Went to 2 churches today

This whole argument about who's closest to the first century church is pretty ridiculous if it is assumed that there is any particular Church that has kept its liturgical form unchanged since the first century Jewish Church, since this is definitely untrue with regard to the Liturgy of St. James, and that's the earliest extant liturgy that we have.

Recall from the wiki link on the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom: "This liturgy was probably used originally by the School of Antioch (John having been a deacon and priest in Antioch) and, therefore, most likely developed from West Syriac liturgical rites". Well, here are some West Syriac (Syriac Orthodox) Christians, worshiping in their language (plus a little bit of Arabic, since it is in Jerusalem) and according to their ancient liturgy:


It is obviously not identical to whatever the first century Jewish Church was doing (nor to the Eastern Orthodox Church, for that matter, though I'm willing to bet that the liturgies of the two groups have more commonalities than differences, since they're both 'Antiochian-type' liturgies), but it is just as obviously closer to that than to anything Protestant.

dzheremi said:

This whole argument about who's closest to the first century church is pretty ridiculous if it is assumed that there is any particular Church that has kept its liturgical form unchanged since the first century Jewish Church, since this is definitely untrue with regard to the Liturgy of St. James, and that's the earliest extant liturgy that we have.

Recall from the wiki link on the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom: "This liturgy was probably used originally by the School of Antioch (John having been a deacon and priest in Antioch) and, therefore, most likely developed from West Syriac liturgical rites". Well, here are some West Syriac (Syriac Orthodox) Christians, worshiping in their language (plus a little bit of Arabic, since it is in Jerusalem) and according to their ancient liturgy:

It is obviously not identical to whatever the first century Jewish Church was doing (nor to the Eastern Orthodox Church, for that matter, though I'm willing to bet that the liturgies of the two groups have more commonalities than differences, since they're both 'Antiochian-type' liturgies), but it is just as obviously closer to that than to anything Protestant.

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Albion said:

Only the structure was the same? Well, no. Not even that. What you are referring to are not even the early Christian ecclesia but the established Jewish synagogues. For a little while, the followers of Christ continued to attend those JEWISH worship services, but then created their own assemblies -- which is what we were talking about on this thread.

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As also evidenced by the complete lack of anything resembling Protestantism existing historically in ANY recorded region at that time. No matter how many other "heretical" churches you look at that came from the first century church such as the gnostics, judaizers, docetists, apollonarianists, antinomianists
or any other of the hundreds of sects, all of them are liturgical, and connected heavily to Eucharistic mindsets. Either that, or they were so riddled with other strange heresy that we shouldn't even care how they worshiped.

I think that everyone has to find a place where they are comfortable..

I had never been to Catholic Church until I met my wife. Her Dad was solid Catholic.. I mean his mom spent more time at the Priests house than her own home and was known in our town to be a "saint" for all the servant hood that she did at this residence.

So, her Dad married a protestant. Her mom had to convert to Catholicism to be married. Very common.


However, at his funeral, the priest that knew him in most of his elder years was out of town. The priest that stood in knew that my mother in law was not originally protestant..

The rudeness and abuse that she took during that service has driven the rest of the family from that perish and the catholic church.
She has bad asthma and is on regular medication to keep her from getting pneumonia. She told the priest to be cautious with her when he swings around the incense...To our surprise, he had it smoking real good and made sure he went by her very close.
He made no reference to her in the entire service.
When he gave the communion.. there was no invite or explanation for non Catholics. Usually they can come up and cross their arms and receive a blessing...
My son, who was unaware of all this, went up to receive the bread and the wine.. but the priest could tell that he was not catholic as he didn't know the ritual... the death stare that he gave my son was appalling.


I know this is not typical and the review that my mother in law gave this priest was instrumental in getting him.. ya.... sent to another city...

Other than this incident.. I believe that if you like the catholic church and you love your savior.. more power to you.

I'm not saying that no Catholics are saved, like I have heard.. But I don't like it when someone states that only Catholics are saved either.

JacksBratt said:

The rudeness and abuse that she took during that service has driven the rest of the family from that perish and the catholic church.

