Did the apostles and the early Church believe the Earth was flat?

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ViaCrucis

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Huh? That objects in the sky overhead appear to diminish in size, descend towards the horizon and get progressively obscured by haze as they recede without actually changing altitude?

Hand wavy magic!? Surely you jest.

Yes, hand wavy magic. There's no magical "convergence point" that exists. If the sun were getting more distant, then it should look like it's getting more distant, we should see the sun getting smaller. And yet, that isn't what we see happening now is it? We don't see the sun getting farther away and then hitting some magical convergence point. We see the sun dip below the curvature of the earth. That's what we see, that's what we observe. It's what all of us observe as a "sunset". It happens literally every single day.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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GreekOrthodox

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Which philosophers and what did they say that would imply it was round?

Here's a book by an one author who reads the original Greek writing that Plato thought the earth as flat. "It seems clear that in the republic Plato had in mind the traditional poetic picture of Hades below a flat earth"
The Shape of the Earth in Plato's "Phaedo" on JSTOR

In Egypt, a Greek scholar and philosopher, Eratosthenes (276 BCE – 195 BCE), devised a method for a more explicit measurement of the earth's size. Reports from the ancient city of Swenett, later known as Syene, stated that on the day of the summer solstice, the midday sun shone to the bottom of a well. He observed in Alexandria, that the sun was not directly overhead. Instead, the direction of shadows cast made an angle with the vertical equal to 1/50th of a full circle (7° 12'). To these observations, Hellenistic Astronomy and knowledge of the local geography had already established that; (1) on the day of the summer solstice, the midday sun was directly over the Tropic of Cancer; (2) Syene was on this tropic; (3) Alexandria and Syene lay on a direct north-south line; (4) The sun was a relatively long way away (which would later be known as the astronomical unit). He determined that distance between Alexandria and Syene was 5000 stadia, (possibly by having hired someone to walk and measure the distance, but more likely using reports of travelers of the distance) or at the usual Hellenic 185 m per stadion, about 925 km.


Eratosthenes' method for determining the size of the Earth
From these observations, measurements, and/or "known" facts, Eratosthenes concluded that since the angular deviation of the sun from the vertical direction at Alexandria was also the angle of the subtended arc (see illustration), the linear distance between Alexandria and Syene was 1/50 of the circumference of the Earth which thus must be 50×5000 = 250,000 stadia or probably 25,000 nautical miles. The circumference of the Earth is 24,902 mi (40,075.16 km). Over the poles it is more precisely 40,008 km or 24,860 mi.
 
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prodromos

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Yes, hand wavy magic. There's no magical "convergence point" that exists. If the sun were getting more distant, then it should look like it's getting more distant, we should see the sun getting smaller. And yet, that isn't what we see happening now is it? We don't see the sun getting farther away and then hitting some magical convergence point. We see the sun dip below the curvature of the earth. That's what we see, that's what we observe. It's what all of us observe as a "sunset". It happens literally every single day.

-CryptoLutheran
Someone at Ocean City, on the West coast of Washington state, can watch the sun disappear, yet the peak of Mt Rainier, 150 miles more distant from the sun will still be bathed in sunlight. According to their flat earth model, Mt Rainier should have lost sight of the sun long before Ocean City.
 
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Jipsah

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There is not a single scripture which describes the earth as spherical and moving.
No mention of glaciers or aurora borealis or RF propagation or gravity or vanishing points a great many other things that are quite real. I assume that none them exist in your bizzaro universe.

On the other hand there are many verses which describe a fixed flat earth.
Just as we do in vernacular speech. But it's still not flat and your wishing won't make it so. You deny the cosmos as God made it because it doesn't jibe with your interpretation of Scripture. Weird.

I asked you to supply a single scripture to support your claim but suffice to say you have provided none.
No Scripture speaking of giant squids or asteroids, either. I guess they don't exist, right?

The vernacular need not be technical. Why should it be?? The creation account is sufficient in layman's terms to describe God's creation and so is the rest of Scripture which describes the earth.
Nope. It doesn't, as simple observation demonstrates. Your lot has been successful in getting both basic Biblical understanding and look-out-your-window level science wrong. Quite an accomplishment.

Your appeal to "technical" language is a result of being brain washed by your secular education. I prefer to stick with what the scriptures state.
No appeal to technical language, just to a few thousand years of reality as set forth by disinterested (as opposed to uninterested) observers. You have traded observed, and observable, reality in exchange for a willful and probably intentional misunderstanding of Scripture. What you have left is a weird fiction.

