The Struggles of a Christian Significant Other and a Desire to Learn

Will_C · Oct 1, 2019

Hello.

I'm looking for answers from Christians in particular, although I won't turn anyone away if they have advise or understanding to give.

I come from a particularly Atheist background in my upbringing. My parents both strongly disbelieving. My school touching on, but not truly delving into the finer details of the Christian Faith (I do not have an issue with this. I think it was good to get a broader view of the many religions). My friendship group all dismissing religion as a whole, let along Christianity.
I myself am Agnostic. While I do not believe there is a powerful creator that designed the world and all the people within it in its image, I do not doubt that there are things we do not currently know and it is possible that this could be due to some otherworldly being -whether that be Buddha, God, Allah, Brahma or one of the many others.

In the last 1.5 years, I have entered a relationship with a Christian. Amongst a litany of different issues that a long distance relationship brings, our differences in faith have been a challenge.
I am open to discussion and understanding and the two of us have begun working through a series of books to help explain a more scientific understanding of Christianity to me and we plan to read through the Bible together in the future. This is all grounding to explain that I am receptive to understanding the broader brush strokes of her, and your, faith.

My difficulty comes in the form that there are many underlying issues I see within Christianity. I want to be gentle with how I approach this topic with her as I understand how important her faith is to her. I've aimed to speak to her pastor, though did not have the time during my last journey to Canada.
As such I've come here. I'd appreciate any insight anyone in a similar situation might have. In particular I'm looking for answers to the questions she's been unable to help me with (Or that have been too sensitive for me to raise with her). I'm not aiming to discuss whether this God exists or dosen't, but instead to understand why if this God does exist, I should want to worship them.

I have a moral quandary with Christianity. Several in fact. I struggle to understanding why a person would want to worship your God. A being that, by description, cares not for the actions and activity of a person in life.
A person could be all but the definition of a Saint, performing deeds that improve the world and other's lives greatly. Yet unless they do so in the name of your God, they are condemned to eternal torment, whether this be through the concept of Hell (We have discussed the differences between this and Gehenna) or the eventual torment that comes with Armageddon.
To me, this is an innately unloving action which contradicts the concept of a loving God. To condemn a person for all eternity based on whether they praise you enough I do find the ultimate form of vanity. I would appreciate insight into this.
Fate, omniscience, God and the idea of the "Original Sin" are another issue I see with Christianity. An omniscient God created the world and everything in it (If we are to go by the young earth direct interpretation as given by the Bible. She is unsure whether she believes in this, but does not disagree with the potential so I will be using this as an example).
If this being is omniscient, then their future knowledge would leave them to have the ultimate power during their acts of creation. They created the world, the animals, the water and the first humans within it. In doing this, they created, sculpted and placed each original creature/tree/mountain/human in a specific spot and designed in a specific manner (Mental state, understanding, desire and current thought pattern).
Even before Humans would have been placed like this, God would already have known that they were being designed in such a way that they would eat of the forbidden fruit.
The choice to eat was never there. As such, Humans in Christianity were punished for thousands of years for a sin that God chose for them to make, until at last his child was sent to die for God's chosen sin and to free them from those shackles that he put upon Humanity.
Again, I struggle to see a kind and loving God here. I struggle to see a reason why I should want to worship this being, even before considering whether it is real.
The Old Testament and how worship has changed since. I have researched into the Old Testament and its contrast to the new and there are particularly distinct differences between the two. In the Old Testament there is a greater focus on punishment and the process to shed your sin through sacrifice or ritual, while the New Testament focuses more on love and connections between people.
Is there any point during this transition that the Old Testament becomes no longer a subject of practice for Christians? I've been informed that the sacrifices to cleanse oneself from sin became invalid in the coming of Jesus Christ, however I ask about the punishments then.
Leviticus 20 is renowned as an issue in this regard. Here are a few particularly unacceptable punishments I see.
20:9 - Any person that swears at either of their parents should be put to death.
20:13 - Two men in a gay relationship should be put to death if they act upon it sexually.
20:18 - A couple having sexual relations during her period should result in both individuals being exiled.
If the Old Testament are still valid, then these actions are condoned as the correct action to make. I would like to understand why a person would want to worship a God that demands such things for these actions.

I have many further issues, but I don't want to dilute the focus of this thread by creating too many points to discuss. For the time being, these three issues are where I would appreciate the focus falling.

I apologise if this is not where this post should lie. I had wanted to place it within "Christian Apologetics" but was disallowed to receive help with my dilemma unless I had already posted 100 times and received at least 5 likes.
As a new member, asking this before allowing me to speak is the equivalent of turning a blind issue to my request for help.

Thank you for your time.

Sanoy · Oct 1, 2019

Will_C said:
Hello.

I'm looking for answers from Christians in particular, although I won't turn anyone away if they have advise or understanding to give.

I come from a particularly Atheist background in my upbringing. My parents both strongly disbelieving. My school touching on, but not truly delving into the finer details of the Christian Faith (I do not have an issue with this. I think it was good to get a broader view of the many religions). My friendship group all dismissing religion as a whole, let along Christianity.
I myself am Agnostic. While I do not believe there is a powerful creator that designed the world and all the people within it in its image, I do not doubt that there are things we do not currently know and it is possible that this could be due to some otherworldly being -whether that be Buddha, God, Allah, Brahma or one of the many others.

In the last 1.5 years, I have entered a relationship with a Christian. Amongst a litany of different issues that a long distance relationship brings, our differences in faith have been a challenge.
I am open to discussion and understanding and the two of us have begun working through a series of books to help explain a more scientific understanding of Christianity to me and we plan to read through the Bible together in the future. This is all grounding to explain that I am receptive to understanding the broader brush strokes of her, and your, faith.

My difficulty comes in the form that there are many underlying issues I see within Christianity. I want to be gentle with how I approach this topic with her as I understand how important her faith is to her. I've aimed to speak to her pastor, though did not have the time during my last journey to Canada.
As such I've come here. I'd appreciate any insight anyone in a similar situation might have. In particular I'm looking for answers to the questions she's been unable to help me with (Or that have been too sensitive for me to raise with her). I'm not aiming to discuss whether this God exists or dosen't, but instead to understand why if this God does exist, I should want to worship them.

