Who is "Morning star"?

The Righterzpen said:

Yes, giving much consideration to the wrath of God is a very sobering endeavor.

After stringing together a bunch of different passages though; I've come to the conclusion that the scope of who was actually atoned for, may surprise us. In the last post about the atonement; I made mention of those who appeared in heaven "out of great tribulation" from the OT side of the cross who are described as from "every tribe, kindred, tongue and nation".

Here's another study I did, that you might find interesting.

Bible Study: Theory on Who's Covered by the Blood of Christ, a bible fanfic | FanFiction



The reason stated for Noah's flood was that man had become so evil that God felt the need to "cleanse the earth". Now it's true that He said He'd never again destroy everything with a global flood; yet we still see floods. We still see "Biblically epic" natural disasters that wipe out entire islands. Look at Hurricane Katrina. Although much of New Orleans was evacuated; the city still hasn't recovered.

I did clean up after Desert Storm and as a result of that war; Saudi Arabia's ruling class decided they'd never again let foreign militaries on their soil. Now why is that? A very interesting thing happened during Desert Storm. The Saudi military people would ask us western soldiers for two things: current events magazines and Bibles. Allied forces left an estimated 500,000 Bibles in Saudi Arabia as a result of that war. Apparently there are elect in Saudi Arabia God intends to redeem and He "got to them" through us! Nothing happens that doesn't fulfill His purposes in one way or another; even if we don't understand it.

These are hard questions and don't feel like you're the only one who has a hard time wrapping your brain around it. Me personally, I have no idea why God redeemed me? Scripture says "God is love." and evidently the demonstration of that love is the redemption plan. I can't wrap my brain around it. I believe it by faith; but I can't wrap my brain around it. I provide God no reason for Him to love me.

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The Righterzpen said:

@-Luca



Now I'm giving you fair warning here - it's not likely you have ever heard this explanation any place else; but it has totally come out of comparing Bible verses to each other.

Genesis 2:7
Exodus 12
Pslam 104:29
Jeremiah 25:15-16
Jeremiah 30
Daniel 9:27
Jonah 2:2
Matthew 24:6-13
Matthew 24:22&29, Mark 13:20&24
Luke 13:32
Luke 22:43
Luke 23:45
John 12:1-3
John 12:29&31
John 18:1&6
Revelation 20:1-3

John 12:1-3 - Mary (Lazarus's sister) anoints Jesus's feet "6 days before the Passover". Jesus says to Judas: "Leave her alone, against the day of my burial she has kept this." That "time clue" is important; keep it in the back of your head!

Daniel 9:27 "confirm the covenant for a week". From the time Mary anoints Jesus's feet to the day of the crucifixion is "one week". This happens Thursday after sundown (which would have commenced Friday. This is the start of "the great tribulation".

Friday - I don't think the Scriptures tell us specifically what Jesus did Friday day. (Probably preached in the temple.)

Saturday - Sabbath.

Sunday - Triumphant entry into Jerusalem.

Monday - Preached in the temple. Jesus tells a pharisee who comes to Him to warn Him that Herod wants to kill Him. Jesus says "Tell that fox: Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I shall be perfected." The "third day" is the commencement of Wednesday.

The word "perfected" here is kind of a weird word. It literally means "to come to the fullness of extension" and is usually used in context of conceiving children. We'd use the world "climax". So Jesus "comes to His climax" which in context of this verse he's referring to casting out devils, doing cures and preaching.

Now this language is rather sexually graphic and why Jesus uses this metaphor; I'm not sure. (I do suppose for anyone who's ever wondered if Jesus understood the process; apparently He did.) Was this kind of metaphor culturally common? Good question; I don't know that either.

Matthew 19; Jesus makes a series of statements that actually describe His own choice to "be a eunuch" "for the sake of reigning in the Kingdom." (Not get married and produce children.) The end of verse 12 actually conveys that the power of God was required to restrain Him from doing so. That's another fascinating passage.

There are other sorts of passages in the Scripture that I've found that are similar to this sort of thing. 1 Corinthians 7:36 speaks of a virgin who's "passed the flower of her age". I think that's a metaphor to state that she's no longer a virgin. Compare Exodus 22:16. Non-espoused people who'd had sex were expected to get married. If they refused, then they were to be executed as "fornicators".

