Is salvation by grace alone? Or faith alone? Or grace through faith? or by faith plus repentance?

How are we saved.

  • saved by works, merit, obedience, performance morally speaking, plus faith

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • saved by works of the law, plus faith

    Votes: 0 0.0%

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    29
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createdtoworship

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Well, first, your post here offers no context for Galatians 5:2, and Galatians 5:4 (Which are the verses I was originally talking about).

Second, You define "repentance" as turning away from sin. The problem with your view of repentance here is that you don't realize that turning away from sin is an action of some kind or something that you do. Any effort of any kind you do for GOD is a work. So you are asserting that works save on some level, but you don't want to see it.

James says,
"Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him." (James 1:12).

James says we have to endure temptation in order to receive the crown of life. This applies to me, just as much as it applies to every other believer. It is something I actively have to always continue to work at, just as all other believer should work at doing so as to receive the crown of life (salvation).

Yet, you believe the carnal Christian is automatically saved even if they do not endure temptation. For you said in another thread that the carnal Christian is saved by God's grace (See this post here). This means that you believe that a believer can sin and still be saved. So when you talk of repentance it really doesn't mean anything or have any kind of real merit.

True repentance is seeking forgiveness with the Lord Jesus Christ, and the natural fruits of repentance is good deeds and holy living. If good deeds and holy living is not present, then one is just paying lip service to GOD and they are not really sorry about their sins towards Him. For example: If a man cheats on his wife and he just says he is sorry to her and he does not stop cheating on her, then he is not really sorry and she will most likely divorce or leave him because he is being unfaithful in the marriage. It is the same with GOD. If a person is disloyal to GOD, then they are going to reap what they sow (Disloyalty or rebellion against GOD leads to destruction). For it was a lack of obedience to God's command that led to the mess that mankind is now in.



But that's not what I believe the Bible teaches. The Bible teaches that there are two different kinds of works of GOD in the salvation process. The 1st work of God is God's grace (which says we access by faith in Christ without works), and the 2nd work of God is the work of Sanctification so as to make us holy.

In regards to the 1st work of God (God's grace through faith in Christ): It is appropriately called "a work of God" because Jesus calls believing in Him the work of God in John 6:28-29; However, while Jesus labels this as a work of God that we must do, at the heart, God grace through faith is not based on works but on grace and faith because when a person first accepts Jesus as their Savior, and they believe in His death and resurrection on their behalf, and they seek forgiveness with Him, it involves His grace, mercy, and redemption (and not the following of the whole of the Law in order to be made righteous with GOD). In that moment of time when they call upon the name of the Lord to be saved and they are forgiven of their past sin, it does not involve a major effort on their part (works) but it involves God's grace through faith (belief) in Christ. Paul relates Ephesians 2:8-9 with accepting Christ. For in Ephesians 2:1, he said that we have been quickened. Being quickened is a one time event. Paul says that being saved by God's grace is like a gift. The receiving of a gift happens one time. Ephesians 3:17, Paul tells his readers that Christ may dwell in their hearts by faith. This is a one time event. So Paul is referring to "Initial Salvation" here.

In regards to the 2nd work of God (The work of God done through us in the Sanctification Process): This always follows God's grace. These two works are not in conflict with each other but they work in harmony together (See: Ephesians 5:25-27, Titus 2:11-12) (Romans 5:21). In fact, 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says GOD has chosen us to salvation through: (a) Belief in the truth, and (b) By the Sanctification of the Spirit.



A blind squirrel can even stumble upon a nut every once in a while. Catholics believe in the Trinity, that does not mean I am Catholic just because I believe in the Trinity. Nor does it mean the Trinity is not true just because Catholics teach it.

I see "Belief Alone-ism" as similar to what the Jews believed. They believed that just because they were sons of Abraham, that they were in favor by GOD (i.e. saved).

For John the Baptist condemned them for their boasting that Abraham was their father vs. bringing forth deeds (fruit) befitting of repentance (after they sought forgiveness with God).

7 "But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father [i.e. Belief Alone-ism]: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire." (Matthew 3:7-10).​

Jesus said to the Jews who said "Abraham is our father,"

"If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham." (John 8:39).

It is the same song I hear today. "I am a child of GOD because I believe in the finished work of the cross or I have a belief alone on Jesus." But if Jesus was physically among the churches of today (hypothetically speaking), it is quite possible that Jesus would say (something along the lines) to the churches today who boast in such phrases, "if you are a child of GOD, you would do the works of a child of GOD." For 1 John 3:10 says, "In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."

Anyways, I am going to stop here because the post is getting too long as it is. I will try to reply to the rest of what you had written as time allows.

Blessings to you in the Lord (even though we disagree strongly on what the Bible says in regards to Soteriology).
Sir you refuse to answer my main objection. If you are saved by works, do you admit that your works are perfect before God? IF not, then please provide evidence that though you are saved by works, that God some how grades on a curve and allows you to slip by. After all Jesus was saved by works, but He did so perfectly. So to say you have works that are perfect and that actually merit eternal life is quite disturbing. In fact that is why I mentioned jehovah's witnesses and mormons, because what you are teaching is not really orthodoxy. It's not the christian message handed down by our fathers through out the ages. Salvic repentance is taught among the church fathers, and salvation by repenting of one's sins and turning in faith to Jesus, not of ourselves, not of works, but of faith, grace, and complete trust; but works righteousness is not taught among the founding fathers.

lastly, this entire argument I worded already in a previous post (one of three), that you did not address....so please adress this post before we can move on in this discussion:

Is salvation by grace alone? Or faith alone? Or grace through faith? or by faith plus repentance?
 
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createdtoworship

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Well, first, your post here offers no context for Galatians 5:2, and Galatians 5:4 (Which are the verses I was originally talking about).

Second, You define "repentance" as turning away from sin. The problem with your view of repentance here is that you don't realize that turning away from sin is an action of some kind or something that you do. Any effort of any kind you do for GOD is a work. So you are asserting that works save on some level, but you don't want to see it.

James says,
"Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him." (James 1:12).

James says we have to endure temptation in order to receive the crown of life. This applies to me, just as much as it applies to every other believer. It is something I actively have to always continue to work at, just as all other believer should work at doing so as to receive the crown of life (salvation).

Yet, you believe the carnal Christian is automatically saved even if they do not endure temptation. For you said in another thread that the carnal Christian is saved by God's grace (See this post here). This means that you believe that a believer can sin and still be saved. So when you talk of repentance it really doesn't mean anything or have any kind of real merit.

