The Preterist Gap

Christian Gedge · Oct 9, 2019

DavidPT said:
I'm still not seeing what abomination happened in the temple in Jerusalem that caused it to then be destroyed in the first century. God was the one that initially required animal sacrificing, it was all His idea. Some have concluded, maybe not you though, IDK, that the continuing of animal sacrificing after Christ's death was the abomination. We know that can't be correct though, because according to the Discourse, when one sees the abomination, they are then to flee into the mountains at that time. Obviously they would be seeing animal sacrificing going on for another 40 years, and if that is the abomination, well folks should have been fleeing to the mountains continuously for this entire 40 years, yet no one was. So we can at least rule that theory out, that animal sacrificing was the abomination.

We do well to consider the teaching of the early church concerning this. Here is the account of the Christian Historian Eusbius.

After the prophecy of the events that happened to the Jewish nation in the intermediate period between the seven and sixty-two weeks, there follows the prophecy of the new Covenant announced by our Saviour. So, when all the intermediate matter between the seven and the sixty-two weeks is finished, there is added, "And he will confirm a Covenant with many one week," and in half the week the sacrifice and the libation shall be taken away, and on the Holy Place shall come the abomination of desolation, and until the fullness of time fullness shall be given to the desolation. Let us consider how this was fulfilled.
…
Half through this (70th) week, during which He confirmed the said Covenant with many, the sacrifice and libation was taken away, and the abomination of desolation began, for in the middle of this week after the three-and-a-half days of His Teaching, at the time when He suffered, the Veil of the Temple was torn asunder from the top to the bottom, so that in effect from that time sacrifice and libation were taken away, and the abomination of desolation stood in the holy place, inasmuch as the Being had left them desolate, Who had been from time immemorial till that day the guardian and protector of the place. For it is fitting to believe that up to the Saviour's Passion there was some Divine Power guarding the Temple and the Holy of Holies.
…
at his Passion the Veil of the Temple was wholly rent in twain, and from that moment the sacrifice and libation well pleasing to God according to the ordinance of the Law was in effect taken away, and when it was removed, the abomination of desolation, as the prophecy before us says, appeared in its place.

EUSBIUS (Demonstratio Evangelica, Book 8 Chapter 2)

keras · Oct 10, 2019

Christian Gedge said:
We do well to consider the teaching of the early church concerning this. Here is the account of the Christian Historian Eusbius.

After the prophecy of the events that happened to the Jewish nation in the intermediate period between the seven and sixty-two weeks, there follows the prophecy of the new Covenant announced by our Saviour. So, when all the intermediate matter between the seven and the sixty-two weeks is finished, there is added, "And he will confirm a Covenant with many one week," and in half the week the sacrifice and the libation shall be taken away, and on the Holy Place shall come the abomination of desolation, and until the fullness of time fullness shall be given to the desolation. Let us consider how this was fulfilled.
…
Half through this (70th) week, during which He confirmed the said Covenant with many, the sacrifice and libation was taken away, and the abomination of desolation began, for in the middle of this week after the three-and-a-half days of His Teaching, at the time when He suffered, the Veil of the Temple was torn asunder from the top to the bottom, so that in effect from that time sacrifice and libation were taken away, and the abomination of desolation stood in the holy place, inasmuch as the Being had left them desolate, Who had been from time immemorial till that day the guardian and protector of the place. For it is fitting to believe that up to the Saviour's Passion there was some Divine Power guarding the Temple and the Holy of Holies.
…
at his Passion the Veil of the Temple was wholly rent in twain, and from that moment the sacrifice and libation well pleasing to God according to the ordinance of the Law was in effect taken away, and when it was removed, the abomination of desolation, as the prophecy before us says, appeared in its place.

EUSBIUS (Demonstratio Evangelica, Book 8 Chapter 2)

Like all the Church Fathers from the first century until now, Eusbius was prone to error.
His idea of the 69th week ending 3 1/2 years before the Crucifixion and that event being the AoD, isn't what the scriptures tell us at all. The 69th week ended at the Crucifixion.

Revelation makes it quite plain that the final 3 1/2 year period before Jesus Returns, will be the Great Tribulation. The AoD, which will be the leader of the One World Govt sitting in the Temple, 2 Thess 2:4, commences the GT.

DavidPT · Oct 10, 2019

jgr said:
Matthew 24
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Luke 21
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

Luke clarifies the meaning of the abomination of desolation.

