I'm a Christian but I can't get behind the notion that God is mericful

gideon123 · Oct 10, 2019

OP , Look more carefully ...

God was merciful to Moses. Moses broke God's instructions. But the Lord did not strike him down. Moses died on a mountain, and was able to see the Promised Land at a distance.

God was very merciful to Aron. Aron made an idol of a calf frpm gold. He could have received the death penalty. But like Moses, he was allowed to die on a mountain.

God was merciful to King David. The penalty for murder and adultery was death. God accepted David's apologies for his sins and renewed his salvation.

The list goes on ... you need to look for the examples.

In situations where God struck people down, neatly always they received stern warnings from the prophets. But they chose to keep sinning and ignore God.

D.A. Wright · Oct 10, 2019

TommySoda said:
I mean the God of the Bible hasn't given anyone a reason to me personally a reason to believe he's merciful.

You mean besides the fact that He became a man, allowed men to crucify Him (Google reveals that that's a pretty horrible punishment) while He pleaded with the Father to forgive them for their ignorance, and then proceeded to absorb the final punishment for every evil deed that's ever been perpetrated?

Silverback · Oct 10, 2019

TommySoda said:
Just look at the Old Testament there is no mercy. Those who are told they are going to die die (Davids son, Achan etc). The Old Testament seemed like a very much "one strike rule you're out". It seems God rarely spared lives besides the rare occasions Isreal/Judah repented. Moving to the New Testament I see cases like ananias and sapphira. It just seems like to me there's way more death than mercy/lives and judgment being spared. If anyone has any counter argument verses feel free but.

This is how it was explained to me, it's the same answer to every scenario where our abilities cannot comprehend what God commands, or has let transpire.

-God is sovereign
-If God chooses to do something, or, not do something it is always, just, right, and fair.
-God's Justice, righteousness, and holiness are just as much part of his nature, as his Love, mercy, and goodness.
-Our righteousness is as filthy tags
-His ways are not our ways
-His thoughts are not our thoughts
-God does not owe us anything.

For me, it's a matter of faith that God is in control, and that he loves us, and will make the right decision.

Anguspure · Oct 10, 2019

TommySoda said:
Just look at the Old Testament there is no mercy. Those who are told they are going to die die (Davids son, Achan etc). The Old Testament seemed like a very much "one strike rule you're out". It seems God rarely spared lives besides the rare occasions Isreal/Judah repented. Moving to the New Testament I see cases like ananias and sapphira. It just seems like to me there's way more death than mercy/lives and judgment being spared. If anyone has any counter argument verses feel free but.

When you consider that all of us are rightfully destined for death, in all ages, then it should be clear that any offered opportunity for continued life is a mercy.

Jay Marion · Oct 10, 2019

TommySoda said:
Just look at the Old Testament there is no mercy. Those who are told they are going to die die (Davids son, Achan etc). The Old Testament seemed like a very much "one strike rule you're out". It seems God rarely spared lives besides the rare occasions Isreal/Judah repented. Moving to the New Testament I see cases like ananias and sapphira. It just seems like to me there's way more death than mercy/lives and judgment being spared. If anyone has any counter argument verses feel free but.

Pavel Mosko · Oct 10, 2019

TommySoda said:
The Old Testament seemed like a very much "one strike rule you're out". It seems God rarely spared lives besides the rare occasions Isreal/Judah repented.

That is true only in situations where people are transgressing an established standard of holiness like touching the ark of the Covenant etc.

Atheists like talk about things like the genocides etc. but they tend to overlook that those events took place after centuries of malfeasance. Not to mention there was a way out provided in many cases such as running away, repentance etc.

MournfulWatcher · Oct 10, 2019

TommySoda said:
The problem is that is how portrayed in the Old Testament "ready to drop kick". Every other verse is discussing God threatening to kill people, ordering to kill people or his wrath. Maybe I need to re-read the good book but it seems like its more judgment than mercy contrary to many versus calling him merciful. How is a young christian suppose to digest all of that?

I don't know how old you are, but it wasn't that long ago that I wrestled with the same problem. I couldn't make sense of these passages at the time, and it made me angry at God.
It wasn't until I got older that I realized that the problem wasn't with God but was because I was asking the wrong question.

When I was eighteen I went through a crisis where I truly understood the terror and horror of the evil in our human nature, that it was in every other person, and more terrifyingly, it was in me. I am full of evil and foolishness; God is completely good. Not just that, but He is goodness itself, all knowing and wiser beyond my ability to know. I don't even know what will happen tomorrow, or next week, or next year. But God does. He knows what the ultimate good is. That's what we were intended to partake in, but our evil caused man and God to be separated. All evil leads to death, and all of our wicked deeds will damage those we love. That is one of the things David learned from his wicked behavior.

