Sola scriptura or ECF-like traditions of man? Christ in Mark 7

chevyontheriver

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Sep 29, 2015
19,168
16,008
Flyoverland
✟1,224,025.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
Only? How do you know he did not also have the Hebrew Scriptures or the Aramaic Targums?
Possibly. He didn't have a New Testament. Maybe he had a letter or three from Paul. Maybe he had one of the Gospels. Point is that saying Scripture alone with regards to Timothy means basically the OT only. Which is a backwards sort of claim to make to establish some 66 book Bible as the only authority. They really only establish the OT as the only authority in using that text that way.
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,118
10,509
Georgia
✟900,262.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
I don't use a Catholic Bible but when I quote from the Deuterocanonicals people say "It is not Scripture :mad:"

I assume you are talking about Jerome now.

Turns out - the Catholic church did not write them either.
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,118
10,509
Georgia
✟900,262.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
I originally questioned the OP as a false dichotomy. I was mistaken, it's a straw-man argument from the outset.

Apparently it can be difficult to decide between two false accusations. I guess that is understandable.

No Church teaches, turning from scripture and insisting that traditions of man are all that matters.

Checkout the OP - it does not say "church teaches" it says we have some threads started here recently making that claim. Pretty hard to find people who do accept ECF tradition going over there to try and get a more balanced POV promoted.

Tradition being passed on is how we have the New Testament.
If we take a strict view of Mark 7, we throw out large portions of the New Testament, if not all of it.

How so?? Was Christ careless in Mark 7??
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Barney2.0

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Dec 1, 2017
6,003
2,336
Los Angeles
✟451,221.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Notice how many times in scripture Mary is addressed as "Mother of God"??

That term smacks of procreation ... not incarnation. Maybe that is why you find it not being used.



"actually" or "indirect inference by the reader -- only"?

hmm so -- "My lord the King" -- means " king Saul was God"? 1 Samuel 24:8

Or would that be a case of bad inference by the reader?



Or it means you agree with Hebrew 7 that God has no mother or father... and that the issue in the case of Mary is "incarnation" and not "procreation".

There is as it turns out - a big difference.

Which is probably why we don't see that term used in the Bible.
The term doesn’t indicate any type of procreation unless you define Mary as a co-member of the trinity or as co-creator, if you deny the term you deny the incarnation very simple. The context of how lord is applied is key, the term as applied in Luke 1:43 obviously refers to God and divinity as Elizabeth says my Lord indicating Elizabeth’s personal Lord and we know Israel only had one Lord and God and Savior. By the way this is the verse of Hebrews 7:3:

Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

It says God has no mother of father in sense of being an offspring of sexual Union or having any sort of beginning which he obviously doesn’t. Mary was however the mother of God as Jesus as the second person of the trinity the Son and Word of God the Father begotten of the Father’s divinity incarnated as a man and was born of a virgin called Mary, the humanity forever uniting with the divinity of the Word after the incarnation without any sort of mixing or separation, thus Mary was the mother of God as well as as Christ’s humanity. Also if you reject the decisions of the Council of Ephesus your technically in heresy, with it being a ecumenical Council binding on all Christians who claim Orthodoxy.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Crosstian

Baring The Cross
Oct 5, 2019
131
16
Country
✟1,099.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
... 66 book Bible as the only authority. ...
As for the amount of 'books' in the whole of scripture as we now have them in the KJB, we can know that there are 66 books:

There are two stacks of 6 loaves on the table of shewbread, which represents God's word, taken together. 6-6.

Across from the table of shew bread is the candlestick when all the flowers, knops etc added up. 66.

The book of Isaiah, being the mini bible, from creation to redemption and new heavens and earth, are chapters. 66

The number of man is 6. Jesus took upon himself the form of a servant, and became 'man', 6. There God who took upon himself humanity (Jesus) and man. 6 - 6.

The OT itself, the standard of judgment is the limit of the law, meaning, 40 stripes save 1. 39.

The NT is a little more interesting, in that there are 4 gospels, corresponding to the 4 living creatures of Revelation, 7 letters to 7 churches by Paul as like in Revelation, etc and it also ties into the Sanctuary. The 4 gospels in the altar of Sacrifice, the book of Acts the Laver of Baptism, the letters to the churches and epistles the life in the Holy Place (bread (word), incense (prayer), light (share)), and Revelation ending in the Most Holy Place. It also is 3 to the 3rd power (3x3x3). 27.

They’re absolutely true. Consider the 7 Branch Candlestick and 66 number in totaling all the knops, etc.

Psa_119:105 NUN. Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

Exo 25:31 And thou shalt make a candlestick of pure gold: of beaten work shall the candlestick be made: his shaft, and his branches, his bowls, his knops, and his flowers, shall be of the same.

Exo 25:32 And six branches shall come out of the sides of it; three branches of the candlestick out of the one side, and three branches of the candlestick out of the other side:

Exo 25:33 Three bowls made like unto almonds, with a knop and a flower in one branch; and three bowls made like almonds in the other branch, with a knop and a flower: so in the six branches that come out of the candlestick.

