I'm a Christian but I can't get behind the notion that God is mericful

TommySoda · Oct 10, 2019

Just look at the Old Testament there is no mercy. Those who are told they are going to die die (Davids son, Achan etc). The Old Testament seemed like a very much "one strike rule you're out". It seems God rarely spared lives besides the rare occasions Isreal/Judah repented. Moving to the New Testament I see cases like ananias and sapphira. It just seems like to me there's way more death than mercy/lives and judgment being spared. If anyone has any counter argument verses feel free but.

2PhiloVoid · Oct 10, 2019

TommySoda said:
Just look at the Old Testament there is no mercy. Those who are told they are going to die die (Davids son, Achan etc). The Old Testament seemed like a very much "one strike rule you're out". It seems God rarely spared lives besides the rare occasions Isreal/Judah repented. Moving to the New Testament I see cases like ananias and sapphira. It just seems like to me there's way more death than mercy/lives and judgment being spared. If anyone has any counter argument verses feel free but.

The end of the 2nd commandment, maybe? :dontcare:

... I mean, mercy and grace are for those who wake up and give a darn. But we seem to live in a day and age where because so many live corrupted lives, they want an all pervasive kind of mercy that is really a conflation with "permissiveness," and this is where some of the trouble lies in "seeing" that God is merciful. He is 'full of mercy and grace," but we have to enter the Covenant (New) in order to gain the benefits of His full grace and mercy.

It's kind of like when you go to the gas pump.....they [the cashiers] actually expect us to have to 'pay' our side of the exchange so we can then give our lives some momentum via our vehicle using 'their gas pump.'

TommySoda · Oct 10, 2019

2PhiloVoid said:
The end of the 2nd commandment, maybe? ... I mean, mercy and grace are for those who wake up and give a darn. But we seem to live in a day and age wear because so many live corrupted lives, they want an all pervasive kind of mercy that is really a conflation with "permissiveness," and this is where some of the trouble lies in "seeing" that God is merciful. He is, but we have to enter the Covenant (New) in order to gain the benefits of His full grace and mercy.

It's kind of like when you go to the gas pump.....they [the cashiers] actually expect us to have to 'pay' our side of the exchange so we can then give our lives some momentum via our vehicle using 'their gas pump.'

I mean the God of the Bible hasn't given anyone a reason to me personally a reason to believe he's merciful. Yeah there are verses claiming he's merciful but he seems like rarely ever executes mercy and just continues with death/judgment.

2PhiloVoid · Oct 10, 2019

TommySoda said:
I mean the God of the Bible hasn't given anyone a reason to me personally a reason to believe he's merciful. Yeah there are verses claiming he's merciful but he seems like rarely ever executes mercy and just continues with death/judgment.

What is your definition of "mercy"? It doesn't mean a free hand out ... and I'm going to assume that isn't what you mean. Maybe some of the problem is that you're envisioning what grace and mercy "are" by your own intuitions rather than seeing in the Bible what is actually 'meant' by mercy and grace.

Is it perhaps instead that it isn't grace and mercy you're really concerned with, but rather that you're wrestling with a feeling of not yet being "blessed"? [I'm just asking so as to carry the conversation a constructive manner: this isn't a test question, Sis!

]

Blade · Oct 10, 2019

We really need to study when these questions pop up.. I mean WE. I get the some questions. What is written on our hearts right now. Where God said I will write my laws on their hearts. They they in the OT have this?

OT.. this is the God that said..Israel would sin.. cry out.. God comes forgives..they go right back to sinning. He tells it one time like.. she Israel again is selling her self to others and theres a line now. So this GOD stands in line.. and then buys her back.

So many times MAN spoke..but out right lied.. didn't want Him. Telling this GOD they can do themselfs.No matter how many times He tried to show them.. and us now.. we can't ever do this on our own with out Him. And to forget there are demons, fallen angels in this also. To know ALL this started from a LIE. This is NOT the way HE wanted it to go. But.. He has had a plan before the world was. Christ coming to take the sin of the world. Thats PAST NOW & FUTURE. He didn't die for just US. But for all that have lived and died.

Thats the mercy grace of this God.