It is the Roman armies encircling Jerusalem, the holy city.

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )

Mark 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

It seems to me we need to go to the book of Daniel in order to find out what Jesus was meaning here, rather than trying to determine that from Luke 21.

All of the following passages involve desolation.

Daniel 8:13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Daniel 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

All of the following passages involve abomination.

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Daniel 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

IMO then, what Jesus was referring to in the Discourse has to do with all of the above passages I provided from the book of Daniel.

According to Daniel 11:31 and Daniel 12:11, the abomination is something that is placed that maketh desolate and is something that is set up. That doesn't sound like an army surrounding a city to me.

Regardless what your interpretation of Daniel 11:31 and Daniel 12:11 is, how can this not be where Jesus was wanting us to read in Daniel?

DavidPT · Oct 10, 2019

Christian Gedge said:
We do well to consider the teaching of the early church concerning this. Here is the account of the Christian Historian Eusbius.

After the prophecy of the events that happened to the Jewish nation in the intermediate period between the seven and sixty-two weeks, there follows the prophecy of the new Covenant announced by our Saviour. So, when all the intermediate matter between the seven and the sixty-two weeks is finished, there is added, "And he will confirm a Covenant with many one week," and in half the week the sacrifice and the libation shall be taken away, and on the Holy Place shall come the abomination of desolation, and until the fullness of time fullness shall be given to the desolation. Let us consider how this was fulfilled.
…
Half through this (70th) week, during which He confirmed the said Covenant with many, the sacrifice and libation was taken away, and the abomination of desolation began, for in the middle of this week after the three-and-a-half days of His Teaching, at the time when He suffered, the Veil of the Temple was torn asunder from the top to the bottom, so that in effect from that time sacrifice and libation were taken away, and the abomination of desolation stood in the holy place, inasmuch as the Being had left them desolate, Who had been from time immemorial till that day the guardian and protector of the place. For it is fitting to believe that up to the Saviour's Passion there was some Divine Power guarding the Temple and the Holy of Holies.
…
at his Passion the Veil of the Temple was wholly rent in twain, and from that moment the sacrifice and libation well pleasing to God according to the ordinance of the Law was in effect taken away, and when it was removed, the abomination of desolation, as the prophecy before us says, appeared in its place.

EUSBIUS (Demonstratio Evangelica, Book 8 Chapter 2)

I would have never believed it had I not seen it, that apparently there are some which believe there are no gaps in the 70 weeks, and then take all of verse 27 to be involving the 70th week, thus applying the part after the middle of the week to that of around the time of Christ's death. I of course disagree big time with Eusbius' conclusions here. It's interesting what he concluded though, yet his interpretation couldn't possibly be correct. At least he concluded that all of verse 27 involves the 70th week. He at least got that part right.

DavidPT · Oct 10, 2019

mkgal1 said:
The 2nd Temple actually never had the presence of the LORD.

Actually it did though, every time Jesus entered into it. Yet the way you are meaning I tend to agree with you about that.

LittleLambofJesus · Oct 10, 2019

jgr said: ↑
Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luke clarifies the meaning of the abomination of desolation.
It is the Roman armies encircling Jerusalem, the holy city.

And also Luke 19:43 and Revelation 8:8.

Please visit my new poll thread on 70ad Temple/Jerusalem and Revelation

Luke 19:43 "Shall be arriving days upon Thee/Reve 8:8 In one day shall arrive Her blows"

Luke 21:20 Whenever yet may be seeing Jerusalem surrounded by armies,
then be knowing that come nigh the desolating/ἐρήμωσις<2050> of Her [Luke 19:43 Revelation 8:8]

Luke 19:43 That shall be arriving<2240> days upon Thee,
and Thy enemies shall be casting about<4016> a rampart/siege-work<5482> to Thee and shall be encompassing Thee, and pressing Thee from-every-side.

Revelation 18:8 Thru this in one day shall be arriving<2240> Her blows<4127>,
death and sorrow<3997> and famine<3042>.
And in fire She shall be utterly burned<2618>,
that strong Lord the GOD, the One judging Her.
=================================
The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
Proof that Matthew 24 was fully fulfilled in 70 AD!
Also see: Rapture refuted

Thus they cut the very sinews of their own strength. At this critical and alarming conjuncture, intelligence arrived that the Roman an army was approaching the city.......

