THE TRUE "REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY/SUPERSESSIONISM" OF THE BIBLE

DO YOU AGREE WITH THE OP POST?


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Continuing...........

I. Justin Martyr taught "Replacement theology":

1. Summary of the Replacement theology of Justin Martyr:

a. "Christians are the True Israel" (Justin Martyr, Dialogues, Chapter CXXIII, 130 AD)

b. "As therefore from the one man Jacob, who was surnamed Israel, all your nation has been called Jacob and Israel; so we from Christ, who begat us unto God, (like Jacob, and Israel, and Judah, and Joseph, and David,) are called and are the true sons of God, and keep the commandments of Christ" (Justin Martyr, Dialogues, Chapter CXXIII, 130 AD)

c. "Christ is King of Israel, and Christians are the Israelitic Race. (Justin Martyr, Dialogues, Chapter CXXXV, 130 AD)

d. "As, therefore, Christ is the Israel and the Jacob, even so we, who have been quarried out from the bowels of Christ, are the true Israelitic race." (Justin Martyr, Dialogues, Chapter CXXXV, 130 AD)

e. "For all the nations are uncircumcised, and all the house of Israel are uncircumcised in their hearts.' ... But though a man be a Scythian or a Persian, if he has the knowledge of God and of His Christ, and keeps the everlasting righteous decrees, he is circumcised with the good and useful circumcision, and is a friend of God, and God rejoices in his gifts and offerings." (Justin Martyr, Dialogues, Chapter XXVIII, 130 AD)

2. Chapter CXXIII.—Ridiculous Interpretations of the Jews. Christians are the True Israel.

a. "As, therefore, all these latter prophecies refer to Christ and the nations, you should believe that the former refer to Him and them in like manner. For the proselytes have no need of a covenant, if, since there is one and the same law imposed on all that are circumcised, the Scripture speaks about them thus: 'And the stranger shall also be joined with them, and shall be joined to the house of Jacob; ' and because the proselyte, who is circumcised that he may have access to the people, becomes like one of themselves,477 while we who have been deemed worthy to be called a people are yet Gentiles, because we have not been circumcised. Besides, it is ridiculous for you to imagine that the eyes of the proselytes are to be opened while your own are not, and that you be understood as blind and deaf while they are enlightened. And it will be still more ridiculous for you, if you say that the law has been given to the nations, but you have not known it. For you would have stood in awe of God's wrath, and would not have been lawless, wandering sons; being much afraid of hearing God always say, 'Children in whom is no faith. And who are blind, but my servants? and deaf, but they that rule over them? And the servants of God have been made blind. You see often, but have not observed; your ears have been opened, and you have not heard.' Is God's commendation of you honourable? and is God's testimony seemly for His servants? You are not ashamed though you often hear these words. You do not tremble at God's threats, for you are a people foolish and hard-hearted. 'Therefore, behold, I will proceed to remove this people, 'saith the Lord; 'and I will remove them, and destroy the wisdom of the wise, and hide the understanding of the prudent.' Deservedly too: for you are neither wise nor prudent, but crafty and unscrupulous; wise only to do evil, but utterly incompetent to know the hidden counsel of God, or the faithful covenant of the Lord, or to find out the everlasting paths. 'Therefore, saith the Lord, I will raise up to Israel and to Judah the seed of men and the seed of beasts.' And by Isaiah He speaks thus concerning another Israel: 'In that day shall there be a third Israel among the Assyrians and the Egyptians, blessed in the land which the Lord of Sabaoth hath blessed, saying, blessed shall my people in Egypt and in Assyria be, and Israel mine inheritance.' Since then God blesses this people, and calls them Israel, and declares them to be His inheritance, how is it that you repent not of the deception you practise on yourselves, as if you alone were the Israel, and of execrating the people whom God has blessed? For when He speaks to Jerusalem and its environs, He thus added: 'And I will beget men upon you, even my people Israel; and they shall inherit you, and you shall be a possession for them; and you shall be no longer bereaved of them.' " "What, then?"says Trypho; "are you Israel? and speaks He such things of you?"If, indeed," I replied to him, "we had not entered into a lengthy discussion on these topics, I might have doubted whether you ask this question in ignorance; but since we have brought the matter to a conclusion by demonstration and with your assent, I do not believe that you are ignorant of what I have just said, or desire again mere contention, but that you are urging me to exhibit the same proof to these men." And in compliance with the assent expressed in his eyes, I continued: "Again in Isaiah, if you have ears to hear it, God, speaking of Christ in parable, calls Him Jacob and Israel. He speaks thus: 'Jacob is my servant, I will uphold Him; Israel is mine elect, I will put my Spirit upon Him, and He shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. He shall not strive, nor cry, neither shall any one hear His voice in the street: a bruised reed He shall not break, and smoking flax He shall not quench; but He shall bring forth judgment to truth: He shall shine, and shall not be broken till He have set judgment on the earth. And in His name shall the Gentiles trust.'485 As therefore from the one man Jacob, who was surnamed Israel, all your nation has been called Jacob and Israel; so we from Christ, who begat us unto God, like Jacob, and Israel, and Judah, and Joseph, and David, are called and are the true sons of God, and keep the commandments of Christ."