I have a moral quandary with Christianity. Several in fact. I struggle to understanding why a person would want to worship your God. A being that, by description, cares not for the actions and activity of a person in life.
A person could be all but the definition of a Saint, performing deeds that improve the world and other's lives greatly. Yet unless they do so in the name of your God, they are condemned to eternal torment, whether this be through the concept of Hell (We have discussed the differences between this and Gehenna) or the eventual torment that comes with Armageddon.
To me, this is an innately unloving action which contradicts the concept of a loving God. To condemn a person for all eternity based on whether they praise you enough I do find the ultimate form of vanity. I would appreciate insight into this.

Fate, omniscience, God and the idea of the "Original Sin" are another issue I see with Christianity. An omniscient God created the world and everything in it (If we are to go by the young earth direct interpretation as given by the Bible. She is unsure whether she believes in this, but does not disagree with the potential so I will be using this as an example).
If this being is omniscient, then their future knowledge would leave them to have the ultimate power during their acts of creation. They created the world, the animals, the water and the first humans within it. In doing this, they created, sculpted and placed each original creature/tree/mountain/human in a specific spot and designed in a specific manner (Mental state, understanding, desire and current thought pattern).
Even before Humans would have been placed like this, God would already have known that they were being designed in such a way that they would eat of the forbidden fruit.
The choice to eat was never there. As such, Humans in Christianity were punished for thousands of years for a sin that God chose for them to make, until at last his child was sent to die for God's chosen sin and to free them from those shackles that he put upon Humanity.
Again, I struggle to see a kind and loving God here. I struggle to see a reason why I should want to worship this being, even before considering whether it is real.

The Old Testament and how worship has changed since. I have researched into the Old Testament and its contrast to the new and there are particularly distinct differences between the two. In the Old Testament there is a greater focus on punishment and the process to shed your sin through sacrifice or ritual, while the New Testament focuses more on love and connections between people.
Is there any point during this transition that the Old Testament becomes no longer a subject of practice for Christians? I've been informed that the sacrifices to cleanse oneself from sin became invalid in the coming of Jesus Christ, however I ask about the punishments then.
Leviticus 20 is renowned as an issue in this regard. Here are a few particularly unacceptable punishments I see.
20:9 - Any person that swears at either of their parents should be put to death.
20:13 - Two men in a gay relationship should be put to death if they act upon it sexually.
20:18 - A couple having sexual relations during her period should result in both individuals being exiled.
If the Old Testament are still valid, then these actions are condoned as the correct action to make. I would like to understand why a person would want to worship a God that demands such things for these actions.

I have many further issues, but I don't want to dilute the focus of this thread by creating too many points to discuss. For the time being, these three issues are where I would appreciate the focus falling.

I apologise if this is not where this post should lie. I had wanted to place it within "Christian Apologetics" but was disallowed to receive help with my dilemma unless I had already posted 100 times and received at least 5 likes.
As a new member, asking this before allowing me to speak is the equivalent of turning a blind issue to my request for help.

Thank you for your time.

These are very good questions Will.

1. Fate of non believers.
I agree that it seems broken to establish a moral reward and punishment that hinges simply on belief of a proposition, but thankfully that is not what we find in the Bible. In Romans 2:12-16 Paul speaks of those who have not heard of Christ.

For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

Further, in Romans 4, Paul declares that Abraham was justified by faith, that is that he trusted in God's promise to make him a father of many nations. So Salvation is a heart response to the revelation that one receives. Some respond to the explicit revelation of Jesus Christ, and others to the implicit revelation of God's moral nature (doing good) which we all apprehend. Christ's sacrifice, the ransom He paid, was for all who respond to God's explicit, or implicit revelation. I want to be clear that this is not simply doing good, or doing good for a reward, but yielding ones heart toward God, or His Nature, that is His divine qualities like Love, Mercy, Forgiveness, that are apprehended by all.

2. Adam and the 'Apple'.
The way in which Adam was designed that allowed him to partake of the apple is free will. Free will logically entails such consequences, but one of those consequences is freely loving someone. Adam could have been created without free will, and so never fell, but how could he ever love God?

3. Mosaic Law.
The mosaic law was not a perfect law, Jesus tells us this in Matthew 5, nor is all that we have in Leviticus and Deuteronomy from Moses. There is evidence of an expansion of the law code which is placed into these books to root them with the surrounding authority. That was common back then while today we would have them be separate. There are also national laws in the OT that are no more binding to us than the laws of Canada. There is also ritual law which is built upon the culture of that day for retaining sacred space, like multifiber thread which was reserved for the priesthood because they were cultural markers of divinity. The law code here is also not all casuistic law either, much of it was a guiding paradigm to guide judicial decisions. While some of these laws may seem harsh today, they are incredibly benevolent compared to the surrounding ancient near east. While we may look poorly on the Israelite community today, back then it was the Camelot of the ancient near east. Back then it was a city on a hill, a beacon of guiding light for other nations to follow. If we were to wonder if God showed up to the Israelite's and guided them toward morality we need only look at the other historical laws like that of Hammurabi for comparison. In the eyes of history the morally progressed values of Israel is inexplicable apart from the divine influence they claim to have received in the desert.

Aussie Pete · Oct 1, 2019

Will_C said:
Hello.

I'm looking for answers from Christians in particular, although I won't turn anyone away if they have advise or understanding to give.

I come from a particularly Atheist background in my upbringing. My parents both strongly disbelieving. My school touching on, but not truly delving into the finer details of the Christian Faith (I do not have an issue with this. I think it was good to get a broader view of the many religions). My friendship group all dismissing religion as a whole, let along Christianity.
I myself am Agnostic. While I do not believe there is a powerful creator that designed the world and all the people within it in its image, I do not doubt that there are things we do not currently know and it is possible that this could be due to some otherworldly being -whether that be Buddha, God, Allah, Brahma or one of the many others.

In the last 1.5 years, I have entered a relationship with a Christian. Amongst a litany of different issues that a long distance relationship brings, our differences in faith have been a challenge.
I am open to discussion and understanding and the two of us have begun working through a series of books to help explain a more scientific understanding of Christianity to me and we plan to read through the Bible together in the future. This is all grounding to explain that I am receptive to understanding the broader brush strokes of her, and your, faith.

My difficulty comes in the form that there are many underlying issues I see within Christianity. I want to be gentle with how I approach this topic with her as I understand how important her faith is to her. I've aimed to speak to her pastor, though did not have the time during my last journey to Canada.
As such I've come here. I'd appreciate any insight anyone in a similar situation might have. In particular I'm looking for answers to the questions she's been unable to help me with (Or that have been too sensitive for me to raise with her). I'm not aiming to discuss whether this God exists or dosen't, but instead to understand why if this God does exist, I should want to worship them.

