Is salvation by grace alone? Or faith alone? Or grace through faith? or by faith plus repentance?

Bible Highlighter · Oct 11, 2019

gradyll said:
sir let me highlight the verses that speak about salvation, most of these by and large are not even mentioning salvation. I made this same mistake in the past before, usually it happens when we take lists from outside sources and have not actually studied them, but I am not saying you did this. THat was what I did when I made this same mistake. Anyway, I will adress only the ones talking about salvation ok? To make this faster.

Here are the verses you posted in your comment, I will repost them and highlight them, if they are not highlighted they don't specifically mention salvation at all and are tossed out:

Well, I will attempt to give my commentary to each of these verses below so as to explain why Sanctification (God doing the good work through you) plays a part in the salvation process (Which takes place after we are saved by God's grace). However, seeing my time is limited, I know that I will only get to explain a few of them in this post.

You said:
“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

I hear Christians today say they are saved by faith only or by faith alone, and yet this verse says the exact opposite. It says that we are justified by works and not by faith only, or by faith alone. The word "justified" is used for both faith and works here. You and most other Belief Alone Proponents or Eternal Security Proponents obviously believe that they are justified by faith as a part of salvation, but somehow they must change the meaning of the word "justified" to be something different in this case. Anyways, it is odd that you did not highlight this verse as being green because it is saying the same thing as James 2:17 (of which you did highlight as green).

You said:
"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18).

You highlighted this verse as being green, so as to show that is dealing with salvific repentance and that it is not dealing with works in regards to salvation. This is very strange because James 2:17 specifically uses the word "works" here and it is not using the word "repentance." Anyways, James is saying here that a faith without works is dead. Meaning, you cannot have a faith (that lives itself out) without works that saves because logically we know that a dead faith cannot save anyone. James 2:18 backs this up even more and it says that James will show you his faith by his works to the person who says they have faith without works. In other words, James is criticizing the person who says they have a faith without works. Going even farther, James says in James 2:19 that having a faith alone without works is like that of demons. If faith alone (that is lived out for a believer's life) was to be commended for salvation, then James would not speak against a faith that is alone.

You said:
"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

You believe that this is dealing with salvific repentance and not works involving salvation.
Again, the word "repentance" does not appear here, but the word "works" is used instead. According to this verse, if faith alone saves, Paul would never say that you could deny God by a lack of works (i.e. every good work reprobate) and by a lack of works be abominable, disobedient, etc.; Granted, many Eternal Security proponents or Belief Alone Proponents believe that you can be out of fellowship with GOD or the LORD and still be saved, but 1 John 5:12 says he that has the Son has life, and he that does not have the Son does not have life. Besides, it is just more than a lack of fellowship being described in this verse, it is saying that one is actually DENYING God by being reprobate in every good work (i.e. a lack of works). Surely a God denier is not saved.

You said:
"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, "(1 Timothy 6:3-4).

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).

These two pieces of Scripture actually work in harmony together. Paul says in Timothy that if any man teaches against or does not agree with the words of Jesus (like the words of Jesus on sin and spiritual death - See: Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 12:37, Matthew 25:31-46, or how obedience to his commands is a part of eternal life: Matthew 19:17-19, and Luke 10:25-28) they are proud and they know nothing. If any man teaches against or does not agree with the doctrine of godliness (Which is true holy living in the fact that a person truly upholds a standard of morality), they are proud and they know nothing. James 4:6 brings in the condemnation part. Seeing Paul says these kinds of individuals are proud, James says in James 4:6 that GOD resists the proud and he gives grace to the humble. So proud people who are against the words of Jesus, and the doctrine of godliness are the kinds of people that GOD resists and He will give it to those who are humble (i.e. those who uphold the words of Jesus, and the words of godliness or true holy living as described in the Bible.). A life of godliness implies doing good works, and teaching against this or not being in agreement with a true life of godliness clearly relates to salvation here when we put both pieces of Scripture together (like putting two pieces of jigsaw puzzle together).

You said:
"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:1-2).

I will admit that this passage is probably the weakest one in my list, but it does loosely imply that we cannot have the kind of grace that Belief Alone Proponents or Eternal Security Proponents teach. Many of them will tell me that the carnal Christian is saved, and or if you happen to stumble into one sin on rare occasion, you are still saved. The Eternal Security Proponent and or the Belief Alone Proponent will also say that they will never be able to overcome grievous sin altogether in this life (Note: I am not talking about Sinless Perfectionism here). I am talking about overcoming grievous sins that the Bible clearly condemns like the breaking of the Moral Law (like: Do not kill, do not steal, do not covet - Galatians 5:19-21), and not preaching the gospel (Luke 9:62), and not helping the poor in this life (See: Matthew 25:41-46). So the Eternal Security Proponent or the Belief Alone Proponent is in violation of Romans 6:1-2 because many of them have told me they will sin again as a matter of fact and they are still saved by God's grace. But Paul asks the question, shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Paul did not say "yes." Paul said "God forbid." Meaning this is not something a Christian can do (Which speaks against Belief Alone-ism or Eternal Security).

You said:
"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).

Hebrews 5:9 says that Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to ALL those people who OBEY Him. Obey implies works. In fact, Jesus told us to do good works. Jesus told us to be faithful over what we were given vs. being an unprofitable servant (Matthew 25:14-30). Jesus told us to help the poor (Luke 10:29-37, Matthew 25:31-46), preach the gospel (Matthew 28:16-20), and to feed the sheep (John 21:17). In fact, Jesus said, "Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven." (Matthew 5:16). Are we not obeying Jesus by obeying his command that says to let our light shine before men so that they may see our good works and glorify our Father in Heaven?" Yes, I am aware that the light that we shine is Jesus Christ Himself. The good works we do are not our own, but they are the works of the Lord done through us (Note: This also includes the good works of the Father, and the Spirit, too). Anyways, Hebrews 5:9 says that Jesus is the author of salvation to THEM who OBEY Him. It does not say to those who disobey Him or who simply believe on Him alone for salvation. Obey implies doing things for the Lord and this relates to Him being our author of eternal salvation. 1 John 1:7 says a similar thing.

You said:
"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).

To make peace with all men is not some kind of passive thing. You sometimes have to actively work at it. To actively work at making peace is a work or good deed. Yet, the author of Hebrews here says that to follow after peace with all men relates to seeing the Lord. For it says without following after peace with all men, no man will see the Lord. The same is true with holiness (or holy living). If we are not following after holiness or holy living, we will not see the Lord. Holy living naturally includes doing good works or deeds for the Lord. We will not see the Lord if we are not following after holiness, which implies that this relates to our salvation. For you cannot live a holy life without good works or good deeds; And a person cannot be saved and not see the Lord.

You highlighted this verse as being green, which means you believe that this is dealing with salvific repentance and not works for salvation. You believe the Bible defines what a work is. But God communicates to us in our language. If words do not mean what they plainly say, then there should be a verse or passage that redefines what a specific word or phrase means beyond it's plain meaning (Metonymy). You have to show in the Bible that the word "works" does not always mean "works" or that actions of some kind done in the Bible does not equate with works. Please provide a Biblical example, otherwise you are just reinterpreting the Bible to suit your own personal belief or the belief of others (that is more comforting to you).

You said:
“...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

God has chosen us for salvation through two things.

#1. Belief of the truth (Jesus is the Truth - John 14:6, so this is God's grace).
#2. Sanctification of the Spirit (The Sanctification Process or holy living by God working through the believer).

No doubt you probably read 2 Thessalonians 2:13 with the thinking that the "Sanctification of the Spirit" is the born again or regenerative process that is a one time event that takes place when a person accepts Christ as their Savior. But the context gives strong credence that this is the working of the Holy Spirit to cleanse us of sin from out of our lives. Verse 12 (the verse before it) says,

"That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness." (2 Thessalonians 2:12).

Take note that it says that there are those who believe not the truth (Which is contrasted to "Belief of the truth" in 2 Thessalonians 2:13). It also says that these men who believe not the truth also had pleasure in unrighteousness. This is contrasted with "Sanctification of the Spirit." For verse 17 follows up in saying: "Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work." (2 Thessalonians 2:17). So "every good work and work" is in relation to the "Sanctification of the Spirit." Nowhere does regeneration appear in the immediate context here. So this is saying that the "Sanctification of the Spirit" (the good works that GOD does through the believer) relates to salvation.

You said:
“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

“There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:1).

