Be brave to look at the evidences ! Is Catholicism right ?

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tampasteve

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Well, the christians of the first centuries believed in the authority of the pope as well as the papal succession so the "One Holy Catholic and apostolic Church" is in fact The Catholic Church.

Historically that is really not a clear fact. It is fairly clear that he held a place of prominence, but how universal or powerful that place actually was is very debatable. Even the succession is not abundantly clear for the first century or so.
 
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Albion

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Well, the christians of the first centuries believed in the authority of the pope as well as the papal succession so the "One Holy Catholic and apostolic Church"

There was no pope in the first century, and the bishop of Rome was not recognized as the Pope, nor did he claim to be a pope figure.
 
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Have you seen the Christian Forums Statement of Faith?

It's very good to know (even if familiar to those of us where the creeds are recited in our churches already). Even if for those that already know the Nicene Creed, they should have a look anyway (it will be very valuable) and here's why: look at how you can look up verses about the lines of the creed, and also look at the brief end note on what "catholic" means!

Here, I'll just copy it from the page -- CF Statement of Faith | Christian Forums:

Statement of Faith
The Nicene Creed
We believe in (Romans 10:8-10; 1John 4:15)
ONE God, (Deuteronomy 6:4, Ephesians 4:6)
the Father (Matthew 6:9)
Almighty, (Exodus 6:3)
Maker of Heaven and Earth, (Genesis 1:1)
and of all things visible and invisible. (Colossians 1:15-16)
And in ONE Lord Jesus Christ, (Acts 11:17)
the Son of God, (Mathew 14:33; 16:16)
the Only-Begotten, (John 1:18; 3:16)
Begotten of the Father before all ages. (John 1:2)
Light of Light; (Psalm 27:1; John 8:12; Matthew 17:2,5)
True God of True God; (John 17:1-5)
Begotten, not made; (John 1:18)
of one essence with the Father (John 10:30)
by whom all things were made; (Hebrews 1:1-2)
Who for us men and for our salvation (1Timothy 2:4-5)
came down from Heaven, (John 6:33,35)
and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, (Luke 1:35)
and became man. (John 1:14)
And was crucified for us (Mark 15:25; 1Cointhians 15:3)
under Pontius Pilate, (John 19:6)
and suffered, (Mark 8:31)
and was buried. (Luke 23:53; 1Corinthians 15:4)
And the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures. (Luke 24:1 1Corinthians 15:4)
And ascended into Heaven, (Luke 24:51; Acts 1:10)
and sits at the right hand of the Father. (Mark 16:19; Acts 7:55)
And He shall come again with glory (Matthew 24:27)
to judge the living and the dead; (Acts 10:42; 2Timothy 4:1)
whose Kingdom shall have no end. (2 Peter 1:11)
And in the Holy Spirit, (John 14:26)
the Lord, (Acts 5:3-4)
the Giver of Life, (Genesis 1:2)
Who proceeds from the Father; (John 15:26)
Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; (Matthew 3:16-17)
Who spoke through the prophets. (1 Samuel 19:20 ; Ezekiel 11:5,13) In one, (Matthew 16: 18)
holy, (1 Peter 2:5,9)
catholic*, (Mark 16:15)
and apostolic Church. (Acts 2:42; Ephesians 2:19-22)
I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins**. (Ephesians 4:5; Acts 2:38)
I look for the resurrection of the dead, (John 11:24; 1Corinthians 15:12-49; Hebrews 6:2; Revelation 20:5)
and the life of the world to come. (Mark 10:29-30)
AMEN. (Psalm 106:48)

Notes
* The word "catholic" (literally, "complete," "universal," or "according to the whole") refers to the universal church of the Lord Jesus Christ and not necessarily or exclusively to any particular visible denomination, institution, or doctrine.
...

----------

See?

Many/most individual believers in various churches, Catholic, Orthodox, Lutheran, Methodist, Baptist, etc., etc. are already in the catholic Church.

Already. We are already in your church. You are in my church.

