jgr

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I listened to a video on Preterism and it was very convincing, but when you read prophecy, Preterism leaves too many unanswered points. I can understand how some could be partial Preterists, but not full Presterism. But the danger seems to be anti-Semitism.

The scribes and Pharisees were Semites.

Was Jesus antisemitic?

Matthew 23
13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

16 Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!

17 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?

18 And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty.

19 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?

20 Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon.

21 And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein.

22 And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.

23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,

30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.

31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.

32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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CharismaticLady said:
I listened to a video on Preterism and it was very convincing, but when you read prophecy, Preterism leaves too many unanswered points. I can understand how some could be partial Preterists, but not full Presterism. But the danger seems to be anti-Semitism.
The scribes and Pharisees were Semites.
Was Jesus antisemitic?
Matthew 23 33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Good point jgr.
It appears Jesus only spoke about that to the Jews, mainly the Jewish rulers........
Paul never mentioned Gehenna/Hellfire in his Epistles......interesting

Matthew 23:33 "Serpents! offspring of vipers! how? ye may be fleeing from the judging<2920> of the Gehenna <1067>

Revelation 14:11 And the Smoke of the tormenting of Them is ascending into Ages to-Ages.......... [Ezekiel 39:12/Luke 16:24,26]

Is the "GEHENNA" of Matt 23:33 the "LAKE OF FIRE" in Revelation? Poll thread
Gehenna and Lake of Fire the same?
  1. *
    I view them the same
    5 vote(s)
    71.4%
  2. No, they are not the same
    2 vote(s)
    28.6%
  3. Maybe
    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. I never thought about it
    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  5. I don't know
    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  6. Other
    0 vote(s)
    0.0%

 
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mkgal1

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Are Catholics preterist?
All Christians are some degree of preterist. This is the definition of preterism:

preterism comes from the Latin praeter, which Webster's 1913 Dictionary lists as a prefix denoting that something is "past" or "beyond"​
 
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keras

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I have noting against Jews and their religion of OC Mosaic Judaism tho some futurists believe they will incur the wrath of God in the future....Member "keras" for one........
I believe it because the Prophetic Word says that Judah will be punished and only a remnant will survive.
Look at my post #54 in the Second Exodus thread.

I do agree with your article; Don't call us anti-Semitic.
The Jews need Jesus, but they won't hear any of it. All part of God's Plan.
 
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mkgal1

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Just the part I quoted.
Acts 8 says otherwise:

Acts 8:1 ~ Saul was in full agreement with Stephen's murder. At that time, the church in Jerusalem began to be subjected to vicious harassment. Everyone - except the apostles - was scattered throughout the regions of Judea and Samaria.
 
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Christian Gedge

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Please offer us your timeline and explanation of Daniel 9:27.

Yes please Charismatic Lady. It would help us better understand your position.

In the meanwhile, here is my timeline. Slightly different to mkgals, but only slightly.

daniels-70-weeks.png
 
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DavidPT

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Yes please Charismatic Lady. It would help us better understand your position.

In the meanwhile, here is my timeline. Slightly different to mkgals, but only slightly.

View attachment 264633

and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


I'm not seeing where your timeline takes this part into account. This too has to be fulfilled during the 70th week, and not after the 70th week instead. And BTW, the prophecies in verses 25-27 are only concerning what takes place between the beginning of the 70 weeks and the ending of the 70 weeks. None of it is involving anything post the 70 weeks, such as your timeline is showing. Even if some of verse 26 is meaning 70 AD, and that if one places a gap between the 69th and 70th week, the events of 70 AD still get fulfilled after the beginning of the 70 weeks, but prior to the end of it.
 
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parousia70

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I listened to a video on Preterism and it was very convincing, but when you read prophecy, Preterism leaves too many unanswered points. I can understand how some could be partial Preterists, but not full Presterism. But the danger seems to be anti-Semitism.