Both of these verses relate with the Sanctification of the Spirit as mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2:13. But Romans 8:13 gives us a choice in which way we want to go. We have a choice in either living after the flesh (sin) which leads to spiritual death, or we have a choice in putting to death (mortifying) the deeds of the body (sin) by the power of the Spirit, and thereby living (i.e. living spiritually for eternity). Putting away sin in your view is salvific repentance and not works for salvation. The problem is that any action taken to put away something could be regarded as a work. But I can see that this could simply be more passive in simply saying "no" to sin and not working. But Romans 8:1 says that there is no "Condemnation to those in Christ Jesus who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." The fruits of the Spirit are love, joy, peace, etc. (See Galatians 5:22-23). These are actions that we must partake of. Actions are works or good deeds. Fruits are deeds according to the Bible (Compare Matthew 3:8 with Acts of the Apostles 26:20). Deeds are clearly works. So if there is only "No Condemnation" for those who walk in the Spirit are do the good deeds (fruit, or work) of the Spirit. Also, staying out of sin for a new convert's life would include the good works of preaching the gospel, helping the poor, and loving the brethren and or feeding them (i.e. teaching them the Scriptures, and or caring for them physically). If a believer refuses to do these kinds of works within their lives, they are abiding in grievous sin that will condemn them.

Anyways, I gotta run. I may be back later to continue this conversation.

May the Lord's goodness be upon you today.

Sincerely,

~ J.

createdtoworship · Oct 11, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
Well, I will attempt to give my commentary to each of these verses below so as to explain why Sanctification (God doing the good work through you) plays a part in the salvation process (Which takes place after we are saved by God's grace). However, seeing my time is limited, I know that I will only get to explain a few of them in this post.

I hear Christians today say they are saved by faith only or by faith alone, and yet this verse says the exact opposite. It says that we are justified by works and not by faith only, or by faith alone. The word "justified" is used for both faith and works here. You and most other Belief Alone Proponents or Eternal Security Proponents obviously believe that they are justified by faith as a part of salvation, but somehow they must change the meaning of the word "justified" to be something different in this case. Anyways, it is odd that you did not highlight this verse as being green because it is saying the same thing as James 2:17 (of which you did highlight as green).

You highlighted this verse as being green, so as to show that is dealing with salvific repentance and that it is not dealing with works in regards to salvation. This is very strange because James 2:17 specifically uses the word "works" here and it is not using the word "repentance." Anyways, James is saying here that a faith without works is dead. Meaning, you cannot have a faith (that lives itself out) without works that saves because logically we know that a dead faith cannot save anyone. James 2:18 backs this up even more and it says that James will show you his faith by his works to the person who says they have faith without works. In other words, James is criticizing the person who says they have a faith without works. Going even farther, James says in James 2:19 that having a faith alone without works is like that of demons. If faith alone (that is lived out for a believer's life) was to be commended for salvation, then James would not speak against a faith that is alone.

You believe that this is dealing with salvific repentance and not works involving salvation.
Again, the word "repentance" does not appear here, but the word "works" is used instead. According to this verse, if faith alone saves, Paul would never say that you could deny God by a lack of works (i.e. every good work reprobate) and by a lack of works be abominable, disobedient, etc.; Granted, many Eternal Security proponents or Belief Alone Proponents believe that you can be out of fellowship with GOD or the LORD and still be saved, but 1 John 5:12 says he that has the Son has life, and he that does not have the Son does not have life. Besides, it is just more than a lack of fellowship being described in this verse, it is saying that one is actually DENYING God by being reprobate in every good work (i.e. a lack of works). Surely a God denier is not saved.

These two pieces of Scripture actually work in harmony together. Paul says in Timothy that if any man teaches against or does not agree with the words of Jesus (like the words of Jesus on sin and spiritual death - See: Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 12:37, Matthew 25:31-46, or how obedience to his commands is a part of eternal life: Matthew 19:17-19, and Luke 10:25-28) they are proud and they know nothing. If any man teaches against or does not agree with the doctrine of godliness (Which is true holy living in the fact that a person truly upholds a standard of morality), they are proud and they know nothing. James 4:6 brings in the condemnation part. Seeing Paul says these kinds of individuals are proud, James says in James 4:6 that GOD resists the proud and he gives grace to the humble. So proud people who are against the words of Jesus, and the doctrine of godliness are the kinds of people that GOD resists and He will give it to those who are humble (i.e. those who uphold the words of Jesus, and the words of godliness or true holy living as described in the Bible.). A life of godliness implies doing good works, and teaching against this or not being in agreement with a true life of godliness clearly relates to salvation here when we put both pieces of Scripture together (like putting two pieces of jigsaw puzzle together).

I will admit that this passage is probably the weakest one in my list, but it does loosely imply that we cannot have the kind of grace that Belief Alone Proponents or Eternal Security Proponents teach. Many of them will tell me that the carnal Christian is saved, and or if you happen to stumble into one sin on rare occasion, you are still saved. The Eternal Security Proponent and or the Belief Alone Proponent will also say that they will never be able to overcome grievous sin altogether in this life (Note: I am not talking about Sinless Perfectionism here). I am talking about overcoming grievous sins that the Bible clearly condemns like the breaking of the Moral Law (like: Do not kill, do not steal, do not covet - Galatians 5:19-21), and not preaching the gospel (Luke 9:62), and not helping the poor in this life (See: Matthew 25:41-46). So the Eternal Security Proponent or the Belief Alone Proponent is in violation of Romans 6:1-2 because many of them have told me they will sin again as a matter of fact and they are still saved by God's grace. But Paul asks the question, shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Paul did not say "yes." Paul said "God forbid." Meaning this is not something a Christian can do (Which speaks against Belief Alone-ism or Eternal Security).

Hebrews 5:9 says that Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to ALL those people who OBEY Him. Obey implies works. In fact, Jesus told us to do good works. Jesus told us to be faithful over what we were given vs. being an unprofitable servant (Matthew 25:14-30). Jesus told us to help the poor (Luke 10:29-37, Matthew 25:31-46), preach the gospel (Matthew 28:16-20), and to feed the sheep (John 21:17). In fact, Jesus said, "Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven." (Matthew 5:16). Are we not obeying Jesus by obeying his command that says to let our light shine before men so that they may see our good works and glorify our Father in Heaven?" Yes, I am aware that the light that we shine is Jesus Christ Himself. The good works we do are not our own, but they are the works of the Lord done through us (Note: This also includes the good works of the Father, and the Spirit, too). Anyways, Hebrews 5:9 says that Jesus is the author of salvation to THEM who OBEY Him. It does not say to those who disobey Him or who simply believe on Him alone for salvation. Obey implies doing things for the Lord and this relates to Him being our author of eternal salvation. 1 John 1:7 says a similar thing.

To make peace with all men is not some kind of passive thing. You sometimes have to actively work at it. To actively work at making peace is a work or good deed. Yet, the author of Hebrews here says that to follow after peace with all men relates to seeing the Lord. For it says without following after peace with all men, no man will see the Lord. The same is true with holiness (or holy living). If we are not following after holiness or holy living, we will not see the Lord. Holy living naturally includes doing good works or deeds for the Lord. We will not see the Lord if we are not following after holiness, which implies that this relates to our salvation. For you cannot live a holy life without good works or good deeds; And a person cannot be saved and not see the Lord.

You highlighted this verse as being green, which means you believe that this is dealing with salvific repentance and not works for salvation. You believe the Bible defines what a work is. But God communicates to us in our language. If words do not mean what they plainly say, then there should be a verse or passage that redefines what a specific word or phrase means beyond it's plain meaning (Metonymy). You have to show in the Bible that the word "works" does not always mean "works" or that actions of some kind done in the Bible does not equate with works. Please provide a Biblical example, otherwise you are just reinterpreting the Bible to suit your own personal belief or the belief of others (that is more comforting to you).

God has chosen us for salvation through two things.

#1. Belief of the truth (Jesus is the Truth - John 14:6, so this is God's grace).
#2. Sanctification of the Spirit (The Sanctification Process or holy living by God working through the believer).

No doubt you probably read 2 Thessalonians 2:13 with the thinking that the "Sanctification of the Spirit" is the born again or regenerative process that is a one time event that takes place when a person accepts Christ as their Savior. But the context gives strong credence that this is the working of the Holy Spirit to cleanse us of sin from out of our lives. Verse 12 (the verse before it) says,

"That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness." (2 Thessalonians 2:12).

Take note that it says that there are those who believe not the truth (Which is contrasted to "Belief of the truth" in 2 Thessalonians 2:13). It also says that these men who believe not the truth also had pleasure in unrighteousness. This is contrasted with "Sanctification of the Spirit." For verse 17 follows up in saying: "Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work." (2 Thessalonians 2:17). So "every good work and work" is in relation to the "Sanctification of the Spirit." Nowhere does regeneration appear in the immediate context here. So this is saying that the "Sanctification of the Spirit" (the good works that GOD does through the believer) relates to salvation.

