I'm a Christian but I can't get behind the notion that God is mericful

TommySoda said:

Got any examples or any verses because I got nothing

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Yes. I'm on a phone, so this will be slower than normal. But you could start if you like in chapter 3 and 4 of Jonah, which we just had come up in discussion a day or two ago, so it comes right to mind. Quick and easy to read in 2 minutes. I'll get more while you look.

TommySoda said:

Just look at the Old Testament there is no mercy.

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Mercy has to do with the womb. The way a mother gives her womb to her child to offer protection for the first 9 months of life. Yes eventually they are born into the world. But her mercy endures forever as she continues to provide and take care of the child.

TommySoda said:

Honestly none of that I've just recently read the Bible, digested and came to a conclusion. I was a christian who was always under the conclusion God was merciful. I'm not doubting anything in the Bible. It's just I can't believe he is merciful and literally every other story he's killing someone. I have yet to find one story that displays mercy besides maybe the Book of Jonah and some rare times where Judah/Israel repented.

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Ok. I can understand where you're coming from, but let's face it. God's mercy, such as it is stated, doesn't come to us without strings attached. But yes, I know, it always tends to get preached that God's mercy is in some way "free" in many churches. But that's not exactly what Paul was saying when he said God's mercy and grace are "free."

At the same time, the fact remains that God in Christ is abundantly merciful to all who follow Him and are responding in faith as best they can. Part of that mercy is found in the fact that He's only asking us to exert ourselves as best as we each can, and He knows that each of us don't necessarily have the same advantages as other people, so His compassion comes in His knowing that some of us have harder times following Him, yet He still loves us and is still going to stand by us as we walk after Him. He's not wanting to just drop kick us into the nearest trash can if we stumble or sin. That is mercy and grace.

However, if we thoroughly reject Him, then after He's done what He does in order to get our attention to return to Him, then He'll "let us go."

TommySoda said:

Just look at the Old Testament there is no mercy. Those who are told they are going to die die (Davids son, Achan etc). The Old Testament seemed like a very much "one strike rule you're out". It seems God rarely spared lives besides the rare occasions Isreal/Judah repented. Moving to the New Testament I see cases like ananias and sapphira. It just seems like to me there's way more death than mercy/lives and judgment being spared. If anyone has any counter argument verses feel free but.

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The difference of God dealing with man under Law and being dealt with children under Grace.

TommySoda said:

Just look at the Old Testament there is no mercy. Those who are told they are going to die die (Davids son, Achan etc). The Old Testament seemed like a very much "one strike rule you're out". It seems God rarely spared lives besides the rare occasions Isreal/Judah repented. Moving to the New Testament I see cases like ananias and sapphira. It just seems like to me there's way more death than mercy/lives and judgment being spared. If anyone has any counter argument verses feel free but.

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Why didn't you mention the only death which really matters? Jesus Christ.

Basically, ball religions teach that you are responsible for stopping sin in your life, in order to attain heaven, except Christianity.

Jesus has already achieved perfection for us and all we have to do is let go of our desire to do it ourselves and embrace the cross. Jesus did the hard part and through faith we receive life.

TommySoda said:

I mean the God of the Bible hasn't given anyone a reason to me personally a reason to believe he's merciful. Yeah there are verses claiming he's merciful but he seems like rarely ever executes mercy and just continues with death/judgment.

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There’s mercy and grace throughout the OT. Judgment too!

God waited over 400 years to judge the Canaanites.

TommySoda said:

Just look at the Old Testament there is no mercy. Those who are told they are going to die die (Davids son, Achan etc). The Old Testament seemed like a very much "one strike rule you're out". It seems God rarely spared lives besides the rare occasions Isreal/Judah repented. Moving to the New Testament I see cases like ananias and sapphira. It just seems like to me there's way more death than mercy/lives and judgment being spared. If anyone has any counter argument verses feel free but.

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God IS merciful because he could just condemn us for our sin and leave us no recourse for redemption. Yet, He did offer a way for redemption. Jesus. Even in the Old Testament God was merciful, people get so caught up situations like Sodom and Gomorrah, yet forget God said if just 10 people were righteous he would spare them. How many times did God forgive the Israelites before he issued his judgement?

TommySoda said:

I'll hold you to that promise

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I'm finally back to my computer (was driving), so now I could continue.

Did you read Jonah chapters 3-4 yet? How were they? I included chapter 4 since it is short and fun, and unfamiliar to most people, and shows something profound about God's Mercy.

Jonah 3 NIV

What do you think of the mercy in chapter 3? The last verse in chapter 4 tells us something about it, but the key thing is that they repented. (Notice though in chapter 4 God doesn't want Jonah to be angry, but to learn a better way: forgiveness.)