True repentance is seeking forgiveness with the Lord Jesus Christ, and the natural fruits of repentance is good deeds and holy living. If good deeds and holy living is not present, then one is just paying lip service to GOD and they are not really sorry about their sins towards Him. For example: If a man cheats on his wife and he just says he is sorry to her and he does not stop cheating on her, then he is not really sorry and she will most likely divorce or leave him because he is being unfaithful in the marriage. It is the same with GOD. If a person is disloyal to GOD, then they are going to reap what they sow (Disloyalty or rebellion against GOD leads to destruction). For it was a lack of obedience to God's command that led to the mess that mankind is now in.



But that's not what I believe the Bible teaches. The Bible teaches that there are two different kinds of works of GOD in the salvation process. The 1st work of God is God's grace (which says we access by faith in Christ without works), and the 2nd work of God is the work of Sanctification so as to make us holy.

In regards to the 1st work of God (God's grace through faith in Christ): It is appropriately called "a work of God" because Jesus calls believing in Him the work of God in John 6:28-29; However, while Jesus labels this as a work of God that we must do, at the heart, God grace through faith is not based on works but on grace and faith because when a person first accepts Jesus as their Savior, and they believe in His death and resurrection on their behalf, and they seek forgiveness with Him, it involves His grace, mercy, and redemption (and not the following of the whole of the Law in order to be made righteous with GOD). In that moment of time when they call upon the name of the Lord to be saved and they are forgiven of their past sin, it does not involve a major effort on their part (works) but it involves God's grace through faith (belief) in Christ. Paul relates Ephesians 2:8-9 with accepting Christ. For in Ephesians 2:1, he said that we have been quickened. Being quickened is a one time event. Paul says that being saved by God's grace is like a gift. The receiving of a gift happens one time. Ephesians 3:17, Paul tells his readers that Christ may dwell in their hearts by faith. This is a one time event. So Paul is referring to "Initial Salvation" here.

In regards to the 2nd work of God (The work of God done through us in the Sanctification Process): This always follows God's grace. These two works are not in conflict with each other but they work in harmony together (See: Ephesians 5:25-27, Titus 2:11-12) (Romans 5:21). In fact, 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says GOD has chosen us to salvation through: (a) Belief in the truth, and (b) By the Sanctification of the Spirit.



A blind squirrel can even stumble upon a nut every once in a while. Catholics believe in the Trinity, that does not mean I am Catholic just because I believe in the Trinity. Nor does it mean the Trinity is not true just because Catholics teach it.

I see "Belief Alone-ism" as similar to what the Jews believed. They believed that just because they were sons of Abraham, that they were in favor by GOD (i.e. saved).

For John the Baptist condemned them for their boasting that Abraham was their father vs. bringing forth deeds (fruit) befitting of repentance (after they sought forgiveness with God).

7 "But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father [i.e. Belief Alone-ism]: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire." (Matthew 3:7-10).​

Jesus said to the Jews who said "Abraham is our father,"

"If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham." (John 8:39).

It is the same song I hear today. "I am a child of GOD because I believe in the finished work of the cross or I have a belief alone on Jesus." But if Jesus was physically among the churches of today (hypothetically speaking), it is quite possible that Jesus would say (something along the lines) to the churches today who boast in such phrases, "if you are a child of GOD, you would do the works of a child of GOD." For 1 John 3:10 says, "In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."

Anyways, I am going to stop here because the post is getting too long as it is. I will try to reply to the rest of what you had written as time allows.

Blessings to you in the Lord (even though we disagree strongly on what the Bible says in regards to Soteriology).
Sir I again wish to introduce you to proper hermeneutics. I should know because I used improper hermeneutics for probably ten years or more. One of my favorite theologians before, was lewis sperry chafer (a free grace theologian), this is what He says:

"PUBLICANS AND SINNERS" were not Gentiles. Publicans were Israelites under the covenant "made unto the fathers" who had turned traitor to their nation to the extent of becoming tax-gatherers for Rome.

"SINNERS" were Israelites under the same covenant who had failed to present the sacrifices for sin as prescribed by the law of Moses. An Israelite was counted "blameless" before the law when he had provided the required offerings. Thus Paul could say of himself concerning his former position as a Jew under the law: "Touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless." The Apostle is not claiming sinless perfection: he is testifying to the fact that he had always been faithful in providing the sacrifices prescribed in the law of Moses. "

both quotes from : He that is spiritual, salvation, dispensationalism-by L.S. Chafer

it sounds real good initially and somewhat intellectually stimulating, but it is a very horrible study of what the Bible actually says. Are "publicans and sinners" only jews? No one else accept jews can sin? That is the implication. He is using context yes, but He is forgetting that context is only a tool. God wrote the Bible not just for the apostles that wrote it, but for the church through the ages. The second quote mentions "sinners" were only those who failed to present sacrifices for sin in the temple? Is that really what the term "sinner" meant in the new testament? So you can see what I mean by having a proper take on long term and short term fulfillment as well as immediate, or local context, and the audience as well that would read and apply the same word thousands of years later. I hope this makes sense, because you mention that law in the Bible only refers to the law of circumcision. When there are many many laws in the Bible, every exhortative verse is technically a command, a law, a rule. circumcision is simply one type of law. Does that make sense?

Now one disclaimer, I am not saying chafer is not intelligent, or not saved, or not a good theologian, He was actually one of the smarter more accurate theologians in our history. He was a major contributor to modern day dispensational thought and systematic theology. He just had basic principles of the gospel completely backwards. Which is real easy to do when you are looking to make the Bible fit your view (free grace) and not the view to fit the Bible. Isagesis, versus exagesus.
 
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It's by grace not of works, lest we can boast (ephesians 2:9)... See we are not saved by Faith AND works,

Ephesians 2:8-9 says we are saved by God's grace through faith like a gift without works, and then Ephesians 2:10 says that we are created unto Christ Jesus for good works of which God has ordained beforehand that we should walk in them. Not "maybe walk in good works" because they are optional. Paul is telling us the proper way of dealing with works in Ephesians 2:8-10. We do not think that we are saved by "Works Alone without God's grace." (Ephesians 2:8-9), but works of GOD move through the believer after they are saved by God's grace (Ephesians 2:10). It's grace and then sanctification. This is the order that Paul is setting for us here.

In fact, we see this order through the rest of Scripture. Titus 2:11-12 says the grace of God teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously godly in this present world. Ephesians 5:25-27 says that the reason Christ died for us (Grace) was so that He could sanctify the church with the washing of the water of the Word (Scripture) so that He may present to Himself a church that was holy and without blemish (and not a church that is unholy). Romans 5:20 says grace abounds, but Romans 5:21 says grace reigns (rules) in righteousness (i.e. righteous living). So it is Grace, and then Sanctification. You cannot get around that fact. It is what the Bible teaches. Ephesians 2:8-9 is God's grace through faith without works; And Ephesians 2:10 is Sanctification or works that follow. Ephesians 2:8-9 is refuting Works Alone Salvationism without God's grace.