Both of these verses relate with the Sanctification of the Spirit as mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2:13. But Romans 8:13 gives us a choice in which way we want to go. We have a choice in either living after the flesh (sin) which leads to spiritual death, or we have a choice in putting to death (mortifying) the deeds of the body (sin) by the power of the Spirit, and thereby living (i.e. living spiritually for eternity). Putting away sin in your view is salvific repentance and not works for salvation. The problem is that any action taken to put away something could be regarded as a work. But I can see that this could simply be more passive in simply saying "no" to sin and not working. But Romans 8:1 says that there is no "Condemnation to those in Christ Jesus who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." The fruits of the Spirit are love, joy, peace, etc. (See Galatians 5:22-23). These are actions that we must partake of. Actions are works or good deeds. Fruits are deeds according to the Bible (Compare Matthew 3:8 with Acts of the Apostles 26:20). Deeds are clearly works. So if there is only "No Condemnation" for those who walk in the Spirit are do the good deeds (fruit, or work) of the Spirit. Also, staying out of sin for a new convert's life would include the good works of preaching the gospel, helping the poor, and loving the brethren and or feeding them (i.e. teaching them the Scriptures, and or caring for them physically). If a believer refuses to do these kinds of works within their lives, they are abiding in grievous sin that will condemn them.

Anyways, I gotta run. I may be back later to continue this conversation.

May the Lord's goodness be upon you today.

Sincerely,

~ J.

well sir, again I don't have all the answers. I know you won't agree, and you seem to be okay with your view of salvation. All I am saying is pray about it, read the entire Bible, not just james etc. Read romans, ephesians. Read it straight in one sitting. That is all I can recommend. Yes James is talking about works, yes the other verse uses works. But those works are incorporated in salvific repentance. Soteriologically speaking there is no law or work that can save, if there was, God would not have sent His son to die. Does that make sense? Why kill your only son, if people could do works for salvation? Doesn't make sense. And I am nearly positive most people are not believing what is said here, although some (who are unapproved by God), will fall prey to the salvation you are teaching. I believe God elects us to heaven, and He knows by foreknowledge who will repent and believe, from the beginning of the universe, and those who He knows will not repent, He will allow to be prey to seducing doctrines of devils. I am not saying that what you speak is devilish. But in a way it is. You preach works salvation, which has been disproven since the protestant reformation, even before that, in the works of the church fathers. Once you believe works saves, what makes you any different than a mormon, or a jehovah's witness, or a roman catholic (who believes in the seven sacraments)? I have studied cults for years. It was a trying part of my life, to have that much error going through your brain, I don't recommend that for anyone. Then I debated athiests and evolutionists for another ten years, again I don't recommend that for anyone. If I could do it all over, I would simply read the Bible over and over, cover to cover. God's scripture corrects all error. In these posts in ephesians 2:8, and romans 4:5 I have proven that works salvation is not biblical. And I have provided alternate (possible) explainations to all the verses you posted that say we are saved by works. Again all I can say is read the Bible. REad it backwards and forwards. You mentioned a website in another thread, and I would recommend disconnecting from the internet in your search for truth. Just use the scripture itself. When I went to Bible college, it's one of the only denominations in the world that teach through the Bible. I was lucky. God has His hand in my life, and guided me to the right church. I could very very easily got caught up in church of christ, (like what you believe) or united pentecostals, that believe tongues is required for salvation, or even jehovah's witness or mormon. All their theology makes logical sense. It makes sense to get paid for doing work. Thats why free gifts don't make sense. And that is what makes christianity different than all the religions of the world. Even your religion. In your works salvation, you simply jump on the bandwagon with thousands of other works based religions. And it takes it's toll on your spirit. You have pride now. You feel that heaven is not a gift, but a wage. And it is that same pride that made satan fall. So I ask you to repent today. Repent of your striving, and give up the fight against God. Accept His free gift. That does not mean God will never require change of your life. There are too many verses that prove otherwise. But God will not ask you to do something you can't do. You obviously have not performed the verses you state about being Holy. I know for a fact you haven't. I have asked you twice to prove that you have, and you change the topic out of fear. So again, if you can prove that you are saved, then by all means, maybe it will convince us that you know salvation. But if you can't prove you are saved, then why should we believe your way of salvation?

createdtoworship · Oct 11, 2019

So that was my last post I am willing to give regarding the works mentality, it refutes itself logically speaking right off the bat so I don't feel the need to try to refute it any longer, Now for anyone reading this thread...if you are really confused by Bible Highligher's posts,copy the post in question and message me the post, I have really good software that looks up greek, commentaries etc. We can do a bible study together in the messages. I can post my viewpoint as well as at least half a dozen other popular viewpoints on any given passage in the Bible, so you don't take my word for it. Don't believe the spirit of works mentality. Salvation is free because God knows that we will never be good enough to pull ourselves up by our own bootstraps. It has many logical errors, and Bible Highlighter cannot even prove that He is saved to begin with. Which is concerning. I mean if we are saved by works, and there is always more work to do, how will be ever be saved? It self refutes itself. And I have mentioned this to the poster, but no reply. So again, don't take me stepping out of this talk as a victory, read the posts, all those interpretations have been self refuted a few times now. But I can walk through it with you in the messages if you need. Take care, I love you guys. Keep the faith, fight the good fight.

Bible Highlighter · Oct 11, 2019

gradyll said:
So that was my last post I am willing to give regarding the works mentality, it refutes itself logically speaking right off the bat so I don't feel the need to try to refute it any longer, Now for anyone reading this thread...if you are really confused by Bible Highligher's posts,copy the post in question and message me the post, I have really good software that looks up greek, commentaries etc. We can do a bible study together in the messages. I can post my viewpoint as well as at least half a dozen other popular viewpoints on any given passage in the Bible, so you don't take my word for it. Don't believe the spirit of works mentality. Salvation is free because God knows that we will never be good enough to pull ourselves up by our own bootstraps. It has many logical errors, and Bible Highlighter cannot even prove that He is saved to begin with. Which is concerning. I mean if we are saved by works, and there is always more work to do, how will be ever be saved? It self refutes itself. And I have mentioned this to the poster, but no reply. So again, don't take me stepping out of this talk as a victory, read the posts, all those interpretations have been self refuted a few times now. But I can walk through it with you in the messages if you need. Take care, I love you guys. Keep the faith, fight the good fight.

The Greek should not say anything different than the English. I have explained the verses very clearly in the English and you were not able to give a counter explanation. It is as simple as that, friend. If somebody is looking to defend Belief Alone-ism, it is because they have a predisposition to do that and not because the text of the Bible says that.

If folks want an answer in secret that will go unchallenged by others, then by all means, they can do that. But truth should not be hidden, but it should be open for all to see.

I believe those who are interested in the truth of what Scriptures really say on Soteriology (When it is not popular) will see the truth and test it by comparing Scripture with Scripture and by using real world examples. These truths should be for all, and not for a select few. So I will continue to answer your posts, and I pray that those who come across this forum will see the truth and will be convinced by it. For God's truth will have its victory. His Word will not return void.

Bible Highlighter · Oct 11, 2019

gradyll said:
“This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. (Galatians 5:16).

While Galatians 5:16 does not imply that works play a part in the salvation process, it is connected with Romans 8:1, and Romans 8:13. What Galatians 5:16 shows is a similar pattern of truth that states that walking in the Spirit helps one to overcome grievous sin that leads to spiritual death. For Romans 8:13 says that you (the believer) can mortify (or put to death) the deeds of the body (sin). Galatians 5:16 says a similar thing in that by walking after the Spirit, the believer will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh (sin). This is contradictory to the statements made by many Belief Alone Proponents. Many of them will say that you cannot overcome grievous sin (like lusting, lying, hating, coveting, etc.) in this life (Note: Again, this is not Sinless Perfectionism, but this is putting away grievous sin that the Bible does condemn).

“That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit (Romans 8:4).