As for your yagi antenna, please be informed that you are propagating your radio waves by refracting them off of the biblical "firmament" otherwise known by your technical term "ionosphere."
Still waiting for your scripture verse.
As soon as you provide the Scripture support for "refracting" an HF signal off the ionosphere, and how that "refraction" allows me to talk to a ham in Sydney (OK, Brisbane) when my beam is pointed into what you apparently believe is deep space.

On that same note, why do you reckon the Russians felt the need to build an HF radar array, when plain old microwave radar ought to work fine in your universe? What deluded them think they needed it in the first place?

And apart from that, could you provide Scripture detailing why HF signals are "refracted" from The Firmament, but VHF and above are not? And why is it that I can bounce a UHF signal off the moon? Pretty small target, and not much reflective area, wouldn't you think? Could you give me an Old Testament citation on that?
 
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Jipsah

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prodromos

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Can't happen. The picture has been shopped, and it's all part of The Conspiracy. There isn't really a mountain there, and it's refraction.
There's an awful lot of things that can't happen in their model of the cosmos which inexplicably keep happening on a regular basis.
 
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Jipsah

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Prodromos - FWIW, not much, I reckon, the first I talked long path to Oz, I was talking to an old man (all male hams are "Old Man") in Brisbane. All I can remember is his name was Fred, and his call was VK4-something, which is Queensland. I tried working him short part but there was a lot of interference between here (Mt Juliet Tennessee, then) and there. We could make each other out using CW (Morse code), but I was a pretty sorry excuse for a brass tapper and he suggested I try long path because it might be clear enough for voice. It was, and I proclaimed him a genius.
 
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prodromos

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Prodromos - FWIW, not much, I reckon, the first I talked long path to Oz, I was talking to an old man (all male hams are "Old Man") in Brisbane. All I can remember is his name was Fred, and his call was VK4-something, which is Queensland. I tried working him short part but there was a lot of interference between here (Mt Juliet Tennessee, then) and there. We could make each other out using CW (Morse code), but I was a pretty sorry excuse for a brass tapper and he suggested I try long path because it might be clear enough for voice. It was, and I proclaimed him a genius.
Those skills and knowledge will come in awfully handy when a solar flare (another no no in their model) knocks out all the satellites and cell towers. I hope you are passing it on.
 
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prodromos

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No, it's the standard model that posits refraction of the sun below the horizon. The flat model says it recedes until it reaches the convergence point and gets progressively obscured.
Since you hail from Melbourne, take a trip to Lorne in the Great Otway National Park, get up before dawn and watch Mt Cowley to your West. You will see the sun start hitting the more distant mountain long before you can see the sun appear over the horizon and watch the shadow of the earth's horizon slowly move down the face of the mountain until it finally reaches Lorne. If the sun was appearing out of haze from the distance, you would see the sun before someone on the peak would on a flat earth. This does not happen though because the earth is not flat.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Someone at Ocean City, on the West coast of Washington state, can watch the sun disappear, yet the peak of Mt Rainier, 150 miles more distant from the sun will still be bathed in sunlight. According to their flat earth model, Mt Rainier should have lost sight of the sun long before Ocean City.

Frankly, I'd just be curious how flerfers try and explain Rayleigh scattering at all--why the sky looks different during the day, during sunset, during twilight, etc.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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There's no magical "convergence point" that exists.

You're right, the convergence point is not magical. It's a fact of optics. If the earth was curved nothing would work as organised perspective lines and geometries. We'd be living in a Salvador Dali or MC Escher world. Where is the curve? Just measure it, stop staring at the sun, you'll get blinded plus people might think you're worshipping the thing.
 
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prodromos

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Presently in Sydney, the sun rises at 6:20am and sets at 7:05pm, so the sun is visible for 12.75 hours. According to the flat earth model, the sun is following a circular path on a plane that is parallel to the earth's surface. Since it is visible for slightly more than half of 24 hours, that means that the sun will trace an arc of 191.25° parallel to the surface yet it clearly follows a nearly straight path from East to West. If it did as flat earthers claim, it should appear to rise in the North East, travel South as it moves overhead and then back to the North to set in the North West.
Talk about Salvador Dali and MC Escher! Straight lines are actually circular arcs and circular arcs are straight lines! What a bizarre unreality flat earthers live in.
 