If you pay attention to scripture, a lot of the time people's sins are punished by God giving them over to their evil, because they wanted nothing to do with Him anyway. Paul talks about this in Romans 1. This is also what God did with Israel when they gradually became more violent and wicked throughout the old testament; God removed His hand and allowed them to be conquered by foreign national that trampled them under foot.

This is what our sin results in: destruction. God shows us this over and over again, either by His withdrawal or His active punishment. Evil is the enemy of God, and must be destroyed. That is what He ultimately did on the cross.

I know it doesn't all make sense right now, but it will one day. Hold fast to God, ask Him to help you understand, and have patience. It took years for me to understand these things and there are still many things that are mysterious to me. But look to Christ's resurrection and the reality of God's existence.

I want to give you some resources that have helped me, all channels on YouTube. Check out WhaddoYouMeme, Cross Examined, Inspiring Philosophy, The Bible Project, and Mike Winger. They have a lot of really good resources for talking about these questions and go in depth. They don't beat around the bush when it comes to answering hard questions, they're not afraid to address them.

Sketcher · Oct 10, 2019

TommySoda said:
I have yet to find one story that displays mercy besides maybe the Book of Jonah and some rare times where Judah/Israel repented.

There you go, several examples of mercy.

TommySoda said:
The problem is that is how portrayed in the Old Testament "ready to drop kick". Every other verse is discussing God threatening to kill people, ordering to kill people or his wrath. Maybe I need to re-read the good book but it seems like its more judgment than mercy contrary to many versus calling him merciful. How is a young christian suppose to digest all of that?

Know how much time passed between God's foretelling of Israel's promised destruction, and the actual promised destruction? About 400 years. Plenty of time to repent, even though Israel was doing some pretty vile things (fraud, adultery, corruption, idol worship, child sacrifice).

2PhiloVoid · Oct 10, 2019

TommySoda said:
The problem is that is how portrayed in the Old Testament "ready to drop kick". Every other verse is discussing God threatening to kill people, ordering to kill people or his wrath. Maybe I need to re-read the good book but it seems like its more judgment than mercy contrary to many versus calling him merciful. How is a young christian suppose to digest all of that?

For starters, TommySoda, I'd probably start with affirming the New Testament and the dispensation that it represents and which you and I are actually living in (if Christianity is true, which we believe it is), and I would do this as opposed to worrying about the strict, disciplinarian measures God instituted and dealt out upon the ancient Israelites. Again, that's just for starters.

Then, even after we have read the Old Testament in full and come away from it with an emotional overload of shock, we will again remember that our focus is supposed to be on the person and work of Jesus Christ, our Mediator [an important Word] who knows our hearts, our pain and stands between us and the full judgment of God. So, there's plenty of mercy to be found there, and here, in Christ if we stay glued to His New Covenant.

Third, we can remember that Paul told us as to why all of those nasty stories of punishment were logged one after another in the Old Testament for us to read: 1 Corinthians 10:1-13. That is, so we'd learn not to want those nasty things which some of them wanted and chased after ... and later got zapped by God (yikes!)

But this is just my suggestion even if this is how I, Mr. 50 year old, have handled it all since I was 17. [Oh, man, where has the time gone! ^_^

]

Anyway, I'm sure others here have some additional things they could add to what I'm saying ...

roman2819 · Oct 10, 2019

TommySoda said:
Just look at the Old Testament there is no mercy. Those who are told they are going to die die (Davids son, Achan etc). The Old Testament seemed like a very much "one strike rule you're out". It seems God rarely spared lives besides the rare occasions Isreal/Judah repented. Moving to the New Testament I see cases like ananias and sapphira. It just seems like to me there's way more death than mercy/lives and judgment being spared. If anyone has any counter argument verses feel free but.

The Cannanites were practicising child sacrifices, among other things like temple prostitution. If tbey were spared, they would influence the Israelites.

SkyWriting · Oct 10, 2019

Rebecca4Christ said:
DaveG and I posted at basically the same time,so please disregard this post.

Done.

SkyWriting · Oct 10, 2019

TommySoda said:
Just look at the Old Testament there is no mercy.