Exo 25:34 And in the candlestick shall be four bowls made like unto almonds, with their knops and their flowers.

Exo 25:35 And there shall be a knop under two branches of the same, and a knop under two branches of the same, and a knop under two branches of the same, according to the six branches that proceed out of the candlestick.

Exo 25:36 Their knops and their branches shall be of the same: all it shall be one beaten work of pure gold.

Exo 25:37 And thou shalt make the seven lamps thereof: and they shall light the lamps thereof, that they may give light over against it.

Exo_37:17 And he made the candlestick of pure gold: of beaten work made he the candlestick; his shaft, and his branch, his bowls, his knops, and his flowers, were of the same:

Exo_37:20 And in the candlestick were four bowls made like almonds, his knops, and his flowers:

Exo_37:22 Their knops and their branches were of the same: all of it was one beaten work of pure gold.

[1] Knops per side (6) branch x 3 = 18
[2] Flowers per side (6) branch x 3 = 18
[3] Bowls per (6) branch x 3 = 18
[4] 6 side branches (3 of each knop, flower and bowl per (thus 9)) = 54
[5] 1 central (branch) stock (4 knops, 4 flowers, 4 bowls) = 12
[6] Total = 18 + 18 + 18 + 12 = 66
 
  • Haha
Reactions: FenderTL5
Upvote 0

Crosstian

Baring The Cross
Oct 5, 2019
131
16
Country
✟1,099.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
...Checkout the OP - it does not say "church teaches" it says we have some threads started here recently making that claim. Pretty hard to find people who do accept ECF tradition going over there to try and get a more balanced POV promoted. ...
Yea, for the ECF Lactantius believed in flat-earth, but do you hear the threads on "ECF" claim that as their "tradition"? Just one of the endless blunders of the Easily Confused Fellows.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Crosstian

Baring The Cross
Oct 5, 2019
131
16
Country
✟1,099.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
She is actually indirectly called the mother of God in scripture:

And why has this happened to me, that the mother of my Lord comes to me?

Luke 1:43

If you reject that Mary is the mother of God it means you reject the divinity of Christ or separate his two natures.
Nonsense again.

Elizabeth doesn't once say "mother of God", directly or "indirectly" (code word for 'I made it up and want to add it to Gods word somehow'). It is pure imagination and fiction of the devil. It is blasphemy. It is a direct assault upon God.

"mother of my Lord", as spoken by Elizabeth refers to the throne of David in the very context.

God (even the Son of the Father) exists before, from eternity, before 'mothers' (for only humanity has such) ever created. Mothers, in verity, deal with the flesh.

Joh_3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Using the backward logic some use, would mean that David is the Father of God, Solomon is the Father of God, etc, and Bathsheba is the Mother of God, and Sarai/h is the Mother of God, and Eve is the Mother of God and so on.

Mat_12:48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
Mar_3:33 And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren?

Mat 12:49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
Mat 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Mar 3:34 And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
Mar 3:35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

All Christians have Christ Jesus born within.

Try dealing with facts - Theotokos or theoNOTokos
 
Upvote 0

FenderTL5

Κύριε, ἐλέησον.
Supporter
Jun 13, 2016
5,074
5,940
Nashville TN
✟631,933.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
Checkout the OP - it does not say "church teaches" it says we have some threads started here recently making that claim..
I haven't seen this. Granted, there's a lot of threads I don't even bother to open. My not seeing them is not argument that they don't exist.
As the thread has progressed, it would seem to me that the argument has shifted to anything less than agreement in Sola-Scriptura is a defense of the premise in the OP.
I would disagree with both positions.

How so?? Was Christ careless in Mark 7??
As I see it, in a strict rendering as presented, using Christ quoting OT as example; we either accept sola-Old Testament OR we'd need to find example(s) of Christ quoting New Testament writer(s) (not the other way around).

The quotations of Christ in the NT are considered scripture now, of course. However, they were assembled from oral tradition as exemplified in the early part of Luke's Gospel.
Paul's letters were circulated throughout the churches and maintained as tradition until being canonized.

The whole premise is a cart before the horse scenario. Paul's letters were to Churches, who were already preaching, teaching, keeping the prayers, baptizing etc, all prior to there being an assembled NT.
Even the Bereans are an example of Apostolic Tradition (Paul's preaching) being used and confirmed along side (not in contrast to) the OT.
 
Upvote 0

chevyontheriver

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Sep 29, 2015
19,168
16,008
Flyoverland
✟1,224,025.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
As for the amount of 'books' in the whole of scripture as we now have them in the KJB, we can know that there are 66 books:

There are two stacks of 6 loaves on the table of shewbread, which represents God's word, taken together. 6-6.

Across from the table of shew bread is the candlestick when all the flowers, knops etc added up. 66.

The book of Isaiah, being the mini bible, from creation to redemption and new heavens and earth, are chapters. 66

The number of man is 6. Jesus took upon himself the form of a servant, and became 'man', 6. There God who took upon himself humanity (Jesus) and man. 6 - 6.

The OT itself, the standard of judgment is the limit of the law, meaning, 40 stripes save 1. 39.