Anthony2019 · Oct 10, 2019

When I try to make sense of God's mercy, I look at the most kind and virtuous person I know that has ever lived. If that is a standard I would like to emulate, then how infinitely greater is the standard of our omniscient, omnipotent God who created the universe.

I am always reminded of the words of that old hymn:-
Fair are the meadows, fairer still the woodlands,
Robed in the blooming garb of spring;
Jesus is fairer, Jesus is purer,
Who makes the woeful heart to sing.

I am convinced that none of us will ever be able to fully fathom out the length and depth of God's mercy and the love that passes all understanding (Ephesians 3:19).

TommySoda · Oct 10, 2019

2PhiloVoid said:
What is your definition of "mercy"? It doesn't mean a free hand out ... and I'm going to assume that isn't what you mean. Maybe some of the problem is that you're envisioning what grace and mercy "are" by your own intuitions rather than seeing in the Bible what is actually 'meant' by mercy and grace.

Is it perhaps instead that it isn't grace and mercy you're really concerned with, but rather that you're wrestling with a feeling of not yet being "blessed"? [I'm just asking so as to carry the conversation a constructive manner: this isn't a test question, Sis! ]

I would define mercy as not getting the punishment you deserve. It doesn't exactly mean getting off scott free but maybe not getting the full 100% wrath you're going to. I mean what's the point in calling God merciful is everyone got what they deserved in the Bible?

Dave G. · Oct 10, 2019

Abraham was deemed righteous by God. Why ? Because He agreed with Him. David committed adultery and murder but was forgiven and called a man after God's own heart. Why ? Because he confessed it to God and repented and agreed with God. And these things were all in a time under the law, yet grace and mercy were poured out. By the law, these men would have been killed.

Jesus saved the woman with the issue of blood. Why ? Because she believe enough to have faith that to just touch His robe would heal her and it did. That's grace and mercy. Jesus went to the cross and died an excruciating death for you that you might be eternally save. Why ? Because He loves you and you were destined to hell without Him. God gave His only begotten son that no one who believe in Him should perish. That's mercy and grace.

We need to agree with God's ways, then not only is there mercy and grace but all spiritual blessings in heavenly places. I don't know whose teaching you from scripture but you need a new teacher. Amen

Rebecca4Christ · Oct 10, 2019

DaveG and I posted at basically the same time,so please disregard this post.

Have you considered the cross?

eleos1954 · Oct 10, 2019

TommySoda said:
Just look at the Old Testament there is no mercy. Those who are told they are going to die die (Davids son, Achan etc). The Old Testament seemed like a very much "one strike rule you're out". It seems God rarely spared lives besides the rare occasions Isreal/Judah repented. Moving to the New Testament I see cases like ananias and sapphira. It just seems like to me there's way more death than mercy/lives and judgment being spared. If anyone has any counter argument verses feel free but.

Best to take the bible as a whole. The OT covers a lot of history ... and a lot of that history was quite barbaric. Very few trying ... or even considering living a "godly life". Israel itself was also very disobedient (God corrects those He loves as well) and many times intervened to protect the lineage from which our Lord would come from.

If God was not indeed merciful we would not have increased population ... so obviously .... more mercy shown than not.

Jesus (God incarnate) willingly gave his life to die for everyone that they have a way to be reconciled with Him.

How much more mercy is there than that?

Psalm 103:4
Who redeems your life from the pit, who crowns you with steadfast love and mercy,

ajcarey · Oct 10, 2019

God's goodness and severity are seen in the Bible from Genesis to Revelation. We are told to behold both the goodness and severity of God in Romans 11:22; and the same is said in principle one way or the other from the beginning to the end of the Bible. One of the greatest examples of God's mercy is in the Old Testament when He spared Nineveh. Jesus gave the Ninevites as an example of true repentance in Matthew chapter 12 and you only need to read the short Book of Jonah to see why. The conditions for receiving mercy from God and escaping His judgment have never changed. God is no respecter of persons and everything He has ever done has been appropriate. He is unchanging and when He sees fit to make an example of someone to prove to the rest of mankind that He is to be feared and not mocked, then that is His call- His call which was not capricious and arbitrary, but is fitting based on His perfect wisdom and knowledge. No one has ever been judged and condemned to hell that did not have ample opportunity to repent towards their Righteous Creator and obtain His mercy through the blood of His Son (even before Christ came in the flesh God forgave repentant people based on the atonement Christ would one day accomplish).