Mercy is available under the new covenant.
What Does the Bible Say About New Covenant? - OpenBible

Strong in Him · Oct 11, 2019

TommySoda said:
Just look at the Old Testament there is no mercy. Those who are told they are going to die die

Unless they repent or someone intercedes for them.
For example:
The Israelites were told over and over again that they would be punished for breaking God's laws unless they repented. If they did, they were spared.
The people of Noah's day had lots of time to repent - it would have taken Noah months to build the ark; yet they didn't.
Ahab was a wicked king, 1 Kings 21:25, yet when Elijah told him that the Lord was going to punish him, he repented, 1 Kings 21:27-30.
Hezekiah was once told that he would become ill and die, 2 Kings 20:1. He prayed and asked for mercy, and received it, 2 Kings:20:5.
The whole city of Ninevah were told by Jonah, "40 more days and Ninevah will be overturned", Jonah 3:1. They all fasted, put on sackcloth, humbled themselves before God, and were spared, Jonah 3:10.

TommySoda said:
(Davids son, Achan etc).

I'm not sure which of David's sons you mean. If Amnon, he was killed by his brother Absalom for raping their sister. Absalom himself was later killed because he plotted against his father and tried to snatch the throne from him. Solomon was also David's son, became king after him and was very wealthy.
Achan sinned against God; true, he admitted it, but repenting doesn't always mean we can escape the consequences of our sin. Why he was stoned to death when other people who sinned against God were given another chance, I don't know.

TommySoda said:
It seems God rarely spared lives besides the rare occasions Isreal/Judah repented.

That's quite a big thing; an entire nation sins against God, they repent and are forgiven.
But there were individuals who were spared also; see above. Cain was not killed after he killed Abel.

TommySoda said:
Moving to the New Testament I see cases like ananias and sapphira.

That's only one example - and they deliberately lied against God.
Saul of Tarsus persecuted the early church, possibly had them killed and approved of Stephen being stoned to death; yet Jesus appeared to him, Acts 9. He founded several churches and many were converted.

TommySoda said:
It just seems like to me there's way more death than mercy/lives and judgment being spared.

ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, Romans 3:23.
No one deserves a 2nd chance from God, yet millions of people get one - or more.

TommySoda said:
If anyone has any counter argument verses feel free

Hosea 11:1-4

‘When Israel was a child, I loved him,
and out of Egypt I called my son.
2 But the more they were called,
the more they went away from me.
They sacrificed to the Baals
and they burned incense to images.
3 It was I who taught Ephraim to walk,
taking them by the arms;
but they did not realise
it was I who healed them.
4 I led them with cords of human kindness,
with ties of love.
To them I was like one who lifts
a little child to the cheek,
and I bent down to feed them.

Isaiah 43:1-3

But now, this is what the Lord says –
he who created you, Jacob,
he who formed you, Israel:
‘Do not fear, for I have redeemed you;
I have summoned you by name; you are mine.
2 When you pass through the waters,
I will be with you;
and when you pass through the rivers,
they will not sweep over you.
When you walk through the fire,
you will not be burned;
the flames will not set you ablaze.
3 For I am the Lord your God,
the Holy One of Israel, your Saviour;
I give Egypt for your ransom,
Cush and Seba in your stead.

Isaiah 49:15-18

‘Can a mother forget the baby at her breast
and have no compassion on the child she has borne?
Though she may forget,
I will not forget you!
16 See, I have engraved you on the palms of my hands;
your walls are ever before me.
17 Your children hasten back,
and those who laid you waste depart from you.
18 Lift up your eyes and look around;
all your children gather and come to you.

Jeremiah 31:3-5

The Lord appeared to us in the past, saying:

‘I have loved you with an everlasting love;
I have drawn you with unfailing kindness.
I will build you up again,
and you, Virgin Israel, will be rebuilt.
Again you will take up your tambourines
and go out to dance with the joyful.
Again you will plant vineyards
on the hills of Samaria;
the farmers will plant them
and enjoy their fruit.

Strong in Him · Oct 11, 2019

TommySoda said:
I mean the God of the Bible hasn't given anyone a reason to me personally a reason to believe he's merciful.

Have you ever sinned?
More than once?
Are you still here?

Look at the cross - Romans 5:6-8.

High Fidelity · Oct 11, 2019

TommySoda said:
Just look at the Old Testament there is no mercy. Those who are told they are going to die die (Davids son, Achan etc). The Old Testament seemed like a very much "one strike rule you're out". It seems God rarely spared lives besides the rare occasions Isreal/Judah repented. Moving to the New Testament I see cases like ananias and sapphira. It just seems like to me there's way more death than mercy/lives and judgment being spared. If anyone has any counter argument verses feel free but.