Actually, the danger of antisemitism lies squarely at the feet of consistent futurism.

Here are some verses that show this to be true:

And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the Great City which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified. (Rev. 11:8)

This verse designates Jerusalem as "Sodom and Egypt" because it was in Jerusalem that the Lord Jesus was crucified. If we are to say this verse refers to a time in our future and is not yet fulfilled, then we must also say that Jerusalem remains the spiritual "Sodom and Egypt" to this very day because of its Messianic blood-guilt, and that it must remain so indicted until the Judgment of Rev. 11:13-19 is fulfilled sometime in our future. This conclusion is inescapable if the passage has yet to be fulfilled.

And if Rev. 11:13-19 is yet unfulfilled, this logically implies that Paul's indictment against Jews must also remain intact to this very day, specifically, that "the Jews [who "killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets"] ...are ...hostile to all men" and that "they always fill up the measure of their sins." (I Thess. 2:14-16)

Consistent futurism logically produces a very dangerous ambiguity and ambivalence toward modern-day "Jews" in that, on the one hand, they are in some sense "God's chosen people," while on the other hand they remain a blood-guilty race of enemies (Rom. 11:28) who are opposed to all men, and whose metropolis is "Egypt" and "Sodom" until Revelation 11 is fulfilled. This is the hateful fruit of consistent futurism.

In the preterist doctrine, in contrast, Jerusalem was "given to the nations" by God in the late 60's, A.D., and the Great City was then trampled under foot until it was destroyed in A. D. 70. In those terrible "days of vengeance," the wrath of God against the Jews came to the utmost (I Thess. 2:16; Heb. 10:26-31) and they paid the price for their Messianic blood-guilt to the last penny (Lk. 12:54-59).

After that day, the blood-descendants of Abraham became --covenantally speaking-- simply one of the many ethnic classes in the family of man (Eph. 3:15). There is not one ethnic group (or "race") of men today that is in any sense rejected by God or favored by God over others, but all are freely accepted in Christ and are made One through faith in Him.

How many lives would have been saved if this preterist view of Israel in Bible prophecy had been taught instead of consistent futurism?

Probably millions.
 
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mkgal1

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and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


I'm not seeing where your timeline takes this part into account. This too has to be fulfilled during the 70th week, and not after the 70th week instead.
In the 70th week, Jesus explained why their "house" (the Temple) was made desolate (empty of His presence):

Matthew 23:27-38 ~​
“How terrible it will be for you legal experts and Pharisees! Hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs. They look beautiful on the outside. But inside they are full of dead bones and all kinds of filth.
28 In the same way you look righteous to people. But inside you are full of pretense and rebellion.
29 “How terrible it will be for you legal experts and Pharisees! Hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous.

30 You say, ‘If we had lived in our ancestors' days, we wouldn't have joined them in killing the prophets.'
31 You testify against yourselves that you are children of those who murdered the prophets.
32 Go ahead, complete what your ancestors did.
33 You snakes! You children of snakes! How will you be able to escape the judgment of Ghenna?
34
Therefore, look, I'm sending you prophets, wise people, and legal experts. Some of them you will kill and crucify. And some you will beat in your synagogues and chase from city to city.
35
Therefore, upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been poured out on the earth, from the blood of that righteous man Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah, whom you killed between the temple and the altar.
36 I assure you that all these things will come upon this generation.

Crying over Jerusalem

37 "Jerusalem, Jerusalem! You who kill the prophets and stone those who were sent to you. How often I wanted to gather your people together, just as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings. But you didn't want that.
38 Look, your house is left to you desolate.
 
