Be brave to look at the evidences ! Is Catholicism right ?

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I commend you on your loyalty to the RCC. It is always good to stand up for what you believe in.

However, the largest church is not the RCC.. The largest church is the body of Christ that includes all those that believe on the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Saying that a denomination of the Christian religion, the RCC, is "right" due to it's numbers.. is like saying that truth is a democracy...

This is false.

All Christian religious denominations have errors and faults. Numbers don't mean correctness.

If you want to be technical... the largest church in the world... would be the church of Non Believers... They far out number any Christian Church..... Is that by the will of God?

Catechism of the Catholic Church

815 What are these bonds of unity? Above all, charity "binds everything together in perfect harmony."265 But the unity of the pilgrim Church is also assured by visible bonds of communion:
- profession of one faith received from the Apostles;
-common celebration of divine worship, especially of the sacraments;
- apostolic succession through the sacrament of Holy Orders, maintaining the fraternal concord of God's family.

All the "churches" are not ONE.


 
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Albion

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I don't believe in sola scriptura that's for sure because it's not scriptural
So...scripture isn't scriptural. Why would you say that?

What are you claiming that Scripture says is the equal of God's word?? If there is something, then you would most likely have proved your point, but only then.
 
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Mountainmike

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I know what the church calls itself. It uses both "Catholic" and "Roman Catholic." The legal name of the church in this country includes the word "Roman."

I have to admit the "henry got his leg over church" has more of an interesting title to it.
It just doesnt have such a sound theological underpinning.
 
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Mountainmike

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Scripture is scriptural.
Sola scriptura is certainly not scriptural, indeed it points to truth outside itself.

Indeed without the right meaning, scripture is not the Word of God.
There can only be one truth.

That missing bit "meaning" shows that scripture cannot be alone. Meaning is carried by faith handed down. AKA tradition.

Which is why we believe in Sola verbum dei, of which scripture is a vital part but only a part.

Back round in the usual circles. Dont you get bored of this albion?


So...scripture isn't scriptural. Why would you say that?

What are you claiming that Scripture says is the equal of God's word?? If there is something, then you would most likely have proved your point, but only then.
 
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Albion

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Scripture is scriptural.
Sola scriptura is certainly not scriptural, indeed it points to truth outside itself.

Don't let me delay your explanation of how we know that to be so.
 
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PeaceByJesus

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If that were indeed the case, the Roman Catholic Church wouldn't use the name ITSELF, which it certainly does.
Indeed it does, even before the Reformation, while the EOs also call themselves the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, but asserting it does not make it true.
 
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JacksBratt

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Catechism of the Catholic Church

815 What are these bonds of unity? Above all, charity "binds everything together in perfect harmony."265 But the unity of the pilgrim Church is also assured by visible bonds of communion:
- profession of one faith received from the Apostles;
-common celebration of divine worship, especially of the sacraments;
- apostolic succession through the sacrament of Holy Orders, maintaining the fraternal concord of God's family.

All the "churches" are not ONE.
So, the Catechism of the Catholic Church says that they are "the" church"... sounds legit......

What about these? Who make up "the body of Christ"? Who make up "the church" in these passages?

There is ONE church. It is all those who are the children of God.. All those who have accepted Christ as savior..

Do you think that only RC's are saved?

1 Corinthians 12:12


For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ.



Ephesians 5:23


For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body.


1 Corinthians 12:13


For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

Ephesians 5:29-30

for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church, because we are members of His body.