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Norbert L

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In Egypt, a Greek scholar and philosopher, Eratosthenes (276 BCE – 195 BCE),
To be truthful I was already aware of Eratosthenes, however the wording of the OP can leave the impression that there was a majority consensus readily available to the average person during Christ's time that the world was round among the educated. At least it seemed to me that's what it could imply. Given the link you provided, an internal link from that leads to this, "The early Greeks, in their speculation and theorizing, ranged from the flat disc advocated by Homer to the spherical body postulated by Pythagoras. Pythagoras's idea was supported later by Aristotle". Which would be far more accurate in my view.
 
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Oldmantook

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No mention of glaciers or aurora borealis or RF propagation or gravity or vanishing points a great many other things that are quite real. I assume that none them exist in your bizzaro universe.

Just as we do in vernacular speech. But it's still not flat and your wishing won't make it so. You deny the cosmos as God made it because it doesn't jibe with your interpretation of Scripture. Weird.

No Scripture speaking of giant squids or asteroids, either. I guess they don't exist, right?

Nope. It doesn't, as simple observation demonstrates. Your lot has beeb sucessful and look-out-your-window level science wrong. Quite an accomplishment.

[quote[]Your appeal to "technical" language is a result of being brain washed by your secular education. I prefer to stick with what the scriptures state.
No appeal to technical language, just to a few thousand years of reality as set forth by disinterested (as opposed to uninterested) observers. You have traded observed, and observable, reality in exchange for a willful and probably intentional misunderstanding of Scripture. What you have left is a weird fiction.

As son as your provide the Scripture support "refracting" an HF signal off the ionosphere, and how that "refraction" allows me to talk to a ham in Sydney (OK, Brisbane) when my beam is pointed into what you apparently believe is deep space.

On that same note, why do you reckon the Russians fltl the need to build an HF radar array, when plain old microwave radar ought to work fine in your universe? What deluded them think they needed it in the first place?

And apart from that, could you provide Scripture detailing why HF signals are "refracted" from The Firmament, but VHF and above are not? And why is it that I can bounce UHF signal off the moon? Pretty small target, and not much reflective area, wouldn't you think? Could you give me an Old Testament citation on that?[/QUOTE]
Instead of continuing to give me your meager excuses, why don't you just give a single scripture for a spherical, moving earth. I've answered all your questions even though you continue to disagree which is of course your prerogative. Don't bother replying if you can't do so since I've requesting a scripture citation from you more than once and for whatever reason you've avoided doing so. I prefer to believe what the scriptures plainly state. You can believe your secular sources.
 
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ViaCrucis

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You're right, the convergence point is not magical. It's a fact of optics. If the earth was curved nothing would work as organised perspective lines and geometries. We'd be living in a Salvador Dali or MC Escher world. Where is the curve? Just measure it, stop staring at the sun, you'll get blinded plus people might think you're worshipping the thing.

Funny you should say that, because as it turns out--perspectives and geometry work pretty well on a curved earth.

Just measure the curve? Eratosthenes got you beat by 25 centuries.

1280px-Eratosthenes_measure_of_Earth_circumference.svg.png


-CryptoLutheran
 
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prodromos

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Instead of continuing to give me your meager excuses, why don't you just give a single scripture for a spherical, moving earth. I've answered all your questions even though you continue to disagree which is of course your prerogative. Don't bother replying if you can't do so since I've requesting a scripture citation from you more than once and for whatever reason you've avoided doing so. I prefer to believe what the scriptures plainly state. You can believe your secular sources.
The Scriptures describe the sun rising in the East, following a straight path overhead, and setting in the West, not rising in the North East, circling around via the South and setting in the North West as would have to be the case on a flat earth model.
 
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Jipsah

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Instead of continuing to give me your meager excuses, why don't you just give a single scripture for a spherical, moving earth.
Sure, as soon as you provide the Scriptural explanation of HF interaction with The Firmament. Since the Bible appears to have mutated into a technical tome in your reality, I expect it has to reveal the workings of RF communications, especially as touching the behavior of long-range HF communications, which function precisely as though the earth was spherical (as do so many other things). Why do HF signals bounce off The Firmament while higher frequencies do not? And where does the radiation that isn't reflected back back go?