3. Chapter CXXXV.—Christ is King of Israel, and Christians are the Israelitic Race.

a. "And when Scripture says, 'I am the Lord God, the Holy One of Israel, who have made known Israel your King, ' will you not understand that truly Christ is the everlasting King? For you are aware that Jacob the son of Isaac was never a king. And therefore Scripture again, explaining to us, says what king is meant by Jacob and Israel: 'Jacob is my Servant, I will uphold Him; and Israel is mine Elect, my soul shall receive Him. I have given Him my Spirit; and He shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. He shall not cry, and His voice shall not be heard without. The bruised reed He shall not break, and the smoking flax He shall not quench, until He shall bring forth judgment to victory. He shall shine, and shall not be broken, until He set judgment on the earth. And in His name shall the Gentiles trust.' Then is it Jacob the patriarch in whom the Gentiles and yourselves shall trust? or is it not Christ? As, therefore, Christ is the Israel and the Jacob, even so we, who have been quarried out from the bowels of Christ, are the true Israelitic race. But let us attend rather to the very word: 'And I will bring forth, 'He says, 'the seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah: and it shall inherit My holy mountain; and Mine Elect and My servants shall possess the inheritance, and shall dwell there; and there shall be folds of flocks in the thicket, and the valley of Achor shall be a resting-place of cattle for the people who have sought Me. But as for you, who forsake Me, and forget My holy mountain, and prepare a table for demons, and fill out drink for the demon, I shall give you to the sword. You shall all fall with a slaughter; for I called you, and you hearkened not, and did evil before me, and did choose that wherein I delighted not.' Such are the words of Scripture; understand, therefore, that the seed of Jacob now referred to is something else, and not, as may be supposed, spoken of your people. For it is not possible for the seed of Jacob to leave an entrance for the descendants of Jacob, or for [God] to have accepted the very same persons whom He had reproached with unfitness for the inheritance, and promise it to them again; but as there the prophet says, 'And now, O house of Jacob, come and let us walk in the light of the Lord; for He has sent away His people, the house of Jacob, because their land was full, as at the first, of soothsayers and divinations; ' even so it is necessary for us here to observe that there are two seeds of Judah, and two races, as there are two houses of Jacob: the one begotten by blood and flesh, the other by faith and the Spirit.

4. Chapter CXL.—In Christ All are Free. The Jews Hope for Salvation in Vain Because They are Sons of Abraham.

a. "Hence also Jacob, as I remarked before, being himself a type of Christ, had married the two handmaids of his two free wives, and of them begat sons, for the purpose of indicating beforehand that Christ would receive even all those who amongst Japheth's race are descendants of Canaan, equally with the free, and would have the children fellow-heirs. And we are such; but you cannot comprehend this, because you cannot drink of the living fountain of God, but of broken cisterns which can hold no water, as the Scripture says. But they are cisterns broken, and holding no water, which your own teachers have digged, as the Scripture also expressly asserts, 'teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.' And besides, they beguile themselves and you, supposing that the everlasting kingdom will be assuredly given to those of the dispersion who are of Abraham after the flesh, although they be sinners, and faithless, and disobedient towards God, which the Scriptures have proved is not the case. For if so, Isaiah would never have said this: 'And unless the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we would have been like Sodom and Gomorrah.' And Ezekiel: 'Even if Noah, and Jacob, and Daniel were to pray for sons or daughters, their request should not be granted.' But neither shall the father perish for the son, nor the son for the father; but every one for his own sin, and each shall be saved for his own righteousness.539 And again Isaiah says: 'They shall look on the carcases of them that have transgressed: their worm shall not cease, and their fire shall not be quenched; and they shall be a spectacle to all flesh.' And our Lord, according to the will of Him that sent Him, who is the Father and Lord of all, would not have said, 'They shall come from the east, and from the west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness.' Furthermore, I have proved in what has preceded,543 that those who were foreknown to be unrighteous, whether men or angels, are not made wicked by God's fault, but each man by his own fault is what he will appear to be.

5. Chapter XXVIII.—True Righteousness is Obtained by Christ.

a. And Trypho replied, "We heard you adducing this consideration a little ago, and we have given it attention: for, to tell the truth, it is worthy of attention; and that answer which pleases most—namely, that so it seemed good to Him—does not satisfy me. For this is ever the shift to which those have recourse who are unable to answer the question."

b. Then I said, "Since I bring from the Scriptures and the facts themselves both the proofs and the inculcation of them, do not delay or hesitate to put faith in me, although I am an uncircumcised man; so short a time is left you in which to become proselytes. If Christ's coming shall have anticipated you, in vain you will repent, in vain you will weep; for He will not hear yon. 'Break up your fallow ground, 'Jeremiah has cried to the people, 'and sow not among thorns. Circumcise yourselves to the Lord, and circumcise the foreskin of your heart.' Do not sow, therefore, among thorns, and in untilled ground, whence you can have no fruit. Know Christ; and behold the fallow ground, good, good and fat, is in your hearts. 'For, behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will visit all them that are circumcised in their foreskins; Egypt, and Judah, and Edom, and the sons of Moab. For all the nations are uncircumcised, and all the house of Israel are uncircumcised in their hearts.'74 Do you see how that God does not mean this circumcision which is given for a sign? For it is of no use to the Egyptians, or the sons of Moab, or the sons of Edom. But though a man be a Scythian or a Persian, if he has the knowledge of God and of His Christ, and keeps the everlasting righteous decrees, he is circumcised with the good and useful circumcision, and is a friend of God, and God rejoices in his gifts and offerings. But I will lay before you, my friends, the very words of God, when He said to the people by Malachi, one of the twelve prophets, 'I have no pleasure in you, saith the Lord; and I shall not accept your sacrifices at your hands: for from the rising of the sun unto its setting My name shall be glorified among the Gentiles; and in every place a sacrifice is offered unto My name, even a pure sacrifice: for My name is honoured among the Gentiles, saith the Lord; but ye profane it.' And by David He said, 'A people whom I have not known, served Me; at the hearing of the ear they obeyed Me.'