Such was the horrible condition of the place when Titus and his army presented themselves, and encamped before Jerusalem ; but, alas ! not to deliver it from its miseries but to fulfill the prediction, and vindicate the benevolent warning of our Lord

The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover ; and it is deserving of the very particular attention of the reader, that this was the anniversary of that memorable period in which the Jews crucified their Messiah ! At this season multitudes came up from all the surrounding country, and from distant parts, to keep the festival. How suitable and how kind, then, was the prophetic admonition of our LORD, and how clearly he into futurity when he said "Let not them that are in the countries enter into Jerusalem." Luke xxi. 21.

Nevertheless, the city was at this time crowded with Jewish strangers, and foreigners from all parts, so that the whole nation may be considered as having been shut up in one prison, preparatory to the execution of the Divine vengeance ; and, according to Josephus this event took place suddenly ; thus, not only fulfilling the predictions of our LORD, that these calamities should come, like the swift-darting lightning" that cometh out of the east and shineth even unto the West," and " as a snare on all of them (the Jews) who dwelt upon the face of the whole earth " (Matt. xxiv. 27, and Luke xxi 35,) but justifying, also
=====================================
Visual Timeline of the Roman-Jewish War ARTchive @ PreteristArchive.com, The Internet's Only Balanced Look at Preterist Eschatology and Preterism

APRIL, A.D. 70 - PHASE ONE
THE ROMAN ARMY ARRIVES AT JERUSALEM TO PREPARE THE SIEGE
The first night of Titus' encampment with the 15th, 3rd and 18th Legions, the 5th Legion arrived from Emmaus and set camp north of the city on Mount Scopus. Later the next day, the famed 10th Legion (founded by Julius Caesar) marched in from Jericho and camped on the Mount of Olives, east of the city. Instead of waiting to starve the Jews into submission, Titus decides to assault many different parts of the city and overwhelm the defenders. Titus was early on in the middle of the fighting with his soldiers. At least two times, Titus and his detachment are surrounded by defenders, only to escape unharmed.

LittleLambofJesus · Oct 10, 2019

mkgal1 said: ↑
The 2nd Temple actually never had the presence of the LORD.

DavidPT said:
Actually it did though, every time Jesus entered into it. Yet the way you are meaning I tend to agree with you about that.

Perhaps mkgal meant the Sanctuary, as shown in Revelation 15:8?

What about Revelation 11:1-2 SANCTUARY, COURT AND HOLY CITY
YLT Rev 15:8
and filled was the Sanctuary with smoke from the glory of GOD, and from His power,
and no one was able to enter into the Sanctuary till the seven plagues of the seven messengers may be finished.

DavidPT said: ↑
Actually it did though, every time Jesus entered into it. Yet the way you are meaning I tend to agree with you about that.

Malachi 3:1 "Behold! I am sending My messenger, and he hath prepared a way before Me,
And suddenly come in unto His Temple doth 'Adown/Lord-Master<113> whom ye are seeking, Even the Messenger of the Covenant, Whom ye are desiring.
Behold! He is coming" says Yahweh of Hosts.

First time the Lord Jesus, the great I AM in the flesh, enters the Temple:

Luke 2:
42 And when He was twelve years old, they went up to Jerusalem according to the custom of the feast.
46 So it was that after three days they found Him in the Temple, sitting in the midst of the Teachers, both listening to them and asking them questions. And all who heard Him were astonished at His understanding and answers.

Isaiah 11:6 And the wolf shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.

Cleansing the Temple.............

John 2:
14 and He found in the Temple those selling oxen and sheep and doves, and the money-changers sitting,
15 and having made a whip<5416> of small cords, He put all forth out of the Temple, also the sheep, and the oxen;
and of the money-changers he poured out the coins, and the tables he overthrew,
[Nahum 3:2/Reve 18:11-13]

Final cleansing in 70AD

Revelation 18:
11 And the merchants of the land are lamenting and are mourning over Her,
that their cargo no-one is buying not-still

13 and cinnamon and incenses and attars and frankincense
and wine and oil and flour and grain
and beasts and sheep
and of horses and of chariots
and of bodies and souls of men.
[Nahum 3:2/John 2:14]
=====================
The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
Proof that Matthew 24 was fully fulfilled in 70 AD!
Also see: Rapture refuted

The Temple now presented little more than a heap of ruins ; and the Roman army as in triumph on the event, came and reared their ensigns against a fragment of the eastern gate, and, with sacrifices of thanksgiving, proclaimed the imperial majesty of Titus, with every possible demonstration of joy.

