Sola scriptura or ECF-like traditions of man? Christ in Mark 7

Mountainmike

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I see no argument above that invalidates the counsel of following "Christian thought, theology, prayer, and practice." Never, ever trust another's teaching who will infallibly state and inform us of what God thought.

I see a contradiction of what you said..

It is called the bible which contradicts you: where it gives the apostles jointly and peter alone ( and so successors) the power to "bind and loose". Which is exactly the ability to give definitive judgement on matters of law which we are assured will be "bound in heaven". That is what that phrase meant to the jews of the time.

Without that you could not trust any product of the church, including the new testament canon itself! I should point out the first canon was rejected by the church at Rome. If you think it was the "Only" canon, think again: it took centuries before the church finally decided it, so if you think it is infallible, then men were acting infallibly! No surprise there, God often gives that to men in a limited context. The authors of the gospel for example!

Jesus also said "listen to them, when they teach from moses seat" showing the authority. The precursor to the cathedra of the pope.
 
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Crosstian

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The bible gives disciples the power to bind and loose, ...
Having nothing whatsoever to do with adding anything to scripture, meaning or otherwise. It has to do with accepting or rejecting (even cutting off at times) members of the body of Christ, based upon Thus saith the LORD, and It is written, and the preaching of the remission of sins in Christ Jesus, the ministry of reconciliation by the preaching thereof.

Paul gives an example:

2Co_2:10 To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ;
 
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BobRyan

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Dont bother with the party political broadcast

I assume you posted your party topic on the wrong thread. I am looking at actual scripture and a much-to-be-avoided example from the life of Christ.

The point I am making is above all that.

I assume you are claiming to have the easy answer for the teaching Christ provides in Mark 7. Fine...lets have it.

The idea that tradition "faith handed down" is "put above scripture" or just a distillation of it depends entirely on an apriori subjective view of what scripture means.

Turns out - the answer to that is pretty obvious in Acts 17:11 and in Mark 7:6-13 because Christ outright quotes it. And I know of no church - not even yours - the debates against the scriptures being identified there in context.

Where was the "difficulty" supposed to be??

I am using very very simple examples. I am not simply spouting my "opinions".

A separate source of truth is needed to resolve the conflicts.

Fine. In Mark 7 we have conflict - and so what is the "separate source of truth" Christ uses there to resolve the conflict in the presence of all the onlookers? (Seriously - this is not the hard part and I know many here will agree on that one point at least)

My goal (as stated in the OP ) is not to condemn every word that an ECF stated. I freely admit that some of what they said will turn out to be correct.
 
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Crosstian

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...If you think it was the "Only" canon, think again: it took centuries before the church finally decided it, ...
Nonsense. The "church in the wilderness" was given the "oracles" of God and already knew what constituted OT canon, which included nothing of the Catholic greek texts (the Levites would have been appalled). As for the NT, they were accepted within their own generation, and Paul warned of the spurious "epistles" already circulating, and of those already corrupting God's word.

How Many Books Are In The Old Testament?