While I do find this post informative from a historical perspective, Justin Martyr does not necessarily represent the doctrines and views of everyone of his generation, nor does his doctrine necessarily represent all that was taught by the Apostles which is why I look to the text of scripture as my final authority and to no other source and it is against the text of scripture to which all teachings are compared.

Any teachings that are found inconsistent with the full counsel of scripture on any given subject that the scripture teaches on, needs to be rejected and denounced as a false doctrine but the reason why there are so many diverse doctrines in the Church today is because of the failure of the Church throughout its history to look to the scriptures alone for doctrine and to rely solely on the sufficiency thereof.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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The actual contrast is drawn between Mt. Sinai where the law was given and the temporal Old Covenant established and the heavenly Jerusalem that is to come which is representative of the everlasting New Covenant in Christ. Jerusalem is tied to Mt. Sinai simply because they continue to enslave themselves to an obsolete covenant that was not meant to be eternal, thinking that they can still obtain by following the law what we have already obtained in Christ which is salvation and restored fellowship with God.
And why 1st century Mt Sinai is shown being cast into the sea in 70AD as shown in Revelation 8:8...........:ebil:

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
Proof that Matthew 24 was fully fulfilled in 70 AD!
Also see:
Rapture refuted

Faith, Mountain, and Sea Matt 21:21/Mark 11:3

Matthew 21:21
Yet Jesus answering said to them, "amen I am saying to ye, if ever ye may be having Faith, and no ye may be doubting<1252>, not only the of the fig-tree<4808> ye shall be doing,
but even-ever to this Mountain ye may saying, 'Be being lifted up!<142> and be being cast!<906> into the Sea', it shall be becoming"; [Revelation 8:8]

Hebrews 12:
18 For you have not come to a mountain that might be touched, and that burned with fire, and to blackness, darkness, storm,
19 the sound of a trumpet,
and the voice of words; which those who heard it begged that not one more word should be spoken to them,

Revelation 8:8 And the second messenger trumpets, and as it were a great Mountain with fire burning was cast into the Sea, and the third of the sea became blood,
===========================
Hebrews 12: 22 But ye have come to Mount Zion, and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable multitudes of angels,

Rev 14:1
Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having[ His Father's name written on their foreheads.



Hebrews 12:22
But you have come<προσ-εληλύθατε 4334> to Mount Zion, and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable multitudes of angels,
 
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nolidad

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Please abide by the rules of CF for this Board........
Statement of Purpose - Eschatology Forum Statement of Purpose
Eschatology Forum Statement of Purpose

=====================================

Note: if you post, please vote in the poll.......thanks

Being a Preterist non-Dispensationalist Futurist, I tend to agree with much/most of the site shown below.......

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
Also see: Rapture refuted

Replacement Theology, supersessionism: Christians are God's Jews. The church is true Israel.

"Replacement theology" or "supersessionism" is the true gospel of Jesus Christ.

John Hagee and others who oppose "replacement theology" are rank false teachers whom apostle Paul condemns as "fallen from grace, severed from Christ". (Gal 4:10; 5:4; Rom 7:1-7; Jer 31:31 + Heb 8:6-13)


DON'T CALL US ANTI-SEMENTIC

The vast majority of churches believe and teach "replacement theology". Churches that oppose "replacement theology" including John Hagee, are in the minority. Those who believe in Replacement Theology love the state of Israel and are among her strongest supporters!

Just because we do not feel modern Israel is any more special in the eyes of God than Canada or the USA, we defend and support the only democracy in the Middle east and consider Israel our primary ally in the world of Islamic Nuclear Jihad and terrorism.
We believe that Israel was granted legal title to the historic promised land through the Balfour Declaration (1917) and the League of Nations "Mandate for Palestine" of December 1922. We believe that "Palestinians" is a fictitious title for a "people" that never existed in history, except for the nation from which it owes its origin: Philistines (ie. Goliath) who are a long extinct nation. We do not believe Israel is an occupier or "Apartheid State".
We are neither "far-left" or "progressive" and condemn "Israel Apartheid Week" as a delusional pack of lies. We do not believe Israel is a "cursed nation". We oppose those who boycott Israel and prefer Israeli made products over anything made in Muslim countries because of their high quality. In fact, we admire and applaud how well Israel treats those in Gaza and the West Bank, given the number of terrorist attacks Muslims launch upon the peace loving, hard-working civilian Jewish population.

We reject the "two state solution" of Dividing Israel up into a militarily indefensible nation because the Koran is the problem. Those living in the West Bank and Gaza Strip already have the "two state solution" provided for in the "Mandate for Palestine"… the entire nation of "Jordan"! SO DON'T CALL US ANTI-SEMETIC. It makes you look dumb and uninformed.

Like all Christians we believe all Jews, Muslims and unbelievers are lost until they believe Jesus rose from the dead, repented and are immersed in water for the remission of their sins… and by the way, Jesus was a Jew NOT a Palestinian.