Thus terminated the glory and existence of this sacred and venerable Edifice, which from its stupendous size, its massy solidity, and astonishing strength, seemed formed to resist the most violent operations of human force, and to stand, like the pyramids, amid the shocks of successive ages, until the final dissolution of the globe. [12]

For five days after the destruction of the Temple, the priests who had escaped, sat, pining with hunger, on the top of one of its broken walls; at length, they came down, and humbly asked the pardon of Titus, which, however, he refused to grant them, saying, that, "as the Temple, for the sake of which he would have spared them, was destroyed, it was but fit that its priests should parish also:"
-whereupon he commanded that they should be put to death.
=============
Malachi 2
1 “And now, O priests, this command is for you. 2 If you will not listen, if you will not take it to heart to give honor to my name, says the Lord of hosts, then I will send the curse upon you and I will curse your blessings. Indeed, I have already cursed them, because you do not lay it to heart.
3 Behold, I will rebuke your offspring,a and spread dung on your faces, the dung of your offerings, and you shall be taken away with it
========================
Visual Timeline of the Roman-Jewish War ARTchive

Christian Gedge · Oct 10, 2019

keras said:
Like all the Church Fathers from the first century until now, Eusbius was prone to error.

DavidPT said:
I of course disagree big time with Eusbius' conclusions here.

What you two guys are doing here is putting your modern theories ahead of the Church's most reputed historian. Has it not occurred to you that Eusibius was writing what had been passed down to him by the first century church?

Sure, scriptural authority trumps everything. But our earliest teachers deserve more respect than you are giving them. Don't you think they believed the scriptures too?

Christian Gedge · Oct 10, 2019

DavidPT said:
I would have never believed it had I not seen it, that apparently there are some which believe there are no gaps in the 70 weeks, and then take all of verse 27 to be involving the 70th week, thus applying the part after the middle of the week to that of around the time of Christ's death. I of course disagree big time with Eusbius' conclusions here. It's interesting what he concluded though, yet his interpretation couldn't possibly be correct. At least he concluded that all of verse 27 involves the 70th week. He at least got that part right.

We never take all of verse 27 to be the 70th week. That's what you are saying. I believe the fall of Jerusalem and destruction of the temple didn't take place within the actual seventy weeks, but the prophet mentioned it to provide information of the aftermath to the weeks in order to explain what the eventual outcome would be.

LittleLambofJesus · Oct 10, 2019

Christian Gedge said:
We do well to consider the teaching of the early church concerning this. Here is the account of the Christian Historian Eusbius.

EUSBIUS (Demonstratio Evangelica, Book 8 Chapter 2)

keras said:Like all the Church Fathers from the first century until now, Eusbius was prone to error.

DavidPT said:
I of course disagree big time with Eusbius' conclusions here.

Christian Gedge said:
What you two guys are doing here is putting your modern theories ahead of the Church's most reputed historian. Has it not occurred to you that Eusibius was writing what had been passed down to him by the first century church?

Sure, scriptural authority trumps everything. But our earliest teachers deserve more respect than you are giving them. Don't you think they believed the scriptures too?

Thks for the info C G
Is that the same Eusebius mentioned in this commentary by G. Holford?

I can now understand why Futurist would disagree with him..........

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
Proof that Matthew 24 was fully fulfilled in 70 AD!
Also see: Rapture refuted

In executing the command of Titus, relative to the demolition of Jerusalem, the Roman soldiers not only threw down the buildings, but even dug up their foundations, and so completely levelled the whole circuit of the city, that a stranger would scarcely have known that it had ever been inhabited by human beings. Thus was this great City, which only five months before, had been crowded with nearly two millions of people, who gloried in its impregnable strength, entirely depopulated, and levelled with the ground. And thus, also was our LORD'S prediction, that her enemies should "lay her even with the ground," and "should not leave in her one stone upon another, " (Luke xix. 44.) most strikingly and fully accomplished ! --

This fact is confirmed by Eusebius, who asserts that he himself saw the city lying in ruins;
and Josephus introduces Eleazer as exclaiming "Where is our great city, which, it was believed, GOD inhabited ? It is altogether rooted and torn up from its foundations ; and the only monument of it that remains, is the camp of its destroyers pitched amidst its reliques !"