Psalm 103:11-18: "11 For as the heaven is high above the earth, so great is his mercy toward them that fear him. 12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us. 13 Like as a father pitieth his children, so the Lord pitieth them that fear him. 14 For he knoweth our frame; he remembereth that we are dust. 15 As for man, his days are as grass: as a flower of the field, so he flourisheth. 16 For the wind passeth over it, and it is gone; and the place thereof shall know it no more. 17 But the mercy of the Lord is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's children; 18 To such as keep his covenant, and to those that remember his commandments to do them."

TommySoda · Oct 10, 2019

Dave G. said:
Abraham was deemed righteous by God. Why ? Because He agreed with Him. David committed adultery and murder but was forgiven and called a man after God's own heart. Why ? Because he confessed it to God and repented and agreed with God. And these things were all in a time under the law, yet grace and mercy were poured out. By the law, these men would have been killed.

Jesus saved the woman with the issue of blood. Why ? Because she believe enough to have faith that to just touch His robe would heal her and it did. That's grace and mercy. Jesus went to the cross and died an excruciating death for you that you might be eternally save. Why ? Because He loves you and you were destined to hell without Him. God gave His only begotten son that no one who believe in Him should perish. That's mercy and grace.

We need to agree with God's ways, then not only is there mercy and grace but all spiritual blessings in heavenly places. I don't know whose teaching you from scripture but you need a new teacher. Amen

Nobody is teaching me anything. David's son also died because of his sin and God punished his other children after adultery/murder. You might want to include the full story.

Aussie Pete · Oct 10, 2019

TommySoda said:
Just look at the Old Testament there is no mercy. Those who are told they are going to die die (Davids son, Achan etc). The Old Testament seemed like a very much "one strike rule you're out". It seems God rarely spared lives besides the rare occasions Isreal/Judah repented. Moving to the New Testament I see cases like ananias and sapphira. It just seems like to me there's way more death than mercy/lives and judgment being spared. If anyone has any counter argument verses feel free but.

David was a murdering adulterer. God spared his life and Bathsheba was the mother of Solomon, the future king.
You need to know the background to God's dealings with Israel. They rejected God's offer to come close to Him. They preferred to go through Moses. God made a deal with Israel. Obey the Law and all will be well. Disobey and you will suffer terrible consequences. Israel agreed with God's covenant of law and said sure, we can and will keep the law. When they did, the nation was blessed abundantly. When they disobeyed God, the promised consequences came about. God's starting point is always blessing. Mankind does not want to conform to God's standards so he pays a terrible price.
God has no covenant relationship with the world. Satan controls the world and so the evils of the world are his responsibility.
God does not punish born again Christians. Jesus was punished for us already. There is discipline. It can be severe. It is better to suffer than to lose one's spiritual life or place in the kingdom. Many problems Christians suffer are self inflicted. God is indeed merciful. I asked God why He did not just destroy Adam and Eve and start over. He said that He preferred, out of love, mercy and grace, to give His Son to die so that we could live.
I had a similar dilemma. The answer was very simple. Ignore my own confusion and misunderstandings. Accept the truth that God gave up His only Son, because He loves me.

sdowney717 · Oct 10, 2019

TommySoda said:
Nobody is teaching me anything. David's son also died because of his sin and God punished his other children after adultery/murder. You might want to include the full story.

The mercy of God is that you are saved from the wrath of God, destruction in hell fire.
That destruction is coming on the whole world, The Lord is angry with the wicked everyday.
Jesus tells us He came so that we might have LIFE and have it more abundantly. The we there is for the believers in Christ whom God sent to save us from our sins and to give us everlasting life.

We are judged by God in this life so that we are not destroyed along with the world. And sometimes that disciplining and chastisement is tough love. And this life is just temporary the one we live in our flesh.

pdudgeon · Oct 10, 2019

TommySoda said:
I would define mercy as not getting the punishment you deserve. It doesn't exactly mean getting off scott free but maybe not getting the full 100% wrath you're going to. I mean what's the point in calling God merciful is everyone got what they deserved in the Bible?

ok so how about this?
way long ago God laid out His law to the Jews and told them what He expected of them. He spoke personally with Moses about it, and wrote down His expectations.