A Challenge To The Scripture Expert At EWTN

Rebuttal To Catholic Apologetics International On The Old Testament Canon

"The apocryphal books were not admitted into the canon of Scripture during the first four centuries of the Christian church. They are not mentioned in the catalogue of inspired writings made by Melito, bishop of Sardis, who flourished in the second century, nor in those of Origen, in the third century, of Athanasius, Hilary, Cyril of Jerusalem, Epiphanius, Gregory Nazianzen, Amphilochius, Jerome, Rufinus, and others of the fourth century; nor in the catalogue of canonical books recognized by the Council of Laodicea, held in the same century, whose canons were received by the Catholic Church; so that, as Bishop Burnet well observes, "we have the concurring sense of the whole church of God in this matter." To this decisive evidence against the canonical authority of the apocryphal books, we may add that they were never read in the Christian church until the fourth century, when, as Jerome informs us, they were read "for example of life and instruction of manners, but were not applied to establish any doctrine;" and contemporary writers state that although they were not approved as canonical or inspired writings, yet some of them, particularly Judith, Wisdom, and Ecclesiasticus, were allowed to be perused by catechumens. As proof that they were not regarded as canonical in the fifth century, Augustine relates that when the book of Wisdom was publicly read in the church, it was given to the readers or inferior ecclesiastical officers, who read it in a lower place than those books which were universally acknowledged to be canonical, which were read by the bishops and presbyters in a more eminent and conspicuous manner. To conclude: Notwithstanding the veneration in which these books were held by the Western Church, it is evident that the same authority was never ascribed to them as to the Old and New Testament; until the last Council of Trent, at its fourth session, presumed to place them all (excepting the prayer of Manasseh and the third and fourth books of Esdras) in the same rank with the inspired writings of Moses and the prophets." - An Introduction to the Critical Study and Knowledge of the Holy Scriptures. by Thomas Hartwell Horne, B.D. of Saint John's College, Cambridge; rector of the United Parishes of Saint Edmund the King and Martyr and Saint Nicholas Acons, Lombard Street; Prebendary of Saint Paul's; New Edition, from the Eighth London Edition, Corrected and Enlarged. Illustrated with numerous maps and fac-similies of Bilical Manuscripts. Volume I. Philadelphia: Published by J. Whetham & Son, 144 Chestnut Street. Stereotyped by L. Johnson. 1841.; page 426 (left column) - An Introduction to the Critical Study and Knowledge of the Holy Scriptures

Apocrypha, and the reasons they are not accepted as "canon":

"... 1. Not one of them is in the Hebrew language, which was alone (a little Syriac/Chaldee in Daniel, etc.) used by the inspired historians and poets of the Old Testament.

2. Not one of the writers lays any claim to inspiration.

3. These books were never acknowledged as sacred Scriptures by the Jewish Church, and therefore were never sanctioned by our Lord.

4. They were not allowed a place among the sacred books, during the first four centuries of the Christian Church.

5. They contain fabulous statements, and statements which contradict not only the canonical Scriptures, but themselves; as when, in the two Books of Maccabees, Antiochus Epiphanes is made to die three different deaths in as many different places.

6. It inculcates doctrines at variance with the Bible, such as prayers for the dead...

7. It teaches immoral practices, such as lying, suicide, assassination and magical incantation. ..." - bro. Sam Gipp - https://samgipp.com/answerbook/?page=34.htm

Furthermore, Paul's epistles were already accepted as "scripture" in Peter's day.
 
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anna ~ grace

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@BobRyan , you are asking the wrong questions, and looking at this from the wrong point of view.

The Apostolic and post-Apostolic Christians simply did not view a dichotomy between what we now think of as Scripture and what we now think of as Tradition. They simply didn't.

They used what the Apostles and those who learned from the Apostles had given them, whether oral, or written. Whether a practice, a liturgy, a text, a belief, or a prayer rule. One did not stand on top of, inform, test, or take precedence over the other. They were not seem as two separate things, or competing things, but as one thing.
 
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Crosstian

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... what we now think of as Tradition. ...
Love of the Truth the Safeguard

"... To avoid being taken in this snare of Satan the people were admonished to cleave to the "truth," to "the word." Of those who would be involved in this great apostasy the apostle said, "They received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved." "Who believed not the truth" "God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the the spirit and belief of the truth." As to what truth is here meant, we read: "Brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle." 2Thess.2:10, 12, 13, 15. {1907 JNL, COOD 75.3}

Opinions Instead of the Word

As this falling away is traced through the pages of history, there is seen in its growth a departure from the direct teachings of the word of God. Instead [76] of cleaving to the Bible as their only standard of faith, and expressing that faith in scripture language, there came into their teaching a mystical principle of interpretation. Instead of following the advice of Paul to "consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things," they were telling what the Bible meant, their interpretations often being contrary to what the scriptures in other portions taught. Those who adhered directly to "the word of truth" saw in this mystery-work a development of just what the apostle had predicted. As they proclaimed against this innovation there arose a direct conflict between those who taught plainly stated Bible truths, and those who adhered to creeds formulated by men. The teachers of the creeds being "high minded" and self-confident, soon lost the molding influence of the Lord's Spirit in their hearts. And so the people who followed the creed-makers were rapidly corrupted from the simplicity of the gospel. {1907 JNL, COOD 75.4}

The Five Steps of Apostasy

In setting up of this "abomination that maketh desolate" (Dan.12:11), we see that five distinct steps were taken:- {1907 JNL, COOD 76.1}