Concerning the Temple, our LORD had foretold, particularly, that, notwithstanding their wonderful dimensions, there should "not be left one stone upon another that should not be thrown down ;" and, accordingly, it is recorded, in the Talmud, and by Maimonides, that Terentius Rufus, captain of the army of Titus, absolutely ploughed up the foundations of the Temple with a ploughshare. Now, also, was literally fulfilled that prophecy of Micah- "Therefore shall Zion, for your sakes (i. e. for your wickedness,) be ploughed as a field, and Jerusalem shall become heaps, and the mountain of the LORD's house as the high places of the forest." (Micah iii. 12)
=================
It appears some say he may have actually been the first early church preterist...........I am now just delving into his writings...........

Eusebius Pamphilius (263 - 339) Study Archive

Demonstratio Evangelica (Proof of the Gospel) | Ecclesiastical History | Eusebius' Preterism by DeMar | Shreds of Preterism

Eusebius of Caesarea
Bishop of Caesarea in Palestine
(263 - 339)
"One of the best known and most accessible of the ancient preterists"

“And from that time a succession of all kinds of troubles afflicted the whole nation and their city until the last war against them, and the final siege, in which destruction rushed on them like a flood [Dan. 9:26] with all kinds of misery of famine [Matt. 24:7], plague [Luke 21:21] and sword [Luke 21:24], and all who had conspired against the Saviour in their youth were cut off; then, too, the abomination of desolation stood in the Temple [Matt. 24:15], and it has remained there even till to-day, while they [i.e., the Jews] have daily reached deeper depths of desolation.” (The Proof of the Gospel, trans. W. J. Ferrar, 2 vols. in 1 (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Books, 1981), 2:138, (403: b-c).)

"The Holy Scriptures foretell that there will be unmistakable signs of the Coming of Christ. Now there were among the Hebrews three outstanding offices of dignity, which made the nation famous, firstly the kingship, secondly that of prophet, and lastly the high priesthood. The prophecies said that the abolition and complete destruction of all these three together would be the sign of the presence of the Christ. And that the proofs that the times had come, would lie in the ceasing of the Mosaic worship, the desolation of Jerusalem and its Temple, and the subjection of the whole Jewish race to its enemies...The holy oracles foretold that all these changes, which had not been made in the days of the prophets of old, would take place at the coming of the Christ, which I will presently shew to have been fulfilled as never before in accordance with the predictions." (Demonstratio Evangelica VIII)

You have then in this prophecy of the Descent of the Lord among men from heaven, many other things foretold at the same time, the rejection of the Jews, the judgment on their impiety, the destruction of their royal city, the abolition of the worship practised by them of old according to the Law of Moses; and on the other hand, promises of good for the nations, the knowledge of God, a new ideal of holiness, a new law and teaching coming forth from the land of the Jews. I leave you to see, how wonderful a fulfilment, how wonderful a completion, the prophecy has reached after the Coming of our Saviour Jesus Christ." (Demonstratio Evangelica; Book VI - Chapter 13)

"I have already considered this prophecy among the passages. And I have pointed out that only from the date of our Saviour Jesus Christ's Coming among men have the objects of Jewish reverence, the hill called Zion and Jerusalem, the buildings there, that is to say, the Temple, the Holy of Holies, the Altar, and whatever else was there dedicated to the glory of God, been utterly removed or shaken, in fulfilment of the Word which said: "Behold the Lord, the Lord comes forth from his place, and he shall descend on the high places of the earth, and the mountains shall be shaken under him." (Demonstratio Evangelica ; Book VIII - Chapter 3)

"When, then, we see what was of old foretold for the nations fulfilled in our own day, and when the lamentation and wailing that was predicted for the Jews, and the burning of the Temple and its utter desolation, can also be seen even now to have occurred according to the prediction, surely we must also agree that the King who was prophesied, the Christ of God, has come, since the signs of His coming have been shewn in each instance I have treated to have been clearly fulfilled." (Demonstratio Evangelica; Book VIII)

"The members of the Jerusalem church by means of an oracle, given by revelation to acceptable persons there, were ordered to leave the city before the war began and settle in a town in Peraea called Pella." (III, 5:4)

DavidPT · Oct 10, 2019

Christian Gedge said:
We never take all of verse 27 to be the 70th week.