No church has the monopoly on Christ, but instead Christ has the monopoly on us!

That is a mix of history and of your interpretation right here.. You are forgetting that Jesus built his Church on Peter that he gave the keys to Peter. Jesus founded One Church, a Church that believed in the real presence of the eucharist and in sacraments, but also a Church with a Pope and a papal authority that has condemned the heresies and schisms over the centuries.
Protestantism cut itself from the One and Holy Catholic Church and continues to protest the Church.
 
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Historically that is really not a clear fact. It is fairly clear that he held a place of prominence, but how universal or powerful that place actually was is very debatable. Even the succession is not abundantly clear for the first century or so.

Tertullian :

“Was anything withheld from the knowledge of Peter, who is called ‘the rock on which the Church would be built’ [Matt. 16:18] with the power of ‘loosing and binding in heaven and on earth’ [Matt. 16:19]?” (Demurrer Against the Heretics 22 [A.D. 200]).

“[T]he Lord said to Peter, ‘On this rock I will build my Church, I have given you the keys of the kingdom of heaven [and] whatever you shall have bound or loosed on earth will be bound or loosed in heaven’ [Matt. 16:18–19]. . . . What kind of man are you, subverting and changing what was the manifest intent of the Lord when he conferred this personally upon Peter? Upon you, he says, I will build my Church; and I will give to you the keys” (Modesty 21:9–10 [A.D. 220]).

Pope Clement 1 :

“Through countryside and city [the apostles] preached, and they appointed their earliest converts, testing them by the Spirit, to be the bishops and deacons of future believers. Nor was this a novelty, for bishops and deacons had been written about a long time earlier. . . . Our apostles knew through our Lord Jesus Christ that there would be strife for the office of bishop. For this reason, therefore, having received perfect foreknowledge, they appointed those who have already been mentioned and afterwards added the further provision that, if they should die, other approved men should succeed to their ministry” (Letter to the Corinthians 42:4–5, 44:1–3 [A.D. 80]).

Hegesippus :

“When I had come to Rome, I [visited] Anicetus, whose deacon was Eleutherus. And after Anicetus [died], Soter succeeded, and after him Eleutherus. In each succession and in each city there is a continuance of that which is proclaimed by the law, the prophets, and the Lord” (Memoirs, cited in Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History 4:22 [A.D. 180]).
 
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Funky Slippers

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Hi,

I'm a fervent christian catholic and I've recently started a new youtube channel expose the lies against the Church of Jesus Christ.
A few years ago I was tested in my faith in Jesus and I began to look at the offers from protestant denominations.. I investigated their claims on catholicism and I came to the conclusion that the Roman Catholic Church was founded by Jesus Christ.

I think that the choice Catholicism/Protestantism DOES matter and I'm only here because I love you and because I've found the truth about the Catholic Church.
I want you to honestly look at the evidences presented in my videos. Please be open and watch it and come back to me.
(of course all the arguments in favor of the Church and against protestantism are not found in this video..)


God bless !
I see your header is in defense of the faith. Which faith are you referring too?
 
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tampasteve

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Tertullian :

“Was anything withheld from the knowledge of Peter, who is called ‘the rock on which the Church would be built’ [Matt. 16:18] with the power of ‘loosing and binding in heaven and on earth’ [Matt. 16:19]?” (Demurrer Against the Heretics 22 [A.D. 200]).

“[T]he Lord said to Peter, ‘On this rock I will build my Church, I have given you the keys of the kingdom of heaven [and] whatever you shall have bound or loosed on earth will be bound or loosed in heaven’ [Matt. 16:18–19]. . . . What kind of man are you, subverting and changing what was the manifest intent of the Lord when he conferred this personally upon Peter? Upon you, he says, I will build my Church; and I will give to you the keys” (Modesty 21:9–10 [A.D. 220]).