Again, the man of GOD who believes GOD does the good work in them is going to boast in GOD alone and not in themselves. This is what I believe no matter what you may protest otherwise in your saying that I believe in boasting in myself on some level. For I believe that I cannot do good alone and only GOD can do the good through me. This is why I cannot boast in myself and I will refuse to boast in any work that is a "man directed work without GOD."
This is what Ephesians 2:9 is condemning. Man Directed Works that men are boasting in themselves for all to see. Ephesians 2:10 are GOD directed works. They are the kind of works that are done through me.

I see Ephesians 2:8-9 as the 1st work of GOD or as one salvation process (Justification), and I see Ephesians 2:10 as the 2nd work of GOD or as the next salvation process (Sanctification). They are two different kinds of works of GOD or they are two different kinds of processes in God's plan of salvation. TWO and not one. This is where you get tripped up because you see salvation as only as one process or one kind of work by GOD. We have to be good detectives when reading Scripture and accept everything that it says.

Currently you believe that Sanctification or good works does not play a part in the salvation process. One of my upcoming posts to you will attempt to show you that such thinking is simply not true. The Bible does teach that Sanctification and or works is tied to salvation.
 
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@gradyll

Please take note that I am only taking your words one piece at a time here and I am not rushing through your words and ignoring them. I want to give your words a proper reply with Scripture. So if I have not read all of your words within your posts, my apologies. It is going to take time to get through your lengthy posts because I have a lot to say with Scripture in regards to your belief that I believe is highly unbiblical and immoral. Please do not take offense when I say that Eternal Security or Belief Alone-ism is immoral. I am attacking the belief here and not you. So please do not take it personally in any way, my friend.

Blessings to you in the Lord today;
And may you please be well.
 
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But no where in the Bible does it say that those works somehow merit eternal life,

Not true, my friend.
The Bible teaches that...


After we are saved by God's grace,
God’s works (done through us) are also required as a part of the Salvation Process:



(Here are a List of Verses):


“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18).

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, "(1 Timothy 6:3-4).

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:1-2).

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).

"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).

“...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

“There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:1).

“This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. (Galatians 5:16).

“That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit (Romans 8:4).

"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).

"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).

“If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15:10).

And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.” (Luke 10:25-28).

“...if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.” (Matthew 19:17-19).

"And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38).

”If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? (Matthew 16:24-26).

"...No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:62).

“Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.” (Matthew 5:8).

"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).

"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).

“And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:29).

”And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” (Revelation 22:12-15).

"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).

“For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

"...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).

“Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” (Philippians 2:12).

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;” (Titus 2:11-12).

“...And having become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end, everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22).

”Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” (Matthew 25:34-40).

“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:41-46).

”His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.” (Matthew 25:21).

”And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 25:30).

”Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation [i.e. as the people of Israel did when they rebelled against him in the desert.”] (Hebrews 3:12-15) (Note: The explanation on verse 15 in brackets is taken from the Living Bible Translation (TLB)).

”Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)” (Hebrews 3:10-11).

”Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. (Hebrews 4:11).

“In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

“He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God” (John 8:47).
 
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james says we are saved by a faith THAT works. If we have a true faith it will work.

Okay. Follow the logic of this. If you truly believe that we are saved by a Faith that works, this means that faith will alway have good works, right? This means works play a part in the salvation process because you cannot have a faith that does not work.

For a faith that does not have works is a false faith and it is not a saving faith. So works help to show a person's faith (James 2:18). James says faith without works is dead (James 2:17). A dead faith cannot save anyone. In fact, James relates to the kind of faith that has no works with the faith of demons (James 2:19).

Also, James essentially says works are for salvation (i.e. the Sanctification Process after we are saved by God's grace through faith without works - which is a different process called "Justification"). How so? Well, James 2:24 he says that we are justified by works and not by faith alone. Please take note that the same word "justified" is referred to both faith and works. Surely you believe being "justified by faith" is dealing with salvation. So if this is the case, then you must also take the word "justified by works" to mean the same thing. So Paul is not using the word "justified" in two different ways here. Justified means to be declared just or righteous.

Further proof?

The context.

James 1:21 says,

"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).
 
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...here is a small quote I read today: When the Gospel has conditions attached to it, it is no longer good news ..." That rings true to me. I don't know about you.

According to some Eternal Security proponents, you are adding conditions in the fact that you said that repentance is also needed as a part of salvation. You believe repentance is turning away from sin (Which is in some small part true), but it is not exactly the entire or full truth on repentance. Repentance in and of itself is "seeking forgiveness with the Lord Jesus Christ" (See: Luke 17:3, Matthew 3:6, Matthew 3:8, Acts of the Apostles 8:22, Luke 15:6, Luke 15:10, Luke 15:21-24, and the "Fruits of repentance" are good works and or living holy (See: Luke 3:8, and Acts of the Apostles 26:20). The "good works or living holy part" is making good on repentance or one's prayer towards the Lord Jesus Christ in saying that we are sorry for sinning against Him. If there is no change in our life in living for the Lord, then this means we are not really sorry. For Judas was sorry that he betrayed the Lord. But Judas had a worldly sorrow and not a godly sorrow because he ended up hanging himself (cf. 2 Corinthians 7:10). Judas could have sought forgiveness with the Lord Jesus Christ, but he didn't do that.

Sure, it may sound like good news that there are no conditions attached, but usually things that are too good to be true in life, are usually not true. Judas should have been saved by the good news if there was no conditions attached in believing in Jesus as one's Savior but we know that in the end, Judas was not saved.

George Sodini surely believed there was no conditions attached to the gospel. He believed future sin was forgiven him. He took this belief so seriously that he wrote in his own suicide letter that he would still be saved by Jesus despite his admittance to his future crimes of killing a bunch of people and then taking his own life. He sure thought the gospel was good news with no conditions attached. But look where it got him. Look at the fruit of that kind of belief that he had. It did not end well for him.

Also, many have committed suicide because they think that Jesus will save them based on Eternal Security and or Belief Alone-ism. For if salvation is not by works, then you can do whatever you like and be saved because you have a belief alone on Jesus. This is at the heart of the problem of this belief. But folks try to borrow from the "Sanctification Category" in some way and say that it is not for salvation but it is necessary that it will be there in some way so as not to make their belief look so bad. But it is not true holiness or holy living (after being saved by GOD's grace). He that does righteousness is righteous (1 John 3:7). That is true holiness. To say that the carnal Christian is saved is to be in violation of what 1 John 3:7 says (Among many other verses).
 