There's another passage in 1 Timothy 4 where it looks like Paul is throwing together a bunch of random concepts; yet again after looking at the language I suspect it may be metaphoric for having children and not attempting to curtail the process of conception. There is a Kingdom purpose in that believers are often born to other believers. Goes with the concept of "I'll be a God to you and your children."

Anyways back to the atonement:

Again though, go back to Daniel 9:27. "the middle of the week" is "Messiah cut off".

Tuesday - Preaches in the temple. Leaves the temple Tuesday before sundown. Jesus and disciples are having a conversation about the temple being destroyed.

Thunder is heard (John 12:29). Jesus explains to them what that thunder is. (John 12:31) Satan has been cast out of heaven. (Revelation 20:1-3)

From here Jesus goes to Bethany to dinner at the house of Simon the leper. (Since we are after sundown - we are now into Wednesday) While He's eating an anonymous woman pours a jar of oil over His head. Again He tells the disciples: "She's done this for my burial". (Matthew 24:6-13)

This is the commencement of the "3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth". We know this because exactly 3 / 24 hour periods later - Jesus is dead!

This is also the commencement of the "middle of the weeK" when the Messiah is cut off.

Wednesday - That night Jesus washes the disciples feet and spends much of the rest of the night explaining to them what will happen to Him.

Thursday - They prepare for the passover Thursday morning. Eat it in the upper room Thursday night. They leave the building and go to the "garden" near a brook Cedron; (John 18:1) which is in the Mt. of Olives but is not "Gethsemane".

This is the first attempt to arrest Jesus. A small band come and ask for Jesus. He says. "I am" and they all fall over backwards. (John 18:6) This is one of 4 places in the Scripture that speak of people "falling backwards" and in all those places, they are under the condemnation of God. This should tell you something about the modern "pentecostal" practice of "slain in the spirit". All the people in Scripture who "fell before God" went face down, not backwards. I digress here - but anyways.

They go from this garden to gethsemane. A "gethsemane" is not a garden. There were multiple "gethsemane(s)" in the Mt. of Olives. A gethsemane is where an olive press is. They were located inside caves and this is where they pressed the olives for the oil that burned the lamps in the temple. During feasts when lots of people were in Jerusalem, people would stay in these caves as shelter.

Passover:

So Jesus is in this cave and an angel comes to Him. (Luke 22:43) What angel is this? The passage in English says "....angel from heaven; strengthening him..." but the Greek actually means "display of force against". So, go back to Exodus 12. What angel passes through the land at midnight on the passover to kill the first born? (The angel of death.) So who is this angel who comes to Jesus? (It's the angel of death.) What does the angel of death do to Jesus.

Scripture explains to us that when organisms die, the "breath of life" returns to God. (Psalm 104:29) The breath of life is what makes men "living souls". (Genesis 2:7)

So the angel of death removes the breath of life from Jesus which confines His soul to Sheol. Jesus does not die though; why not? Because He has a Divine nature inseparably joined to a human nature.

This is the "shortening" of "the tribulation" because if "the tribulation is not shortened; no flesh would be saved"! (Matthew 24:22) When is "flesh saved". That has to do with the atonement!

What is "3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth". That is speaking of the wrath of God. "Out of the belly of hell you heard my cry." (Jonah 2:2)

Look at Jesus's behavior from the point He leaves the temple to the night of passover. He's extremely distressed. Why? Jeremiah 30 answers that question. This passage also talks about "Jacob's trouble" which is "the great tribulation". What is "Jacob" afraid of? (vs 10) He's afraid of failing God. He's afraid of losing what he came to accomplish. "Jacob" is not eternally lost though on account of Jacob's own righteousness. God being just though, can not rightfully condemn someone who is not a sinner. This is why Jesus's own personal integrity is so important to the atonement.

Jeremiah 25 talks about "the cup of God's wrath" causes the nations to "go mad". "Jacob" is probably also afraid of going insane and that is what will happen if God does not intervene. And this is why the angel of death confines Jesus's soul to hades. Jesus is determined to compete this course of action; but He can't do so if He's an emotional mess.

Now would the Romans have crucified someone they deemed to be insane? Probably not.