Jesus was born a Jew and lived as a Jew, keeping the Law of Moses perfect and sinless. IT ANGERS US THAT JEWS REFUSE TO ACTUALLY READ THE NEW TESTAMENT. But we still love Israel and support her as a democratic nation!
========================
TO BE CONTINUED


So you tell people to abide by the rules then you dare attack John Hagee and call him a false brother? Well so much for abiding by the rules!

I asked you once before to answer things a s a preterist you believe have already occurred and you have failed to do so!

Let us all hope you will this time.

1. What was the mark of the beast aqnd why has no history written about it?
2. Who was the beast.
3. Who was the "false prophet"/
4. When did an angel fly around either the world/Roman Empire/ or Israel warning people no to take the mark?
5. Who was the abomination of desolation who stood in the holy place?
6. What historic events marked the fulfilments of the seals?
7. What historic events marked the fulfilment of the 7 trumpets?
8. What historic events marked the fulfilment of the bowl judgments?
9. Has Jesus already vanquished the beast or is he still roaming around?

These are serios questions. I hope you will provide serious answers.

Also why Is Israel back in her land in unbelief after being scattered to the four corners of the earth as prophesied.

Why are they back in unbelief as prophesied?

When did the Gog -Magog invasion take place?
 
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The word “supersessionism” describes the influential idea that Christians (the people of “the new covenant”) have replaced Jews (the people of “the old covenant”) as the people of God. One early example of supersessionism appears in the Epistle of Barnabas, most probably written between the fall of the Second Temple (70 C.E.) and the second Jewish revolt against the Romans (135 C.E.):

These things [the Jewish cult] then he abolished in order that the new law of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is without the yoke of necessity, might have its oblation not made by man. (Epistle of Bar 2:6)


The Epistle of Barnabas may have historical value, but remember that it is not part of inspired scripture. Nevertheless, the cited passage does not appear to speak of replacing one people with another but rather elements of one covenant with another.


Heb 8:9 differs significantly from Jer 31:31-32 because it quotes a translation of the Hebrew Bible into Greek. This translation, known as the Septuagint, describes a relationship that has been terminated: God seeks a divorce. In the Hebrew text, God wants to continue the relationship.
Both the Septuagint and Hebrews use the Greek verb amelein, meaning “to ignore,” “not to care about,” “to abandon.” In the Hebrew Bible, however, the verb is ba‘al, which can be translated as “to be a husband,” “to be faithful,” “to be the Lord.”

The best explanation of the difference between the Hebrew and Greek texts is that either the translators of the Septuagint were translating from a Hebrew manuscript that contained a different word or that the translators misread the manuscript that they were reading—the translator might have misread ba‘al as the word ga‘al (“to despise,” “to abandon”).

If Hebrews is based on ga‘al, then those who use Heb 8:9 as a cornerstone of their theology are silently claiming that the Hebrew text in Jer 31:31-32 is inferior to the text of the Septuagint.
It is not a question of being “biblical” or “unbiblical” but rather a choice between two biblical manuscript traditions. Hence, readers should ask themselves whether ba‘al (“to be faithful”) or ga‘al (“to despise”) best represents how the God of Israel is described in the biblical texts in general and in Jeremiah in particular.


In any case, the cited passage from Hebrews makes clear that God still wants to continue His relationship with Israel and that the suppressionists have twisted the passage to make it sound as though God wants nothing more to do with Israel, but a plain sense reading the text says nothing of the sort and any notion of such is placed in the past tense and not in the present tense.

But for the sake of accuracy, I place more faith in the primary language (Hebrew) in which the foundational scripture (Jer. 31:31-32) upon which Hebrews 8:8-9 rests, was originally written, rather than the secondary language. Accuracy is why Bible translators have relied on Hebrew manuscripts in their translation of Old Testament scriptures rather than the Septuagint.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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So you tell people to abide by the rules then you dare attack John Hagee and call him a false brother? Well so much for abiding by the rules!
I personally never called Hagee or anyone else a false brother.

However, my bro Paul mentioned being in danger from false brothers in 2 Corin 26....

John 8:44
`Ye out of a father the Devil are
and the desires/epiqumiaV <1939> of the father of ye, ye are willing to be doing.

Luke 21:12
“But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons<5438>.
You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name’s sake.

2 Corinthians 11
22 Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they descendants of Abraham? So am I. 23 Are they servants of Christ? I am speaking like I am out of my mind, but I am so much more:
in harder labor,
in more imprisonments,[Revelation 2:10]
in worse beatings,
in frequent danger of death.
24 By Judeans five times forty minus one.
25 Three times I was beaten with rods,
once I was stoned,
three times I was shipwrecked. I spent a night and a day in the open sea.
26 In my frequent journeys, I have been in dangers of rivers
and to dangers of bandits,
in dangers from fellow race,
from the Gentiles,
in city and in wilderness,
in danger on the sea
and to dangers in false brothers,
27 in labor and toil and often without sleep,
in hunger and thirst,
and often without food, in cold and exposure.
==================================
Revelation 2:10 "tribulation 10 days"

Revelation 2:10
No yet one thou be fearing! which-things thou are being about to be suffering
Behold! the Devil is being about to be casting ye into a prison<5438> that ye may be being tried. [John 8:44 Luke 21:12 2 Corinthians 11:22]
And ye shall be having Tribulation<2347> of ten days,
Be thou becoming faithful until death! and I shall be giving to thee the crown of the life.
 
