more of these spiritual gifts from the list in 1 Cor.12. A message of wisdom, a message of knowledge, faith, miraculous power, prophecy, distinguishing between spirits, speaking in tongues, the interpretation of tongues.
 
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bling

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Well I have done just that with immediate results. Case in point - Sick brother in Christchurch NZ. difficulty breathing. Pain in chest.
Several prayed 'good prayers' without result. I was asked to pray - I then felt a burden for the man but as I did a dog under the bed started to moan... I asked that the dog be put out.
Then before I could pray I saw in a vision God removing the sickness.
Having seen what the Father was doing I proceeded to declare that the man be healed in Jesus name.
No prayer... just a proclamation based on what I had seen.
Immediate result, the brother got up out of bed healed.
What keeps you from going into a hospital and healing everyone in there?
 
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Saint Steven

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What keeps you from going into a hospital and healing everyone in there?
We've heard that one before.

I'll let Carl speak for himself, but here's what I have to say.

I'm pretty sure that if God told Carl to do that (heal everyone in the hospital), he would.
But I'm guessing that God didn't tell Carl to do that.

When God chooses to heal someone through us, he chooses who that is, not us.
 
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Carl Emerson

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What keeps you from going into a hospital and healing everyone in there?
Yes, we have found that His purpose in healing is quite specific. Faith comes from hearing the Word of Christ. It requires cultivating the ability to be able to 'see' what the Father is doing then co-operating with this in obedience.
What's your opinion on healing ministries?
A good example is Post #70 on the thread above.
 
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bling

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We've heard that one before.

I'll let Carl speak for himself, but here's what I have to say.

I'm pretty sure that if God told Carl to do that (heal everyone in the hospital), he would.
But I'm guessing that God didn't tell Carl to do that.

When God chooses to heal someone through us, he chooses who that is, not us.
Is there some scriptural difference between the ones God choses to heal and those he does not chose to heal?
I know if the person through which God does the healing must have faith and if the people in the area expect you to heal them or their friends they "Lack faith" and healing cannot take place, but how much faith does the person being healed need?
can you find scripture stating from someone with the gift of healing saying: "God did not tell me to heal you so I can't heal you?
Those speaking in tongs in Corinth seemed to be very disruptive so did god tell them to speak?
 
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Carl Emerson

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Is there some scriptural difference between the ones God choses to heal and those he does not chose to heal?
I know if the person through which God does the healing must have faith and if the people in the area expect you to heal them or their friends they "Lack faith" and healing cannot take place, but how much faith does the person being healed need?
can you find scripture stating from someone with the gift of healing saying: "God did not tell me to heal you so I can't heal you?
Those speaking in tongs in Corinth seemed to be very disruptive so did god tell them to speak?

Well the Spirit moves somewhat like the wind... His purposes are past finding out.

A good example is my mother was alone as a widow in the country, she woke up with a heavy sense of God's presence and was physically moved around in the bed. As a result she was healed of a stomach issue she carried for 28 years resulting from when I was born. No special prayers, no one else was there.

We tend to try and formulate His activity when learning to walk with Him would be much more productive.
 
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swordsman1

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Well I have done just that with immediate results. Case in point - Sick brother in Christchurch NZ. difficulty breathing. Pain in chest.
Several prayed 'good prayers' without result. I was asked to pray - I then felt a burden for the man but as I did a dog under the bed started to moan... I asked that the dog be put out.
Then before I could pray I saw in a vision God removing the sickness.
Having seen what the Father was doing I proceeded to declare that the man be healed in Jesus name.
No prayer... just a proclamation based on what I had seen.
Immediate result, the brother got up out of bed healed.

If you had the ability to instantly and completely heal people with just a "proclamation" I would expect you to be world famous. Just as Jesus and the early Christian leaders were when they, without fail, performed multiple undeniable miraculous healings, authenticating them as being messengers of God.

As for the man you claim was healed by your proclamation, didn't you say that other people prayed for him? How do you know he wasn't healed as a result of their prayers, rather than your supernatural ability?

That's assuming of course a miraculous healing occurred at all. 90% of claimed miracles are nothing of the sort. We don't know for instance what, if any, illness the man was diagnosed with. A report of "chest pains" is not a diagnosed disease. Nor do we know to what degree he was healed. Are there doctors reports that confirm the man was instantly and completely cured of his diagnosed illness? Or are we expected to believe another unsubstantiated "story" and change our doctrine accordingly on such flimsy evidence?
 