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mkgal1

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and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


I'm not seeing where your timeline takes this part into account. This too has to be fulfilled during the 70th week, and not after the 70th week instead.
Another thing about this. On the day of Jesus' baptism - the presence of the dove was symbolic of the Spirit hovering over new creation. The dove (the Spirit) also represented God's glory filling the new house (just as His glory filled the tent in Exodus and at the dedication of prayer at Solomon's temple)

In Exodus 40:34–35, when Moses first erected the first house of God, the tabernacle, we read: “Then the cloud covered the tent of meeting, and the glory of the Lord filled the tabernacle. And Moses was not able to enter the tent of meeting because the cloud settled on it, and the glory of the Lord filled the tabernacle.” Two aspects are important: the cloud, which was God’s Spirit or presence, and the fact that it settled (or dwelled) there. The Hebrew word for “settled” is shakan, from which we get the phrase shekinah glory. It simply refers to God’s abiding presence. (Ironically, the Hebrew word for “tabernacle” throughout the book of Exodus is mishkan—the noun form of shakan—which means literally “a dwelling place.”)

This scene is replayed exactly when Solomon dedicates the temple:

And when the priests came out of the Holy Place, a cloud filled the house of the Lord, so that the priests could not stand to minister because of the cloud, for the glory of the Lord filled the house of the Lord. Then Solomon said, “The Lord has said that he would dwell [shakan] in thick darkness. I have indeed built you an exalted house, a place for you to dwell [shakan] in forever” (1 Kings 8:10–13).

This is exactly what God told John the Baptist to watch for in Jesus: “He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain” (John 1:33). It is clear from this image alone that Jesus, the Son of God, was in fact God’s New House, New place of dwelling. Jesus was the New Temple. This would mean, of course, that the old temple in Jerusalem was already obsolete. From the day of the revealing of the true temple to Israel, all those old temple rituals and all the traditions and idolatrous practices that had grown up around them, were nothing but corruption in God’s house. The new house was already established and indwelt by the spirit. That by definition “closed” the other house for covenant business.

According to the law in Leviticus 14:45 - an unclean "house" (the Temple) needs to be destroyed and the stones need to be taken to an "unclean place" (Ghenna - the literal valley outside Jerusalem). The destruction came "at consummation" but it's fate was determined in the 70th week.

ETA: I just discovered this translation (the World English Bible) and believe it's a clear way of articulating that passage. The temple remained desolate even until its destruction:

Daniel 9:27~ He shall make a firm covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease; and on the wing of abominations [shall come] one who makes desolate; and even to the full end, and that determined, shall [wrath] be poured out on the desolate.

.
....and "that determined" part happened upon Jesus' final inspection of the Temple. IOW.....He determined the wrath that would fall on Jerusalem during His ministry. Just because the fall out of the desolate temple didn't happen until 40 years later doesn't matter - He determined it was desolate (and it remained desolate - as the passage states - "even to the full end").
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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In the 70th week, Jesus explained why their "house" (the Temple) was made desolate (empty of His presence):
37 "Jerusalem, Jerusalem! You who kill the prophets and stone those who were sent to you. How often I wanted to gather your people together, just as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings. But you didn't want that.38 Look, your house is left to you desolate.
Hello mkgal.
Yes, Revelation 18................
Have seen my thread Reve 11:1-2?
A member brought up something interesting related to Daniel.......

What about Revelation 11:1-2 SANCTUARY, COURT AND HOLY CITY
Something perhaps interesting to note would be the following.

Revelation 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Assuming the above is to be understood like such---

And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure (1)the sanctuary of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
But the court which is without the sanctuary leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto (2)the Gentiles: and (3)the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.


Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

and (2)the people of the prince that shall come(Revelation 13:3-8) shall destroy (3)the city and (1)the sanctuary

Both passages mention a sanctuary, a city, and a people destroying it. On the surface that might appear to fit with what occurred in 70 AD. But if the prince that shall come is meaning the beast in Revelation 13 though, a 70 AD interpretation of Daniel 9:26 and Revelation 11:1-2 are unlikely in that case.

IMO anyway, the destroying of the city and sanctuary is not meaning in a literal sense, as in it involving a literal city, etc.