Note Jesus's interactions with people from the point this angel leaves until Jesus dies. He remains morally and cognitively intact; but absolutely emotionless.

By the point of "Why have you forsaken me". "I thirst" and "It is finished" Jesus becomes more and more difficult to understand. Those who wrote the Scripture give us by interpretation from the Holy Spirit what Jesus said; but those who were present could not understand Him. The Greek denotes that His "cries" sound like the screeching of a crow. Obviously as His body breaks down; He's no longer able to produce intelligible speech.

Last thing says He bows His head and "gives up" or "sends off" His spirit. This is his human spirit, not the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost, just as the Father had already forsaken Him. Jesus dies because the Divine nature is rent from the human nature. This is what actually kills him.

His soul is released from Sheol (as well as the souls of all those He's atoned for who died on the OT side of the cross). Soul and spirt ascend to heaven to stand before the Father as "the lamb that was slain". We see this in Revelation 5. Note who's there with Him. "those who've come out of great tribulation". They are "souls" (not bodies) who "live and reign with Him 1000 years". (Revelation 6:9, Revelation 20:4)

Jesus's body rests on the Sabbath.

Rises from the dead on Sunday before dawn. Ephesians 1:18-22 tell us that Christ begins to "reign" when He rises from the dead.

Now when does Jesus ascend back to the Father? (I.E. in bodily form as a whole person) That happens 40 days later.

Why does Jesus tell Mary not to touch Him? Other people touch Him later on (women included). He says to her that He still has to ascend to the Father; yet we have no other Scriptural evidence that suggests Jesus left the earth and went back to heaven in bodily form between Sunday resurrection and the ascension.

Matter of fact this word "ascend" Strong's # 305. Is only used once in the context of "ascend to heaven". Acts 2:34 talks about David has not "ascended" to heaven before "the Lord says to my Lord sit at my right hand...." When does Jesus "sit down at the right hand of God the Father". My assumption is upon the ascension; He "sits down at the right hand of God". That one I'd have to research some more on though.

So why He told Mary not to touch Him may have had more to do with His own processing of His personal experience of being resurrected. The Father gets to look at me before anyone else does, type of thinking; and I think the instruction to - No, let them touch You because how else are they going to know this is real, would have let Jesus know that it's OK they touch Him.

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JackRT said:

This is an example of philosophical overthink. God, being God, has no limitations. God can forgive the unforgivable sin.

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Neogaia777 said:

First, Jesus said that line about being forsaken "for us" and not himself, and next, Jesus supposedly spent three days in the "heart of the earth" which many think may have been Hades or hell preaching there, etc, and, about the last part, about Satan, etc, some think that and those events might have already occurred, but I am not one of them, I still think the event of.Satan being locked away for a thousand years or age or era has not yet happened or come to.pass quite yet, yet, etc, just as many of the events in Revelation haven't yet, etc, but some think otherwise, that much of them or it already has, etc, but I'm not one of them, etc...

God Bless!

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Neogaia777 said:

One can only commit that sin when they have a full exact fully enlightened working knowledge of who the Holy Spirit really and fully truly is, and was, and is now, etc, otherwise they really cannot, not really... (and many don't, etc)...

God Bless!

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The Righterzpen said:

Because the Father had forsaken Him; and so had the Holy Ghost.

Jesus didn't just "say that for our benefit" that was a real experience He endured.

Part of what the atonement entailed was to bear wrath for sin. Well to bear wrath for sin means to be forsaken by God. Those that are cast into the lake of fire at the end of time are cast outside of God's presence. And if you notice, they bear that punishment as whole individuals (both body and soul). This is why in the end all humanity is resurrected; not just those who receive eternal life.

So the majority of the "3 days and 3 nights" in the heart of the earth, Jesus endured as a whole person (body and soul). His soul was severed from His personhood when the angel of death came at the passover and consigned His soul to hades. If He didn't have a Divine nature, He would have died then and there.

Now if you go read psalm 139; (I'll give you a link to it in another study I did) you'll get a fascinating explanation of Jesus's experience of being human and how what He came to understand about Himself (His body), how He was "created", why He was "created"; interacted upon His psyche in the relationship He had with the Father and Spirit.