I have a moral quandary with Christianity. Several in fact. I struggle to understanding why a person would want to worship your God. A being that, by description, cares not for the actions and activity of a person in life.
A person could be all but the definition of a Saint, performing deeds that improve the world and other's lives greatly. Yet unless they do so in the name of your God, they are condemned to eternal torment, whether this be through the concept of Hell (We have discussed the differences between this and Gehenna) or the eventual torment that comes with Armageddon.
To me, this is an innately unloving action which contradicts the concept of a loving God. To condemn a person for all eternity based on whether they praise you enough I do find the ultimate form of vanity. I would appreciate insight into this.

Fate, omniscience, God and the idea of the "Original Sin" are another issue I see with Christianity. An omniscient God created the world and everything in it (If we are to go by the young earth direct interpretation as given by the Bible. She is unsure whether she believes in this, but does not disagree with the potential so I will be using this as an example).
If this being is omniscient, then their future knowledge would leave them to have the ultimate power during their acts of creation. They created the world, the animals, the water and the first humans within it. In doing this, they created, sculpted and placed each original creature/tree/mountain/human in a specific spot and designed in a specific manner (Mental state, understanding, desire and current thought pattern).
Even before Humans would have been placed like this, God would already have known that they were being designed in such a way that they would eat of the forbidden fruit.
The choice to eat was never there. As such, Humans in Christianity were punished for thousands of years for a sin that God chose for them to make, until at last his child was sent to die for God's chosen sin and to free them from those shackles that he put upon Humanity.
Again, I struggle to see a kind and loving God here. I struggle to see a reason why I should want to worship this being, even before considering whether it is real.

The Old Testament and how worship has changed since. I have researched into the Old Testament and its contrast to the new and there are particularly distinct differences between the two. In the Old Testament there is a greater focus on punishment and the process to shed your sin through sacrifice or ritual, while the New Testament focuses more on love and connections between people.
Is there any point during this transition that the Old Testament becomes no longer a subject of practice for Christians? I've been informed that the sacrifices to cleanse oneself from sin became invalid in the coming of Jesus Christ, however I ask about the punishments then.
Leviticus 20 is renowned as an issue in this regard. Here are a few particularly unacceptable punishments I see.
20:9 - Any person that swears at either of their parents should be put to death.
20:13 - Two men in a gay relationship should be put to death if they act upon it sexually.
20:18 - A couple having sexual relations during her period should result in both individuals being exiled.
If the Old Testament are still valid, then these actions are condoned as the correct action to make. I would like to understand why a person would want to worship a God that demands such things for these actions.

I have many further issues, but I don't want to dilute the focus of this thread by creating too many points to discuss. For the time being, these three issues are where I would appreciate the focus falling.

I apologise if this is not where this post should lie. I had wanted to place it within "Christian Apologetics" but was disallowed to receive help with my dilemma unless I had already posted 100 times and received at least 5 likes.
As a new member, asking this before allowing me to speak is the equivalent of turning a blind issue to my request for help.

Thank you for your time.

I was raised in family steeped in the occult on my mother's side with an atheist father. I believed that God was real but I wanted nothing to do with Him. 48 years ago, I had an encounter with the real God through Jesus Christ. That changed my life forever.

I appreciate your questions. They are valid and I've asked myself, and God, the same questions. Hopefully, I can shed a little light.

God is Love. That is a fundamental quality of God. So I hope that you'll be able to see that by the time I'm through.
1. The problem with mankind is not so much behaviour. I'll answer this more fully in the next question. All people, no matter how good or bad, are born spiritually dead. This is the cause of behaviours that are unacceptable to God. Even the most noble and upright person is still dead spiritually. God is Spirit and inhabits the Spiritual realm. I doubt that you'd want to invite dead people to your wedding or to come and live with you.

Praising God is not a demand, but a response to seeing His goodness and love. Jesus saved my life, literally. I was not quite 21, a binge drinker, desperately ill from alcohol abuse and suicidal. I cried out to the sky, "There must be more to life than this." God heard me and Jesus saved me. It's a long story. I can pm you if you wish.

2. Your premise that God forced Adam to make a bad choice is not a correct understanding. God knew what Adam would do, but God did not compel him. The opposite, God warned Adam of the consequences. Adam disobeyed and the rest is history. God is the ultimate Father. God wanted beings like Himself, who would freely choose to be His kids. In order to be fair, there had to be two choices, right or wrong. Adam was entirely neutral, neither inclined or disinclined towards God. You might think that Adam would have not dared to risk paradise. The account of his folly shows that his loyalty to Eve outweighed his loyalty to God.

When Adam disobeyed God, the consequences came about immediately. Adam did not die physically and he could still think, feel and choose. But he no longer was innocent. His choices invariably drifted towards the bad. Even at the very beginning, God showed His love by caring for Adam and Eve in their new, hostile environment. God has never stopped loving His creation.

3. One of the self-delusions that mankind suffers is that we are basically good people. I thought I was an okay person, in spite of my terrible personal problems. God chose to restore mankind to Himself. His first act was to find a man who would trust Him completely. Abraham was that man. He was in some ways flawed (aren't we all) but he believed God. The nation of Israel was formed but they ended up slaves in Egypt.

God delivered His people from Egypt. God's intent was that the nation of Israel should be an example to the rest of the world as to how to live. There was a major problem. The rescued Iraelites were ungrateful, resentful and unbelieving. So God made a deal with them, that they agreed to. Instead of a "father/son" kind of relationship, The Israelites entered a deal that would bring either blessing or cursing. Absolute obedience would bring blessing. Disobedience would bring a curse. It is much like the choice that faced Adam and Eve. Please note: Israel as a nation agreed to keep God's law.
The problem is not God's rules. It is that man has no capacity to follow God's laws. Eventually, Israel ceased to exist as a nation.

You've mentioned various prohibitions and rules that Israel was required to follow. Now while this is true, there was also provision made to forgive people who got it wrong. God was and is merciful. Many of the laws (just over 600) are sensible, practical and are designed to help people live a decent life. For example, the Law forbids eating certain foods. Shellfish are not permitted eating. Shellfish are potentially toxic as they take in heavy metals from the seawater. There are quarantine laws, health regulations and financial requirements. We may not understand them all, but they are by no means arbitrary.