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Sir you refuse to answer my main objection. If you are saved by works, do you admit that your works are perfect before God? IF not, then please provide evidence that though you are saved by works, that God some how grades on a curve and allows you to slip by. After all Jesus was saved by works, but He did so perfectly. So to say you have works that are perfect and that actually merit eternal life is quite disturbing. In fact that is why I mentioned jehovah's witnesses and mormons, because what you are teaching is not really orthodoxy. It's not the christian message handed down by our fathers through out the ages. Salvic repentance is taught among the church fathers, and salvation by repenting of one's sins and turning in faith to Jesus, not of ourselves, not of works, but of faith, grace, and complete trust; but works righteousness is not taught among the founding fathers.

lastly, this entire argument I worded already in a previous post (one of three), that you did not address....so please adress this post before we can move on in this discussion:

Is salvation by grace alone? Or faith alone? Or grace through faith? or by faith plus repentance?

See my recent post #85.
 
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I think the confusion here is a lack in basic hermeneutics, it's ok. We all have our strengths and weakness, my weakness is my temper and my lack of a good memory for example. And sometimes pride. But those things I am working on with the Lord. But taking a word "say law" and applying it only to circumcision breaks basic rules of hermeneutics. Let me explain how other groups have also broken basic laws of hermeneutics and hopefully you can then see this error in your own reasoning....
Sir I again wish to introduce you to proper hermeneutics. I should know because I used improper hermeneutics for probably ten years or more. One of my favorite theologians before, was lewis sperry chafer (a free grace theologian), this is what He says:

"PUBLICANS AND SINNERS" were not Gentiles. Publicans were Israelites under the covenant "made unto the fathers" who had turned traitor to their nation to the extent of becoming tax-gatherers for Rome.

"SINNERS" were Israelites under the same covenant who had failed to present the sacrifices for sin as prescribed by the law of Moses. An Israelite was counted "blameless" before the law when he had provided the required offerings. Thus Paul could say of himself concerning his former position as a Jew under the law: "Touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless." The Apostle is not claiming sinless perfection: he is testifying to the fact that he had always been faithful in providing the sacrifices prescribed in the law of Moses. "

both quotes from : He that is spiritual, salvation, dispensationalism-by L.S. Chafer

it sounds real good initially and somewhat intellectually stimulating, but it is a very horrible study of what the Bible actually says. Are "publicans and sinners" only jews? No one else accept jews can sin? That is the implication. He is using context yes, but He is forgetting that context is only a tool. God wrote the Bible not just for the apostles that wrote it, but for the church through the ages. The second quote mentions "sinners" were only those who failed to present sacrifices for sin in the temple? Is that really what the term "sinner" meant in the new testament? So you can see what I mean by having a proper take on long term and short term fulfillment as well as immediate, or local context, and the audience as well that would read and apply the same word thousands of years later. I hope this makes sense, because you mention that law in the Bible only refers to the law of circumcision. When there are many many laws in the Bible, every exhortative verse is technically a command, a law, a rule. circumcision is simply one type of law. Does that make sense?

Now one disclaimer, I am not saying chafer is not intelligent, or not saved, or not a good theologian, He was actually one of the smarter more accurate theologians in our history. He was a major contributor to modern day dispensational thought and systematic theology. He just had basic principles of the gospel completely backwards. Which is real easy to do when you are looking to make the Bible fit your view (free grace) and not the view to fit the Bible. Isagesis, versus exagesus.

Yeah, that guy is in error for sure on that particular issue in the Bible.
But I don't think you understand what I am trying to say.

If a believer sees World of Warcraft as a sinful video game and he thinks video games in general (and not in every case) can be sinful and or not beneficial to the life of a Christian, he could speak against video games in general as in reference to his argument against World of Warcraft. This is what I believe Paul is doing. Plus, I also believe we are not under the Law is a reference to the 613 laws within the Law of Moses as a WHOLE or CONTRACT. Sort of like if one buys a house, they have a contract, and if they do not like the contract, they can have certain things changed in the contract to their liking. If the seller agrees to the changes in the contract, that does not mean there are not some things in the old contract that will remain the same. It is the same with the Old Law (for the Moral Law (like do not kill, do not steal, do not covet, etc.) has carried over into the New Covenant). Anyways, Paul is saying that we are not under the Old Law anymore. Hence, why circumcision for a requirement of being a part of GOD's covenant and kingdom now is no longer necessary. Paul is fighting ultimately against the heresy of Circumcision Salvationism, but he is also arguing against trying to be justified by the whole of the Old Law (Just as the believer who is arguing against World of Warcraft may make a speech against how video games in general are sinful as a way to prove his case that World of Warcraft is a bad game to play for any person (Especially believers).

Side Note:

I was not refusing to answer anything. Sorry I did not give a reply before on all of your words yet. I worked yesterday, and so my time was limited. I also do not want to rush through your post in what you said. I hope you understand.

Blessings to you in the Lord this fine day that He has made.
 
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Hyper dispensationalists apply huge portions of the beatitudes to one group of people instead of the church through the ages(they believe the beatitudes applies only to the millenial reign for example).

That is very strange, and their view here is definitely not Biblical.

You said:
(I am a dispensationalist btw, not all of it is bad),

I am a Dispensationalist except for the Faith Alone part.
I see Israel as having certain promises given to her that still need to be fulfilled, but I believe salvation is the same for both the Jew and the Gentile. For we are both under the New Covenant with new commands. The Old Law is no longer in effect (contractually speaking as a whole - even though the Moral Law has carried over into the New Covenant).

Note: The Moral Law existed even before the written Law of Moses. The Moral Law (Romans 2:14) came into existence after the fall of Adam and Eve when they received the knowledge of good and evil. For by nature and instinct, most men know that murder, theft, sleeping with one's parents, and or not loving others is wrong. Granted, men's hearts can be darkened by sin. But many unbelievers are aware of how certain sins are wrong.

secondly you have replacement theologians who take all the verses of the old testament that talk about the promises of Israel, and apply them to the church.

Yes, I am aware of Replacement Theology and it is not biblical.

Which as I will explain with near and far fulfillment, that this too is a violation of hermeneutical laws. Thirdly you have yourself who believes that because they were talking about circumcision in one verse that that means that in the previous verse it must be limited to only circumcision. See circumcision was the example given. But no where in that verse or any other does it say that law in the Bible only refers to circumcision.

Well, again, to be clear on what I am talking about, I am not saying that every time the word "law" appears it is referring to circumcision exclusively alone, but Paul does have circumcision in mind or view. He is speaking against the Old Law as a part of his larger argument here to refute "Circumcision Salvationism." But yes, Paul is also arguing against the Old Law as a whole (Which is no long in effect as a covenant or contract). It can be taken to be read that way, as well. But the problem of Christians thinking they had to be circumcised to be saved is also in view.