Again, while Romans 8:4 does not deal with how works play a part in the salvation process, it is connected to Romans 8:1, and Romans 8:13. What Romans 8:4 shows is that it by walking after the Spirit leads to fulfilling the righteousness of the Law. Romans 8:4 says that walking after the flesh is not a part of fulfilling the righteousness of the Law. Yet, many Eternal Security Proponents or Belief Alone Proponents tell me that even if they sin, they are still fulfilling the righteousness of the Law because they have a belief alone on Jesus and or they believed on the finished work of the cross, etc.; But Romans 8:4 says that walking after the Spirit and not after the flesh is the fulfilling of the righteousness of the Law. I believe that where the Belief Alone Proponent gets tripped up is that they do not realize the difference between all the times that the Bible describes the Justificaiton process vs. the Sanctification process. Sure, some of them may think these two processes exist (and they may identify some of these verses correctly), unfortunately they do not think the Sanctification process deals with salvation (When the Bible says that it does - See 2 Thessalonians 2:13, and 1 Thessalonians 4:3 cf. with Matthew 7:21).

You said:
"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).

"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).

“If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15:10).

It is strange that you highlighted in green 1 Corinthians 16:22 that talks about not loving Jesus and one is accursed as a part of salvific repentance, but you did not do so for the other verses that talk about loving Jesus. Jesus defines how we are to love Him in John 14:15. In John 15:10 says that we abide in Christ's love if we keep His commandments. But Belief Alone Proponents will have me believe that they can just believe alone on Jesus and His grace and they will abide in His love or grace anyways. Again, who am I going to believe? Them, or the Bible?

You said:
And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.” (Luke 10:25-28).

Right, this means we must love God and love our neighbor as a part of eternal life. Jesus did not correct the lawyer by telling him, "Wrong lawyer! Just trust in me and do not worry about your sin!" No. Jesus agreed with the lawyer on the truth that we are to love God and love our neighbor as a part of eternal life. Jesus said, "do this, and you will live."

Has this changed after the cross? No. According to John, whoever hates his brother is like a murderer, and no murderer has eternal life abiding in him (1 John 3:15). According to Paul, if any man does not love the Lord Jesus Christ (Who is GOD), let him be accursed (1 Corinthians 16:22).

You said:
“...if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.” (Matthew 19:17-19).

Jesus says that keeping God's laws is a part of eternal life (like the keeping of the Moral Law). This is shocking that you did not highlight this one as green because you believe that salvific repentance is turning away from such sins. Anyways, Paul also mentions these kinds of sins and he says that they that do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God (Galatians 5:19-21). Most in the Eternal Security camp or Belief Alone group will say that you cannot lose your salvation by sin. But Paul says that they which do such things will not inherit the Kingdom of God. Who am I going to believe? Them, or the Bible?

You said:
"And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38).

”If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? (Matthew 16:24-26).

You marked these passages as salvific repentance which does not mean works save a person. But the problem here is that denying yourself takes effort or work to do. Also, taking up your cross means to suffer or be persecuted for Christ. For all who live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution (2 Timothy 3:12). We know that the Parable of the Sower says this: " Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended." (Matthew 13:21). This is the seed that fell upon stony places and they had no root and they were scorched by the sun and they withered away (Matthew 13:5-6). To endure hardship for Christ or to take up your cross or to be persecuted for Him is a good work or deed for our Lord. It is not a passive kind of thing.

You said:
"...No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:62).

This is talking about answering the call to preach the gospel and or His Word, and to turn back from doing that means one is not fit to enter God's Kingdom. For if we do not care to spread God's Word, that means we are spreading the word of the enemy instead. The Word lives inside a person and they cannot help but to share it with others out of love if they are abiding in Christ and His words. Anyways, this is saying we must preach the gospel and His Word as a part of eternal life or to be fit for His Kingdom.

You said:
“Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.” (Matthew 5:8).

While having a pure heart begins with being born again by accepting Christ, sometimes it takes time to work at making your heart pure (Sanctification) or to keep it pure. Over the years, I have heard other believers essentially say that they are not always pure in the fact that they say that they still sin and or that they cannot help but to do so again at sometime in the future. Anyways, this verse implies that if one is not pure of heart, they will not see GOD (i.e. they will not be saved). To pure of heart, or to keep one's heart in remaining pure, surely one needs to enter the Sanctification process in living holy. For without holiness no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14).

Bible Highlighter · Oct 12, 2019

gradyll said:
"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).

I am shocked again that you did not identify this verse as being for salvific repentance. Clearly this is turning away from sin because James tell us to lay part (lay aside) all filthiness and naughtiness (Which is clearly sin) and we are to receive the communicated Word of God (Scripture) which is able to save our souls. Clearly putting away sin out of our lives is something we must do. It is an action we must take as a part of salvation or saving our souls. Lay apart filthiness and naughtiness and receive the Word which is able to save our souls. It is not just the receiving of the Word. We also have to lay aside filthiness and naughtiness, too.

You said:
"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).

“And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:29).

Both of these passages say that doing good as a part of being in God's kingdom and that doing evil or bad things leads to wrath and damnation. Yet, many (not all) Belief Alone Proponents or Eternal Security Proponents will have me believe that doing good has nothing to do with being saved in God's Kingdom. You label this as verses as salvific repentance (turning away from sin), but these verses talk about doing good as a part of God's Kingdom and that doing bad leads to punishment.

You said:
”And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” (Revelation 22:12-15).

Keeping Christ's commandments includes preaching the gospel, and helping the poor which are works. This passage says that "they that do his commandments, they have the right to the tree of life, and they gain entrance through the gates into the city (New Jerusalem). But outside the city are sinners. There are many times I hear Christians say they are sinners saved by God's grace.

You said:
"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).

You indicate that this verse is dealing with salvific repentance and not works that save. You believe turning away from sin is not a work. But you said before that the carnal Christian is saved. I take it the carnal Christian is doing evil. But John 3:20 says everyone who does evil hates the light. So there is no such thing as a carnal Christian who is saved. Now it is true. This verse is not explicitly teaching that works play a part in salvation, but it does let us know that doing evil means one hates the light (Jesus). This means one cannot sin and still be saved by having a belief alone on Jesus.

You said:
“For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

This passage is clearly saying that we have to continue in God's goodness otherwise we can be cut off just like the Jews. The topic of conversation is the Jews (as a nation) and Paul's desire to see them saved. Continue in his goodness means doing good works.

You said:
“Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” (Philippians 2:12).

This really cannot be referring to the time when we accept Christ as our Savior and His grace because Paul is talking to believers who already accepted the Lord. Besides, Philippians 2:13 talks about how it is God who works in you. So this dealing with the Sanctification Process by the working of God within the believer. Also, in Belief Alone-ism, the word "fear" has to be changed. There is no fear in Belief Alone-ism because your salvation is guaranteed by having a belief alone on Jesus. No need to work out your salvation with fear and trembling if you believe in Jesus alone as the basis for your salvation.

sdowney717 · Oct 12, 2019

Salvation by grace alone points of course to God's electing of us causing us to be begotten again,
who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation
First comes the power of God toward us, our faith is a result in our lives of God's power and love towards us that causes us to believe in Him and have faith, otherwise you would have no faith and no salvation, because if you had not first been begotten again, then you could have never believed in him because of the enmity of the natural mind towards Christ..

1 Peter 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Romans 8:6-9 New King James Version (NKJV)
6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

God’s Election and Reprobation in 2 Thessalonians 2:9–14 | Alpha and Omega Ministries

Bible Highlighter · Oct 12, 2019

sdowney717 said:
Salvation by grace alone points of course to God's electing of us causing us to be begotten again,
who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation
First comes the power of God toward us, our faith is a result in our lives of God's power and love towards us that causes us to believe in Him and have faith, otherwise you would have no faith and no salvation, because if you had not first been begotten again, then you could have never believed in him because of the enmity of the natural mind towards Christ..

1 Peter 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Romans 8:6-9 New King James Version (NKJV)
6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

God’s Election and Reprobation in 2 Thessalonians 2:9–14 | Alpha and Omega Ministries

While God can keep us by His power, this is Synergistic whereby we have to cooperate with GOD and it is not GOD forcing His will upon us. The Bible says,

“...We are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end.” (Hebrews 3:13-14).

"...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." (Revelation 2:10).

"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." (Jude 1:21).

We are told to:

Continue in the grace of God (Acts of the Apostles 13:43).
Continue in the faith (Acts of the Apostles 14:22) (Colossians 1:23).
Continue in his goodness, otherwise we can be cut off (just like the Jews were cut off) (Romans 11:21-22).

Why are we told to do these things if they are all just automatic to the saved or regenerated?

Bible Highlighter · Oct 12, 2019

sdowney717 said:
Salvation by grace alone points of course to God's electing of us causing us to be begotten again,
who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation
First comes the power of God toward us, our faith is a result in our lives of God's power and love towards us that causes us to believe in Him and have faith, otherwise you would have no faith and no salvation, because if you had not first been begotten again, then you could have never believed in him because of the enmity of the natural mind towards Christ..