1. Forming a creed, expressing their faith in man-made phrases instead of adhering to the word of the Lord. {1907 JNL, COOD 76.2}

2. Making that man-made creed a test of fellowship, and denouncing all as heretics who would not assent to the exact wording of their creeds. {1907 JNL, COOD 76.3}

3. Making the creed a rule by which all heretics must be tried. Many were thus declared sinners whose faith was more in harmony with the direct statements of the Bible than that of those who decreed against them. {1907 JNL, COOD 76.4}

4. Constituting themselves a tribunal for the trial of heretics, and excluding from their fellowship all who would not assent to their creeds. Not content to debar [77] such from church privileges in this world, they declared them subjects for the lake of fire. {1907 JNL, COOD 76.5}

5. Having thus kindled a hatred in their own hearts against all who did not conform to their creeds, they next invoked and obtained the aid of the civil power to torture, and kill with sword, with hunger, with flame, and with beasts of the earth, those whom they had declared unfit to remain in the world. {1907 JNL, COOD 77.1}

Then appeared on the stage of action one class of professed Christians with a head over them, actually declaring that he was "God on earth," persecuting another class of Christians who were conscientiously following the Lord and his Word, - a class of whom it might be said, in the light in which God views them (as was said, of the ancient worthies), "of whom the world was not worthy." Heb.11:38. {1907 JNL, COOD 77.2} ..."
 
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anna ~ grace

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Love of the Truth the Safeguard

"... To avoid being taken in this snare of Satan the people were admonished to cleave to the "truth," to "the word." Of those who would be involved in this great apostasy the apostle said, "They received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved." "Who believed not the truth" "God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the the spirit and belief of the truth." As to what truth is here meant, we read: "Brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle." 2Thess.2:10, 12, 13, 15. {1907 JNL, COOD 75.3}

Opinions Instead of the Word

As this falling away is traced through the pages of history, there is seen in its growth a departure from the direct teachings of the word of God. Instead [76] of cleaving to the Bible as their only standard of faith, and expressing that faith in scripture language, there came into their teaching a mystical principle of interpretation. Instead of following the advice of Paul to "consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things," they were telling what the Bible meant, their interpretations often being contrary to what the scriptures in other portions taught. Those who adhered directly to "the word of truth" saw in this mystery-work a development of just what the apostle had predicted. As they proclaimed against this innovation there arose a direct conflict between those who taught plainly stated Bible truths, and those who adhered to creeds formulated by men. The teachers of the creeds being "high minded" and self-confident, soon lost the molding influence of the Lord's Spirit in their hearts. And so the people who followed the creed-makers were rapidly corrupted from the simplicity of the gospel. {1907 JNL, COOD 75.4}

The Five Steps of Apostasy

In setting up of this "abomination that maketh desolate" (Dan.12:11), we see that five distinct steps were taken:- {1907 JNL, COOD 76.1}

1. Forming a creed, expressing their faith in man-made phrases instead of adhering to the word of the Lord. {1907 JNL, COOD 76.2}

2. Making that man-made creed a test of fellowship, and denouncing all as heretics who would not assent to the exact wording of their creeds. {1907 JNL, COOD 76.3}

3. Making the creed a rule by which all heretics must be tried. Many were thus declared sinners whose faith was more in harmony with the direct statements of the Bible than that of those who decreed against them. {1907 JNL, COOD 76.4}

4. Constituting themselves a tribunal for the trial of heretics, and excluding from their fellowship all who would not assent to their creeds. Not content to debar [77] such from church privileges in this world, they declared them subjects for the lake of fire. {1907 JNL, COOD 76.5}

5. Having thus kindled a hatred in their own hearts against all who did not conform to their creeds, they next invoked and obtained the aid of the civil power to torture, and kill with sword, with hunger, with flame, and with beasts of the earth, those whom they had declared unfit to remain in the world. {1907 JNL, COOD 77.1}

Then appeared on the stage of action one class of professed Christians with a head over them, actually declaring that he was "God on earth," persecuting another class of Christians who were conscientiously following the Lord and his Word, - a class of whom it might be said, in the light in which God views them (as was said, of the ancient worthies), "of whom the world was not worthy." Heb.11:38. {1907 JNL, COOD 77.2} ..."