The NT is a little more interesting, in that there are 4 gospels, corresponding to the 4 living creatures of Revelation, 7 letters to 7 churches by Paul as like in Revelation, etc and it also ties into the Sanctuary. The 4 gospels in the altar of Sacrifice, the book of Acts the Laver of Baptism, the letters to the churches and epistles the life in the Holy Place (bread (word), incense (prayer), light (share)), and Revelation ending in the Most Holy Place. It also is 3 to the 3rd power (3x3x3). 27.

They’re absolutely true. Consider the 7 Branch Candlestick and 66 number in totaling all the knops, etc.

Psa_119:105 NUN. Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

Exo 25:31 And thou shalt make a candlestick of pure gold: of beaten work shall the candlestick be made: his shaft, and his branches, his bowls, his knops, and his flowers, shall be of the same.

Exo 25:32 And six branches shall come out of the sides of it; three branches of the candlestick out of the one side, and three branches of the candlestick out of the other side:

Exo 25:33 Three bowls made like unto almonds, with a knop and a flower in one branch; and three bowls made like almonds in the other branch, with a knop and a flower: so in the six branches that come out of the candlestick.

Exo 25:34 And in the candlestick shall be four bowls made like unto almonds, with their knops and their flowers.

Exo 25:35 And there shall be a knop under two branches of the same, and a knop under two branches of the same, and a knop under two branches of the same, according to the six branches that proceed out of the candlestick.

Exo 25:36 Their knops and their branches shall be of the same: all it shall be one beaten work of pure gold.

Exo 25:37 And thou shalt make the seven lamps thereof: and they shall light the lamps thereof, that they may give light over against it.

Exo_37:17 And he made the candlestick of pure gold: of beaten work made he the candlestick; his shaft, and his branch, his bowls, his knops, and his flowers, were of the same:

Exo_37:20 And in the candlestick were four bowls made like almonds, his knops, and his flowers:

Exo_37:22 Their knops and their branches were of the same: all of it was one beaten work of pure gold.

[1] Knops per side (6) branch x 3 = 18
[2] Flowers per side (6) branch x 3 = 18
[3] Bowls per (6) branch x 3 = 18
[4] 6 side branches (3 of each knop, flower and bowl per (thus 9)) = 54
[5] 1 central (branch) stock (4 knops, 4 flowers, 4 bowls) = 12
[6] Total = 18 + 18 + 18 + 12 = 66
WOW! With eisegesis like that I struggle to imagine how to even challenge you on it.
 
Upvote 0

Crosstian

Baring The Cross
Oct 5, 2019
131
16
Country
✟1,099.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
WOW! With eisegesis like that I struggle to imagine how to even challenge you on it.
I know you think so. It is why you won't even try and have no other response but apoplexy, as it is too straight forward especially with the Candlestick texts. Thy word is a lamp ...
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Woke

Active Member
Supporter
Oct 8, 2019
239
82
71
California
✟38,620.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
So many new threads recently turning from scripture and insisting that traditions of man are all that matters...

What did Christ say?

Mark 7
6 And He said to them, “Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far away from Me.
7 ‘But in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’
8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother, is to be put to death’; 11 but you say, ‘If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),’ 12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”

Not saying that all ECF statements are errors of man - only that scripture is the "Gold standard" and not the other way around

Paul himself "tested" sola scriptura
Acts 17:11 "they studied the scriptures daily to SEE IF those things spoken to them by the Apostle Paul - were SO"

Gal 1:6-9
"6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; 7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we (Apostles), or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! 9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!"

Acts 20
28 Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. 29 I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; 30 and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them. 31 Therefore be on the alert,

======================================

Notice - I believe in sola scriptura -- which means I predict that scripture alone will debunk any sort of error raised against it.

No wonder then that the scripture that does it - would be the focus and solution for complaints against the very practice we see in scripture.

It is like saying "here is the medicine that will cure that sickness" and then each time the sickness shows up -- "that same medicine" appears as the solution. Not all that surprising.

There are individuals in many different Christian denominations that claim they only teach what the Bible actually says. And yet they have different beliefs about major Bible subjects. It is impossible for you to prove to these believers their views are wrong and yours are correct, by claiming you use only the Bible. They also claim they only use the Bible. So even if one of your beliefs is correct, which is not necessarily so just because your belief is shaped by scripture, something more is needed. God sees to it that Christ's church members receive the information they need to remain members in that church. And while God may use you to help in that process, only God can do that.

God condemned people for establishing traditions when those tradition led them away from following him. And like you claim, some beliefs about scripture do that today, but other Bible beliefs that are not scripturally correct don't. God knew all this would happen. There is nothing that should be troubling about it. God sees to it that those who want to follow him do. He always has and always will.

From Romans chapter 14:
1Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions. 2One person has faith that he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats vegetables only. 3The one who eats is not to regard with contempt the one who does not eat, and the one who does not eat is not to judge the one who eats, for God has accepted him. 4Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

5One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God. 7For not one of us lives for himself, and not one dies for himself; 8for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s. 9For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.

10But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0