The New Testament makes it clear that the problem is that man is born dead. Lord Jesus stated that He came that we might have Life. The New Testament is not an updated set of rules. It points us to what this new life means to the Christian.

Now in order for us to receive new life, something has to be done about the old life. You wonder about God's love? It is so great that He gave His own Son, Jesus Christ, to die in our place. God is not out to condemn. He wants to save you and everyone else. I have this new life because Lord Jesus rose from the dead and I rose with Him.

There is lot more that could said. If you've read this far, you've done really well. PM me if you have questions not answered elsewhere.

PloverWing · Oct 1, 2019

Welcome to CF! :wave:

I'm glad you're here, and I'm glad you're trying to understand your partner's faith. I'll give some brief responses here, and we can talk at greater length if you like.

1. The question of Hell, and who goes there, and whether one has to be explicitly Christian to be accepted by God, is one that many Christians also find troubling and that Christians disagree about. There's the view of Christian -> Heaven, non-Christian -> Hell, which you've described, and which is widely held. But alternatives include: a) The idea of "anonymous Christians" -- that if a person seeks to know the Divine and to do what is good as best as they can perceive it, God may accept that as assent sufficient for salvation, even if the person does not profess the Christian faith. b) The idea that the work of Christ was sufficiently powerful to save all of us, whether we believe in it or not. And there are other alternatives Christians discuss.

2. I read the earliest chapters of Genesis as mythological, not literal history, but it's a mythology that describes aspects of human existence that I see in my own life and in other people. Humans have potential for wonderful things: artistic creativity, moral reasoning and acts of great selflessness, rational reasoning and science, and so on. Genesis speaks of the "image of God". And humans do terrible things to each other and to the world around them. Sometimes we paradoxically do terrible things even when we don't want to. The Genesis image is of eating a fruit and being expelled from a perfect garden, but I see that as an image of all the times we've ruined a relationship by something we chose to do.

Why did God make us so that we were capable of great good and great evil? I don't know, though perhaps the capacity for evil is part of a long-term path towards an even greater capacity for good.

As for Jesus, I don't usually use the language of God sending a child to die, but, rather, that God entered into human existence and experienced a human life and death, and that this began a process of healing humankind from the evil that we're trapped in.

3. The Old Testament law is the covenant between God and the Jewish people. The early church debated the question of whether one had to convert to Judaism in order to become a Christian, and they decided that Gentiles do not have to become Jewish in order to be Christians. (The debate and the decision are recorded in the book of Acts.) That is why Christians do not generally follow the laws in Leviticus that you list. Your question is a good one to pose to observant Jews, and I believe that modern Jewish thought gives a variety of answers to how the ancient law applies in the modern world.

Thanks for your questions. I'd be happy to elaborate on anything I've said, though my post is pretty long already. I wish you and your partner all the best in your relationship. Long-distance romances and interfaith relationships aren't easy.

Aussie Pete · Oct 1, 2019

Aussie Pete said:
I was raised in family steeped in the occult on my mother's side with an atheist father. I believed that God was real but I wanted nothing to do with Him. 48 years ago, I had an encounter with the real God through Jesus Christ. That changed my life forever.

I appreciate your questions. They are valid and I've asked myself, and God, the same questions. Hopefully, I can shed a little light.

God is Love. That is a fundamental quality of God. So I hope that you'll be able to see that by the time I'm through.
1. The problem with mankind is not so much behaviour. I'll answer this more fully in the next question. All people, no matter how good or bad, are born spiritually dead. This is the cause of behaviours that are unacceptable to God. Even the most noble and upright person is still dead spiritually. God is Spirit and inhabits the Spiritual realm. I doubt that you'd want to invite dead people to your wedding or to come and live with you.

Praising God is not a demand, but a response to seeing His goodness and love. Jesus saved my life, literally. I was not quite 21, a binge drinker, desperately ill from alcohol abuse and suicidal. I cried out to the sky, "There must be more to life than this." God heard me and Jesus saved me. It's a long story. I can pm you if you wish.

2. Your premise that God forced Adam to make a bad choice is not a correct understanding. God knew what Adam would do, but God did not compel him. The opposite, God warned Adam of the consequences. Adam disobeyed and the rest is history. God is the ultimate Father. God wanted beings like Himself, who would freely choose to be His kids. In order to be fair, there had to be two choices, right or wrong. Adam was entirely neutral, neither inclined or disinclined towards God. You might think that Adam would have not dared to risk paradise. The account of his folly shows that his loyalty to Eve outweighed his loyalty to God.

When Adam disobeyed God, the consequences came about immediately. Adam did not die physically and he could still think, feel and choose. But he no longer was innocent. His choices invariably drifted towards the bad. Even at the very beginning, God showed His love by caring for Adam and Eve in their new, hostile environment. God has never stopped loving His creation.

3. One of the self-delusions that mankind suffers is that we are basically good people. I thought I was an okay person, in spite of my terrible personal problems. God chose to restore mankind to Himself. His first act was to find a man who would trust Him completely. Abraham was that man. He was in some ways flawed (aren't we all) but he believed God. The nation of Israel was formed but they ended up slaves in Egypt.

God delivered His people from Egypt. God's intent was that the nation of Israel should be an example to the rest of the world as to how to live. There was a major problem. The rescued Iraelites were ungrateful, resentful and unbelieving. So God made a deal with them, that they agreed to. Instead of a "father/son" kind of relationship, The Israelites entered a deal that would bring either blessing or cursing. Absolute obedience would bring blessing. Disobedience would bring a curse. It is much like the choice that faced Adam and Eve. Please note: Israel as a nation agreed to keep God's law.
The problem is not God's rules. It is that man has no capacity to follow God's laws. Eventually, Israel ceased to exist as a nation.

You've mentioned various prohibitions and rules that Israel was required to follow. Now while this is true, there was also provision made to forgive people who got it wrong. God was and is merciful. Many of the laws (just over 600) are sensible, practical and are designed to help people live a decent life. For example, the Law forbids eating certain foods. Shellfish are not permitted eating. Shellfish are potentially toxic as they take in heavy metals from the seawater. There are quarantine laws, health regulations and financial requirements. We may not understand them all, but they are by no means arbitrary.