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I am curious to know who was rude? Generally a Catholic funeral is a mass and that means that the priest says what is in the liturgy. He may give a short homily about the readings. If asked he may speak about the deceased person but that is usually left to family members to do. So who was rude? How was he/she/they rude?

PS: I read about the "death stare" and about the incense smoke and about the asthma but those things are far from objective rudeness. Why was it a "death stare"? How is incense smoke an affront? The only thing that gets incense smoke is the coffin so if you need to avoid the smoke sit far enough away that it will not reach you.

GingerBeer said:

I am curious to know who was rude? Generally a Catholic funeral is a mass and that means that the priest says what is in the liturgy. He may give a short homily about the readings. If asked he may speak about the deceased person but that is usually left to family members to do. So who was rude? How was he/she/they rude?

PS: I read about the "death stare" and about the incense smoke and about the asthma but those things are far from objective rudeness. Why was it a "death stare"? How is incense smoke an affront? The only thing that gets incense smoke is the coffin so if you need to avoid the smoke sit far enough away that it will not reach you.

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I have been to several funerals at this church. The priest usually walked up and down the isles swinging the incense canister. It was very obvious that my mother in law was disrespected as she was in a cloud of smoke.
The priest was rude. Even after the service, when she was asking some questions, when she was unsure where to go, he spoke harsh and even barged past her, interrupting her as she was still asking him something, to go to do some other insignificant thing.

I know that this is not the typical behavior... This was blatant disrespect for someone that he was aware was not "born" catholic.
If you were a visitor.. you would have never known that the deceased even had a wife or children..

JacksBratt said:

The priest was rude.

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You also wrote "driven the rest of the family from that perish and the catholic church." so a priest that you see as rude was enough for the family to abandon Catholicism?

GingerBeer said:

You also wrote "driven the rest of the family from that perish and the catholic church." so a priest that you see as rude was enough for the family to abandon Catholicism?

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I'm not Catholic, my wife was but attends church with me as a protestant and nobody cares.

The others, in my wife's family don't go to that church anymore. My mother in law attends a Pentecostal church now and loves it.

Gracia Singh said:

I understand that Protestant worship services are generally lively and emotional

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Yes and there is no sense of the sacred, just emotionalism. No thanks I prefer sacred space not just noise. In Mass tomorrow my Priest is going to talk on sacred space.

Gracia Singh said:

. It's a journey we make with the Eucharist, with and because of Christ, through slow times, and active times.

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The Eucharist is the highest thing a Christian can partake of. No Eucharist no Church

JacksBratt said:

I'm not Catholic, my wife was but attends church with me as a protestant and nobody cares.

The others, in my wife's family don't go to that church anymore. My mother in law attends a Pentecostal church now and loves it.

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Okay, so the allegedly rude priests didn't drive anyone away from Catholicism that you know of?

GingerBeer said:

Okay, so the allegedly rude priests didn't drive anyone away from Catholicism that you know of?

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Oh, IC, you just wanted to know if this action drove people from the RCC. I cannot say for sure.

Just my mother in law who just went back to a protestant church.

My sisters in law who were driven from the RCC years ago, for their own reasons of what they call hypocrisies...who now don't go to any church. (this is where any church of any faith can drive people from any church, for good, and it's serious).

I have been going to church since I was a baby. So, I am well aware of the fact that their are good and bad clergy for any denomination.

I was going to post some more, but, someone else has opened my eyes to this idea that the RCC don't think that anyone outside their church is "worthy" or saved...So, I'll stop there.

JacksBratt said:

someone else has opened my eyes to this idea that the RCC don't think that anyone outside their church is "worthy" or saved

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Looks like "someone else" might be wrong.

friend of said:

...
I want to encourage every Catholic on here to please try going to a protestant church at least once. Just to see how different it is. I think you're going to find it much more liberating.

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Unfortunately, there is also protestant churches with similar dead hypocrite rituals. It would be really good, if people could find group of disciples of Jesus (Christians) that are loyal to Jesus and his words.

Jesus therefore said to those Jews who had believed him, "If you remain in my word, then you are truly my disciples. You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
John 8:31-32

friend of said:

First was Catholic. I used to be one. But man, it was not a great time. Their idea of mass is all wrong. Its ritual repetitiveness is not my idea of a breathing Church at all. The pastor got up and said a few things and then everyone is forced to give the exact same responses throughout the procession. The hymns are still nice, but the atmosphere is depressing to say the least. It was like being in the assembly of the dead, that was the feeling.