1 Peter 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Romans 8:6-9 New King James Version (NKJV)
6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

God’s Election and Reprobation in 2 Thessalonians 2:9–14 | Alpha and Omega Ministries

Also, when you read 1 Peter 1:3-5, you also have to read 1 Peter 1:22 that says,

"Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren" (1 Peter 1:22).

In other words, you have to obey the truth through the Spirit which is able to purify your soul, as well.

1 Peter 3 also says,

12 "For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil.
13 And who is he that will harm you, if ye be followers of that which is good?" (1 Peter 3:12-13).

Romans 8:6-9 is talking about the carnal mind or they that are in the flesh as those who are justifying sin in some way. Galatians 5:19-21 lists the "works of the flesh" as certain sins such as adultery, hate, murder, drunkenness, etc.; Also, while the word "carnal" can refer to something physical, it can also refer to something sinful, as well (Like with 1 Corinthians 3:4).

Romans 8:13 says if you live after the flesh (sin), you will die, but if you put to death the deeds of the body (sin) by the Spirit, you will live. Romans 8:1 says a similar thing. It says there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus who walk not after the flesh, but who walk after the Spirit. So one has to walk after the Spirit and not after sin in order to not be under the Condemnation. In fact, the Condemnation is told to us in John 3:19-21. John 3:20 says everyone who does evil hates the light. The light is Jesus Christ. So if somebody is doing evil, in that moment they actually hate the Jesus. But this cannot be. 1 Corinthians 16:22 says that if any man loves not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be accursed.

Bible Highlighter · Oct 12, 2019

gradyll said:
“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;” (Titus 2:11-12).

The grace of God saves. But some teach that the grace of God teaches that we do not have to deny ungodliness or live righteously or godly in this present world. Some will try to borrow from the Sanctification category within the Scriptures and appear to be for holy living but they really are not for doing that. When push comes to shove, they will say the carnal Christian is saved or that a believer can die in one or two grievous sins (like lying or lusting, or hating) and still be saved. While many of them will say that a believer will not live a lifestyle of sin, they will also double speak and say that the believer can in certain instances violate God's commands and be saved. Yes, there is mercy and grace. But we have to seek it. We have to receive it and uphold God's laws. If not, then we can live like devils and just believe in Jesus and we are good to enter God's Kingdom. But it doesn't work like that. Jesus warned that just even looking upon a woman in lust is enough for a person's entire body to be cast into hell fire (See: Matthew 5:28-30). God's grace does not give us a safety net to sin in any way. If a believer sins, they need to confess and forsake such a sin otherwise they are in danger spiritually. For the wages of sin is still death. But if the OSAS version of grace was true, then Titus 2:11-12 would say that the grace of God teaches that we do not have to live righteously but it is beneficial to do so. But that is not what Titus 2:11-12 says. God's grace helped Paul to work more abundantly than all of his brethren (See 1 Corinthians 15:10). James says he will show you his faith (belief) by his works (James 2:18).

Anyways, you labeled Titus 2:11-12 as dealing with salvific repentance (i.e. turning away from sin, and it is not dealing with works that play a part in the salvation process). But Titus 2:11 says that the grace of God teaches us to live righteously in this present world. If this is what Grace teaches us, it is the only option available to us as far as saving Grace. Grace does not teach ungodliness (Which is what many try to teach these days by their saying that they can just believe in Jesus and not worry about sin so much and they are saved, or they do not have to live for the Lord and they are saved by believing in Jesus). Anyways, seeing God's grace teaches that we must live righteously as our only option, this means that works play a part in the salvation process because living righteously involves doing good works.

sdowney717 · Oct 12, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
While God can keep us by His power, this is Synergistic whereby we have to cooperate with GOD and it is not GOD forcing His will upon us. The Bible says,

“...We are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end.” (Hebrews 3:13-14).

"...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." (Revelation 2:10).

"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." (Jude 1:21).

We are told to:

Continue in the grace of God (Acts of the Apostles 13:43).

Continue in the faith (Acts of the Apostles 14:22) (Colossians 1:23).

Continue in his goodness, otherwise we can be cut off (just like the Jews were cut off) (Romans 11:21-22).

Why are we told to do these things if they are all just automatic to the saved or regenerated?

God only tells His people to do those things, and His people are willing to do those things as He has made them begotten again. Now if your not born again, you are not willing to be obedient to Christ as the natural mind is at enmity with God and cannot be submitted to God's law.
People who fall away from the faith were the ones Christ said HE never knew. They however thought they did know Him.

Matthew 7:22-24 1599 Geneva Bible (GNV)
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not by thy Name prophesied, and by thy name cast out devils? and by thy name done many great works?

23 And then will I profess to them, I never knew you, depart from me ye that work iniquity.

Romans 8
5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

1 Peter 1
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,

To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia,
2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood:

Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

If you notice this is the work of God that you believe in Him whom He has sent.
It is the sanctifying work of the Spirit that you become obedient to Jesus Christ, and you then have the atonement of your sins, the blood of sprinkling for the forgiveness of your sins is on you.

ONLY the saints of God will persevere in the faith and be saved. The rest will all fall away. Why do the saints persevere? Because God is their helper and the strength of their heart. And He has written his laws and commandments into their hearts and minds, reread Hebrews 8 about the New Covenant, how it works.

Bible Highlighter · Oct 12, 2019

sdowney717 said:
God only tells His people to do those things, and His people are willing to do those things as He has made them begotten again. Now if your not born again, you are not willing to be obedient to Christ as the natural mind is at enmity with God and cannot be submitted to God's law.
People who fall away from the faith were the ones Christ said HE never knew. They however thought they did know Him.

Matthew 7:22-24 1599 Geneva Bible (GNV)
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not by thy Name prophesied, and by thy name cast out devils? and by thy name done many great works?

23 And then will I profess to them, I never knew you, depart from me ye that work iniquity.

Romans 8
5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

1 Peter 1
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,

To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia,
2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood:

Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

If you notice this is the work of God that you believe in Him whom He has sent.
It is the sanctifying work of the Spirit that you become obedient to Jesus Christ, and you then have the atonement of your sins, the blood of sprinkling for the forgiveness of your sins is on you.

ONLY the saints of God will persevere in the faith and be saved. The rest will all fall away. Why do the saints persevere? Because God is their helper and the strength of their heart. And He has written his laws and commandments into their hearts and minds, reread Hebrews 8 about the New Covenant, how it works.

But how do you explain the verses in post #108 if things are as you say?

Bible Highlighter · Oct 12, 2019

sdowney717 said:
God only tells His people to do those things, and His people are willing to do those things as He has made them begotten again. Now if your not born again, you are not willing to be obedient to Christ as the natural mind is at enmity with God and cannot be submitted to God's law.
People who fall away from the faith were the ones Christ said HE never knew. They however thought they did know Him.

Matthew 7:22-24 1599 Geneva Bible (GNV)
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not by thy Name prophesied, and by thy name cast out devils? and by thy name done many great works?

23 And then will I profess to them, I never knew you, depart from me ye that work iniquity.

Romans 8
5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

1 Peter 1
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,

To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia,
2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood:

Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

If you notice this is the work of God that you believe in Him whom He has sent.
It is the sanctifying work of the Spirit that you become obedient to Jesus Christ, and you then have the atonement of your sins, the blood of sprinkling for the forgiveness of your sins is on you.

ONLY the saints of God will persevere in the faith and be saved. The rest will all fall away. Why do the saints persevere? Because God is their helper and the strength of their heart. And He has written his laws and commandments into their hearts and minds, reread Hebrews 8 about the New Covenant, how it works.

Can a believer lose his or her salvation if they commit grievous sin (like lying, lusting, or hating their brother, etc.)?

createdtoworship · Oct 13, 2019

Salvation issues are the most important doctrine because it is the method in which we are saved. Almost all religions have some aspect of salvation that is true. But even small errors in salvation theology end up being way off course when you follow it ten or twenty years. For instance a boat that is one degree off course, in a thousand mile journey will completely miss the harbor, or possibly even the island the harbor is on. Rat poison is mostly edible food, it only has a small percentage of poison. That high truth to error ratio makes it palatable for rats. That is the sole factor in the success of rat poison. And that is also the sole factor in why christian cults are so attractive. Anyway, I am not adressing Bible highlighter's posts, as I have logically refuted the main premise. There is no evidence that Bible Highlighter is in fact saved, as he believes he is saved by works, which means he has no assurance by definition. So if he is not even saved himself, how can he tell others how to be saved. It reminds me of the pharisees in the bible, they through their legalism shut out people from heaven.