The New Testament makes it clear that the problem is that man is born dead. Lord Jesus stated that He came that we might have Life. The New Testament is not an updated set of rules. It points us to what this new life means to the Christian.

Now in order for us to receive new life, something has to be done about the old life. You wonder about God's love? It is so great that He gave His own Son, Jesus Christ, to die in our place. God is not out to condemn. He wants to save you and everyone else. I have this new life because Lord Jesus rose from the dead and I rose with Him.

There is lot more that could be said. If you've read this far, you've done really well. PM me if you have questions not answered elsewhere.

2PhiloVoid · Oct 1, 2019

Will_C said:
The choice to eat was never there.

Sure it was there, just as surely as today, right now, a choice lies before you to either drink of the Living Water that is metaphorically speaking, Jesus Christ ... or to not drink. It's not a set-up; it's an opportunity by which you can decide to make a synergistic response to Christ via His Spirit and His Church (a member of whom appears to be your lady love.)

The thing is, as you've alluded to in your initial post, Only God knows what's really going on in your mind and heart right now.

TzephanYahu · Oct 7, 2019

Hi Will,

Some great questions here...

Will_C said:
A person could be all but the definition of a Saint, performing deeds that improve the world and other's lives greatly. Yet unless they do so in the name of your God, they are condemned to eternal torment, whether this be through the concept of Hell (We have discussed the differences between this and Gehenna) or the eventual torment that comes with Armageddon.

An understandable concern. Look at this way: When someone works hard to improve the world and other’s lives, they do a great thing. However, if we’re honest, it is often tarnished with their own definition of “help” and “goodness”, which can be highly subjective and have selfish goals. It can also be tarnished with that person’s name and reputation which can only serve to increase their pride and ego.

The difference being that a Christian are meant to work for these things but in secret, as it were. Not seeking praise, thanks or adoration for ourselves, but doing it in willing service to the Father so that the beneficiaries will praise God the Father, who orchestrates good things towards the good and evil alike.

But let’s say a non-believing man DOES help others selflessly for the good of mankind, what then? If such a man heard of the Gospel and the God of the Bible and denied them, this seemingly harmless choice reveals what is truly deep within his heart. For Yahweh, the God of the Bible, is truth and love and goodness by definition. So, when a seemingly altruistic and selflessly loving person cannot recognize this, there must be something deep in their heart that’s not right. The Bible says that some are either drawn to the light whilst others hide from it, for fear that their inner works may be reproved.

But let’s say that same man never heard Gospel – well, it seems from the Bible that he will be judged by his own standards and conscience. But who amongst us has had a clear conscience on what they have done throughout life?

Will_C said:
If this being is omniscient, then their future knowledge would leave them to have the ultimate power during their acts of creation. They created the world, the animals, the water and the first humans within it. In doing this, they created, sculpted and placed each original creature/tree/mountain/human in a specific spot and designed in a specific manner (Mental state, understanding, desire and current thought pattern).
Even before Humans would have been placed like this, God would already have known that they were being designed in such a way that they would eat of the forbidden fruit.
The choice to eat was never there. As such, Humans in Christianity were punished for thousands of years for a sin that God chose for them to make, until at last his child was sent to die for God's chosen sin and to free them from those shackles that he put upon Humanity.

I think you are pushing your understanding to extremes and getting caught up in the result. Imagine it like this. You create a computer generated world with avatars within it (like ‘The Sims’ if you’ve ever played it). You have programmed everything within and designed the avatars to run autonomously with AI (artificial intelligence) – capable of making their own decisions etc. As you are the programmer, you can predict forthcoming events and control events to happen. However, there is a degree of randomness from the avatars as to what they do.

Now, you are outside of the time domain that effects the avatars. You can fast-forward the program and see how things will turn out, if the avatars progress as they are today. Then, you can easily jump back to their present and interact with them to change that future. Yes, you are omnipotent and omniscient, yes you can predict what will happen to a flawless degree and yes the avatars have free will – all three are true and in harmony.

To continue this idea onwards - Whilst the program can be fast-forwarded at anytime, its “in game clock” never stops ticking and so nothing can be done about the avatars past. What’s happened has happened. And another idea with this analogy – the Messiah Jesus effectively became an avatar to come into this “game”. He returned out of the program back to the Creator and Father, as we will the chosen one day. The rest of the program gets deleted, as it were, due to the wicked place the avatars made it.

Will_C said:
The Old Testament and how worship has changed since. I have researched into the Old Testament and its contrast to the new and there are particularly distinct differences between the two. In the Old Testament there is a greater focus on punishment and the process to shed your sin through sacrifice or ritual, while the New Testament focuses more on love and connections between people.
Is there any point during this transition that the Old Testament becomes no longer a subject of practice for Christians? I've been informed that the sacrifices to cleanse oneself from sin became invalid in the coming of Jesus Christ, however I ask about the punishments then.
Leviticus 20 is renowned as an issue in this regard. Here are a few particularly unacceptable punishments I see.
20:9 - Any person that swears at either of their parents should be put to death.
20:13 - Two men in a gay relationship should be put to death if they act upon it sexually.
20:18 - A couple having sexual relations during her period should result in both individuals being exiled.
If the Old Testament are still valid, then these actions are condoned as the correct action to make. I would like to understand why a person would want to worship a God that demands such things for these actions.

Great question. I’ll answer as brief as I can as I have kept you long enough already.

The Torah is a set guidance and judgements. But the harsh judgements are seemingly meant to be for dissuasion rather than execution. They let us know what is absolutely unacceptable to Yahweh, and therefore in the new world to come. He is the Creator of all things, and what He says – goes. If we disobey on such a serious instructions (sin), He can put us on timeout (death) and pull us off the playing field (this world). Death sounds terminal to us humans, but really it’s just the end of step 1. Yes, the rulings may come across harsh but then again, what do you expect Him to say? “Don’t do this please or I will be cross”? Do you think people would obey Him then? Yahweh makes things very clear and doesn’t explain Himself no more than we explain our rulings to a toddler of 2 years old. We need to take His word for it that somethings are bad and have repercussions (physically or spiritually) even if we don’t understand.

There is plenty to discuss here and really meditation of Torah is a lifetime work, full of interesting discoveries of wisdom, hygiene, spiritual cleanliness, the Messiah, the future and more. But also remember that Israel (coming out of pagan Egypt after 400 years!) needed to be cleansed and established as a nation representing Yahweh on earth. Aligning pagan men of 1440 BC to the way of Yahweh required a lot of heavy shepherding. They failed, of course, as the Bible so painful details again and again!