TommySoda said:

Just look at the Old Testament there is no mercy. Those who are told they are going to die die (Davids son, Achan etc). The Old Testament seemed like a very much "one strike rule you're out". It seems God rarely spared lives besides the rare occasions Isreal/Judah repented. Moving to the New Testament I see cases like ananias and sapphira. It just seems like to me there's way more death than mercy/lives and judgment being spared. If anyone has any counter argument verses feel free but.

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Read Jonah.

Is it possible that you are simply seeing that God is not all-merciful, that He is severe, and that the way to eternal life is strait and narrow- while you wish the way were broader and that there were no hell to worry about? Ask yourself honestly if the issue here is that you want heaven without having to repent and do works meet for repentance like the Ninevites did and like all the righteous people in the Bible did- and which all the wicked people in the Bible refused to do. Could regard for sin in you be causing you to judge God as unreasonable for expecting that you (and all) repent or perish? Are you disregarding and despising the great mercy He does offer because you want mercy on easier terms, even though God's terms are totally right and reasonable? Please consider whether standing in judgment of God is something you are qualified to do and if there be not dark reasons behind your contention with Him.

TommySoda said:

Just look at the Old Testament there is no mercy. Those who are told they are going to die die (Davids son, Achan etc). The Old Testament seemed like a very much "one strike rule you're out". It seems God rarely spared lives besides the rare occasions Isreal/Judah repented. Moving to the New Testament I see cases like ananias and sapphira. It just seems like to me there's way more death than mercy/lives and judgment being spared. If anyone has any counter argument verses feel free but.

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This quotation from the near death experience account of former Skeptic Howard Storm may help.....

"I asked how God could let the Holocaust of World War II happen. We were transported to a railway station as a long train of freight cars was being unloaded of its human cargo. The guards were screaming and beating the people into submission. The people were Jewish men, women, and children. Exhausted from hunger and thirst, they were totally disoriented from the ordeal of being rounded up and sent on a long journey to an unknown destination. They believed that they were going to work camps, and that their submission to the brutality of the guards was the only way to survive.

We went to the area where the selection process was taking place and heard the guards talking about "the Angel Maker." We went to the place the guards were referring to as "the Angel Maker," which was a series of ovens. I saw piles of naked corpses being loaded into the ovens, and I began to cry. Jesus said to me, "These are the people God loves." Then he said, "Look up." Rising out of the smoke of the chimneys, I saw hundreds of people being met by thousands of angels taking them up into the sky. There was great joy in the faces of the people, and there appeared to be no trace of a memory of the horrendous suffering they had just endured. How ironic that the guards sarcastically called the ovens "the Angel Maker."

I asked how God could allow this to happen. They told me that this was not God's will. This was an abomination to God. God wants this never to happen again. This was the sacrifice of an innocent people to whom God had given the law to be an example, a light, to the rest of the world. This Holocaust was breaking God's heart. The anguish that Jesus was suffering at the slaughter of his people was too much for me to bear and I begged that we leave this place. I will never forget this: his anguish at this horror and what it represents. This was one of the low points in human history."

I asked, Why does God let things like this happen? They told me that God was very unhappy with the course of human history and was going to intervene to change the world. God had watched us sink to depths of depravity and cruelty at the very time that he was giving us the instruments to make the world a godlier world. God had intervened in the world many times before, but this time God was going to change the course of human events." (Howard Storm, My Descent Into Death, page 42,43)

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Thanks for posting this "to the point" thread. Certainly stirs us up to really think about what we believe. I happen to believe God is merciful. He sent His Son to take my place on the Cross. That, in and of itself, is enough for me. Everything else is just gravy.

Jeremiah 3: NKJV

11Then the LORD said to me, “Backsliding Israel has shown herself more righteous than treacherous Judah. 12Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say: ‘Return, backsliding Israel,’ says the LORD; ‘I will not cause My anger to fall on you. For I am merciful,’ says the LORD; ‘I will not remain angry forever. 13Only acknowledge your iniquity, That you have transgressed against the LORD your God, And have scattered your charms To alien deities under every green tree, And you have not obeyed My voice,’ says the LORD. 14“ Return, O backsliding children,” says the LORD; “for I am married to you. I will take you, one from a city and two from a family, and I will bring you to Zion. 15And I will give you shepherds according to My heart, who will feed you with knowledge and understanding.

TommySoda said:

Just look at the Old Testament there is no mercy. Those who are told they are going to die die (Davids son, Achan etc). The Old Testament seemed like a very much "one strike rule you're out". It seems God rarely spared lives besides the rare occasions Isreal/Judah repented. Moving to the New Testament I see cases like ananias and sapphira. It just seems like to me there's way more death than mercy/lives and judgment being spared. If anyone has any counter argument verses feel free but.

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The "law" has no mercy, while the new covenant does.

TommySoda said:

It was an interesting read and I do admit their judgment seemed final but God changed his mind and decided to show mercy. Got anymore?