  1. Galatians 2:3 says, “But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:”

  2. Galatians 5:2 says, “Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.”

  3. Galatians 5:6 says, “For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.”

  4. Galatians 6:15 (NLT) says, “It doesn't matter whether we have been circumcised or not. What counts is whether we have been transformed into a new creation.”

  5. 1 Corinthians 7:18-19 says, 18 For instance, a man who was circumcised before he became a believer should not try to reverse it. And the man who was uncircumcised when he became a believer should not be circumcised now. (NLT) 19 “Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.” (NASB)

  6. Romans 2:28-29 says, “For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.”

  7. Romans 3:1 says, “What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?”

  8. Romans 4:9-12 says, ”9 “Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.”

  9. Acts of the Apostles 21:21 says, “And they are informed of you, that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.”

In fact, the Jerusalem Council gives a clear description of the heresy of Circumcision Salvationism:


  1. Acts of the Apostles 15:1 says, “And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.”

  2. Acts of the Apostles 15:5 says, But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.”....................................................................................................................................................................................................
  3. Acts of the Apostles 15:24 says, “Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:”


I hope this helps.
May good things be upon you in the Lord today.
 
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This has also been called the "dual fulfillment of prophecy" see more here: Dual fulfillment - Wikipedia

I am aware of double fulfillment prophecy for a long time now.
I have even talked about it before and used in my arguments when talking with other Christians online.

You said:
Most people when reading the Bible will only think about the near fulfillments of passages, this is one problem you may have just reading through the Bible, unless you have cross reference tools, topic bible analysis etc, you may not be thinking about all the passages in the Bible on a topic such as "law."

I have talked numerous times on how we must use context, cross references, and or do keyword searches, pray to GOD for the understanding, etc. in order to understand the Bible.

However, please take no offense, but I believe there is one component you are leaving out in your interpretation of Scripture. Most do not add it because most today do not want to do so. Scripture also has to be interpreted in defense of upholding Morality or God's goodness. This is where I believe Calvinists, and Non-Calvinist Eternal Security proponents (and or Belief Alone Proponents) fail. Sure, some of them may uphold morality on some level, but I believe it is not on the full proper level or standard based on God's Word and in common decency or goodness. I believe we are living in the last days, and 2 Timothy 3:1-9 suggests that many have a form of godliness and they deny the power thereof (Note: I am not referring to you personally here, but I am speaking generally of the adherents of a particular belief). Anyways, this means there are certain people who may be for some small level of holiness, but they deny the power of truly living holy lives. Why else would Paul say in 2 Corinthians 7:1 that we are to cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of GOD? In Belief Alone-ism, there is no true fear of GOD. There is no perfecting holiness in the fear of GOD. They think they are already perfected by Christ's sacrifice by simply believing on Him. So if you want to talk hermeneutics, it begins with addressing all of Scripture like 2 Corinthians 7:1, and other verses like it.

You said:
I could post from nave's topical Bible on law,

This one?

full


https://www.amazon.com/Naves-Topical-Bible-comprehensive-Associated/dp/091700602X/

I am curious, because I would like to check it out.

In any event, good day to you in the Lord.
 
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I simply suggest that in the passage you are talking about that circumcision is an example of law, (sort of like a near fulfillment of a prophecy if you would), but it's not the far fulfillment of that passage.

I am aware that circumcision is an example of Law. Again, I believe Paul was arguing against the whole of the Old Law (Which you can apply to your life by not following the whole of the Old Law) but Paul's argument against the Old Law was was a larger part of his argument so as to help fight against the heresy of "Circumcision Salvationism." The tidbits or breadcrumbs of his speaking against circumcision is the key to understanding that fact (Unless of course you want to ignore verses like Galatians 5:2, and Romans 3:1 or something).

You said:
That passage refers to all law soteriologically.

Which passage?

Ephesians 2:8-9?
Galatians 5:2-4?
Some other passage?

In either case, both of these passages and other ones that speak of works or the Law generically by Paul are referring to the Old Law and to Law Alone Salvationism without God's grace. For Ephesians 2:8-9 refers to Initial Salvationism in the fact that gifts are received one time, and Ephesians 2:10 gives us the proper order of works (Sanctification) after we are saved by God's grace through faith without works (Justification). Paul is trying to get the Ephesians to stop thinking in terms of salvation by Law Alone-ism without God's grace. He is saying works (Sanctification) follow being saved by God's grace (Justification).

You said:
When I read the Bible and I go across john 3:16, "for God so loved the world that He gave His one and only son..." The near fulfillment or immediate interpretation of that passage, (the context if you would) is the jewish world, and the gentile world in existence when the Bible was written. If we only limited our hermeneutics to the immediate interpretation of that passage, no one could be saved, and most of the Bible would only apply to localized jewish congregations and gentile converts of the first century. God's love in john 3:16, didn't just mean the Jews or gentiles in the context of the passage, but everyone who would ever come to be. So we must also include far fulfillment of prophecy, and also include all audiences and implications of verses not just the jews for example. I hope this makes sense to you.

For GOD so loved the WORLD. The immediate fulfillment of that verse is for all people by the use of the word "world." God's plan all along was to save Gentiles. The Israelites were supposed to be a light unto the Gentiles, but seeing they failed in their mission, the greatest Israelite of all time did so on their behalf. JESUS. The Lord Jesus made it possible for the Gentiles to become spiritual Israelites under a New Covenant with New Commands. Note: Yes, I am aware that Jesus did not go first to the Gentiles, and He sent out his disciples to the people of Israel but we must also take into consideration that by the great faith of the Canaanite woman, her family member was healed, too.

I don't expect this to convince you, however I pray that some others that are reading this forum, will be convinced by this explanation,

I don't expect that what I say with God's Word to convince you, either.
Surely it is not a coincidence you are not explaining certain verses I have put forth that refutes your belief here. Verses like 1 John 1:7, 2 Corinthians 7:1, Titus 2:11-12, etc.;
But I am confident that those who are honest with themselves in seeking the truth will see what I am saying with Scripture. Those who are in the majority of the church world who believe as you do, will simply keep believing that way (Despite what Scripture says).

You said:
as I am fearful that your sort of theology of works based righteousness

To live holy as a part of being in God's Kingdom is to be feared?
Jesus surely taught it.
Jesus said if one does not forgive, they will not be forgiven (Matthew 6:15).
Jesus said that if one looks upon a woman in lust, their whole body can be cast into hell fire (Matthew 5:28-20).
John said that whoever hates his brother is like a murderer, and no murderer has eternal life abiding in him (1 John 3:15).
John also says,
"He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him. But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness..." (1 John 2:10-11). This is important to understand because we have to walk in the light in order for the blood of Jesus to cleanse us from all sin (See: 1 John 1:7). To walk in the light is to love your brother. To love your brother is a work.