God knows all that was, is and will be, yet he still damned humanity because Eve did something he already knew would happen before mankind existed.

It is what it is.

Strong in Him · Oct 11, 2019

TommySoda said:
Honestly none of that I've just recently read the Bible, digested and came to a conclusion. I was a christian who was always under the conclusion God was merciful. I'm not doubting anything in the Bible. It's just I can't believe he is merciful

Exodus 34:6-7
Deuteronomy 4:31
Psalms 51:1
Lamentations 3:22-23
Daniel 9:9
Hosea 6:6
Micah 6:8
Matthew 5:7
Luke 1:50

Strong in Him · Oct 11, 2019

TommySoda said:
The problem is that is how portrayed in the Old Testament "ready to drop kick". Every other verse is discussing God threatening to kill people, ordering to kill people or his wrath. Maybe I need to re-read the good book but it seems like its more judgment than mercy contrary to many versus calling him merciful. How is a young christian suppose to digest all of that?

Start with the cross, and the NT.
When you are grounded in all of that, maybe then is the time to tackle the OT. It can be difficult; took me years, and even now, some of it still seems violent.

royal priest · Oct 11, 2019

TommySoda said:
Nobody is teaching me anything. David's son also died because of his sin and God punished his other children after adultery/murder. You might want to include the full story.

David loved Jehovah. The loving-kindness (mercy) of his God was the chief theme of his Psalms. It is because of this mercy that David felt encouraged enough to approach his God and pen the following Psalm to Him after he had committed those shocking crimes:
Psalms 51
1Have mercy upon me, O God,
According to Your lovingkindness;
According to the multitude of Your tender mercies,
Blot out my transgressions.
2Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity,
And cleanse me from my sin.

3For I acknowledge my transgressions,
And my sin is always before me.
4Against You, You only, have I sinned,
And done this evil in Your sight—
That You may be found just [a]when You speak,
And blameless when You judge.

5Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
And in sin my mother conceived me.
6Behold, You desire truth in the inward parts,
And in the hidden part You will make me to know wisdom.

7Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean;
Wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
8Make me hear joy and gladness,
That the bones You have broken may rejoice.
9Hide Your face from my sins,
And blot out all my iniquities.

10Create in me a clean heart, O God,
And renew a steadfast spirit within me.
11Do not cast me away from Your presence,
And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.

12Restore to me the joy of Your salvation,
And uphold me by Your generous Spirit.
13Then I will teach transgressors Your ways,
And sinners shall be converted to You.

14Deliver me from the guilt of bloodshed, O God,
The God of my salvation,
And my tongue shall sing aloud of Your righteousness.
15O Lord, open my lips,
And my mouth shall show forth Your praise.
16For You do not desire sacrifice, or else I would give it;
You do not delight in burnt offering.
17The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit,
A broken and a contrite heart—
These, O God, You will not despise.

18Do good in Your good pleasure to Zion;
Build the walls of Jerusalem.
19Then You shall be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness,
With burnt offering and whole burnt offering;
Then they shall offer bulls on Your altar.

Thir7ySev3n · Oct 11, 2019

2PhiloVoid said:
The end of the 2nd commandment, maybe? ... I mean, mercy and grace are for those who wake up and give a darn. But we seem to live in a day and age where because so many live corrupted lives, they want an all pervasive kind of mercy that is really a conflation with "permissiveness," and this is where some of the trouble lies in "seeing" that God is merciful. He is 'full of mercy and grace," but we have to enter the Covenant (New) in order to gain the benefits of His full grace and mercy.

It's kind of like when you go to the gas pump.....they [the cashiers] actually expect us to have to 'pay' our side of the exchange so we can then give our lives some momentum via our vehicle using 'their gas pump.'

Winner. If you want mercy, fear God:

"And his mercy is for those who fear him
from generation to generation." Luke 1:50

"But this is the one to whom I will look:
he who is humble and contrite in spirit
and trembles at my word." Isaiah 66:2

"I tell you, my friends, do not fear those who kill the body, and after that have nothing more that they can do. But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him!" Luke 12:4-5

"For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ." Jude 1:4

Jude1:3Contendforthefaith · Oct 11, 2019

OP check out these verses from way back in the Torah :

The Lord did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any other people, for you were the least of all peoples; But Because The Lord Loves you, and because He would keep the oath which He swore to your fathers, the Lord has brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you from the house of bondage, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
• Deuteronomy 7:7-8

.

I'm a Christian but I can't get behind the notion that God is mericful

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