“But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in."

matthew 23:13

Since Jesus came there was only two places in the new testament that revealed God's anger toward man. Both were toward the religious hypocrite. A religious hypocrite tells others how to be saved, but cannot save himself. See salvation is a free gift as romans four and ephesians 2 states, yes we must repent of our sin and turn to the true God. But that is a free gift too. We get to repent, after Christ forgives us and gives us a new slate, we are allowed to repent. In the Bible it speaks of "granting repentance" See God grants us that gift. Before Christ came into our lives we were bound to sin, we were stuck in addictive behaviour. But after Christ came He did away with the law of sin and death. The law is a school master to bring us to Christ. Yes in Christ we fulfill the law of love, but that is Christ in us. Not of ourselves, it's Christ's work in our lives. Anyway, I won't ramble on. Bible Highlighter believes the error that all religions teach, that we can work ourselves to God. But that would be like jumping to the moon, heaven is a perfect place. So any imperfection is by default rejected. All christian cults believe in grace, but when interviewed about it, it's really just works. They say that God give us the chance to save ourselves by works, by forgiving us. But again, "Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?" Galatians 3:3

So again, this debate is going nowhere, and I knew instantly that it would not achieve any success. I have debated christian cults for nearly twenty years. And I have never seen a single person converted to christianity. The reason is this..... works salvation feeds our flesh. It is a work of the flesh according to galatians 3:3. Sanctification is also by faith as I have shown in previous posts. Justified by faith, and sanctified by that same exact faith. That is why it says "are you foolish to believe that that which begun in the spirit can be perfected by the flesh".

Mormons are the most recruited christian cult right now. Jehovah's witnesses are following behind, because they are slightly more legalistic, and in this day and age, that doesn't strive well with people.

They don't celebrate holidays, etc.

But if you simply understand grace, and the new testament, romans, galatians, ephesians. Then the law books of the new testament make sense. One you are saved, you are free to get out of your addictions. Now don't get me wrong, many many Christians think that simply believing in JEsus is enough, it's not. You must repent. See the devils believe in Jesus, the Bible says...so what does it make us if we believe too? So there must be a repentance from sin, and submitting to God. But again this is all a work of the spirit, the spirit of grace. We are granted repentance, we are allowed to step out of bondage. It is never mentioned as a work of salvation. Some verses mention works, but there are many types of works, there are works of the flesh, or sin. There is works of the spirit, which is rightous acts done after salvation. And there are dead works, hebrews six. Or those works that we do in order to save ourselves. So I have repeatedly ad nauseum addressed the same spirit of error in this guys posts, and God has revealed that it would not be a good steward of time to repeatedly answer the same questions over and over. I love that the poster has a good heart. That is good. I love that He loves the scriptures. That is good, and I love that he is polite, that is a bonus. But like I said, we can read the whole Bible but read it in the flesh, and not in the true spirit. Like I said the most dangerous errors are the small errors. The simple error that I can work out my salvation in my flesh, no, no, no. Just because I am saved by grace does not allow me the freedom to go against Christ sacrifice and try to save myself. That is a dangerous heresy, and it is the only theology (legalism), that Christ specifically got angry at. He did not get angry at cross dressers, pedophiles or homosexuals. He did not get angry at prostitutes, or people who traded in child sex trafficking. He could have mentioned any of that stuff, I am sure in pagan rome all of that existed. He didn't get mad at temple prostitution. He got mad at legalism. He got mad at those people who knew enough of the Bible to get themselves a following, and draw away disciples after them. I am available to answer any messages, and I will post this in the bottom of the op, first post. I feel that people flock to the grace gospel most, and then secondly they flock to legalism, the true gospel frees you from condemnation and allows a launching pad for true heartfelt love for God and a true experience with holiness. God bless you guys, Bible highlighter will probably be lurking around the forum. His gospel message is not allowed on this forum. No where are we allowed to say we are saved by works. It is a cultic message. So if you wish me to address his posts, just copy and paste them to me. I will spend more time answering your guys messages than I did in this thread. I have given up debate for the most part, because God revealed to me it was part of my fleshly desire to fight with people. I don't wish to fight with people. I wish to set the free from sin. Legalism is not the appropriate way to do that. So copy any post, or scripture that you are confused over, say if you are confused with james how is says "faith without works is dead." I have written entire articles on that specific verse. So we can talk about that, and explain that in light of all the other verses. I have not posted refutations to most verses, simply because I have not been commanded to fight with people. And debate takes considerable time, and if someone is already convinced of their viewpoint, which most are, I will not spend hours doing bible study to answer them. But if you have a question about a verse that seems to say we are saved by works, let me know in a message, and conversly if you feel we are saved by faith through grace and repentance has no place in the gospel, that is the ancient heresy of antinomianism. Or "anti law." That too is in error. Message me the verses you are struggling with, and I will discuss in messaging form.

with your permission I will post those studies here as well.

I don't think there are alot of readers of this thread right now, because they left after works started getting shoved here. And I don't question their reasoning to leave, I would too. It's pharisaism. But we should not allow one person who doesn't have a life, and can sit all day at a computer posting replies, to rule your thread or life. So that is why I am opening up messaging as an option. But if you continue to read this thread and you have questions, just email me them. There is no question too big for God. I have probably ten thousand books, if I can't find the answer, a quick search of the library will find ten or two dozen others who have encountered said question. This is a topic that has been debated for two thousand years. It's not new. Anyway, I love you guys with all my heart. The grace message is what saved me. But because I was saved by free grace, I allowed sin into my life as a christian, which destroyed, and took twenty years of my life. I went through bankrupsty, a foreclosure process, loss of jobs, break off's of engagements (three times), and a nervous breakdown. All because even though I was saved, I never made him lord of my life. If that is you, then this topic is for you. If you are addicted to inappropriate contentography or looking at girls on instagram, twitter, snapchat, or facebook. That is just another form of inappropriate contentography. if you are a godly man and you have verses all down your twitter account, but you follow pretty girls, and check them out, that is inappropriate contentography. If you are married and can't stop looking at that younger girl at church or work, that is another form of adultery. We live in a sex saturated society, we need all the help we can get from one another, that is why this debate is childish to me and a waste of time. Debating calvinism, or arminianism, or debating can you lose salvation, or debating politics, or debating works salvation. Can't you guys see that Jesus want's our time, and effort. We are focussed on theology, Christ wants us to focus on Him, alone.

if something I said, hit home, and you wish to have accountability or someone to pray with, I would love that. That is more meaningful than debating with people we don't know about politics, God, and religion.

createdtoworship · Oct 13, 2019

sdowney717 said:
God only tells His people to do those things, and His people are willing to do those things as He has made them begotten again. Now if your not born again, you are not willing to be obedient to Christ as the natural mind is at enmity with God and cannot be submitted to God's law.
People who fall away from the faith were the ones Christ said HE never knew. They however thought they did know Him.

Matthew 7:22-24 1599 Geneva Bible (GNV)
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not by thy Name prophesied, and by thy name cast out devils? and by thy name done many great works?

23 And then will I profess to them, I never knew you, depart from me ye that work iniquity.

Romans 8
5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

1 Peter 1
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,

To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia,
2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood:

Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

If you notice this is the work of God that you believe in Him whom He has sent.
It is the sanctifying work of the Spirit that you become obedient to Jesus Christ, and you then have the atonement of your sins, the blood of sprinkling for the forgiveness of your sins is on you.