That does not prove or really even support the succession, perhaps primacy of Peter, but not necessarily succession from him in a linear person to person way.
Pope Clement 1 :

“Through countryside and city [the apostles] preached, and they appointed their earliest converts, testing them by the Spirit, to be the bishops and deacons of future believers. Nor was this a novelty, for bishops and deacons had been written about a long time earlier. . . . Our apostles knew through our Lord Jesus Christ that there would be strife for the office of bishop. For this reason, therefore, having received perfect foreknowledge, they appointed those who have already been mentioned and afterwards added the further provision that, if they should die, other approved men should succeed to their ministry” (Letter to the Corinthians 42:4–5, 44:1–3 [A.D. 80]).

Well, I am going to dismiss Clement entirely since one cannot really use ones own word for support. Of course Clement would support his primacy and succession.
Hegesippus :

“When I had come to Rome, I [visited] Anicetus, whose deacon was Eleutherus. And after Anicetus [died], Soter succeeded, and after him Eleutherus. In each succession and in each city there is a continuance of that which is proclaimed by the law, the prophets, and the Lord” (Memoirs, cited in Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History 4:22 [A.D. 180]).
The reliability or Eusebius has always been questionable. Even so, Antecetus was Bishop of Rome around 153, so over 100 years removed from Peter. So this can't be used to prove unbroken succession or primacy.


I want to state that I do believe in Apostolic Succession, it is one of the reasons I am in the church that I am and not another expression of it. Although I acknowledge that our views of just what accounts for Apostolic Succession are likely different.
 
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Halbhh

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That is a mix of history and of your interpretation right here.. You are forgetting that Jesus built his Church on Peter that he gave the keys to Peter. Jesus founded One Church, a Church that believed in the real presence of the eucharist and in sacraments, but also a Church with a Pope and a papal authority that has condemned the heresies and schisms over the centuries.
Protestantism cut itself from the One and Holy Catholic Church and continues to protest the Church.
Perhaps you already know and agree (?) that the "keys" is first and primarily including the Gospel itself(!). The apostles were directly, first hand, given the Gospel. And so they could then spread the Gospel, which is the primary key to the Kingdom of Heaven (and not yet on paper), by which we may enter. The Apostles would have the authority about what is the Gospel -- the true knowledge, the correct knowledge -- and so would be able to tell it to others. We also know that the Holy Spirit would come upon them all, all of the apostles, to guide them, and thus they could 'loose and bind' because the Holy Spirit would guide them, on various matters. (not just 1 was given the Spirit of course, but all)

"We conceive that this power was first given to St. Peter in acknowledgment of his good confession, and as an emblem of unity, and was afterwards bestowed on all the apostles. That the Fathers did not regard it as limited exclusively to Peter, may he seen by quotations gathered by Wordsworth and other commentators. Thus Tertullian, 'Scorpiac.,' 10, "Memento claves hic Dominum Petro, et per illum Ecclesiae reliquisse;" St. Cyprian, 'De Unit.,' p. 107, "Apostolis omnibus post resurrectionem suam parem potestatem tribuit;" St. Augustine, 'Serm.,' 295, "Has claves non homo unus, sed unitas accepit Ecclcsiae."" -- Pulpit Commentary: Matthew 16:19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."
 
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That does not prove or really even support the succession, perhaps primacy of Peter, but not necessarily succession from him in a linear person to person way.


Well, I am going to dismiss Clement entirely since one cannot really use ones own word for support. Of course Clement would support his primacy and succession.

The reliability or Eusebius has always been questionable. Even so, Antecetus was Bishop of Rome around 153, so over 100 years removed from Peter. So this can't be used to prove unbroken succession or primacy.


I want to state that I do believe in Apostolic Succession, it is one of the reasons I am in the church that I am and not another expression of it. Although I acknowledge that our views of just what accounts for Apostolic Succession are likely different.

Irenaeus :

“It is possible, then, for everyone in every church, who may wish to know the truth, to contemplate the tradition of the apostles which has been made known to us throughout the whole world. And we are in a position to enumerate those who were instituted bishops by the apostles and their successors down to our own times, men who neither knew nor taught anything like what these heretics rave about” (Against Heresies 3:3:1 [A.D. 189]).

It cannot get clearer !
 