It's a fascinating psalm to research in the Hebrew. Jesus was very "specially made" and He knew that. He was unlike any other human being that ever existed and He grew to learn the full implication of what that meant over the course of His life. He knew at 12 years old that He was the Messiah. Now did He know that meant these leaders He was speaking to in the temple (at 12 years old) were going to crucify Him? At that time; probably not. Did He know He was the sacrifice? Probably, because of the story of Abraham and Issac.

Now this story about Jesus in the temple at 12 years old is actually rather comical, especially if you know anything about human developmental stages. LOL

So here's 12 year old Jesus thinking "I must be about my Father's business." So I'll go to the temple; (which was probably the first time He actually remembered being there, because 12 years old would have been the first time he was "required" by law and custom to go and "perform his religious duty" as a male Israelite.)

So here enters another aspect of this story that we can ascertain both by Scripture as well as anthropology. At 12 years old, Jesus was no where close to even starting puberty. Historically, He likely would have been between 16 and 18 years old before starting puberty. Puberty takes about 2.5 years to complete in humans. We know historically people entered puberty later than they did, starting in about the 20th century. (In 3rd world countries this is still true; puberty is delayed until the latter teen years.)

So here's little bitty Jesus; probably no bigger than 4.5 feet high and 70 or 80lbs soaking wet! The average Jewish male in the 1st Century didn't top 5ft. 3inches high or more than 130lbs. The average Roman soldier was 5ft 6inches high and 160lbs.

And developmentally, bitty Jesus here had another milestone He hadn't hit yet; mylenezation of the brain. The peripheral nervous system is mylenized first. That begins shortly after birth (which gives one the ability to move their body through space). Mylenezation of the brain starts at about 12 years old and takes until one is about 18 or 19 years old to complete. Mylenezation of the brain (among many other things) gives one the ability to foresee and think through possible consequences to their actions. I.E. If I "get lost" Joseph is probably going to get mad. (And Joseph did get mad. That's implied in the Greek.)

So Jesus is skipping off to the temple thinking Oh well, what does Abba want me to do and so He's talking to scribes, pharisees and doctors of the law; and these guys are impressed with His understanding. At that point they probably wanted to take Him and stick Him in one of their yeshiva schools. (Which possibly / probably would have subjugated Him to sexual abuse; because that was common in those types of environments in the Hellenized Jewish ancient world. Take a look at Herod Antipas - the Herod who crucified Christ was probably homosexual.) Jesus also would have run the risk of getting abducted off the streets of Jerusalem and sold as a temple prostitute in these Roman / Greek temples. (That was also a common thing that happened to kids who were wandering about alone.) He probably wasn't particularly aware of those dangers; (or if He was; He didn't think about it - 12 year olds don't. That's part of the developmental phase they exist in.)

So 3 days later Mary and Joseph finally find Him and He says to Mary; "How is it you're looking for me? (or why would you be looking for me) Don't you know that I must be about my Father's business?" Then all the sudden everyone is looking at Him. (Well, Jesus that was the "wrong" thing to say.)
Then at some point DAD clues Him in: I appreciate your enthusiasm. You got spunk Kid; but You also got a lot to learn. Go back to Nazareth!
Jesus: Ehhh, OK.?!.....
(And Joseph is over there ready to paddle His little Divine behind.)

Scripture says Jospeh was a just man though; so he probably just swallowed his anger at this hapless adopted little child, walked over, literally picked Jesus up and walked out.
(Abba Father, this is embarrassing. I feel really small right now.)

LOL

Psalm 139 - last page of study.
What Did He REALLY look like? Chapter 4: Psalm 139, a bible fanfic | FanFiction


Yes, He did.
Psalm 16:10
Acts 2:27
1 Peter 3:18-20



So he can not deceive the nations. Revelation 20:3



Yes, these are differing schools of eschatological (end times study) thought. Dispensationalists don't believe the 1000 year reign has started yet. A-millennialists do. I'm an a-millennialist. I believe Satan was bound in the bottomless pit either just before the atonement started, or at the resurrection. the end of Ephesians 1 tells us Christ was given all reign, of domains and authority at the resurrection. Satan was cast out of heaven just prior to the atonement starting. That is recorded in John 12.

I believe we are now at the point where Satan has been loosed. And I'd be surprised if Christ doesn't return in our lifetime.

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