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swordsman1

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I would also like to address the idea of the canon of scripture being "closed". The canon of NT scripture was not a singular writing that stopped with the book of Revelation in 95 AD. The New Testament canon was a collection of books in an approved form (27 books) that was not finalized until the Council of Carthage AD 397. Late in the fourth century.

Therefore, the NT canon could not have closed in 95 AD, as it did not exist in any form until 170 AD. Which at that time did not include Hebrews, James, 1 and 2 Peter, and 3 John.

The canon was completed when the last person authorised and inspired to write scripture wrote their last words. Which was around AD100 as Carl corrected stated. The compilation of those inspired writings into a book we know as "the Bible" is something completely different.
 
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Saint Steven

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Is there some scriptural difference between the ones God choses to heal and those he does not chose to heal?
Carl referred to it in his post. Here's the scripture.

John 5:19
Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.
 
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Saint Steven

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can you find scripture stating from someone with the gift of healing saying: "God did not tell me to heal you so I can't heal you?
This will answer your hospital question as well. God uses his ministers as he wills.

Luke 4:25-27
I assure you that there were many widows in Israel in Elijah’s time, when the sky was shut for three and a half years and there was a severe famine throughout the land. 26 Yet Elijah was not sent to any of them, but to a widow in Zarephath in the region of Sidon. 27 And there were many in Israel with leprosy in the time of Elisha the prophet, yet not one of them was cleansed—only Naaman the Syrian.”
 
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Carl Emerson

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If you had the ability to instantly and completely heal people with just a "proclamation" I would expect you to be world famous. Just as Jesus and the early Christian leaders were when they, without fail, performed multiple undeniable miraculous healings, authenticating them as being messengers of God.

As for the man you claim was healed by your proclamation, didn't you say that other people prayed for him? How do you know he wasn't healed as a result of their prayers, rather than your supernatural ability?

That's assuming of course a miraculous healing occurred at all. 90% of claimed miracles are nothing of the sort. We don't know for instance what, if any, illness the man was diagnosed with. A report of "chest pains" is not a diagnosed disease. Nor do we know to what degree he was healed. Are there doctors reports that confirm the man was instantly and completely cured of his diagnosed illness? Or are we expected to believe another unsubstantiated "story" and change our doctrine accordingly on such flimsy evidence?

Firstly I am not trying to convince anyone of anything, I am just relating what we enjoyed back in the 70's.

Secondly I have been kept out of the limelight for 40 years and only now feel a freedom to share what I have learned. It as all about Him anyway, I don't consider I have a special gift. Just a foolish life reconstructed by Him into something fruitful.

I do however believe that many miss the opportunity to walk with Him in obedience because they keep studying the road map and don't step out in 'the way'. All of what I saw was in response to simply believing and obeying His word. He said pray for the sick so I did. Sometimes I saw a healing over time and sometimes an instantaneous release. What He did was His business, I can point to medically confirmed instances and name names but frankly I doubt it would make a fig of difference.
 
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HopeInJesusOnly

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Well I have done just that with immediate results. Case in point - Sick brother in Christchurch NZ. difficulty breathing. Pain in chest.
Several prayed 'good prayers' without result. I was asked to pray - I then felt a burden for the man but as I did a dog under the bed started to moan... I asked that the dog be put out.
Then before I could pray I saw in a vision God removing the sickness.
Having seen what the Father was doing I proceeded to declare that the man be healed in Jesus name.
No prayer... just a proclamation based on what I had seen.
Immediate result, the brother got up out of bed healed.

I wish I knew you in real life; I need healing and deliverance.

Thanks for sharing this story. God bless.
 
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Healing never ceased. God can and still does heal today, eg in response to prayer. What has ceased is the GIFT of healing, the miraculous ability for a man to instantly and completely heal another man by nothing more than a touch or a command. If someone has to pray for healing it proves they do not have the gift of healing.
OK, so my chronic liver condition from 48 years ago still exists. Except it doesn't.
 
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Carl Emerson

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I wish I knew you in real life; I need healing and deliverance.

Thanks for sharing this story. God bless.

I have wondered about setting up a small group to minister online I am unsure if this could work out or not.

The bottom line is that if He is not moving, any efforts will be in vain.

Maybe this is something to pray about...
 
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HopeInJesusOnly

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I have wondered about setting up a small group to minister online I am unsure if this could work out or not.

The bottom line is that if He is not moving, any efforts will be in vain.

Maybe this is something to pray about...

For sure. It would be a blessing.
 
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Hi there,

If John dies around AD100, the Canon of scripture is closed and the gifts ceased,

The canon of Scripture was not closed in AD 100, but a few hundred years later.
The gifts of the Spirit did not cease then, nor have they now.
 
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