But let’s suppose you did say “why worship a God who commands such things”. This statement has a few presuppositions.

I know what love is and THAT isn’t it
I would have made rules kinder than that
I think God’s ways aren’t as reasonable as my ways
I think there is a better way

All these presuppositions are implied with that statement. But, when you consider the presuppositions, they highlight how unreasonable the statement is. Let’s say you are 80 years old, have all your critical faculties, extremely well-schooled in multiple disciplines, well-traveled spending years across many cultures and nations…. Would you then be smart enough to dictate to a God what goodness and love is? Aren’t you just a man, living by His grace in the world He created? How could you ever advise Him on what is right and what is unfair?

I hope this gives you a different perspective on things. Sorry I rambled on. Great questions though.

Never stop asking or searching for answers. If you have concerns, continue to confront them boldly. I'm sure the Father sees your heart of honesty. For if I can sense a heart in your that longs for reason, fairness, goodness, and love - how much more the Father? Keep searching!

You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart. - Jeremiah 29:13

It is the glory of God to conceal a matter; to search out a matter is the glory of kings. - Proverbs 25:2

Emmylouwho · Oct 8, 2019

Will_C said:
Hello.

I'm looking for answers from Christians in particular, although I won't turn anyone away if they have advise or understanding to give.

I come from a particularly Atheist background in my upbringing. My parents both strongly disbelieving. My school touching on, but not truly delving into the finer details of the Christian Faith (I do not have an issue with this. I think it was good to get a broader view of the many religions). My friendship group all dismissing religion as a whole, let along Christianity.
I myself am Agnostic. While I do not believe there is a powerful creator that designed the world and all the people within it in its image, I do not doubt that there are things we do not currently know and it is possible that this could be due to some otherworldly being -whether that be Buddha, God, Allah, Brahma or one of the many others.

In the last 1.5 years, I have entered a relationship with a Christian. Amongst a litany of different issues that a long distance relationship brings, our differences in faith have been a challenge.
I am open to discussion and understanding and the two of us have begun working through a series of books to help explain a more scientific understanding of Christianity to me and we plan to read through the Bible together in the future. This is all grounding to explain that I am receptive to understanding the broader brush strokes of her, and your, faith.

My difficulty comes in the form that there are many underlying issues I see within Christianity. I want to be gentle with how I approach this topic with her as I understand how important her faith is to her. I've aimed to speak to her pastor, though did not have the time during my last journey to Canada.
As such I've come here. I'd appreciate any insight anyone in a similar situation might have. In particular I'm looking for answers to the questions she's been unable to help me with (Or that have been too sensitive for me to raise with her). I'm not aiming to discuss whether this God exists or dosen't, but instead to understand why if this God does exist, I should want to worship them.

I have a moral quandary with Christianity. Several in fact. I struggle to understanding why a person would want to worship your God. A being that, by description, cares not for the actions and activity of a person in life.
A person could be all but the definition of a Saint, performing deeds that improve the world and other's lives greatly. Yet unless they do so in the name of your God, they are condemned to eternal torment, whether this be through the concept of Hell (We have discussed the differences between this and Gehenna) or the eventual torment that comes with Armageddon.
To me, this is an innately unloving action which contradicts the concept of a loving God. To condemn a person for all eternity based on whether they praise you enough I do find the ultimate form of vanity. I would appreciate insight into this.

Fate, omniscience, God and the idea of the "Original Sin" are another issue I see with Christianity. An omniscient God created the world and everything in it (If we are to go by the young earth direct interpretation as given by the Bible. She is unsure whether she believes in this, but does not disagree with the potential so I will be using this as an example).
If this being is omniscient, then their future knowledge would leave them to have the ultimate power during their acts of creation. They created the world, the animals, the water and the first humans within it. In doing this, they created, sculpted and placed each original creature/tree/mountain/human in a specific spot and designed in a specific manner (Mental state, understanding, desire and current thought pattern).
Even before Humans would have been placed like this, God would already have known that they were being designed in such a way that they would eat of the forbidden fruit.
The choice to eat was never there. As such, Humans in Christianity were punished for thousands of years for a sin that God chose for them to make, until at last his child was sent to die for God's chosen sin and to free them from those shackles that he put upon Humanity.
Again, I struggle to see a kind and loving God here. I struggle to see a reason why I should want to worship this being, even before considering whether it is real.

The Old Testament and how worship has changed since. I have researched into the Old Testament and its contrast to the new and there are particularly distinct differences between the two. In the Old Testament there is a greater focus on punishment and the process to shed your sin through sacrifice or ritual, while the New Testament focuses more on love and connections between people.
Is there any point during this transition that the Old Testament becomes no longer a subject of practice for Christians? I've been informed that the sacrifices to cleanse oneself from sin became invalid in the coming of Jesus Christ, however I ask about the punishments then.
Leviticus 20 is renowned as an issue in this regard. Here are a few particularly unacceptable punishments I see.
20:9 - Any person that swears at either of their parents should be put to death.
20:13 - Two men in a gay relationship should be put to death if they act upon it sexually.
20:18 - A couple having sexual relations during her period should result in both individuals being exiled.
If the Old Testament are still valid, then these actions are condoned as the correct action to make. I would like to understand why a person would want to worship a God that demands such things for these actions.

I have many further issues, but I don't want to dilute the focus of this thread by creating too many points to discuss. For the time being, these three issues are where I would appreciate the focus falling.

I apologise if this is not where this post should lie. I had wanted to place it within "Christian Apologetics" but was disallowed to receive help with my dilemma unless I had already posted 100 times and received at least 5 likes.
As a new member, asking this before allowing me to speak is the equivalent of turning a blind issue to my request for help.

Thank you for your time.

What books are you two reading together to help you sort out this quandary?

Albion · Oct 8, 2019

Will,

At first, I thought that you were hoping to achieve something that is nearly impossible to pull off. However, as I read the whole thing more closely, I thought there might be a chance, BUT I also think that you need to go straight to a solid, trained clergyman or theologian.

I say this because there ARE answers to your questions, but it likely will take a person who knows his stuff to make it clear to you. A hodge-podge of replies from laymen of differing faiths here on CF is unlikely to serve you well, IMO. I'd say the same about engaging in joint Bible study with your gf.

