- Mar 13, 2004
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Sir you refuse to answer my main objection. If you are saved by works, do you admit that your works are perfect before God? IF not, then please provide evidence that though you are saved by works, that God some how grades on a curve and allows you to slip by. After all Jesus was saved by works, but He did so perfectly. So to say you have works that are perfect and that actually merit eternal life is quite disturbing. In fact that is why I mentioned jehovah's witnesses and mormons, because what you are teaching is not really orthodoxy. It's not the christian message handed down by our fathers through out the ages. Salvic repentance is taught among the church fathers, and salvation by repenting of one's sins and turning in faith to Jesus, not of ourselves, not of works, but of faith, grace, and complete trust; but works righteousness is not taught among the founding fathers.Well, first, your post here offers no context for Galatians 5:2, and Galatians 5:4 (Which are the verses I was originally talking about).
Second, You define "repentance" as turning away from sin. The problem with your view of repentance here is that you don't realize that turning away from sin is an action of some kind or something that you do. Any effort of any kind you do for GOD is a work. So you are asserting that works save on some level, but you don't want to see it.
James says,
"Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him." (James 1:12).
James says we have to endure temptation in order to receive the crown of life. This applies to me, just as much as it applies to every other believer. It is something I actively have to always continue to work at, just as all other believer should work at doing so as to receive the crown of life (salvation).
Yet, you believe the carnal Christian is automatically saved even if they do not endure temptation. For you said in another thread that the carnal Christian is saved by God's grace (See this post here). This means that you believe that a believer can sin and still be saved. So when you talk of repentance it really doesn't mean anything or have any kind of real merit.
True repentance is seeking forgiveness with the Lord Jesus Christ, and the natural fruits of repentance is good deeds and holy living. If good deeds and holy living is not present, then one is just paying lip service to GOD and they are not really sorry about their sins towards Him. For example: If a man cheats on his wife and he just says he is sorry to her and he does not stop cheating on her, then he is not really sorry and she will most likely divorce or leave him because he is being unfaithful in the marriage. It is the same with GOD. If a person is disloyal to GOD, then they are going to reap what they sow (Disloyalty or rebellion against GOD leads to destruction). For it was a lack of obedience to God's command that led to the mess that mankind is now in.
But that's not what I believe the Bible teaches. The Bible teaches that there are two different kinds of works of GOD in the salvation process. The 1st work of God is God's grace (which says we access by faith in Christ without works), and the 2nd work of God is the work of Sanctification so as to make us holy.
In regards to the 1st work of God (God's grace through faith in Christ): It is appropriately called "a work of God" because Jesus calls believing in Him the work of God in John 6:28-29; However, while Jesus labels this as a work of God that we must do, at the heart, God grace through faith is not based on works but on grace and faith because when a person first accepts Jesus as their Savior, and they believe in His death and resurrection on their behalf, and they seek forgiveness with Him, it involves His grace, mercy, and redemption (and not the following of the whole of the Law in order to be made righteous with GOD). In that moment of time when they call upon the name of the Lord to be saved and they are forgiven of their past sin, it does not involve a major effort on their part (works) but it involves God's grace through faith (belief) in Christ. Paul relates Ephesians 2:8-9 with accepting Christ. For in Ephesians 2:1, he said that we have been quickened. Being quickened is a one time event. Paul says that being saved by God's grace is like a gift. The receiving of a gift happens one time. Ephesians 3:17, Paul tells his readers that Christ may dwell in their hearts by faith. This is a one time event. So Paul is referring to "Initial Salvation" here.
In regards to the 2nd work of God (The work of God done through us in the Sanctification Process): This always follows God's grace. These two works are not in conflict with each other but they work in harmony together (See: Ephesians 5:25-27, Titus 2:11-12) (Romans 5:21). In fact, 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says GOD has chosen us to salvation through: (a) Belief in the truth, and (b) By the Sanctification of the Spirit.
A blind squirrel can even stumble upon a nut every once in a while. Catholics believe in the Trinity, that does not mean I am Catholic just because I believe in the Trinity. Nor does it mean the Trinity is not true just because Catholics teach it.
I see "Belief Alone-ism" as similar to what the Jews believed. They believed that just because they were sons of Abraham, that they were in favor by GOD (i.e. saved).
For John the Baptist condemned them for their boasting that Abraham was their father vs. bringing forth deeds (fruit) befitting of repentance (after they sought forgiveness with God).
7 "But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father [i.e. Belief Alone-ism]: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire." (Matthew 3:7-10).
Jesus said to the Jews who said "Abraham is our father,"
"If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham." (John 8:39).
It is the same song I hear today. "I am a child of GOD because I believe in the finished work of the cross or I have a belief alone on Jesus." But if Jesus was physically among the churches of today (hypothetically speaking), it is quite possible that Jesus would say (something along the lines) to the churches today who boast in such phrases, "if you are a child of GOD, you would do the works of a child of GOD." For 1 John 3:10 says, "In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."
Anyways, I am going to stop here because the post is getting too long as it is. I will try to reply to the rest of what you had written as time allows.
Blessings to you in the Lord (even though we disagree strongly on what the Bible says in regards to Soteriology).
lastly, this entire argument I worded already in a previous post (one of three), that you did not address....so please adress this post before we can move on in this discussion:
Is salvation by grace alone? Or faith alone? Or grace through faith? or by faith plus repentance?
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