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Halbhh

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That is a mix of history and of your interpretation right here.. You are forgetting that Jesus built his Church on Peter that he gave the keys to Peter. Jesus founded One Church, a Church that believed in the real presence of the eucharist and in sacraments, but also a Church with a Pope and a papal authority that has condemned the heresies and schisms over the centuries.
Protestantism cut itself from the One and Holy Catholic Church and continues to protest the Church.

Consider: is someone growing up in a Lutheran church, for instance, responsible for what Luther said and did 500 years before they were born? Is someone in the Catholic church responsible for the bad actions of the Inquisition? Those 2 answers are: 'No'.

It's good to be aware that broadly, generally, many other churches are not protesting against the denomination "Catholic", but recognize that those in that church are also in the Church, with us all.
 
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tampasteve

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Irenaeus :

“It is possible, then, for everyone in every church, who may wish to know the truth, to contemplate the tradition of the apostles which has been made known to us throughout the whole world. And we are in a position to enumerate those who were instituted bishops by the apostles and their successors down to our own times, men who neither knew nor taught anything like what these heretics rave about” (Against Heresies 3:3:1 [A.D. 189]).

It cannot get clearer !

As I said, I agree with Apostolic Succession, but one does not have to also believe in the primacy of Rome in that case. Look to the East - the Orthodox churches have a valid line of AS according to the Catholic Church, but they do not believe in the primacy of Rome.
 
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As I said, I agree with Apostolic Succession, but one does not have to also believe in the primacy of Rome in that case. Look to the East - the Orthodox churches have a valid line of AS according to the Catholic Church, but they do not believe in the primacy of Rome.

Yes but the Orthodox Church is not universal.
 
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tampasteve

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Yes but the Orthodox Church is not universal.
By that reasoning the Catholic Church is not "Correct" being as "Catholic" means universal and "Orthodox" means correct. Neither statement would actually be correct, however. They are simply names.
 
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Akita Suggagaki

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There's a long history of people doing here what you aspire to do, but you are welcome to repeat all of it if you wish. If a suggestion is in order, do it by explaining why you came to the conclusion that you did; presenting someone else's video never accomplishes much on a board that is supposed to be for "discussion." :)

I agree completely.
 
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By that reasoning the Catholic Church is not "Correct" being as "Catholic" means universal and "Orthodox" means correct. Neither statement would actually be correct, however. They are simply names.

No but it's a fact that the Catholic Church is universal in name and in nature. It's the largest Church in the world by far.
The Orthodox Church has an issue when it comes to being “one.” I’m not referring to the dissent and division that has been part of every Christian community since the beginning. I’m referring to the fact that not all Orthodox churches are in full communion with each other.
And again, the fact that Peter is the Rock is a proof of the primacy of Peter as the first Pope of the Catholic Church. Jesus founded his Church on Peter !


Another quote from the fathers of the Church :

CYPRIAN OF CARTHAGE :

“The Lord says to Peter: ‘I say to you,’ he says, ‘that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not overcome it. And to you I will give the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever things you bind on earth shall be bound also in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth, they shall be loosed also in heaven’ [Matt. 16:18–19]). … On him [Peter] he builds the Church, and to him he gives the command to feed the sheep [John 21:17], and although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single chair [cathedra], and he established by his own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were also what Peter was [i.e., apostles], but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair. So too, all [the apostles] are shepherds, and the flock is shown to be one, fed by all the apostles in single-minded accord. If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he [should] desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?” (The Unity of the Catholic Church 4; 1st edition [A.D. 251]).
 
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JacksBratt

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That is a mix of history and of your interpretation right here.. You are forgetting that Jesus built his Church on Peter that he gave the keys to Peter. Jesus founded One Church, a Church that believed in the real presence of the eucharist and in sacraments, but also a Church with a Pope and a papal authority that has condemned the heresies and schisms over the centuries.
Protestantism cut itself from the One and Holy Catholic Church and continues to protest the Church.
It all depends on what you think that Christ was referring to when He said "upon this rock I will build my church" doesn't it?