Emmylouwho · Oct 8, 2019

Will_C said:
Hello.

I'm looking for answers from Christians in particular, although I won't turn anyone away if they have advise or understanding to give.

I come from a particularly Atheist background in my upbringing. My parents both strongly disbelieving. My school touching on, but not truly delving into the finer details of the Christian Faith (I do not have an issue with this. I think it was good to get a broader view of the many religions). My friendship group all dismissing religion as a whole, let along Christianity.
I myself am Agnostic. While I do not believe there is a powerful creator that designed the world and all the people within it in its image, I do not doubt that there are things we do not currently know and it is possible that this could be due to some otherworldly being -whether that be Buddha, God, Allah, Brahma or one of the many others.

In the last 1.5 years, I have entered a relationship with a Christian. Amongst a litany of different issues that a long distance relationship brings, our differences in faith have been a challenge.
I am open to discussion and understanding and the two of us have begun working through a series of books to help explain a more scientific understanding of Christianity to me and we plan to read through the Bible together in the future. This is all grounding to explain that I am receptive to understanding the broader brush strokes of her, and your, faith.

My difficulty comes in the form that there are many underlying issues I see within Christianity. I want to be gentle with how I approach this topic with her as I understand how important her faith is to her. I've aimed to speak to her pastor, though did not have the time during my last journey to Canada.
As such I've come here. I'd appreciate any insight anyone in a similar situation might have. In particular I'm looking for answers to the questions she's been unable to help me with (Or that have been too sensitive for me to raise with her). I'm not aiming to discuss whether this God exists or dosen't, but instead to understand why if this God does exist, I should want to worship them.

I have a moral quandary with Christianity. Several in fact. I struggle to understanding why a person would want to worship your God. A being that, by description, cares not for the actions and activity of a person in life.
A person could be all but the definition of a Saint, performing deeds that improve the world and other's lives greatly. Yet unless they do so in the name of your God, they are condemned to eternal torment, whether this be through the concept of Hell (We have discussed the differences between this and Gehenna) or the eventual torment that comes with Armageddon.
To me, this is an innately unloving action which contradicts the concept of a loving God. To condemn a person for all eternity based on whether they praise you enough I do find the ultimate form of vanity. I would appreciate insight into this.

Fate, omniscience, God and the idea of the "Original Sin" are another issue I see with Christianity. An omniscient God created the world and everything in it (If we are to go by the young earth direct interpretation as given by the Bible. She is unsure whether she believes in this, but does not disagree with the potential so I will be using this as an example).
If this being is omniscient, then their future knowledge would leave them to have the ultimate power during their acts of creation. They created the world, the animals, the water and the first humans within it. In doing this, they created, sculpted and placed each original creature/tree/mountain/human in a specific spot and designed in a specific manner (Mental state, understanding, desire and current thought pattern).
Even before Humans would have been placed like this, God would already have known that they were being designed in such a way that they would eat of the forbidden fruit.
The choice to eat was never there. As such, Humans in Christianity were punished for thousands of years for a sin that God chose for them to make, until at last his child was sent to die for God's chosen sin and to free them from those shackles that he put upon Humanity.
Again, I struggle to see a kind and loving God here. I struggle to see a reason why I should want to worship this being, even before considering whether it is real.

The Old Testament and how worship has changed since. I have researched into the Old Testament and its contrast to the new and there are particularly distinct differences between the two. In the Old Testament there is a greater focus on punishment and the process to shed your sin through sacrifice or ritual, while the New Testament focuses more on love and connections between people.
Is there any point during this transition that the Old Testament becomes no longer a subject of practice for Christians? I've been informed that the sacrifices to cleanse oneself from sin became invalid in the coming of Jesus Christ, however I ask about the punishments then.
Leviticus 20 is renowned as an issue in this regard. Here are a few particularly unacceptable punishments I see.
20:9 - Any person that swears at either of their parents should be put to death.
20:13 - Two men in a gay relationship should be put to death if they act upon it sexually.
20:18 - A couple having sexual relations during her period should result in both individuals being exiled.
If the Old Testament are still valid, then these actions are condoned as the correct action to make. I would like to understand why a person would want to worship a God that demands such things for these actions.

I have many further issues, but I don't want to dilute the focus of this thread by creating too many points to discuss. For the time being, these three issues are where I would appreciate the focus falling.

I apologise if this is not where this post should lie. I had wanted to place it within "Christian Apologetics" but was disallowed to receive help with my dilemma unless I had already posted 100 times and received at least 5 likes.
As a new member, asking this before allowing me to speak is the equivalent of turning a blind issue to my request for help.

Thank you for your time.

Can you describe your atheistic background a bit further?

drich0150 · Oct 9, 2019

Will_C said:
Hello.

I'm looking for answers from Christians in particular, although I won't turn anyone away if they have advise or understanding to give.

I come from a particularly Atheist background in my upbringing. My parents both strongly disbelieving. My school touching on, but not truly delving into the finer details of the Christian Faith (I do not have an issue with this. I think it was good to get a broader view of the many religions). My friendship group all dismissing religion as a whole, let along Christianity.
I myself am Agnostic. While I do not believe there is a powerful creator that designed the world and all the people within it in its image, I do not doubt that there are things we do not currently know and it is possible that this could be due to some otherworldly being -whether that be Buddha, God, Allah, Brahma or one of the many others.

In the last 1.5 years, I have entered a relationship with a Christian. Amongst a litany of different issues that a long distance relationship brings, our differences in faith have been a challenge.
I am open to discussion and understanding and the two of us have begun working through a series of books to help explain a more scientific understanding of Christianity to me and we plan to read through the Bible together in the future. This is all grounding to explain that I am receptive to understanding the broader brush strokes of her, and your, faith.

wow.. it is good to hear that people push through to belief despite the odds.

My difficulty comes in the form that there are many underlying issues I see within Christianity. I want to be gentle with how I approach this topic with her as I understand how important her faith is to her. I've aimed to speak to her pastor, though did not have the time during my last journey to Canada.
As such I've come here. I'd appreciate any insight anyone in a similar situation might have. In particular I'm looking for answers to the questions she's been unable to help me with (Or that have been too sensitive for me to raise with her). I'm not aiming to discuss whether this God exists or doesn't, but instead to understand why if this God does exist, I should want to worship them.

never be afraid to ask questions in fact we are commanded to do so in 1 thess 5:21. "Question all things and hold on to what is good."
this does not mean only question the questionable this also means to question the foundational.