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And why 1st century Mt Sinai is shown being cast into the sea in 70AD as shown in Revelation 8:8...........:ebil:


How could Mt. Sinai destroy a third of all life in the sea and a third of the ships in the vicinity of the sea that is turned to blood? This does not appear to be an act of redemption and liberation but a destructive act.
 
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.[/QUOTE]
Please vote in the poll........

From a premill futurist view.........including debates.....

Supersessionism Archives | ESCHATOS MINISTRIES

Supersessionism
Why Premillennial Theology Matters – Ep. 140
July 16, 2019 by Dr. Alan E. Kurschner

The ‘Lost Tribes of Israel’ and the 144,000 in Revelation 7:1–8 (Video)


July 9, 2018 by Dr. Alan E. Kurschner


In the 1800s there were theologians who mocked the notion that Israel would one day be gathered and become a nation again. This presupposition of limiting God led to them spiritualizing many Bible prophecy passages in the Bible. These same type of replacement theologians today view the passage of the Israelite 144,000 in Revelation 7:1–8 […]


These same type of replacement theologians today view the passage of the Israelite 144,000 in Revelation 7:1–8 within the same spiritualizing hermeneutic. Their most-often cited objection to seeing this passage being fulfilled literally in twelve tribes of Israel is that they are now “lost” to us after more than two millennia. So they spiritualize the 144,000 making them.. . . you guessed it, the Church.


The problem is that these theologians, once again, limit God’s knowledge and power. They may have been lost to us, but not to God, who is sovereign over all things. It has been known to us in the West for a couple of decades or more that there are pockets of people groups scattered namely in the East and Middle East who claim to be part of the northern tribes of Israel who were exiled in 722 BC. There are many documented accounts supporting their Jewish customs, beliefs, and practices.
=============================
to be continued

Continued...............

‘How could God have explained [the land promise] any more clearly?’

July 5, 2018 by Dr. Alan E. Kurschner

Recently, I posted a debate on replacement theology between Michael Brown and Munther Isaac with Gary Burge as the moderator. There was one exchange in the debate toward the end that is worth the price of the debate. Michael Brown asked a very honest and direct question on the land promise that goes to the heart of the debate. Munther Issac avoided answering this question. So Brown asked again . . . Issac then revealed how he changes his hermeneutic based on whether you are talking about the Old Testament or the New Testament. He believes God originally made the promise of physical land, but in so many words he thinks God changed that promise to spiritual fulfillment. It reveals the incredible inconsistent and flawed hermeneutic that supersessionists operate from. The clip on the land promise begins at 50:17, but you can go back a bit earlier and hear the larger discussion..............



I do give you credit for seeking to approach the Premil/Preterist conflict from an objective stand point and while I may be at odds with your Preterist leanings, which includes even Partial Preterism, for reasons you already know, I still find some of the sources to which you appeal informative from a historical standpoint.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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How could Mt. Sinai destroy a third of all life in the sea and a third of the ships in the vicinity of the sea that is turned to blood? This does not appear to be an act of redemption and liberation but a destructive act.
Destructive and with vengeance on 1st century Jerusalem as prophecied........

Daniel 12:1 and Luke 21 same event?
The word "TRIBULATION" does not occur in Luke's Gospel.


Daniel 12:1
"And in that time/season Michael shall stand-up, the great chief prince, the one standing over sons of thy people. And becomes a time of distress<06869>, which not occurred since to become of a nation until that time. And in that time, thy people escape<4422>, everyone being found written in the scroll. [Luke 21:23-36]

Luke 21:
23 “But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people.

36 “Yet be being vigilant/watching in every season, beseeching that ye should be being strong to be escaping<1628> all these, the being about to be becoming, and to stand before the Son of the Man.

1 Thessalonians 5:3
For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape<1628>.

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
Proof that Matthew 24 was fully fulfilled in 70 AD!
Also see:
Rapture refuted

The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover ; and it is deserving of the very particular attention of the reader, that this was the anniversary of that memorable period in which the Jews crucified their Messiah ! At this season multitudes came up from all the surrounding country, and from distant parts, to keep the festival. How suitable and how kind, then, was the prophetic admonition of our LORD, and how clearly he into futurity when he said "Let not them that are in the countries enter into Jerusalem." Luke xxi. 21.

Nevertheless, the city was at this time crowded with Jewish strangers, and foreigners from all parts, so that the whole nation may be considered as having been shut up in one prison, preparatory to the execution of the Divine vengeance;
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Revelation 19:2 “For true and righteous are His judgments, because He has judged the great harlot who corrupted the earth with her fornication;
and He has avenged<1556> on her the blood of His servants shed by her.”
 
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BABerean2

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Israel is always in reference to a nation and people. It is not applied in any other way,

Act 2:36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"
Act 2:38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Act 2:39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."
Act 2:40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation."
Act 2:41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.


Israel is not about a piece of land, or about a bloodline, after the verse below. He is the ultimate fulfillment of Israel.
Read Luke 24:25-27 to see it in His own words.


Mat 1:1 The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the Son of David, the Son of Abraham:

.
 
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Justin Martyr does not necessarily represent the doctrines and views of everyone of his generation

Whose doctrines and views did he not represent?


"This, then, is a clear point, that those who disallow his salvation, and frame the idea of another God besides Him who made the promise to Abraham, are outside the kingdom of God, and are disinherited from [the gift of] incorruption, setting at naught and blaspheming God, who introduces, through Jesus Christ, Abraham to the kingdom of heaven, and his seed, that is, the Church, upon which also is conferred the adoption and the inheritance promised to Abraham."

Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book 4, Chapter 8, Paragraph 1

"Now I have shown a short time ago that the church is the seed of Abraham..."

Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book 5, Chapter 34, Paragraph 1

which is why I look to the text of scripture as my final authority

As did the historical defenders of the true faith for eighteen centuries.

Why do the declarations of dispensational modernism disagree with theirs?
 
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Destructive and with vengeance on 1st century Jerusalem as prophecied........

I do not read about a third of the sea turning to blood in the first century nor do I read anything about a third of all the ships in the ocean being destroyed or a third of all the sea life perishing either in that generation.
 
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Israel is not about a piece of land, or about a bloodline, after the verse below. He is the ultimate fulfillment of Israel.
Read Luke 24:25-27 to see it in His own words.


Israel is descended from a bloodline and given a certain amount of land for their inheritance and for Jesus to be the ultimate fulfillment of Israel, He must also bring to pass everything concerning them which also includes permanent land restoration, (Ezek. 37:25, Am. 9:15) an everlasting existence, (Jer. 30:11, 31:35-37, 33:20-26) their spiritual transformation, (Rom. 11:26) full restoration of blessings, (Deut. 30:1-10) and status of prominence above all other nations. (Is. 54:3, Zech. 8:19-23)
 
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Whose doctrines and views did he not represent?


"This, then, is a clear point, that those who disallow his salvation, and frame the idea of another God besides Him who made the promise to Abraham, are outside the kingdom of God, and are disinherited from [the gift of] incorruption, setting at naught and blaspheming God, who introduces, through Jesus Christ, Abraham to the kingdom of heaven, and his seed, that is, the Church, upon which also is conferred the adoption and the inheritance promised to Abraham."

Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book 4, Chapter 8, Paragraph 1

"Now I have shown a short time ago that the church is the seed of Abraham..."

Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book 5, Chapter 34, Paragraph 1


The intended point was that in order to determine what the established consensus, if any, was on any given doctrine in any generation, the stated positions of many people within the Church would have to be examined, not just one or even two and while that would be a worthy undertaking, it would be a time consuming process.


As did the historical defenders of the true faith for eighteen centuries.
Why do the declarations of dispensational modernism disagree with theirs?


Even those known to be historical defenders of the faith did not agree with one another regarding certain doctrines and that the firm establishment and mainstream acceptance of what is identified as Preterist doctrine was accredited to Origen and to a greater extent Augustine, gives clear indication that doctrines similar to those associated with Dispensationalism were still accepted and taught by many within the Church beforehand. Dispensationalism is nothing new nor recent within Church history but was suppressed and out of the mainstream for several centuries.
 
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BABerean2

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Israel is descended from a bloodline and given a certain amount of land for their inheritance and for Jesus to be the ultimate fulfillment of Israel, He must also bring to pass everything concerning them which also includes permanent land restoration, (Ezek. 37:25, Am. 9:15) an everlasting existence, (Jer. 30:11, 31:35-37, 33:20-26) their spiritual transformation, (Rom. 11:26) full restoration of blessings, (Deut. 30:1-10) and status of prominence above all other nations. (Is. 54:3, Zech. 8:19-23)

Can you explain to us how there will be a permanent land restoration on this earth, based on 2 Peter 3:10-13?

Do you believe the author of the Book of Hebrews was confused about the land promise in Hebrews 11:15-16?

.
 
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Can you explain to us how there will be a permanent land restoration on this earth, based on 2 Peter 3:10-13?

Do you believe the author of the Book of Hebrews was confused about the land promise in Hebrews 11:15-16?

.


You must think God to be of limited power since you do not believe that He is able to preserve a people and even their land through the coming fire or that He is capable of changing the corruptible into the incorruptible and thus make it a part of the better country that we all long for.
 
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You must think God to be of limited power since you do not believe that He is able to preserve a people and even their land through the coming fire or that He is capable of changing the corruptible into the incorruptible and thus make it a part of the better country that we all long for.


When God tells Peter through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit that this earth is going to "melt", and "dissolve", and be replaced by a New Heavens, and a New Earth in 2 Peter 3:10-13, I believe what God said.

When the author of the Book of Hebrews through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit reveals the land promise to the Old Testament Saints in Hebrews 11:15-16, I believe what God said.

I do not have to twist, or ignore what God said to make Dispensational Theology work.

.
 
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When God tells Peter through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit that this earth is going to "melt", and "dissolve", and be replaced by a New Heavens, and a New Earth in 2 Peter 3:10-13, I believe what God said.

When the author of the Book of Hebrews through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit reveals the land promise to the Old Testament Saints in Hebrews 11:15-16, I believe what God said.

I do not have to twist, or ignore what God said to make Dispensational Theology work.

.


But Preterism of any shade requires a God of limited power to make its theology work and also requires ignoring the full counsel of scripture.
 
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But Preterism of any shade requires a God of limited power to make its theology work and also requires ignoring the full counsel of scripture.
Futurism also has many shades and flavors.............
There are also sub boards on GT for both Dispyism and CT, and not sure why some of the threads on this board aren't instead placed on these boards.........

Dispensationalism

Dispensationalism

Covenant Theology

Covenant Theology
Discussion of theological covenants.
=====================================
That aside, this website is perhaps one of the most comprehensive sites concerning the various forms ofPreterism, but it also has studies on the various forms of Futurism, including Dispenstationalism...