=====================================
Visual Timeline of the Roman-Jewish War ARTchive
THE ROMAN-JEWISH WAR


Luke 21:9
“Yet whenever ye should be hearing battles and tumults<181>, no may be being frightened<4422>, for is binding these to be becoming,
but not immediately the End<5056>

1Co 15:24
Then the End<5056>, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.

1 Peter 4:7
Of all-things yet, the End
<5056> is nigh<1448>.
Be sane then, and be sober into the prayers,

Revelation 16:17
and the seventh Messenger pours out His bowl/vial into the air<109>
and came out great Voice from the Sanctuary of the heaven from the Throne saying "it has become!"<1096> [Revelation 21:6]

Revelation 18:
18 And they cried, observing the smoke of Her burning, saying, "What is like to the great City?"
19 and they cast dust upon their heads, and cried, lamenting, weeping and mourning, saying,
"Woe! woe! the great City! in which are rich all those having ships in the sea, out of Her preciousness,
for to one hour was She was desolated.

sidebar-preterism.jpg

========================

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
Proof that Matthew 24 was fully fulfilled in 70 AD!
Also see:
Rapture refuted

The vial of divine wrath, which had been so long pouring out upon this devoted city was now emptying, and JERUSALEM, once "a praise in all the earth," and the subject of a thousand prophecies, deprived of' the staff of life, wrapt in flames, and bleeding on every side sunk into utter ruin and desolation.

Before their final demolition, however, Titus took, a survey of the city and its fortifications ; and, while contemplating their impregnable strength, could not help ascribing his success to the peculiar interposition of the ALMIGHTY HIMSELF. "Had not God himself (exclaimed he) aided out operations, and driven the Jews from their fortresses, it would have been absolutely impossible to have taken them ;
for what could men, and the force of engines, have done against such towers as these ?
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Luke 21:9
“Yet whenever ye should be hearing battles and tumults<181>, no may be being frightened<4422>, for is binding these to be becoming,
but not immediately the End<5056>

1Th 2:16
forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved, so as always to fill up the measure of their sins; but wrath has come upon them to the End<5056>.

1Co 15:24
Then the End<5056>, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.

1 Peter 4:7
Of all-things yet, the End
<5056> is nigh<1448>.
Be sane then, and be sober into the prayers,
========================
G5056 occurs in 4 verses of Revelation.........3 of those concerning Jesus:

Rev 1:8
“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

Rev 2:26
“And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the End, to him I will give power over the nations—

Rev 21:6
And He said to me, “It is done!
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts.
Rev 22:13
“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”[fn]
 
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mkgal1

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I'm new to this preterist game (really - the entire eschatological game, in general) so I had never come across any writing that portrayed the 70 weeks of Daniel to have continued until 70 A.D.

I just found this article this morning:
Daniel’s 70-Week Prophecy (Part 2)

Some Preterists believe that the “end to sacrifice and offering” took place in another sense when the temple (the place of sacrifices and offerings) was destroyed in 70 AD. Tertullian (160-220 AD), for example, writing about Jerusalem’s destruction, said, “Therefore, when these times also were completed, and the Jews subdued, there afterwards ceased in that place ‘libations and sacrifices,’ which thenceforward have not been able to be in that place celebrated [because the temple is gone]” (An Answer to the Jews, Chapter VIII—Of Jerusalem’s Destruction).[1]

Besides Clement and Tertullian, others who viewed Jesus as the “he” of verse 27 include John Wycliffe (1324-1384), Martin Luther (1483-1546), John Calvin (1509-1564), and Isaac Newton (1643-1727).[2] Calvin, for example, said:

For [Daniel] then said, Christ shall confirm the covenant with many for one week, and shall cause the sacrifices and oblation to cease. Afterwards, the abomination that stupifieth shall be added, and desolation or stupor, and then death will distill, says he, upon the astonished or stupefied one. The angel, therefore, there treats of the perpetual devastation of the Temple. So in this passage, without doubt, he treats of the period after the destruction of the Temple; there could be no hope of restoration, as the law with all its ceremonies would then arrive at its termination. With this view Christ quotes this passage in Matthew 24, while he admonishes his hearers diligently to attend to it… Without the slightest doubt, this prophecy was fulfilled when the city was captured and overthrown, and the temple utterly destroyed by Titus the son of Vespasian. This satisfactorily explains the events here predicted (Todd Dennis [9], 2009).​

Any gap then, according to this view, was not a 2000-year gap between weeks 69 and 70, but a roughly 37-year gap between Christ’s ascension and the 3.5 year period of great tribulation leading up to Jerusalem’s destruction in 70 AD (spoken of in verse 26b and 27b).[3] This is said to have been foreseen in Isaiah 61:2, especially as Jesus chose to quote it in Luke 4:18-19. On the surface there seems to be no gap in Isaiah’s statement, but Jesus alluded to one when He stopped after stating that He had come to “proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.” The part He didn’t quote then (“and the day of vengeance of our God”) He later referred to at the end of His ministry when He predicted the destruction of Jerusalem: “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near…for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written…For there will be great distress upon the earth and wrath against this people…” (Luke 21:20-24). The nearly 40-year gap then served the purpose of giving Israel a generation within which to repent.

In this way Isaiah 61:2 and Daniel 9:27 refer to the same two time periods, separated by the same gap, i.e. the acceptable year of the Lord (the 3.5 year-ministry of Jesus) and the day of vengeance (the 3.5 year-siege on Jerusalem leading up to its destruction, what Jesus called “great tribulation” in Matthew 24:21).
Therefore, the first half of the 70th week (3.5 years) established the New Covenant, and the second half of the 70th week (3.5 years) a generation later confirmed the New Covenant by completely abolishing the Old Covenant temple system. The kingdom of God, already established in heaven when Jesus ascended and being lived out among those who followed Christ, was then fully established on earth and given to the saints (Daniel 7:27). It was taken from national Israel and given to the Church, the people whom Jesus said would produce its fruits (See the ‘Parable of the Tenants’ in Matthew 21:33-45).

Some see no gap at all, contending that the last half of the 70th week was fulfilled during the 3.5 years following Jesus’ ascension (31-34 AD).
In this view the Jews were given priority in hearing the gospel, but Philip’s evangelistic trip to Samaria in 34 AD marked a time when the gospel began in earnest to go to non-Jews.[4]
~ PP9: Daniel’s 70-Week Prophecy (Part 2)

[4]
Philip was only one of many who were scattered throughout Judea and Samaria, preaching the word, as a result of the great persecution which arose the day Stephen was stoned to death (Acts 8:1-5). This viewpoint sees the 490 years as literal and without interruption, after which (unlike in typical Dispensationalist thought) the Israelites would cease to be God’s chosen people. Instead, Jews and Gentiles alike could only be saved on an individual basis, making up the Church in which there is no Jew or Gentile (Galatians 3:28; cf. Acts 10:45, 11:18, 13:46, 14:27, 15:9, 18:6, 22:20-22).
 
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Christian Gedge

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DavidPT said:
and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
I'm not seeing where your timeline takes this part into account.

It's the dotted part between AD34 and AD70. Here is a clearer svg diagram.

View attachment 264670



DavidPT said:
This too has to be fulfilled during the 70th week, and not after the 70th week instead ... such as your timeline is showing.

What you are saying stems from futurism's idea of a last-days abomination in a rebuilt future temple. But you need to reconsider what the "overspreading" abomination actually is. It is the continuance of animal sacrifice after it was supposed to stop!

Some Preterists make the same mistake by assuming a gap followed by a Roman abomination. But the abomination happened when the Jews defied Christ's "It is finished", stitched up the curtain, repaired the earthquake-damaged temple, and recommenced their atoning sacrifices.