Was it Peter?
Was it what Peter stated? That being "
Matthew 16:16 King James Version (KJV)

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God
.

IMO Christ is building His church.. the body of Christ... all those that accept Him as savior.... the collective group of all humans that believe that He is the Christ...He is building His church on the fact that He was in fact the Christ, the Son of the Living God.


From:
What did Jesus mean when he said, “Upon this rock I will build my church”? | Bible.org

The name Peter (Gk., Petros) means “rock” or “rock-man.” In the next phrase Christ used petra (upon this rock), a feminine form for “rock,” not a name. Christ used a play on words. He does not say “upon you, Peter” or “upon your successors,” but “upon this rock”—upon this divine revelation and profession of faith in Christ.

From:

Upon this Rock I Will Build My Church

Peter is from petros, a masculine form of the Greek word for small stone, whereas rock is from petra, a different form of the same basic word, referring to a rocky mountain or peak. Perhaps the most popular interpretation is therefore that Jesus was comparing Peter, a small stone, to the great mountainous rock on which He would build His church. The antecedent of rock is taken to be Peter’s divinely inspired confession of Jesus as “the Christ, the Son of the living God” (vv. 16–17).
 
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tampasteve

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No but it's a fact that the Catholic Church is universal in name and in nature.
Is that so? If it is then why are there groups such as the SSPX, Old Catholics, etc.? The very break of the Lutherans and other early Protestant churches would imply otherwise.

It's the largest Church in the world by far.
Many would argue that is evidence that it is not the One True Church. Scripture has many verses about the remnant or small groups. I don't personally agree with those interpretations, but they are worth considering that size does not imply right. If that were so the "Chrisian" Jews would have been wrong as they were far outnumbered by the mainstream Jews in the 1st century.
The Orthodox Church has an issue when it comes to being “one.” I’m not referring to the dissent and division that has been part of every Christian community since the beginning. I’m referring to the fact that not all Orthodox churches are in full communion with each other.
See my reply to the first quote in this post, basically the same applies. Sure Orthodox have some groups not in communion, but they often come back. Further, usually the break is at the top level, but the laity are still allowed to commune if needed.
And again, the fact that Peter is the Rock is a proof of the primacy of Peter as the first Pope of the Catholic Church. Jesus founded his Church on Peter !
You can say that if you wish, I will not hold it against you as it is a vaild and supportable position, but the historical and and scriptural evidence is debatable. Cyprian's quote is valuable, but it still comes hundreds of years after Peter and Jesus.
 
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There's a long history of people doing here what you aspire to do, but you are welcome to repeat all of it if you wish. If a suggestion is in order, do it by explaining why you came to the conclusion that you did; presenting someone else's video never accomplishes much on a board that is supposed to be for "discussion."
When people come to the wrong conclusion (as most people on earth do),
can that be discussed or posted in this section of the forum ? (it is awkward at best anyway)
 
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Hi,

I'm a fervent christian catholic and I've recently started a new youtube channel expose the lies against the Church of Jesus Christ.
A few years ago I was tested in my faith in Jesus and I began to look at the offers from protestant denominations.. I investigated their claims on catholicism and I came to the conclusion that the Roman Catholic Church was founded by Jesus Christ.

I think that the choice Catholicism/Protestantism DOES matter and I'm only here because I love you and because I've found the truth about the Catholic Church.
I want you to honestly look at the evidences presented in my videos. Please be open and watch it and come back to me.
(of course all the arguments in favor of the Church and against protestantism are not found in this video..)


God bless !
The church - ie, house of God, meaning the people of God since God does not dwell in buildings but the hearts of believers - that was started by Jesus is catholic in the original meaning of the word - ie, universal, for all mankind.

The Church - ie, the organization that has developed for believers to gather together - Roman Catholic, Protestant, Eastern Orthodox and the rest -is not from Christ, but is the choice of men. God has given us the freedom to gather any way we choose, but he did not ordain the structure of gathering, only several ordinances.
 
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