"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:10).

Not sure if you caught what John said here in 1 John 3:10. It says he that does not righteousness is not of God. Yet, you want me to believe that works righteousness is bad. Okay. Believe as you wish. I will trust the Bible and not you.

You said:
is not different than other christian cults.

This is an Ad hominem. Catholics believe in the Trinity, it does not make me a Catholic just because I believe in the Trinity. Truth is determined by God's Word, and not by some group of Christians who classify things. Yes, I believe JWs and Mormons are wrong on many levels. But not everything that false professors state are always wrong. Sometimes false groups can preach some small sliver of the truth. Again, a blind squirrel can find a nut.
 
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Not true, my friend.
The Bible teaches that...


After we are saved by God's grace,
God’s works (done through us) are also required as a part of the Salvation Process:
sir let me highlight the verses that speak about salvation, most of these by and large are not even mentioning salvation. I made this same mistake in the past before, usually it happens when we take lists from outside sources and have not actually studied them, but I am not saying you did this. THat was what I did when I made this same mistake. Anyway, I will adress only the ones talking about salvation ok? To make this faster.

Here are the verses you posted in your comment, I will repost them and highlight them, if they are not highlighted they don't specifically mention salvation at all and are tossed out:

(Here are a List of Verses):


“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18).

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, "(1 Timothy 6:3-4).

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:1-2).

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).

"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).

“...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

“There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:1).

“This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. (Galatians 5:16).

“That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit (Romans 8:4).

"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).

"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).

“If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15:10).

And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.” (Luke 10:25-28).

“...if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.” (Matthew 19:17-19).

"And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38).


”If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? (Matthew 16:24-26).

"...No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:62).

“Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.” (Matthew 5:8).

"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).

"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).

“And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:29).

”And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” (Revelation 22:12-15).

"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).

“For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

"...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).

“Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” (Philippians 2:12).

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;” (Titus 2:11-12).

“...And having become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end, everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22).

”Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” (Matthew 25:34-40).

“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:41-46).


”His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.” (Matthew 25:21).

”And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 25:30).

”Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation [i.e. as the people of Israel did when they rebelled against him in the desert.”] (Hebrews 3:12-15) (Note: The explanation on verse 15 in brackets is taken from the Living Bible Translation (TLB)).

”Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)” (Hebrews 3:10-11).

”Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. (Hebrews 4:11).

“In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

“He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God” (John 8:47).

so all the green are verses that I believe encompass salvic repentance, turning from some type of idol to the living God. Not works, again as I have said before if these were works then that would contradict ephesians 2 and romans 4. So that cannot possibly be meritting eternal life. Again if we meritted eternal life we could have pride in that exact fact, and pride is a sin. So we would disqualify ourself.

and again you have not addressed my probing questions, if you have meritted eternal life then you have two problems, you either have security that you are christian, or you don't. If you don't then this gospel is not saving you, if you do have security then I have to ask, how are you doing following all of the verses you just posted Above? Are you following them as needed for salvation?

now the blue verses in my opinion are verses of law, that are meant to be a school master. The laws of the Bible in general are meant to be a school master to bring us to Christ, to make us humiliated that we are no good enough to enter life by our works, something that you have yet to learn I guess. :( And in being a school master, you don't shoot your teacher after they teach you, you embrace what they taught and use it to better yourself, just realize in humility that there is no way we can ever merit eternal life.

The orange verses I don't exactly know but some theologians believe parts of the gospels talk about the millenial reign and I would not know if that is the case or not, I typically don't study theology anymore, just the Bible itself. But one down fall of just studying the Bible is that I don't always see unified chain references to verses in other parts of the Bible for one, and so this type of thing I would not know, I could look it up however this weekend if it is important for you to have my exact theory on the yellow verses.

I do believe there is a law of love, love of God and neighbor, and this law summarizes all of the previous laws. I believe that repentance incorporates love of God and man. Again loving others is not a work of righteousness or law, but a response to being loved. Love typically is a response.
 
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createdtoworship

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For GOD so loved the WORLD. The immediate fulfillment of that verse is for all people by the use of the word "world." God's plan all along was to save Gentiles. The Israelites were supposed to be a light unto the Gentiles, but seeing they failed in their mission, the greatest Israelite of all time did so on their behalf. JESUS. The Lord Jesus made it possible for the Gentiles to become spiritual Israelites under a New Covenant with New Commands. Note: Yes, I am aware that Jesus did not go first to the Gentiles, and He sent out his disciples to the people of Israel but we must also take into consideration that by the great faith of the Canaanite woman, her family member was healed, too.

yes with john 3:16 the existing world at the time is the context of the passage. We must use the spirit and it's interpretation to include all of us in that term world. That is sort of what I am implying. Yes context is important, but not really. What is important is the words and how the spirit applies them to our lives. One section of scripture at least 15 verses mention salvation by faith alone, no mention of repentance. Those verses contradict your view completely. I can post them if you like. They contradict my view less. Because I believe repenting involves both a turning from unbelief, and a turning from sin. So believing is actually repenting of unbelief. But I also believe that we must turn from false Gods, idols that we have set up in our life. They can be relationships, or cars, or houses, or money, or possessions, or recreations, or hobbies, or whatever we put in our mind more than God. Turning from those things is not a work of righteousness, it's faith. I am turning from those things because I believe my fulfillment does not happen when I have enough, but when I realize Jesus is enough. I hope you can see the subtle difference. See the mentality you are preaching, a merit based system has it's roots way back to babylon. All religion in the world use the merit based system, and when grace came, even the angels tried to look into this peculiar new form of religion. (1 Peter 1:12 mentions angels did not know about grace before Jesus). So again the free gift of salvation is what diffrentiates all religion in the world and Christianity. I can post an article that talks more about other religions and babylon if you want. I read it last night, it was written 20 years ago just out of college, when I was studying other religions for apologetics. In fact, let me go ahead and post it, so some others can read it if they want. It needs to be proof read and corrected, but you will get the point:

here is the roots of all major religions to babylon:

BABYLON_THE_GREAT_BATTLE.DOC
 
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createdtoworship

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I am aware of double fulfillment prophecy for a long time now.
I have even talked about it before and used in my arguments when talking with other Christians online.



I have talked numerous times on how we must use context, cross references, and or do keyword searches, pray to GOD for the understanding, etc. in order to understand the Bible.