So, the answer to your question is quite simple. The fall of Jerusalem and destruction of the temple did not take place within the actual seventy weeks; the prophet was simply providing information of the aftermath to the weeks in order to explain what the eventual outcome would be.
 

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CharismaticLady

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Actually, the danger of antisemitism lies squarely at the feet of consistent futurism.

Here are some verses that show this to be true:

And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the Great City which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified. (Rev. 11:8)

This verse designates Jerusalem as "Sodom and Egypt" because it was in Jerusalem that the Lord Jesus was crucified. If we are to say this verse refers to a time in our future and is not yet fulfilled, then we must also say that Jerusalem remains the spiritual "Sodom and Egypt" to this very day because of its Messianic blood-guilt, and that it must remain so indicted until the Judgment of Rev. 11:13-19 is fulfilled sometime in our future. This conclusion is inescapable if the passage has yet to be fulfilled.

And if Rev. 11:13-19 is yet unfulfilled, this logically implies that Paul's indictment against Jews must also remain intact to this very day, specifically, that "the Jews [who "killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets"] ...are ...hostile to all men" and that "they always fill up the measure of their sins." (I Thess. 2:14-16)

Consistent futurism logically produces a very dangerous ambiguity and ambivalence toward modern-day "Jews" in that, on the one hand, they are in some sense "God's chosen people," while on the other hand they remain a blood-guilty race of enemies (Rom. 11:28) who are opposed to all men, and whose metropolis is "Egypt" and "Sodom" until Revelation 11 is fulfilled. This is the hateful fruit of consistent futurism.

In the preterist doctrine, in contrast, Jerusalem was "given to the nations" by God in the late 60's, A.D., and the Great City was then trampled under foot until it was destroyed in A. D. 70. In those terrible "days of vengeance," the wrath of God against the Jews came to the utmost (I Thess. 2:16; Heb. 10:26-31) and they paid the price for their Messianic blood-guilt to the last penny (Lk. 12:54-59).

After that day, the blood-descendants of Abraham became --covenantally speaking-- simply one of the many ethnic classes in the family of man (Eph. 3:15). There is not one ethnic group (or "race") of men today that is in any sense rejected by God or favored by God over others, but all are freely accepted in Christ and are made One through faith in Him.

How many lives would have been saved if this preterist view of Israel in Bible prophecy had been taught instead of consistent futurism?

Probably millions.

While the Jews are partially blinded, still rejecting Jesus as Messiah, of course their city will be called Sodom, but by that future time their eyes have been opened. But even while their eyes were partially blinded, God still brought them together as a nation and returned Jerusalem to them in the 6 day war, supernaturally won. I am anything but anti-Semitic. I love Jews and support Israel. It is replacement theologists, which I'm NOT, that are truly anti-Semitic. Besides, I'd be curious what the ratio is in Jerusalem of Jews to Muslims with their mosk.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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CharismaticLady said:
I listened to a video on Preterism and it was very convincing, but when you read prophecy, Preterism leaves too many unanswered points. I can understand how some could be partial Preterists, but not full Presterism. But the danger seems to be anti-Semitism.
parousia70 said:
Actually, the danger of antisemitism lies squarely at the feet of consistent futurism.

Here are some verses that show this to be true:

And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the Great City which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified. (Rev. 11:8)

This verse designates Jerusalem as "Sodom and Egypt" because it was in Jerusalem that the Lord Jesus was crucified. If we are to say this verse refers to a time in our future and is not yet fulfilled, then we must also say that Jerusalem remains the spiritual "Sodom and Egypt" to this very day because of its Messianic blood-guilt, and that it must remain so indicted until the Judgment of Rev. 11:13-19 is fulfilled sometime in our future. This conclusion is inescapable if the passage has yet to be fulfilled.