The Preterist Archive of Realized Eschatology

Dispensationalism Study Archive

A comprehensive list of all articles and books at PreteristArchive.com which explore the doctrines of Dispensational Futurism. Included are works supportive and critical of the view. Note the header image for the nature of the post’s content. Posts are listed alphabetically according to the first name of the author.

Dispensationalism Study Archive @ PreteristArchive.com - The Internet's Only Balanced Look at Preterism

Pro-Dispensationalism | Dispensationalist Dementia
FOR QUESTIONS ON WHETHER EXPLORING THESE ISSUES IS ANTI-SEMITISM, REFER TO THE "ANTISEMITISM" ARCHIVE

STUDY ARCHIVES: Amillennialism | Apocalyptic | Christian Zionism | Dispensationalism | Eschatology | Hermeneutics | Historicism | Idealism | Millennial Reign of Christ | Preterism | New Covenant Theology | Postmillennialism | Premillennialism | Pre-Tribulational Rapture | Reconstructionism | "Seventy Weeks" | Parousia | Universalism | J.N. Darby | Jerry Falwell | Thomas Ice | Tim LaHaye | Hal Lindsey | C.I. Scofield | Jack and Rexella Van Impe | John F. Walvoord | Christian Zionism and Salvation for the Jews | Philip Mauro: The Gospel of the Kingdom & The Hope of Israel
===================
Dispensationalism – The Preterist Archive of Realized Eschatology

AD70 Dispensationalism – The Preterist Archive of Realized Eschatology

I need now only say, all these things have been done : the old and elementary system passed away with a great noise : all these predicted empires have actually fallen, and the new kingdom, the new heaven and earth, the new Jerusalem — all of which were to descend from God, to be formed by His power, have been realized on earth. - Samuel Lee

Dispensationalist Dementia / Doomsday Dispensationalism Study Archive @ PreteristArchive.com, The Internet's Only Balanced Look at Preterism

Pro-Dispensationalism | Dispensationalist Dementia
FOR QUESTIONS ON WHETHER EXPLORING THESE ISSUES IS ANTI-SEMITISM, REFER TO THE "ANTISEMITISM" ARCHIVE

Are you a Christian Zionist? Take the litmus test: "Do you believe that the modern state of Israel is a fulfillment of Bible prophecy?"
Christian Zionism: The Tragedy and The Turning | How Evangelicals Became Israel's Best Friend

Paige Patterson, president of Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary and a dispensational premillennialist: "The present state of Israel is not the final form. The present state of Israel will be lost, eventually, and Israel will be run out of the land again, only to return when they accept the Messiah as Savior." (Radio debate with Gary DeMar)
 
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Futurism also has many shades and flavors.............
There are also sub boards on GT for both Dispyism and CT, and not sure why some of the threads on this board aren't instead placed on these boards.........


That is something you will have to ask the administration about, but the reason why this thread which you began was not placed in a "Partial Preterist Only" section is because you began it in a more generalized branch in which you have been and are hearing from people on both sides of the Preterist/Dispensationalist aisle and from various factions within both camps. You did not have to do that but you did because you wanted take a survey to find out where fellow professing followers in Christ actually stand concerning replacement theology/supressionism, even inviting me to give my input which I did.
 
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Is "Christian Zionism" Biblical ?

G-I-G-O What Christian Zionists Get Wrong About Israel

Steve Lumbley: G-I-G-O What Christian Zionists Get Wrong About Israel (2017)

Revelation] was written in Patmos (about A.D. 68), whither John had been banished by Domitius Nero, as stated in the title of the Syriac Version of the Book. The internal testimony is wholly in favour of the earlier date. The temple at Jerusalem was still standing (ch. 11. 1-10); the exact duration of the siege is foretold, viz., 42 months; Nero was reigning at that time, for it is said of the seven kings of Rome; 'five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come, and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.' The five kings are Julius Caesar, Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius. The 'one who is' is Nero; the one who 'must continue a short space' is Galba, who reigned only seven months. Everywhere the events are 'to come quickly,' lit. 'with haste,' or speed (ch. 1. 1; 2. 16; 3. 11; 11. 14; 22. 7, 12, 20). - Robert Young


2018_featured_disdementia.jpg


Christian Zionist’s (hereinafter referred to as CZ’s) often accuse me of teaching replacement theology, a term which is intended to have the same effect as the word racist. It is an attempt to stop the discussion right then and there. No more discussion is needed if you are a replacement theologian. You are so obviously wrong and deluded we’re done with this conversation.

In reality, I don’t know anyone who teaches replacement theology as it is commonly defined by CZ’s. That definition always includes the idea that God is “finished” with the Jews, whatever that means. Perhaps some taught that in the past. Men like Martin Luther, John Calvin, and the Catholic Church, were vicious in their denunciation of Jews and viewed them as mortal enemies of the church. Other than a few radical fringe groups like white supremacists I know of no one today who believes Jews should be denounced and marginalized in that way. Any person or group that denies Christ can be considered an enemy of the gospel but we as Christians are to love our enemies and reach out to them with truth.

When confronted with the replacement theology accusation I often answer the question with a question. I’ll ask this – has the New Covenant replaced the Old Covenant.

Astonishingly, many CZ’s answer that question with a resounding no! According to many of them the New Covenant has not replaced the Old Covenant, or it only applies to the church, or it hasn’t been fully implemented, or it doesn’t apply to the Jews, or it was never offered to the Jews, or it is in effect but will be supplanted by a temporary return to the Old Covenant for the sake of bringing Jews to Christ.