However, please take no offense, but I believe there is one component you are leaving out in your interpretation of Scripture. Most do not add it because most today do not want to do so. Scripture also has to be interpreted in defense of upholding Morality or God's goodness. This is where I believe Calvinists, and Non-Calvinist Eternal Security proponents (and or Belief Alone Proponents) fail. Sure, some of them may uphold morality on some level, but I believe it is not on the full proper level or standard based on God's Word and in common decency or goodness. I believe we are living in the last days, and 2 Timothy 3:1-9 suggests that many have a form of godliness and they deny the power thereof (Note: I am not referring to you personally here, but I am speaking generally of the adherents of a particular belief). Anyways, this means there are certain people who may be for some small level of holiness, but they deny the power of truly living holy lives. Why else would Paul say in 2 Corinthians 7:1 that we are to cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of GOD? In Belief Alone-ism, there is no true fear of GOD. There is no perfecting holiness in the fear of GOD. They think they are already perfected by Christ's sacrifice by simply believing on Him. So if you want to talk hermeneutics, it begins with addressing all of Scripture like 2 Corinthians 7:1, and other verses like it.
Sir I would just like to add this statement: Because the gospel is true, we live IN God's approval, not FOR His approval. We obey God because He loves us, not to get Him to love us ...


This one?

full


https://www.amazon.com/Naves-Topical-Bible-comprehensive-Associated/dp/091700602X/

I am curious, because I would like to check it out.

In any event, good day to you in the Lord.
Yes, that is the classic topical bible, there are others out now. If you are interested in Bible study, there is a powerful free software called "The word software." It's a little tricky to navigate at first, but it's free and you can convert Esword modules to it. In fact I have over 900 modules I have put on a cloud for people to download, they are shareware, and it's over 3 gigabites. I think naves topical bible might be bundled in with it. That is why I mention it. You can find all the modules online, but there is probably half a dozen sites to navigate to find them. Anyway, there are weaknesses of the software. I use something called "logos" software. It's several hundred for a base model. I bought it over 20 years ago, and they keep updating me to the newest version every few years. I bought it a version 3, I think they are at 8 or 9 now. They have two free books every month they give you. The neat thing about logos is you can use a website to browse your library. So you can check when you are away from home on a trip, I think maybe even on your phone. I mainly use it for it's prayer list feature. I don't debate much theology anymore, as I have said in the past most people go into a debate with a preconceived standpoint, and keep that standpoint throughout the debate. We have an inflated view of self, most of us do, and we assume we are correct in most things, that is why we pride ourselves in telling everyone else online what those views are.

anyway I will post some links for you:

here is the 972 books that I have collected (it's about 3G, and books are in random order, when you install them, they will be organized in collections)
Books – Google Drive
in order to download the whole file, you need to select "books" from the top bar, and select "download file" otherwise you may have to individually download 972 books which would take awhile, plus if you download the whole file I think they zip it and compress it.

here is the free software to use with the free books, it's an e reader, as well as some other tools, like a search function.
Bible Software theWord!

and here is training modules for it, to learn more about the free software and how to utilize most of it's capabilities.
The Word Bible Software Training Modules - YouTube
 
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createdtoworship

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I forgot if I posted this gospel message lately, but it's not about a gospel BY works, but a gospel THAT works. If you have true faith it will work!

There is two different types of gospel messages christians give on social media. The most common one is the "lovey dovey" type of gospel. God will love you the way you are, and will accept you with all your flaws, after all we are all human anyway. It's close to the real deal, but slightly off. Then you have a fiery type of gospel preached. "God hates homosexuals." Turn or burn, etc. What I don't see on social media is the accurate gospel message. Both types above have parts of them that are true and parts that are not true. God loves us as we are, just as we are. Imperfections and all. But He does not want to keep us that way. What good is a gospel message if the only thing you get is to sit on a cloud forever playing a harp? That is not a joy filled eternity. Salvation, should you choose to accept it will not only give you eternal life in heaven with God, but will change your life forever (for the positive), here and now. It will revolutionize your family, one person at a time, it will change your job, it will change how you see life and how you deal with hardships. We often forget that when we are saved, we are saved from something to something else. It's our sin that we are saved from. Sin creates death. Too often I don't see that attitude of "lets do what pleases God." the attitude I see is "what can I do and still be saved. or, how far in this sin can I go before I am in trouble." That is not really salvation. Yes, it can start that way. When you just get saved and you don't really know much about God or salvation. But salvation is to give you abundant life right now. Yes we have addictions, lusts, desires and frailties. But God wants to work on each of those one thing at a time. Sometimes several at once. IF Christianity has not changed you, perhaps maybe you forgot one simple theological concept. I know that we are saved by faith and it's by grace not of works. But maybe you forgot to turn from your sins to God? I have heard dozens of atheists say something like this...."I tried christianity and it didn't work. I have all these doubts about the Bible, or God now." I say this to them...."we all have doubts, I don't think that is the problem....I say..."I know you believed in Jesus, but did you ever repent of your sins?" I have never had one of them say yes. out of the dozens of atheists I have debated none of them have ever said, "I accepted the gospel, repented of my sins, but it did not work." See even if you repent a tiny little bit, you are better for it. God never asks us to turn from things that are actually good for us. Sin is not bad because it's forbidden, it's forbidden because it's bad. God asks for us to repent when we become christians, because that will be a mechanism a tool that we will use throughout our christian life. I repent every day in various ways. I was studying programming at work and there is something called a PID loop. And one of the variables is an error feedback. So basically you have a set point, and when you don't meet the set point, you have an error, and the error has degrees on which it is wrong. So basically a PID loop is always correcting itself, I am not sure but I think that cruise control on your car is a PID setup, you hit a hill and you slow down, and the computer sees an error, and speeds you up. We are the same way, we have errors in our day. We wake up and don't get our coffee because we are behind schedule, and have a horrible morning. Error. Someone dies in our family, error. Our dog gets sick, error. Christianity is about giving us strength to deal with those errors in our life. And that is what repentance does it says "there is an error, I need to correct." you may make the same exact error dozens of times, but each time you learn something new. Conviction versus condemnation. Satan will tell you if you mess up with the same stuff all the time that you are unworthy, that christianity is fake and it's not working. That is condemnation. God doesn't do that, instead of condemnation, God gives us conviction. Conviction is the feeling inside that I messed up, but God forgave me on the Cross and I will try to do better next time. When we get in trouble is when we stop trying. See defeat is not when you mess up, it's when you stop trying. These last few sentences are the most important. After Jesus died for our sins we are no longer guilty for the things we have done. His forgiveness gives us a new slate to launch our new life in Him. We have the power to get past alcoholism, or prostitution, or opiod abuse. With Jesus that power can be tapped into daily. The Bible says "if a man asks for bread, will I give him a stone?" The answer is no. If we ask for a baptism of His holy spirit every day, He will give us power every day. When someone asked Jesus "How are we supposed to pray." one of the things He said "lead me not into temptation, but deliver us from evil." See Jesus knew we were only flesh and bone and we had evil desires that combated us from every direction. But He also knew that the power is there for anyone simply to ask and pray for power to overcome it.