ONLY the saints of God will persevere in the faith and be saved. The rest will all fall away. Why do the saints persevere? Because God is their helper and the strength of their heart. And He has written his laws and commandments into their hearts and minds, reread Hebrews 8 about the New Covenant, how it works.

hey brother, you won't convince Him, don't even try. I have debated jehovah's witnesses, and mormons for twenty years. While many people come to faith in Christ, I have never seen anyone come out of that legalism. That is why Christ was mad at the pharisees. Because they shut heaven up. IF you wish to further your walk with Christ, check out twitter. This forum is really bad on Christians. See christians flock here for controversy. Whenever you focus on controversy for years on end and not the saving power of the gospel, you incur all sorts of ill's onto your life. Confusion, bitterness, wasting vast vast amounts of time. playing minecraft all night would be better for your mind than debating cultic people. One thing I realized when debating christian cults, they always think they are better, always. One guy said " I read the bible more than you, pray more than you, do everything better than you." It was a guy that knocked on my door, I simply told him I taught evangelism at a large church and was reading through the Bible in my devotional time, and he got all uptight, and felt he needed to one up me. I wasn't boasting I was just saying that I have heard of God before. Then he got all wierd on me. See I poked him in his religious pride. And debating them will only infuriate them and empower them. The only reason why they are on this forum is because people adress them. I made that mistake too, but I simply did it briefly, adressed maybe ten posts, then when it started to repeat, got out. Go ahead take a turn, but after awhile realize that religion makes perfect sense. while grace does not make sense. IT does not makes sense to give stuff away for free, angels were confused when grace came the Bible says. Because they were used to sacrifice and stuff. Then God sacrifices his son, and they were like 'woah, that is crazy."

anyway, let me know if I can help, or if you get stuck. I don't mind helping you get ammunition or if you get confused about a verse. But debating with someone who is already convinced is a waste of time. I don't even think this poster has a home church. I think he read the Bible, sort of formulated his own particular recipe for salvation, and because no one else agreed, he just used this debate as sort of his church.

createdtoworship · Oct 13, 2019

duplicate

sdowney717 · Oct 13, 2019

gradyll said:
hey brother, you won't convince Him, don't even try. I have debated jehovah's witnesses, and mormons for twenty years. While many people come to faith in Christ, I have never seen anyone come out of that legalism. That is why Christ was mad at the pharisees. Because they shut heaven up. IF you wish to further your walk with Christ, check out twitter. This forum is really bad on Christians. See christians flock here for controversy. Whenever you focus on controversy for years on end and not the saving power of the gospel, you incur all sorts of ill's onto your life. Confusion, bitterness, wasting vast vast amounts of time. playing minecraft all night would be better for your mind than debating cultic people. One thing I realized when debating christian cults, they always think they are better, always. One guy said " I read the bible more than you, pray more than you, do everything better than you." It was a guy that knocked on my door, I simply told him I taught evangelism at a large church and was reading through the Bible in my devotional time, and he got all uptight, and felt he needed to one up me. I wasn't boasting I was just saying that I have heard of God before. Then he got all wierd on me. See I poked him in his religious pride. And debating them will only infuriate them and empower them. The only reason why they are on this forum is because people adress them. I made that mistake too, but I simply did it briefly, adressed maybe ten posts, then when it started to repeat, got out. Go ahead take a turn, but after awhile realize that religion makes perfect sense. while grace does not make sense. IT does not makes sense to give stuff away for free, angels were confused when grace came the Bible says. Because they were used to sacrifice and stuff. Then God sacrifices his son, and they were like 'woah, that is crazy."

anyway, let me know if I can help, or if you get stuck. I don't mind helping you get ammunition or if you get confused about a verse. But debating with someone who is already convinced is a waste of time. I don't even think this poster has a home church. I think he read the Bible, sort of formulated his own particular recipe for salvation, and because no one else agreed, he just used this debate as sort of his church.

I do agree there are many heresies people believe here. Contentions and dissensions come about because people in their natural state are against what the Spirit teaches. You have God's Holy Spirit who teaches the truth to His people and the world comes along and distorts, twists and changes the message because there is evil and demonic wisdom on the earth. They and the demons create the contentions and dissension which are some of the works of the flesh, and these are opposed to the fruit of the Holy Spirit, the things God does in our lives.

Galatians 5:19-23 New King James Version (NKJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.

There is no law against these who have the work of the Holy Spirit indwelling them, because God has begotten them again from incorruptible seed and they are His purchased
possession

Ephesians 1:13-15 New King James Version (NKJV)
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

God gives to us His eternal life as a gift of love to the praise of His glory, as it is a perfect New Covenant established in Christ's blood and scripture cannot be broken.

Bible Highlighter · Oct 13, 2019

sdowney717 said:
I do agree there are many heresies people believe here. Contentions and dissensions come about because people in their natural state are against what the Spirit teaches. You have God's Holy Spirit who teaches the truth to His people and the world comes along and distorts, twists and changes the message because there is evil and demonic wisdom on the earth. They and the demons create the contentions and dissension which are some of the works of the flesh, and these are opposed to the fruit of the Holy Spirit, the things God does in our lives.

Galatians 5:19-23 New King James Version (NKJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.

There is no law against these who have the work of the Holy Spirit indwelling them, because God has begotten them again from incorruptible seed and they are His purchased
possession

Ephesians 1:13-15 New King James Version (NKJV)
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

God gives to us His eternal life as a gift of love to the praise of His glory, as it is a perfect New Covenant established in Christ's blood and scripture cannot be broken.

But you did not explain posts #108, #109, and #113.

Also, I am for Galatians 5:19-23, as well. I believe that it is by the fruit of the Spirit that we must have in order to show that we have entered the Sanctification process (Which plays a part in the salvation process). There is no Law in the Law of Moses that is against the fruit of the Spirit. It is not referring to all laws in general here. Please, look at the context. Galatians 5:2 says if you seek to be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. Was circumcision a law from the Old Law (with the command given to Abraham, and then also to Israel via the Law of Moses), or was this a Law that was given to us by Jesus and His followers? Clearly Paul was referring to the Old Law that is no more, and that a person seeking to be justified by the Old Law alone without God's grace has fallen from grace. This is what would happen if a person seeked to make circumcision the basis for their salvation instead of faith in Jesus Christ.

As for Ephesians 1:13-15:

This just looking at one aspect of salvation (Which is Justification). This is being saved by God's grace through faith in Christ (i.e. to accept Jesus as one's Savior, to believe on His death and resurrection on one's behalf, and to seek His forgiveness by way of prayer to Him). This is not referring to the Sanctification Process (Holy living by the working of God within a believer) that comes after Justification or in being saved by God's grace. If there is no Sanctification, then there is no fruits of the Spirit. Fruits of the Spirit are deeds or good works. For if one has the fruit of the Spirit of love, they are going to actively love others, etc.

Bible Highlighter · Oct 13, 2019

gradyll said:
Salvation issues are the most important doctrine because it is the method in which we are saved. Almost all religions have some aspect of salvation that is true. But even small errors in salvation theology end up being way off course when you follow it ten or twenty years. For instance a boat that is one degree off course, in a thousand mile journey will completely miss the harbor, or possibly even the island the harbor is on. Rat poison is mostly edible food, it only has a small percentage of poison. That high truth to error ratio makes it palatable for rats. That is the sole factor in the success of rat poison. And that is also the sole factor in why christian cults are so attractive.

Just because you relate your argument for your view of salvation here with certain truths, does not mean you are correct on your view of Soteriology. Also, your continued slander that my view of Soteriology is in line with Christian cults is not proof of anything. What would be helpful to prove that you are correct in any way is to explain the comments on the verses I showed you that clearly show that Sanctification also plays a part in the salvation process after we are saved by God's grace.

You said:
Anyway, I am not adressing Bible highlighter's posts, as I have logically refuted the main premise. There is no evidence that Bible Highlighter is in fact saved, as he believes he is saved by works, which means he has no assurance by definition. So if he is not even saved himself, how can he tell others how to be saved. It reminds me of the pharisees in the bible, they through their legalism shut out people from heaven.

It is against forum rules to slander another poster personally by suggesting that they are not saved. It falls under the rules of goading.

As for the Pharisees and their legalism:

Well, they did not actually keep God's laws. If they did, Jesus would not have a problem with them. They actually were into keeping man made traditions and they ignored the weightier matters of the Law like love, justice, and mercy (See: Matthew 23:23, and Luke 11:42).

You said:
“But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in."

matthew 23:13

If you were to re-read the chapter again, you will notice that it deals with moral instruction and not in simply believing in Jesus and your version of repentance (Which is turning away from sin). You want turning away from sin not to be works in any way. But Paul says that to love your neighbor is to fulfill the Moral Law like do not kill, do not covet, do not steal, etc. So a person fulfills the passive aspects of saying "no" to sin in regards to the Moral Law by loving their neighbor (Which is an active thing or a good work). 1 John 2:9-11 relates loving your brother as walking in the light, and 1 John 1:7 says that walking in the light is a part of the blood of Jesus cleansing a believer of all sin. 1 John 3:15 says whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and no murderer has eternal life abiding in them. Hating one's brother is the natural result of not loving them. Jesus agreed with the lawyer that we must love God and love our neighbor as a part of eternal life (See Luke 10:25-28).