We still have Jews with us today, even though Christ came down from Heaven personally , taught in the synagogues, met with the leaders, and still they killed Him.

So no, not everyone in the Bible got what they deserved. The leaders of the Temple were not struck down dead by God. Those who whipped Him were not struck down dead. Those who taunted Him and dared Him to "Save Himself" were not struck dead. The soldiers who nailed Him to the cross were not slain by God.
This is Jesus, the Son of God that we are talking about, and yet God showed mercy.
He had the right to slay every one of them, but He didn't. And they recognized that fact.

So yes, that's God showing mercy.

TommySoda · Oct 10, 2019

Aussie Pete said:
David was a murdering adulterer. God spared his life and Bathsheba was the mother of Solomon, the future king.
You need to know the background to God's dealings with Israel. They rejected God's offer to come close to Him. They preferred to go through Moses. God made a deal with Israel. Obey the Law and all will be well. Disobey and you will suffer terrible consequences. Israel agreed with God's covenant of law and said sure, we can and will keep the law. When they did, the nation was blessed abundantly. When they disobeyed God, the promised consequences came about. God's starting point is always blessing. Mankind does not want to conform to God's standards so he pays a terrible price.
God has no covenant relationship with the world. Satan controls the world and so the evils of the world are his responsibility.
God does not punish born again Christians. Jesus was punished for us already. There is discipline. It can be severe. It is better to suffer than to lose one's spiritual life or place in the kingdom. Many problems Christians suffer are self inflicted. God is indeed merciful. I asked God why He did not just destroy Adam and Eve and start over. He said that He preferred, out of love, mercy and grace, to give His Son to die so that we could live.
I had a similar dilemma. The answer was very simple. Ignore my own confusion and misunderstandings. Accept the truth that God gave up His only Son, because He loves me.

I believe Jesus died for our sins as a way to get into Heaven but there's differently no proof that him dying stops us from getting punished. Anais and his wife was punished with death almost immediately for lying and sin. What is the difference between discipline and punishment? Discipline seems like a "nicer" word to cover punishment but ultimately its the same thing.

2PhiloVoid · Oct 10, 2019

TommySoda said:
I would define mercy as not getting the punishment you deserve. It doesn't exactly mean getting off scott free but maybe not getting the full 100% wrath you're going to. I mean what's the point in calling God merciful is everyone got what they deserved in the Bible?

Ok. That is, I think, a cogent response, but let me ask you this: in what way are you not right at this moment being given 'mercy'? Is some Christian somewhere giving you a difficult time? Or do you just feel that life is hard, in which case, it might not be that you're being punished for anything, but it's simply that like for everyone, life can be difficult?

Halbhh · Oct 10, 2019

TommySoda said:
Just look at the Old Testament there is no mercy. Those who are told they are going to die die (Davids son, Achan etc). The Old Testament seemed like a very much "one strike rule you're out". It seems God rarely spared lives besides the rare occasions Isreal/Judah repented. Moving to the New Testament I see cases like ananias and sapphira. It just seems like to me there's way more death than mercy/lives and judgment being spared. If anyone has any counter argument verses feel free but.

Reading fully through the old testament, you'd see God forgives and relents from punishing the sinful over and over, if they simply repent.

It's very merciful.

Ask if you want examples. There are a lot.

TommySoda · Oct 10, 2019

Halbhh said:
Reading fully through the old testament, you'd see God forgives and relents from punishing the sinful over and over, if they simply repent.

It's very merciful.

Got any examples or any verses because I got nothing

TommySoda · Oct 10, 2019

2PhiloVoid said:
Ok. That is, I think, a cogent response, but let me ask you this: in what way are you not right at this moment being given 'mercy'? Is some Christian somewhere giving you a difficult time? Or do you just feel that life is hard, in which case, it might not be that you're being punished for anything, but it's simply that like for everyone, life can be difficult?

Honestly none of that I've just recently read the Bible, digested and came to a conclusion. I was a christian who was always under the conclusion God was merciful. I'm not doubting anything in the Bible. It's just I can't believe he is merciful and literally every other story he's killing someone. I have yet to find one story that displays mercy besides maybe the Book of Jonah and some rare times where Judah/Israel repented.

I'm a Christian but I can't get behind the notion that God is mericful

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