Because if you did you wouldn't have Jesus fulfilling that verse. Regardless that you disagree, the entire verse is the 70th week, thus one reason I can't agree with an interpretation that has no gaps in the 70 weeks. Of course there is a gap in the 70 weeks, but it's not in the 70th week though, it's between the 69th and 70th week.

DavidPT · Oct 10, 2019

Christian Gedge said:
What you two guys are doing here is putting your modern theories ahead of the Church's most reputed historian. Has it not occurred to you that Eusibius was writing what had been passed down to him by the first century church?

Sure, scriptural authority trumps everything. But our earliest teachers deserve more respect than you are giving them. Don't you think they believed the scriptures too?

I can read what Eusibius wrote in that article you submitted. Anyone that would apply the part about abominations to that of the death of Christ, is not anyone I would have respect for. You act as if there couldn't have been any false teachers back then.

DavidPT · Oct 10, 2019

Christian Gedge said:
Don't you think they believed the scriptures too?

What about someone such as Justin Martyr? He was Premil, something you apparently adamantly disagree with. Do you think he believed the Scriptures too?

Christian Gedge · Oct 10, 2019

DavidPT said:
I can read what Eusibius wrote in that article you submitted. Anyone that would apply the part about abominations to that of the death of Christ, is not anyone I would have respect for. You act as if there couldn't have been any false teachers back then.

He didn't say the death of Christ was an abomination. He was referring to the continuation of animal sacrifice for atonement after Christ had declared it to be finished.

"at his Passion the Veil of the Temple was wholly rent in twain, and from that moment the sacrifice and libation well pleasing to God according to the ordinance of the Law was in effect taken away, and when it was removed, the abomination of desolation, as the prophecy before us says, appeared in its place."

DavidPT · Oct 10, 2019

Christian Gedge said:
He didn't say the death of Christ was an abomination. He was referring to the continuation of animal sacrifice for atonement after Christ had declared it to be finished.

"at his Passion the Veil of the Temple was wholly rent in twain, and from that moment the sacrifice and libation well pleasing to God according to the ordinance of the Law was in effect taken away, and when it was removed, the abomination of desolation, as the prophecy before us says, appeared in its place."

I know he didn't say Christ's death was an abomination. My point was that he somehow connected the abomination that takes place in the middle of the week with that of what Christ did at the cross. Verse 27 is not even about Christ to begin with, but if it was, associating the part about abominations to that of the death of Christ in some way or another, an interpretation such as that has to be rejected. Only someone such as an ac fits the part relating to abominations in that verse.

DavidPT · Oct 10, 2019

Christian Gedge said:
He was referring to the continuation of animal sacrifice for atonement after Christ had declared it to be finished.

If he was, the text in the Discourse plainly tells us, assuming it is meaning the events connected with 70 AD, where I myself have my doubts, that when you shall see the abomination that maketh desolate, you are to at the time to head for the mountains. Yet no one was heading to any mountains for 40 years straight. That should tell anyone the abomination in question has nothing to do with animal sacrificing. God doesn't have ppl perform abominable acts. Animal sacrificing was His idea from the get go. Why would it then become an abomination at some point?

grafted branch · Oct 10, 2019

DavidPT said:
If he was, the text in the Discourse plainly tells us, assuming it is meaning the events connected with 70 AD, where I myself have my doubts, that when you shall see the abomination that maketh desolate, you are to at the time to head for the mountains. Yet no one was heading to any mountains for 40 years straight. That should tell anyone the abomination in question has nothing to do with animal sacrificing. God doesn't have ppl perform abominable acts. Animal sacrificing with His idea from the get go. Why would it then become an abomination at some point?

Hi DavidPT,

I’m a preterits and since you have posted questions about Daniel 12 and the 1290 days till the abomination of desolation, and also the abomination being in the middle of the week being in conflict with Luke 21; I would like to share my view of these matters which is slightly different from others here.