Here's something else I need Scriptural guidance on as well. If there's QRM (RF interference) between here and Brisbane when I point my beam directly at Brisbane, why was it not there when I pointed my beam north? If as you believe, my signal was "refracted" by The Firmament back south, seems like it would have encountered the same QRM once it made its trip back south, made worse by attenuation suffered on its trip north before hitting The Firmament. Assuming that Vk4FRED turned his antenna as well, his signal coming to me with QRM and the reduced power from the longer trip and energy dissipated on the added distance and the bounce itself. In other words, the problem should only have gotten worse by turning the beams. Unless, of course, the world is round, in which case no QRM and only the signal loss from a few extra skips, and a pleasant voice conversation. Which is what happened.

I prefer to believe what the scriptures plainly state. You can believe your secular sources.
Good thing for everyone that you're not an engineer.
 
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Oldmantook

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Sure, as soon as you provide the Scriptural explanation of HF interaction with The Firmament. Since the Bible appears to have mutated into a technical tome in your reality, I expect it has to reveal the workings of RF communications, especially as touching the behavior of long-range HF communications, which function precisely as though the earth was spherical (as do so many other things). Why do HF signals bounce off The Firmament while higher frequencies do not? And where does the radiation that isn't reflected back back go?

Here's something else I need Scriptural guidance on as well. If there's QRM (RF interference) between here and Brisbane when I point my beam directly at Brisbane, why was it not there when I pointed my beam north? If as you believe, my signal was "refracted" by The Firmament back south, seems like it would have encountered the same QRM once it made its trip back south, made worse by attenuation suffered on its trip north before hitting The Firmament. Assuming that Vk4FRED turned his antenna as well, his signal coming to me with QRM and the reduced power from the longer trip and energy dissipated on the added distance and the bounce itself. In other words, the problem should only have gotten worse by turning the beams. Unless, of course, the world is round, in which case no QRM and only the signal loss from a few extra skips, and a pleasant voice conversation. Which is what happened.

Good thing for everyone that you're not an engineer.
Alas...broken promises by you. But no surprise here as you could not come up with one single verse in all of Scripture that describes a spherical earth rotating around the sun. Good thing not everyone believes the same as you.
 
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Oldmantook

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The Scriptures describe the sun rising in the East, following a straight path overhead, and setting in the West, not rising in the North East, circling around via the South and setting in the North West as would have to be the case on a flat earth model.
I believe you have neglected to take into account that the earth is not only flat but surrounded by a domed firmament which plays a crucial part on how we perceive the sun's movement with our naked eyes based upon where we live on the earth. Our perspective based on our location determines the location of the sun as it rises and sets. The scenario you describe does not account for the firmament. A better visual explanation can be seen here:
 
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In Egypt, a Greek scholar and philosopher, Eratosthenes (276 BCE – 195 BCE), devised a method for a more explicit measurement of the earth's size. Reports from the ancient city of Swenett, later known as Syene, stated that on the day of the summer solstice, the midday sun shone to the bottom of a well. He observed in Alexandria, that the sun was not directly overhead. Instead, the direction of shadows cast made an angle with the vertical equal to 1/50th of a full circle (7° 12'). To these observations, Hellenistic Astronomy and knowledge of the local geography had already established that; (1) on the day of the summer solstice, the midday sun was directly over the Tropic of Cancer; (2) Syene was on this tropic; (3) Alexandria and Syene lay on a direct north-south line; (4) The sun was a relatively long way away (which would later be known as the astronomical unit). He determined that distance between Alexandria and Syene was 5000 stadia, (possibly by having hired someone to walk and measure the distance, but more likely using reports of travelers of the distance) or at the usual Hellenic 185 m per stadion, about 925 km.


Eratosthenes' method for determining the size of the Earth
From these observations, measurements, and/or "known" facts, Eratosthenes concluded that since the angular deviation of the sun from the vertical direction at Alexandria was also the angle of the subtended arc (see illustration), the linear distance between Alexandria and Syene was 1/50 of the circumference of the Earth which thus must be 50×5000 = 250,000 stadia or probably 25,000 nautical miles. The circumference of the Earth is 24,902 mi (40,075.16 km). Over the poles it is more precisely 40,008 km or 24,860 mi.

Sorry to burst your bubble there, but apart from the practical improbability of Eratosthenes being in 2 places at the same time, his conclusion merely begs the question:

The whole tale is way too convenient and stinks of Jesuitical monkeying with the historical record. Wherever there's a big fraud eg big bang, evolution (Piltdown Man) or A-bomb (Hiroshima), you'll find a Jesuit bearing false witness.

Praise God for the gift of discernment and the power to trample down serpents.
 
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