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The next example that came to mind was one of the instances of someone asking God for mercy, to relent, and let the people live even though they had begun a profound evil (one which tends to lead to an even more serious wrong we learn later in Deuteronomy chapter 12, verses 29-31: the reason idol worship could not be tolerated wasn't only that it broke the relationship with God, and led the people away from Him, but additionally to the great evils that follow from it also).

Here's the fun example that came to mind first:

1When the people saw that Moses was so long in coming down from the mountain, they gathered around Aaron and said, “Come, make us gods who will go before us. As for this fellow Moses who brought us up out of Egypt, we don’t know what has happened to him.”

2Aaron answered them, “Take off the gold earrings that your wives, your sons and your daughters are wearing, and bring them to me.” 3So all the people took off their earrings and brought them to Aaron. 4He took what they handed him and made it into an idol cast in the shape of a calf, fashioning it with a tool. Then they said, “These are your gods, Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt.”

5When Aaron saw this, he built an altar in front of the calf and announced, “Tomorrow there will be a festival to the Lord.” 6So the next day the people rose early and sacrificed burnt offerings and presented fellowship offerings. Afterward they sat down to eat and drink and got up to indulge in revelry.

7Then the Lord said to Moses, “Go down, because your people, whom you brought up out of Egypt, have become corrupt. 8They have been quick to turn away from what I commanded them and have made themselves an idol cast in the shape of a calf. They have bowed down to it and sacrificed to it and have said, ‘These are your gods, Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt.’

9“I have seen these people,” the Lord said to Moses, “and they are a stiff-necked people. 10Now leave me alone so that my anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them. Then I will make you into a great nation.”

11But Moses sought the favor of the Lord his God. “Lord,” he said, “why should your anger burn against your people, whom you brought out of Egypt with great power and a mighty hand? 12Why should the Egyptians say, ‘It was with evil intent that he brought them out, to kill them in the mountains and to wipe them off the face of the earth’? Turn from your fierce anger; relent and do not bring disaster on your people. 13Remember your servants Abraham, Isaac and Israel, to whom you swore by your own self: ‘I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and I will give your descendants all this land I promised them, and it will be their inheritance forever.’ ” 14Then the Lord relented and did not bring on his people the disaster he had threatened.
Exodus 32 NIV


Here God is saying He will simply wipe them all out and make Moses himself the new start and turn his descendents into the great people he promised Abraham...

But Moses gains a respite, so that only those who will choose to continue after the golden calf, when Moses appears and puts the choice to them -- only those that don't repent and turn back to God will be destroyed. Those that do turn to God, leaving the golden calf, will be spared (and have only a lesser penalty even though it is one of the greatest of the evils they did).

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It's useful for many to learn more about the evils entailed in idol worship: leaving God, losing faith, losing the very purpose of life here: to be in relationship with God....and that's not all. Even this also:
31You shall not worship the LORD your God in that way, for every abominable thing that the LORD hates they have done for their gods, for they even burn their sons and their daughters in the fire to their gods.
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This exodus passage show other deep lessons, but here we are noticing first and wonderfully that because Moses pleads for the people, God spares those that turn back to Him, even though He was ready to destroy them all.

Tommy, the way I see it, God laid out the way it is in the law. He said what would cause their community to be blessed and what would cause it to fall apart. He said the blessings would overtake them if they were obedient to what He told Him would work (which boils down to loving God and loving your fellow man) but the curses would overtake them if they went their own way (not loving God and abusing their fellow man). And you'll see in that section that He told them clearly that they would fail. They didn't have to fail. Nobody tied them up to make them bow to the golden calves and get all involved in fornicating in the process. And time and again the nations around them and the Israelites themselves fell into that mess. They fell because they wanted to go that way. God wanted them to have a safe and functional community, not one that treated other people treacherously or burned their own kids or abused them as male and female temple prostitutes sold into that kind of lifestyle while they were yet children.

Jonah - the story is about a preacher who didn't want to go tell Ninevah that destruction was coming because Jonah knew that when they repented, God would relent. God isn't interested in randomly smiting people. But along with mercy, lovingkindness, and righteousness, God is just. There will be those who simply need to be out of the picture if the community is going to be safe. And there were a lot of them.

Who made Ananias and Saphira lie? They didn't have to give anything. What made Aaron's sons think they could approach this powerful God in any way they wanted when He clearly spelled out what had to be done for their safety. Aaron had seen Moses interacting with God. The whole community saw his face glowing even long after he left off speaking with God. They acted in a high-handed matter. Nope. That won't work.

God isn't how we imagine Him. He is WHO He is. He has to have those attributes and, yes, boundaries, respected. He loves us greatly and calls us to repent of our own way, offering us forgiveness and cleansing down into our very hearts, minds, and consciences.

I love the verse in Jeremiah 9.24: But let him that glories glory in this, that he understands and knows me, that I am the LORD which exercise loving kindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, said the LORD. What a perfect balance!

Keep seeking - it's there. I read the OT all the time and find example of mercy all through it. There was a time I asked like you did. Keep seeking - He promised an answer.