Therefore if CZ’s begin with the premise that the New Covenant does not replace the Old Covenant at least as it applies to the nation of Israel or the Jewish people, if they read the Old Covenant promises and prophecies as if the New Covenant doesn’t really exist, that faulty premise leads them to a false understanding of the modern nation state of Israel as well as a false understanding of the true Israel of God. Garbage in – Garbage out.

So, let’s begin with this. No, I do not believe that God is “finished” with the Jewish people. I believe they have every opportunity to be reconciled to God as does every man, woman, and child on this planet be they Jew or Gentile. But in order to be reconciled to the Father the Jewish people must come through the cross of Christ just like everyone else. God is no respecter of persons. No ethnic or national identity, no biological birthright will ever bring reconciliation between God and man. And the method that God has chosen to bring both Jew and Gentile to the cross of Christ is the preaching of the gospel.

For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved. How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? Romans 10:11-14

For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 1Co 1:21-24

It is clear from these scriptures and many others that the only New Covenant method of bringing men to reconciliation is the preaching of the gospel and that applies to both Jew and Gentile. There is nothing in scripture to suggest that the New Covenant was not applicable to the Jewish people. If there were, the apostles certainly wasted their time by taking this gospel to the Jew first and then the gentiles.

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. Romans 1:16

If Jews were still to be saved by some application of the Old Covenant, why did Peter bother to preach the gospel on the day of Pentecost? (Acts 2) Better yet why did God save 3,000 souls that day by the power of Peter’s proclamation?

If there were to be some other method of bringing Jews to Christ, why did Stephen dispute with the men of the Synagogue of the Freedmen? (Acts 6:9) Why did they bring him before the Jewish scribes and elders with false accusations of blasphemy? Why did Stephen continue to proclaim the gospel while being stoned to death for his trouble? (Acts 7)

Indeed why did Paul or any of the apostles endure the trials and tribulations they incurred primarily from the Jews. Why bother with all that if God would eventually save them all by some other means?

Even so, many CZ’s in our day say God will use some other method to bring Christ to the nation of Israel. Some believe it will happen only after the modern nation of Israel is facing defeat at the hands of anti-christ. Some are convinced that after 2/3rd’s of Israel is destroyed the remaining Jews will somehow turn en-masse to Christ and be saved. The obvious question here is why hasn’t that happened before?

When Jerusalem and the entire nation of Israel was destroyed in 70 AD was there any national repentance and turning to Christ? How about the holocaust of the 1940’s? Did Hitler cause Jews to turn to Christ? How about any of the tribulations Jews have faced down through the centuries? None of those things have brought Jews to Christ because those are not the methods ordained by the Father to reconcile them to the Messiah.

Yet during all those tribulations and more, Jews have been coming to Christ through the preaching of the gospel. For over 2,000 years and still today Jews are coming to Christ through the same gospel message the apostles preached. There is no other means by which men can be saved. (Acts 4:12)

Some CZ’s insist that Jews will be saved when they see Christ return in glory. They use the prophecy of Zechariah.

And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. Zec 12:10

There are several problems with that particular interpretation the first of which is salvation comes by faith, not by sight (2 Cor 5:7). If physically seeing him is to bring salvation, God becomes a respecter of persons and a liar. He would be allowing Jews salvation by sight, giving Jews an opportunity afforded no other group of people in all of history.

And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they. Acts 15:7-11

Peter preached the gospel to the household of Roman Centurion Cornelius, a gentile (Acts 10). He saw the Lord pour out the Holy Spirit upon them and he concludes that God desires to save Jews and Gentiles both by that method, the preaching of the gospel.

Finally we know that God will not bring salvation to the Jews at some future time by looking upon him because according to the Apostle John, Zechariah’s prophecy was fulfilled at the cross. Writing about what he had personally witnessed at Calvary, John said;

And he who has seen has testified, and his testimony is true; and he knows that he is telling the truth, so that you may believe. For these things were done that the Scripture should be fulfilled, “Not one of His bones shall be broken.” And again another Scripture says, “They shall look on Him whom they pierced.” John 19:35-37

John quoted Old Covenant scripture as proof that Jesus of Nazareth fulfilled these Messianic prophecies. Not one of his bones shall be broken was a fulfillment of David’s Messianic Psalm 34:20. It also fulfilled the symbolism of the Passover lamb (Exodus 12:46 & Numbers 9:12) And they shall look upon Him whom they pierced fulfilled Zechariah 12:10.

Therefore Zechariah 12:10 is not some far off future promise of salvation by sight. It was a messianic prophesy fulfilled by Christ at the cross, witnessed and testified to by John so that the Jewish people would know that Jesus is the promised Messiah.

I began by stating that CZ’s read scripture as if the New Covenant didn’t exist. In part 2 of this series we will see how scripture itself interprets prophecy in light of the New Covenant.

All scripture references from NKJV

Well you do a lot of dancing and implying but do not hit the truth at all. Replacement theology as practiced by covenant theologians for the most part rejects that god will have anything to do in th efuture with the nation of Israel (as a people), and that all the covenant promises made to Israel apart from the Mosaic Covenant (Old Covenant) are now allegorically given to the church!

Most covenant theologians forget that the Abrahamic, Palestinian and Davidic Covenants are exclusive apart from the Mosaic covenant and that two of these were made over 400 years prior to the Old Covenant.
 
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