You said:
Since Jesus came there was only two places in the new testament that revealed God's anger toward man. Both were toward the religious hypocrite. A religious hypocrite tells others how to be saved, but cannot save himself. See salvation is a free gift as romans four and ephesians 2 states, yes we must repent of our sin and turn to the true God. But that is a free gift too. We get to repent, after Christ forgives us and gives us a new slate, we are allowed to repent. In the Bible it speaks of "granting repentance" See God grants us that gift. Before Christ came into our lives we were bound to sin, we were stuck in addictive behaviour. But after Christ came He did away with the law of sin and death. The law is a school master to bring us to Christ. Yes in Christ we fulfill the law of love, but that is Christ in us. Not of ourselves, it's Christ's work in our lives. Anyway, I won't ramble on. Bible Highlighter believes the error that all religions teach, that we can work ourselves to God. But that would be like jumping to the moon, heaven is a perfect place. So any imperfection is by default rejected. All christian cults believe in grace, but when interviewed about it, it's really just works. They say that God give us the chance to save ourselves by works, by forgiving us. But again, "Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?" Galatians 3:3

Why did Paul say what he did in Galatians 3:3? In Galatians 2:3 (just one chapter earlier), he says that neither him or Titus had compelled the Galatians to be circumcised. This was the heresy that was going on at the time. The Jews were trying to get Christians to think that they had to be circumcised in order to be saved (See Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:24). But circumcision was a part of the Old Law (Which is no more - Hebrews 8:13), and they also got the order wrong, as well. But salvation was always by God's grace through faith (Justification), and holy living by God working in the believer (Sanctification) follows. For Abraham was first saved by GOD via by Justification or God's grace through faith. Abraham had to believe in GOD first without works just like everyone else. This is the Justification Process and it is not about Works Alone Salvationism. Being saved by God's grace wipes your past slate of sin clean, so that you can then walk uprightly. Sanctification playing a part in the salvation process does not undo Justification that also saves us. They are not in conflict with each other in any way. The first work of God (Justification) is about forgiveness of sins and redemption to come to GOD and His salvation, and then Sanctification (the second work of GOD) is about putting sin out of one's life and living holy for the Lord by the power of GOD. If a believer sins again, do they go out and do a good work to be saved? No. They go to God's grace and they confess of their sins to Jesus (1 John 2:1) (1 John 1:9). For if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. So we are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace. I do not believe we can be saved without God's grace because it is how we gain salvation, and it is how we are ultimately saved. Jesus is our foundation. Even in walking in the light deals with Christ's sacrifice cleansing us of all sin (See 1 John 1:7). No Eternal Security Proponent or Belief Alone Proponent is able to properly explain 1 John 1:7 to me over the years. They do not regard the word "if" in that verse for starters.

Bible Highlighter · Oct 13, 2019

gradyll said:
Yes in Christ we fulfill the law of love, but that is Christ in us. Not of ourselves, it's Christ's work in our lives.

I have stated to you several times that it is GOD that does the good work through the believer. Alone without God we cannot do any kind of good. It is only GOD who is capable of doing good, and in the Sanctification Process, we cooperate with the good work that GOD desires to do through us. All glory and praise goes to GOD.

Also, how do you fulfill the Law of love if you also believe the carnal Christian is saved?
Is that not teaching that a believer has an exception to sin and still be saved? What if the believer thinks they can always remain carnal or if they fall more into the realm of carnality? Where is the line drawn? But justifying just one grievous sin is enough to separate a believer from GOD. For what do you think happened in the Garden of Eden? It only took one sin to separate Adam and Eve spiritually from God. Ananias and Sapphira were instantly killed for lying to the Spirit and a great fear came upon the church when they heard about it. The only reason the emotion of fear makes sense is if the church could also fall away due to a similar sin of condemnation of instant death.

Anyway, I won't ramble on. Bible Highlighter believes the error that all religions teach, that we can work ourselves to God.

If works do not save, then a believer does not have to submit to GOD (Which is an action or work on their part). But you say that we have to submit to GOD as a part of salvation. I agree that we have to submit to GOD, too. But this would be submitting to obeying His commandments that includes not only passive commands like do not murder, do not commit adultery, and do not steal, etc., but they also include obeying His active commands that tell us to preach the gospel, help the poor, and to love the brethren (See: Luke 9:62, Luke 10:25-28, Matthew 25:31-46, 1 Corinthians 16:22, 1 John 1:7, 1 John 2:9-11, 1 John 3:10, 1 John 3:15).

You said:
But that would be like jumping to the moon, heaven is a perfect place. So any imperfection is by default rejected. All christian cults believe in grace, but when interviewed about it, it's really just works. They say that God give us the chance to save ourselves by works, by forgiving us. But again, "Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?" Galatians 3:3

So again, this debate is going nowhere, and I knew instantly that it would not achieve any success. I have debated christian cults for nearly twenty years. And I have never seen a single person converted to christianity. The reason is this..... works salvation feeds our flesh. It is a work of the flesh according to galatians 3:3. Sanctification is also by faith as I have shown in previous posts. Justified by faith, and sanctified by that same exact faith. That is why it says "are you foolish to believe that that which begun in the spirit can be perfected by the flesh".

Good works (after we are saved by God's grace) as a part of the salvation does not feed our flesh. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says God has chosen us to salvation through a belief of the truth, and through the Sanctification of the Spirit. This is holy living because verse 12 talks about the opposite contrast of verse 13.

Galatians 3:3 is not talking about works in general, but it is referring to "circumcision."

Please see Galatians 2:3, and Galatians 5:2. They talk about the heresy of "circumcision salvationism." This was the false belief that said that you had to be circumcised in order to be saved (Again, see Acts of the Apostles 15). When Paul spoke against the Law and or works in general was a part of his larger argument in refuting "Circumcision Salvationism." For if a person thinks they have to first be circumcised to be saved, then they are making the Law and or works the basis for the salvation and not God's grace through faith. This is where you get tripped up. You have to ignore the context in order to make your view of Soteriology work here. Romans 8:13 says if you live after the flesh, you will die, but if you put to death the deeds of the body by the Spirit, you will live. Paul is talking to believers in Romans 8:13 and he is giving them a choice to live one way that leads to spiritual death, and they can live another way that leads to life.

Paul even says you can deny God by a lack of works in Titus 1:16.
These are verses that are not rationally explained by the plain reading of the text in English from your point of view. These verses either go unanswered or they changed to say something else entirely (beyond what it plainly says).

Mormons are the most recruited christian cult right now. Jehovah's witnesses are following behind, because they are slightly more legalistic, and in this day and age, that doesn't strive well with people.

Again, guilt by association is not always true. Catholics believe in the Trinity, but that does not mean the Trinity is not true just because I and other Christians think Catholicism is unbiblical. Also, a blind squirrel can find a nut.

You said:
They don't celebrate holidays, etc.

I know some Christians like to celebrate Halloween. But why would a believer who is of the light want to celebrate something that is of darkness and death? Also, Christmas is about consumerism and greed and looking good in front of others. It is not about really giving out of one's heart out of a pure love. When we see people being killed at department stores over trying to buy gifts, we know that such a spirit is not of GOD. These things are of the world. But again, a blind squirrel kind find a nut. Usually for somebody to be deceived by something, there has to be some kind of truth within it in order to make somebody believe in it. I believe this to be the case with the JW religion and Mormonism (Which are clearly unbiblical and false roads to salvation).

You said:
But if you simply understand grace, and the new testament, romans, galatians, ephesians. Then the law books of the new testament make sense. One you are saved, you are free to get out of your addictions. Now don't get me wrong, many many Christians think that simply believing in JEsus is enough, it's not. You must repent. See the devils believe in Jesus, the Bible says...so what does it make us if we believe too?

But see, James is not talking about repentance exactly in James 2. When James says that the demons believe and tremble, his point was having a faith that also has works. For James 2:17 says faith without works is dead. Works and not repentance. This is what James is saying here in James 2. James 2:24 says we are justified by works and not by faith alone. Folks get tripped up when they read Ephesians 2:8-9. But they do not understand that this is talking about an entirely different aspect of salvation (Which is the Justification Process or God's grace without works). We are saved by God's grace through faith in Christ without works which is a part of the 1st work of GOD, and then we are saved in Sanctification or holy living (Which includes works) (Which is the 2nd work of God). These two works of GOD move in harmony together. Out of God's grace flows Sanctification or holy living. See Ephesians 5:25-27, Romans 5:21, and Titus 2:11-12.

Is salvation by grace alone? Or faith alone? Or grace through faith? or by faith plus repentance?

How are we saved.

salvation by grace alone (sola gracia)

salvation by faith alone (sola fide)

salvation by grace through faith

Saved by turning from our sins and trusting in Christ's salvation

saved by works, merit, obedience, performance morally speaking, plus faith

saved by works of the law, plus faith

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

In the grip of grace

In the grip of grace

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Newbie

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Newbie

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

In the grip of grace

In the grip of grace

In the grip of grace

Newbie

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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