And, again, the forced dichotomy between Scripture and Christian belief and practice would have been completely unfamiliar to the Apostolic Christians, and the Early Church.

They would have prayed, read, listened, fasted, believed, and lived as Christians while revering the Gospels, and while also asking the Theotokos for help and mercy, not thinking anything wrong with either. Why? Well, because both written Scripture and Christian praxis were given by the Apostles. And by those who learned from them.

Sub tuum praesidium - Wikipedia
 
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BobRyan

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@BobRyan , you are asking the wrong questions, and looking at this from the wrong point of view.

1. I am asking questions that are very specific to the content of the OP and subject of the thread.
2. I am providing the simplest example one could possible ask for from scripture.
3. I am questioning the "go read 300 years of tradition before talking about a simple example in one of the Gospels" limitation

The Apostolic and post-Apostolic Christians simply did not view a dichotomy between what we now think of as Scripture and what we now think of as Tradition. They simply didn't.

A variable that has been entirely eliminated in the example I give - because Christ himself selects what is accepted by both opposing groups in Mark 7 - as "scripture". It is a level of misdirection to try and insert that controversy into the example we have in Christ in Mark 7.

They used what the Apostles and those who learned from the Apostles had given them,

a variable totally removed in the example we are dealing with
 
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FenderTL5

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@BobRyan , you are asking the wrong questions, and looking at this from the wrong point of view.

The Apostolic and post-Apostolic Christians simply did not view a dichotomy between what we now think of as Scripture and what we now think of as Tradition. They simply didn't.

They used what the Apostles and those who learned from the Apostles had given them, whether oral, or written. Whether a practice, a liturgy, a text, a belief, or a prayer rule. One did not stand on top of, inform, test, or take precedence over the other. They were not seem as two separate things, or competing things, but as one thing.
I originally questioned the OP as a false dichotomy. I was mistaken, it's a straw-man argument from the outset. The OP sets out to establish sola-scripture on one hand and anything else is:
..turning from scripture and insisting that traditions of man are all that matters...
It's a, 'have you stopped beating your wife' premise.
No Church teaches, turning from scripture and insisting that traditions of man are all that matters.

Tradition being passed on is how we have the New Testament.
If we take a strict view of Mark 7, we throw out large portions of the New Testament, if not all of it.

Luke introduces itself as tradition that was handed down;
Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been surely believed among us, just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. Therefore, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, it seemed good also to me to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught (Luke 1:1-4).

Some approach this topic as-if there were freshly printed copies of the New Testament at the merchandise table on the side of the mount at the Ascension. It's ridiculous.
 
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Not David

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Ps 1:1 "In the seat of scoffers" -- in the place of, in the role of.
Matt 23:2 "in the seat of Moses" - in the place of, in the role of.

But we "see" how Jesus taught "in action" as he hammers the so-called holy tradition of the one true nation-church started by God at Sinai -- sola scriptura
Not related to the Seat of Moses
 
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Not David

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People argue against "trinity" because there is no such word in the Bible. Yet there is a number of verses that pertain to the theological word.

They argue against "rapture" because they say there is no such word in the Bible. Yet there is a number of verses that pertain to the theological word.

You argue against "sola scrptura" because you say that it was never mentioned in the Bible. Yet, the Lord Jesus used "sola scriptura" when he was tempted of the devil.. Jesus time and again said "It is written".

We are admonished in many verses and in many ways to "hold fast our confession of faith without wavering for He is faithful who promised."

Definition of "sola scriptura": The scripture alone is authoritative for christian faith and practice.
The word of God is supreme over all things because
Mat.4:4 "Man does not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God."

When Jesus said it is written in order to counter satan's temptations.. Jesus demonstrated the authority of the written Word of God.

The religious leaders asked Jesus in Lk.20:2 “Tell us,” they said, “by what authority are You doing these things, and who gave You this authority?”

Deuteronomy 10:17 "The Lord your God is supreme over all gods and over all powers. He is great and mighty, and he is to be obeyed. He does not show partiality, and he does not accept bribes."

1 Cor. 2:4-5 "And my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, that your faith should not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God."
Still not Sola Scriptura.
 
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