 
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PeaceByJesus

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In addition, if "Roman" were not used (as it is on the sign in front of the Catholic church nearest my home), the reference could be understood as applying to one of the other Catholic church bodies--Old Catholics, for example.
Ubi Primum, Pope Leo XII, May 5, 1824: "“By heart we believe and by mouth confess the one Church, not of heretics but the Holy Roman, Catholic , and Apostolic Church outside which we believe that no one is saved.”
Vatican Council I (1870): "The holy, Catholic, Apostolic, Roman Church ..."
Pope Pius XII Mystici Corporis Christi (June 29, 1943): "this true Church of Jesus Christ - which is the One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic and Roman Church ..."
Pope Pius XII, Humani Generis (12 August 1950): "the Mystical Body of Christ and the Roman Catholic Church are one and the same thing"
The "Roman" distinction even preceded the Reformation, and continued after it began:
Dictatus Papae (1075): "That the Roman church has never erred; nor will it err to all eternity, the Scripture bearing witness.”
Pope Innocent III profession required of the Waldensians: “With our hearts we believe and with our lips we confess but one Church, not that of the heretics, but the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church, outside which we believe that no one is saved.” (Denzinger 423)
Bull Cantate Domino, by Pope Eugene IV, 1441: "The most Holy Roman Church..."
Exsurge Domine1 promulgated by Pope Leo X against Martin Luther: "the eminent cardinals of the holy Roman Church ."
QUO PRIMUM TEMPORE, 4 July 1570 "the Holy Roman Church .." Pope Paul IV, Cum Ex Apostolatus Officio of 1559: "the Holy Roman Church ..."
 
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PeaceByJesus

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For Mary, I'll direct you to my video about Mary for protestants ;)


I don't believe in sola scriptura that's for sure because it's not scriptural
So you do not believe in SS because you believe in SS? But who knows what you mean by sola scriptura, seeing it is usually misconstrued.

Some qestions for those who deny it in preference to the Catholic alternative of sola Roma:

  1. What is God's manifest most reliable permanent means of preserving what He told man as well as what man does: oral transmission or writing?

  2. What became the established supreme authoritative source for testing Truth claims: oral transmission or "it is written/Scripture?"

  3. Which came first: the written word of God and an authoritative body of it, or the NT church?

  4. Did the establishment of a body of wholly inspired authoritative writings await the church and require an infallible magisterium?

  5. Which transcendent sure source was so abundantly invoked by the Lord Jesus and NT church in substantiating her claims to the nation that was the historical instruments and stewards of express Divine revelation: oral transmission or writing?

  6. Was the veracity of Scripture subject to testing by the oral words of men or vice versa?

  7. Do Catholic popes and councils speak or write as wholly inspired of God in giving His word like as men such as apostles did, and also provide new public revelation thereby?

  8. In the light of the above, do you deny that only Scripture is the supreme, wholly inspired-of-God substantive and authoritative word of God, and sure record of what the NT church believed?

  9. Do you think sola scripture must mean that only the Bible is to be used in understanding what God says?

  10. Do you think the sufficiency aspect of sola scripture must mean that the Bible formally provides everything needed for salvation and growth in grace, including reason, writing, ability to discern, teachers, synods, etc. or that this sufficiency refers to Scripture as regards sources of express Divine revelation, and which materially provides for such things as were listed above?

  11. What wholly inspired oral source has spoken to man the public word of God outside Scripture since the last book was penned?

  12. Where in Scripture is a magisterium of men promised ensured perpetual infallibility of office whenever it defines as a body a matter of faith or morals for the whole church?

  13. Does being the historical instruments, discerners and stewards of express Divine revelation mean that such possess that magisterial infallibility?

  14. What is the basis for your assurance that your church is the one true apostolic church? The weight of evidence for it or because the church who declared she it cannot err in such a matter?
 
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So, the Catechism of the Catholic Church says that they are "the" church"... sounds legit......

What about these? Who make up "the body of Christ"? Who make up "the church" in these passages?

There is ONE church. It is all those who are the children of God.. All those who have accepted Christ as savior..

Do you think that only RC's are saved?

1 Corinthians 12:12


For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ.



Ephesians 5:23


For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body.


1 Corinthians 12:13


For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

Ephesians 5:29-30

for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church, because we are members of His body.


There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church !