I have a moral quandary with Christianity. Several in fact. I struggle to understanding why a person would want to worship your God. A being that, by description, cares not for the actions and activity of a person in life.
A person could be all but the definition of a Saint, performing deeds that improve the world and other's lives greatly. Yet unless they do so in the name of your God, they are condemned to eternal torment, whether this be through the concept of Hell (We have discussed the differences between this and Gehenna) or the eventual torment that comes with Armageddon.
To me, this is an innately unloving action which contradicts the concept of a loving God. To condemn a person for all eternity based on whether they praise you enough I do find the ultimate form of vanity. I would appreciate insight into this.

you've got 4 or 5 different things going on here bear with me as I try to break them down.

1a. God is involved in our lives. not too sure what you are referencing that makes you think God is distant and apart from his people. in fact the Holy Spirit of God is been dispatched to directly deal with us on an individual level. Jesus said that was one of the reasons He went back was so the Father would send the holy Spirit to interact with us ne on one.

1b. Doing things in God's name points back to him giving the power resources and authority to accomplish HIS will for us in this life. Let's say you think a given people need something real like a well for their village and you spend you time money and personal resources to put this well together and establish it. later these people are taken over by a ISIS type of group and use their resources like this well to persecute the next village over which happens to be christian...

Why would God want you to expend what he has given you to be used in the torment of his people? This is often what happens when you seek out to do your will over what God wants to be done.

The idea is to work with the will of God not against it. if you are in the giving God the glory business then you will not be so proud as to presume to know what works you are doing must be done. You must simply make yourself and the resources God has given you available, whether you can see and approve the net result of your works or not.

1c. God is not sending people to hell for not working correctly in his kingdom. Works are set apart from salvation once you are saved works are simply "credits" that help you build treasure and wealth in the next life. if your work, works against God in this life you still can be saved but as one who comes to heaven homeless with nothing more than the 'shirt on your back'. Where as if you work for and with God in this life seeing God's glory and not your own you will enter heaven to much reward and responsibility.

Fate, omniscience, God and the idea of the "Original Sin" are another issue I see with Christianity.

most forms of Christianity do not include original sin as part of their doctrines. we are not born sinners we are born unto sin. meaning we are not responsible for sin till we are old enough to understand what sin is. this is known as the doctrine of the age of accountability. it is an alternative teaching to the idea that being born is a sin. It says we must understand sin as adam and eve did before they were held to account for what they did.

An omniscient God created the world and everything in it (If we are to go by the young earth direct interpretation as given by the Bible. She is unsure whether she believes in this, but does not disagree with the potential so I will be using this as an example).

If this being is omniscient, then their future knowledge would leave them to have the ultimate power during their acts of creation. They created the world, the animals, the water and the first humans within it. In doing this, they created, sculpted and placed each original creature/tree/mountain/human in a specific spot and designed in a specific manner (Mental state, understanding, desire and current thought pattern).
Even before Humans would have been placed like this, God would already have known that they were being designed in such a way that they would eat of the forbidden fruit. The choice to eat was never there.

unless the choice was always apart of the original plan, as was atonement and salvation through the cross. Meaning all of this was done to give those who do not want to serve God for an eternity a way out. and those who do freedom from the law under christ.

As such, Humans in Christianity were punished for thousands of years for a sin that God chose for them to make, until at last his child was sent to die for God's chosen sin and to free them from those shackles that he put upon Humanity.
Again, I struggle to see a kind and loving God here. I struggle to see a reason why I should want to worship this being, even before considering whether it is real.

Click to expand...

the cost of sin was evenly shared in that man and woman was given what they could bear and God bore the rest on the cross to allow those who want to live apart from God the freedom to do so. Imagine what an hard core member of ISIS would do in god's church if he had no other choices.. Not every one want to be in service of the God of the bible. for Some it is better to go to hell than to serve in heaven.
[*]The Old Testament and how worship has changed since. I have researched into the Old Testament and its contrast to the new and there are particularly distinct differences between the two. In the Old Testament there is a greater focus on punishment and the process to shed your sin through sacrifice or ritual, while the New Testament focuses more on love and connections between people.

Click to expand...

that is because Christ took all of the punishment of the old testament and bore it himself to become that ultimate sacrifice. so that those underhim may live free from punishment. That is what atonement is. it is to pay the debt owed by sin.
Is there any point during this transition that the Old Testament becomes no longer a subject of practice for Christians?

Click to expand...

yes the New testament or the death burial and resurrection of Christ begins the new age or the new covenant. Act chapter two was the exact moment when the Holy Spirit was poured out over the church.
[*] I've been informed that the sacrifices to cleanse oneself from sin became invalid in the coming of Jesus Christ, however I ask about the punishments then.

Click to expand...

again christ absorbed all of the need for sacrifice and punishment for those who seek atonement through him. for those who do not that what hell is for. it is eternal seperation from the God and people they do not like.

Leviticus 20 is renowned as an issue in this regard. Here are a few particularly unacceptable punishments I see.
20:9 - Any person that swears at either of their parents should be put to death.
20:13 - Two men in a gay relationship should be put to death if they act upon it sexually.
20:18 - A couple having sexual relations during her period should result in both individuals being exiled.
If the Old Testament are still valid, then these actions are condoned as the correct action to make. I would like to understand why a person would want to worship a God that demands such things for these actions.

Click to expand...

Not even modern Jews follow these laws. only OT jews were bound to the laws as their only path to righteousness. Our path to righteousness is through Christ alone and not of our works or ability to follow the law.

I have many further issues, but I don't want to dilute the focus of this thread by creating too many points to discuss. For the time being, these three issues are where I would appreciate the focus falling.

I apologise if this is not where this post should lie. I had wanted to place it within "Christian Apologetics" but was disallowed to receive help with my dilemma unless I had already posted 100 times and received at least 5 likes.
As a new member, asking this before allowing me to speak is the equivalent of turning a blind issue to my request for help.

Thank you for your time.

let me know if there is anything else I can do to help.

yeshuaslavejeff · Oct 10, 2019

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Will_C said:
I'm not aiming to discuss whether this God exists or dosen't, but instead to understand why if this God does exist, I should want to worship them.

Because He is the Sovereign Almighty Creator and the ONLY WAY (Through Jesus Messiah Savior King of the Jews) to not perish in destruction.

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