And if Rev. 11:13-19 is yet unfulfilled, this logically implies that Paul's indictment against Jews must also remain intact to this very day, specifically, that "the Jews [who "killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets"] ...are ...hostile to all men" and that "they always fill up the measure of their sins." (I Thess. 2:14-16)

Consistent futurism logically produces a very dangerous ambiguity and ambivalence toward modern-day "Jews" in that, on the one hand, they are in some sense "God's chosen people," while on the other hand they remain a blood-guilty race of enemies (Rom. 11:28) who are opposed to all men, and whose metropolis is "Egypt" and "Sodom" until Revelation 11 is fulfilled. This is the hateful fruit of consistent futurism.

In the preterist doctrine, in contrast, Jerusalem was "given to the nations" by God in the late 60's, A.D., and the Great City was then trampled under foot until it was destroyed in A. D. 70. In those terrible "days of vengeance," the wrath of God against the Jews came to the utmost (I Thess. 2:16; Heb. 10:26-31) and they paid the price for their Messianic blood-guilt to the last penny (Lk. 12:54-59).

After that day, the blood-descendants of Abraham became --covenantally speaking-- simply one of the many ethnic classes in the family of man (Eph. 3:15). There is not one ethnic group (or "race") of men today that is in any sense rejected by God or favored by God over others, but all are freely accepted in Christ and are made One through faith in Him.

How many lives would have been saved if this preterist view of Israel in Bible prophecy had been taught instead of consistent futurism?

Probably millions.
While the Jews are partially blinded, still rejecting Jesus as Messiah, of course their city will be called Sodom, but by that future time their eyes have been opened. But even while their eyes were partially blinded, God still brought them together as a nation and returned Jerusalem to them in the 6 day war, supernaturally won. I am anything but anti-Semitic. I love Jews and support Israel. It is replacement theologists, which I'm NOT, that are truly anti-Semitic. Besides, I'd be curious what the ratio is in Jerusalem of Jews to Muslims with their mosk.
Can't we all just get along.........
===============================
The Old City of Jerusalem covers less than one square kilometer and is home to Jews, Christians and Muslims. The political tensions dividing Israel and the Palestinians are felt acutely here. How do the Old City's residents deal with this stress? We put that question to three families and to three clerics representing the three 'world religions'.


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Im nO
2 years ago
Politics divide people not the religion. I am a Muslim and have no problem with others whatever they believe. because that is not my job. but the politicians create tensions, hatred, discrimination and wars. in the name of religion but for their own self benefits.

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Element gentleman productions Otero
2 years ago
iam a christian and i love everyboady

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Muslim For life
2 years ago
I'm a Muslim and I swear by Allah I love my jews and Christians brothers and sisters. I love all humans.
 
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mkgal1

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I love Jews and support Israel.
I love my Jewish friends and neighbors as well - but "Israel" = the People of God - it's not a place or a location. There's a distinction that needs to be made there. The owner of the vineyard has already come - and He now entrusts others be His ambassadors of His message.

Luke 20:15-21
15 So they cast him out of the vineyard and killed him. Therefore what will the owner of the vineyard do to them? 16 He will come and destroy those vinedressers and give the vineyard to others.”17 Then He looked at them and said, “What then is this that is written:
‘The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone’?

18 Whoever falls on that stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder.”
19 And the chief priests and the scribes that very hour sought to lay hands on Him, but they feared the people —for they knew He had spoken this parable against them.

Matt 21:38-45
38 But when the vinedressers saw the son, they said among themselves, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.’ 39 So they took him and cast him out of the vineyard and killed him.
40 “Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?”
41 They said to Him, “He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons.”
42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:
‘The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone.
This was the Lord’s doing,
And it is marvelous in our eyes’?

43 “Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it. 44 And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder.”
45 Now
when the chief priests and Pharisees heard His parables, they knew that He was speaking of them.

Jesus is the Stone that CAME and Crushed those wicked men in the 1st century...of His generation (not any modern Jews of today)..... to powder, exactly as He told them He would.
 
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