This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church: “Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience – those too may achieve eternal salvation” (quoting, Lumen Gentium, 16).

“Although in ways known to himself God can lead those, who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men” (quoting Ad Gentes, 7, another document from Vatican II).

1. There is no salvation apart from Christ and his One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. Again, this is an infallible teaching and not up for debate among Catholics.

2. Those who are “invincibly” ignorant concerning the truth of #1 above will not be culpable for this lack of knowledge before God.

3. Those in the category of #2 have the real possibility of salvation even if they never come to an explicit knowledge of Christ and/or his Church.
 
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JacksBratt

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There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church !
According to who?

My bible says that Christ died for the entire world.

1 John 2:2 King James Version (KJV)

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

It also states that "whosoever" believes has everlasting life:


John 3:16 King James Version (KJV)

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

I don't see anything anywhere that states that the RCC has dibs.



 
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JacksBratt

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There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church !

This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church: “Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience – those too may achieve eternal salvation” (quoting, Lumen Gentium, 16).

“Although in ways known to himself God can lead those, who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men” (quoting Ad Gentes, 7, another document from Vatican II).

1. There is no salvation apart from Christ and his One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. Again, this is an infallible teaching and not up for debate among Catholics.

2. Those who are “invincibly” ignorant concerning the truth of #1 above will not be culpable for this lack of knowledge before God.

3. Those in the category of #2 have the real possibility of salvation even if they never come to an explicit knowledge of Christ and/or his Church.
Who is "Lumen Gentium"? Who is "Ad Gentes"?

My friend down the road says that you can be saved if you just look at a church steeple and say some poem that he wrote...

What makes him wrong and these other men right?
 
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According to who?

My bible says that Christ died for the entire world.

1 John 2:2 King James Version (KJV)

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

It also states that "whosoever" believes has everlasting life:


John 3:16 King James Version (KJV)

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

I don't see anything anywhere that states that the RCC has dibs.



Yes, Jesus died for the entire world !
He wants everybody to convert and be part of the Church He founded on Peter.
 
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JacksBratt

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Yes, Jesus died for the entire world !
He wants everybody to convert and be part of the Church He founded on Peter.
Can you show me where Christ states that he wants everyone to convert (how are they going to convert when there isn't even a Christian religion at the time of Jesus) to the church that you say He founded on Peter?


To say that all these other Christian denominations are not saved... is very arrogant.
 
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Can you show me where Christ states that he wants everyone to convert (how are they going to convert when there isn't even a Christian religion at the time of Jesus) to the church that you say He founded on Peter?


To say that all these other Christian denominations are not saved... is very arrogant.

It's a fact that Jesus built his Church on Peter. Mat 13:9 : "Who hath ears to hear, let him hear."

A few Bible verses which indicate that Jesus wants everyone to convert to his Church (but that your denomination may interpret differently):

-Mat 16:18
-Matthew 18:15
-1 Timothy 3: 14-15
-John 3:4
-John 3:5

I didn't say that every non catholic will go to hell, I just showed you what the Church teaches.. it seems that you didn't read it.
 
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Athanasius377

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It's a fact that Jesus built his Church on Peter. Mat 13:9 : "Who hath ears to hear, let him hear."

A few Bible verses which indicate that Jesus wants everyone to convert to his Church (but that your denomination may interpret differently):

-Mat 16:18
-Matthew 18:15
-1 Timothy 3: 14-15
-John 3:4
-John 3:5

I didn't say that every non catholic will go to hell, I just showed you what the Church teaches.. it seems that you didn't read it.
Hello there. Welcome to CF. A quick suggestion if you want to get the most from the folks here. I would narrow your focus say on Petrine Primacy or some other topic so you are not having to engage with a wall of text about a dozen subjects. That way we can respond with our best answers to your best questions. I am not expecting to convince you on CF but at least as an apologist you will have experience engaging in the best of what the other side has to say.

just a thought.
 
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