In Daniel 12:11-12 the daily shall be taken away, that is the necessity to provide the daily sacrifices as outlined in Exodus 29:38-39 which was 2 lambs, 1 in the morning and 1 in the evening. The point at which this occurred is in John 1:29 where Jesus was declared to be the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. There are 1290 days until the abomination that maketh desolate is set up. The first sacrifice made after the veil of the temple was torn in two would be considered an abomination. In Matthew 27:51 along with the veil being torn there was an earthquake and the rocks rent. I think the altar used to make the sacrifices was broken down. In Matthew 24:15 the abomination is standing in the holy place, this is the altar being put back up again and sacrifices resumed. Blessed is he that waiteth and cometh to the 1335 days. This is Pentecost and is recorded in Acts 2. The difference between 1290 and 1335 is 45 days; since Pentecost was 50 days, several days would have passed before the temple was put back in order and the sacrifices resumed due to the veil being torn and the earthquake.

The Olivet Discourse

Matthew 24 and Mark 13 both record the statement except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened. Luke 21:22 states that these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. In Isaiah 53:10, which is speaking of Christ, it states “when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days”. By implication if the days of vengeance are shortened then the days without vengeance will be prolonged. The statement that the days shall be shortened is not recorded in Luke because the days being prolonged have been incorporated into it. I think this is why the account in Luke doesn’t use the term “abomination of desolation” but says “when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies” and also includes Jerusalem being trodden down of the Gentiles.

I personally don’t think the abomination of desolation and Jerusalem being compassed with armies is the same event because the days of vengeance were shortened.

As a premil, would you share your view on the 1290 days and 1335 days in Daniel 12:11-12, and how do they fit with the abomination of desolation being in the middle of the week?

DavidPT · Oct 10, 2019

grafted branch said:
Hi DavidPT,

I’m a preterits and since you have posted questions about Daniel 12 and the 1290 days till the abomination of desolation, and also the abomination being in the middle of the week being in conflict with Luke 21; I would like to share my view of these matters which is slightly different from others here.

In Daniel 12:11-12 the daily shall be taken away, that is the necessity to provide the daily sacrifices as outlined in Exodus 29:38-39 which was 2 lambs, 1 in the morning and 1 in the evening. The point at which this occurred is in John 1:29 where Jesus was declared to be the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. There are 1290 days until the abomination that maketh desolate is set up. The first sacrifice made after the veil of the temple was torn in two would be considered an abomination. In Matthew 27:51 along with the veil being torn there was an earthquake and the rocks rent. I think the altar used to make the sacrifices was broken down. In Matthew 24:15 the abomination is standing in the holy place, this is the altar being put back up again and sacrifices resumed. Blessed is he that waiteth and cometh to the 1335 days. This is Pentecost and is recorded in Acts 2. The difference between 1290 and 1335 is 45 days; since Pentecost was 50 days, several days would have passed before the temple was put back in order and the sacrifices resumed due to the veil being torn and the earthquake.

The Olivet Discourse

Matthew 24 and Mark 13 both record the statement except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened. Luke 21:22 states that these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. In Isaiah 53:10, which is speaking of Christ, it states “when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days”. By implication if the days of vengeance are shortened then the days without vengeance will be prolonged. The statement that the days shall be shortened is not recorded in Luke because the days being prolonged have been incorporated into it. I think this is why the account in Luke doesn’t use the term “abomination of desolation” but says “when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies” and also includes Jerusalem being trodden down of the Gentiles.

I personally don’t think the abomination of desolation and Jerusalem being compassed with armies is the same event because the days of vengeance were shortened.

As a premil, would you share your view on the 1290 days and 1335 days in Daniel 12:11-12, and how do they fit with the abomination of desolation being in the middle of the week?

Thanks for posting this. I don't agree with you here, yet by you posting what you did some of these things Preterists teach is slowly but surely becoming a bit a clearer to me. I can actually see some logic in what you submitted, yet my school of thought and your school of thought are still miles apart.

As to what you asked at the end, let me think on a bit, and if I manage to type up some of my thoughts on it, I'll paste them into the thread at some point. In the meantime though---

Daniel 12:12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

I tend to connect that with the following.

Revelation 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

parousia70 · Oct 10, 2019

CharismaticLady said:
While the Jews are partially blinded, still rejecting Jesus as Messiah, of course their city will be called Sodom,

Do you believe Paul's Indictment against them is STILL VALID, or not?
"the Jews [who "killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets"] ...are ...hostile to all men" and that "they always fill up the measure of their sins." (I Thess. 2:14-16)

Still true?

but by that future time their eyes have been opened.

All of them? or only some?

But even while their eyes were partially blinded, God still brought them together as a nation and returned Jerusalem to them in the 6 day war, supernaturally won.