Now lets talk about the Hell fire gospel message for a second. I was in san franscisco and I seen a bunch of christian evangelists on the street corner with a sign that said "God hates [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]." For one that is a derogatory label. It's not polite to use those labels as humans so I find it very offensive that a sign says God uses that derogatory name. But that is another story. Secondly I did a Bible study on God's anger in the new testament. I was curious about it. Because I seen the opposing viewpoint as well. Someone said "God is not angry at you, He loves you." So I was curious. Is God angry at us, after Christ came? There are lots of verses in the old testament about God's anger regarding mankind and their evil ways. But not so much in the new testament. There are two reasons I believe for why there are only a few instances of God being angry in the new testament. The primary reason: God's anger was displayed on His son, for our sins. Secondly, God's anger is storing up. I believe there will be a day of wrath. But it is not yet. Yes it may be technically true that Jesus was not angry at any sinner and that His anger was directly mainly at the religious elite who were hypocrites in the day. God is technically not angry right now, at least until the day of wrath occurs. I am not the greatest at end times, but if you wish to learn more, look up clarence larkins charts on the internet, they have all sorts of pictures. There will be a rapture of the church. And I believe all Christians will be taken up, and I believe that any non christian will be left behind. Those days will not be pretty. I remember reading one verse that had an angel standing one foot in the sea and another foot on dry land. Now that is a big angel. Another verse I remember reading had angels flying around with the face of a lion and they had wings and sharp teeth and they ate humans that were left on the earth. I am not kidding about this, read the revelation (the last book of the Bible). On another occasion I remember reading that there were so many people killed, that there were rivers of blood up to the depth of a horses bridle. Now that's a lot of blood shed. So yes God loves you right now and has a wonderful plan for your life, but don't think God is this passive personality that won't judge your sin. Oh He will. Now is it right to say that God hates homo's? No it's not. God does not hate sinners, He hates sin. It may be true in the old testament that God was angry with the sinful but no so anymore, after Christ. although there will be a day of wrath. But I am not sure if it God is actually angry during that process. It would be a good study for me to do more of. It could be that God issitting on the couch watching the news, and He just waves His hand and all the destroyer angels go to war against the human race. That is possible, it could be that He had no emotion at all. I don't know. But when I read the Bible I know that sin makes Him angry and sin actually hurts His heart. The reason is this....sin creates death where ever it is leading up to the death of His beloved son. Now, lets talk about Hell for a little bit. I believe in einsteins theory of relativity. That means that if you have mass, you have gravity, you have time and you have a host of other affects, on that mass. But if you don't have mass, then you don't have time. Angels are without mass, and God is without mass, and our souls are without mass. That means that all those things are not affected by the fourth dimension of time. In laymans terms those things are all eternal. If our soul is eternal, then the hell that we are condemned to, must also be eternal, which means it would also be massless and spiritual in nature. Now we only have our laws of physics to go off of, this is all just theory. You have meta physics as well, which I don't understand enough about to theorize. But this viewpoint answer some apologetics questions. Why would God send us to eternal hell for a temporal sin? I hear that one alot. Well the answer would be that we go to eternal hell, because the soul is eternal. And sin itself is eternal because it is spiritual, and sins of the mind, are done in an eternal state of mind. I know this is getting deep. But this means that all of our thoughts are eternal. They are mass less and are stamped into eternity. Time only affects mass, if you don't have mass, you can't be sped up or slowed down my time, because time has nothing to speed up. So all of our thoughts are eternal, which means bad thoughts or sins, are eternal. Now I used to think that it was only a sin when it manifested itself in a physical action. But I no longer believe that. I think sin is deep in the heart, deep in the spirit of man (the soul), permanently tied not only to our flesh, by being in the flesh but tied to our mind. How we think, can be sinful. We can hate someone, and not kill them. We can look at someone in lust, and not lay with them. Sin is in the mind. That is why Jesus said "He that looks with lust, has committed adultery, and he that hates someone, has murdered them." (my wording). So we all have plenty to work on, as far as our own imperfections. But God is gracious and loving and will not give up on you until you are perfect in all ways, both mental and physical. Not just in heaven, but now. And this perfection in your life, will create many blessings for you, not just in eternal rewards, but will transfer to wealth and health in this world, if you give it time. That does not mean that God will give you everything you desire. Because our mind is sinful, we desire sinful things, and those things, God necessarily won't give us. But if we conform our mind to His, and our desires truly become one with His desires, then He starts to grant us our hearts desire, one by one. You start to see every prayer answered in succession. It's amazing. Just about that time, you start to get pride and think you must be pretty spiritual, and then you heap up judgement on yourself for that sin. So then God gives you a thorn in the flesh, to keep you humble. A weakness or a testimony of a weakness, and it's one that you just can't overcome, because this is God's given thorn to keep you broken. He would not have to do that to you if you were able to not lift yourself up in pride. But ultimately Gods will is done on earth, as it is in heaven. This is what true Christianity is. To say that God is never angry, or that God loves everyone and will forgive anyone even if they love and have pride in their sin, is wrong. For example the pedophile who is a christian, He must repent of that sin accept Christ as His savior. Same with the homosexual, the adulterer. And anyone living in Sin. It does not mean that one is perfect, it means that we realize, "Hey I am broken, I need help here Lord, Help me overcome this weakness." The wrong attitude is being a christian and going to homosexual pride events, and saying that God loves homosexuality. No, He doesn't. Homosexuality destroys lives not the opposite. Many people would call me homophobic for saying that. But it's not my words, they are from the Bible. Anyway I ran across a lovely testimony of a lesbian who converted to christianity today, I wanted to share it. I think it explains the power of the gospel in ways that theological words fail to do.

one gospel I see.png
 
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A_Thinker

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The experience of the OP is akin to Samson's experience in the Old Testament.

God's gracious offering of Himself to us in fellowship ... and our acceptance of that offer ... does not shield us from failure during our walk with Him, particularly if we fail to shun our sin and consistently turn, in repentance, to Christ.
 
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createdtoworship

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The experience of the OP is akin to Samson's experience in the Old Testament.

God's gracious offering of Himself to us in fellowship ... and our acceptance of that offer ... does not shield us from failure during our walk with Him, particularly if we fail to shun our sin and consistently turn, in repentance, to Christ.
Godbless you brother, thank you for the encouraging words. Repentance is required at salvation because it is a tool we will use the rest of our lives, literally. It does not save us, Christ saves us. But we constantly turn our mind toward him, our hearts easily wander to error, and sin.

anyway I posted some free Bible study software above to the other guy, here is the link, feel free to take advantage of the software and utilize it:

Is salvation by grace alone? Or faith alone? Or grace through faith? or by faith plus repentance?
 
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