Here's Biblical Proof you are wrong about that.
On 3-27-02, a suicide bomber blew himself, and at least 19 Israelis into eternity. What many may be missing--in fact, some will not want to hear--is that the attack, taking place on Passover, has tremendous theological implications.

In 1967 the Arab league, led by Egypt, attacked Israel on Yom Kippur, the
Day of Atonement. This is one of Israel's most holy days of the year. It seemed, in the first day or two, that Israel was doomed. However, that war lasted, due to Israel's amazing military prowess, only 6 Days. Millennialists hailed Israel's victory as a positive sign that Jehovah was protecting her, and that, of course, we must be living in the last days! Let's take a closer look.

Instead of being a proof that Modern Israel are God's chosen people, the Yom Kippur attack in 1967, and the attack on Passover on 3/27/02 prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that Modern Israel is not in covenant relationship with Jehovah. We know this from scripture.

Read Exodus 34:23: "Three times in the year all your men shall appear before
the Lord, the Lord God of Israel [passover, pentecost, tabernacles]. For I will cast out the nations before you and enlarge your borders; neither will any man covet your land when you go up to appear before the Lord your God three times in the year." The promise here is simple and profound. As long as Israel was in covenant relationship with Jehovah, their enemies would not attack them during their holy feast days!

For 1500 years there were no attacks against Israel during her feast days [During the Mosaic Age]. However, the siege of Jerusalem in A.D. 70 took place, the city fell, during Pentecost. What are the implications of that attack in light of Exodus 34? The Seven Day War of 1967 took place on Yom Kippur, Israel's most Holy Day. What are the implications in light of Exodus 34? And the attack on Passover on 3-27-02. What are the ramifications of this attack, on Israel's Holy Day?

If Israel is still God's chosen people, that Palestinian bomber should never have been allowed by Jehovah to attack during the Passover. If Israel is still God's chosen people the attack of 1967 should never have happened. Instead of Israel's victory at that time being a sign of her elect status, it was, and is, a sign of the direct opposite. It proved, and proves, beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Covenantal promise of Exodus 34 is no longer applicable! But if the Covenantal promise of Exodus 34 is no longer applicable, then the other promises of that Covenant, i.e., the promises of national restoration (e.g. Deuteronomy 30), are also now invalid, abrogated by Jehovah Himself.

Further, the attacks on Yom Kippur, and now Passover, also prove something else, a direct corollary to everything else. Either the Covenant promise of Exodus 34 is no longer valid, or, the people claiming to be Israel today are not the people of the Covenant of Exodus 34. If the Covenant of Exodus is still valid, but the people in Israel today were attacked in violation of Exodus 34, then what does it say about the identity of the people in Israel today? It says that they cannot be the people of the Covenant of Exodus 34!

Every time, and any time, that ANYONE attacks Israel during any of
her three feast days, Bible students everywhere should be trumpeting the
Biblical fact, that this proves, emphatically, and unequivocally, that Modern Geopolitical Israel is not the chosen people of God.

I am anything but anti-Semitic.

Me too.

I love Jews and support Israel.

Israel has on demand Abortion for any reason for any female age 15 yrs and up, no questions asked, and it's totally FREE, paid for by Israeli Taxes.
You support Israel in THAT??

It is replacement theologists, which I'm NOT, that are truly anti-Semitic.

The true replacement theology is the one that REPLACES the Believing remnant Nazarene sect of Israel that accepted and that Followed their Messiah in the first century as the True Continuing Israel, with the wicked sons of Abraham that Rejected Messiah...

Those who do not have the son do not have the father either... (1 John 2:23)
you do know this, right?
If so why would you teach the exact opposite?

DavidPT · Oct 10, 2019

parousia70 said:
Every time, and any time, that ANYONE attacks Israel during any of
her three feast days, Bible students everywhere should be trumpeting the
Biblical fact, that this proves, emphatically, and unequivocally, that Modern Geopolitical Israel is not the chosen people of God.

If true, that contradicts pretty much everything in Ezekiel 39, assuming those prophecies in that chapter are yet to be fulfilled, which of course they are yet to be fulfilled. The text in Ezekiel 39 indicates God is hiding His face from the house of Israel. Which seems more reasonable? God would be hiding His face from the part of the house of Israel that believes, or the part of the house of Israel that fits Modern Geopolitical Israel?

The Preterist Gap

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Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

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Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

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Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow

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