Then I went to my protestant church with the guitars and joyful hymns. With the off-the-cuff pastors preaching the word into my life. This was much more comforting and indeed relevant to my christian walk than the hyper ritualized mass of RCC. Where we talked about community projects openly and took the sacraments in unison.

I want to encourage every Catholic on here to please try going to a protestant church at least once. Just to see how different it is. I think you're going to find it much more liberating.

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I don't want to generalize any church, because I don't like being generalized either. I do not think it does justice for the Catholic to attend one Protestant church and say they know. Every denomination is different in the way they worship, and every church within a denomination may do things a little different from each other. I have been to so many Baptist Churches that do things different every time, and Reformed churches the same. In my church, we do not play instruments and we sing only to hymns and psalms. We have only men of each household pray during the prayer service. We do not have a tithe time, we have an area in the church for you to offer gifts when service isn't going on. Our elders expositionally preach, we do not follow the topical kind of preaching. We have the Lord's Table every week and we only use non-alcoholic wine and homemade unleavened bread.

I've read this thread and participated in it, and I find it fascinating. I've attended Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Catholic (liberal and conservative) and various Protestant churches, including liturgical (Episcopalian) Evangelical, Pentecostal and Word of Faith.

I think for most people, one tradition within Christian Church practice will make them feel at home. I hope to end up there one day, but for now, I find multiple desires that span across churches. I love the formality, reverence, history, and solemnity, as well as the solace that I get from Catholic Mass. I also love the Protestant hymns, worship, praise, and emphasis on teaching the Word of God, not just reading a portion of it like in Mass. Of course, Catholics are free to study the Sunday passage throughout the week in groups or personally. But the Protestants are missing the Eucharist, and frankly, I felt convicted after speaking of the Eucharist in this thread as a "piece of bread". I went to Mass this morning, and then heard a good sermon from a Coptic Orthodox priest at another church afterwards.

Maybe one day I'll find "it all" in one church, maybe not. Currently I don't see a church that would combine my favorite elements of the Mass with Protestant faith. Even if a church like that were to emerge, it would be either 1) labeled as heresy or 2) would be a watered down version of both elements, as is the case in "Messianic Judaism". In their attempts to mix Judaism and Christian faith they somewhat blur the line in my opinion and make them both confusing, although by most standards they are definitely a Protestant church.

I think I will become Catholic because the Mass is my preferred style of worship. But I won't give up my Protestant hymns ("Precious Lord, Take my Hand") and in depth Bible teaching. Otherwise, with only Mass, even daily Mass, I fear I'd become dry without in depth study and discipleship based on the Word of God.

Jonaitis said:

In my church, we do not play instruments and we sing only to hymns and psalms. We have only men of each household pray during the prayer service. We do not have a tithe time, we have an area in the church for you to offer gifts when service isn't going on. Our elders expositionally preach, we do not follow the topical kind of preaching. We have the Lord's Table every week and we only use non-alcoholic wine and homemade unleavened bread.

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Sounds like one of the Restorationist/non-denominational churches rather than a Reformed church.

We have the Lord's Table every week...I think I will become Catholic because the Mass is my preferred style of worship. But I won't give up my Protestant hymns ("Precious Lord, Take my Hand") and in depth Bible teaching. Otherwise, with only Mass, even daily Mass, I fear I'd become dry without in depth study and discipleship based on the Word of God.

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Ever thought of an Episcopal or Anglican church?

Albion said:

Sounds like one of the Restorationist/non-denominational churches rather than a Reformed church.

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You haven't been around the block often.

jisaiah6113 said:

I've read this thread and participated in it, and I find it fascinating. I've attended Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Catholic (liberal and conservative) and various Protestant churches, including liturgical (Episcopalian) Evangelical, Pentecostal and Word of Faith.

I think for most people, one tradition within Christian Church practice will make them feel at home. I hope to end up there one day, but for now, I find multiple desires that span across churches. I love the formality, reverence, history, and solemnity, as well as the solace that I get from Catholic Mass. I also love the Protestant hymns, worship, praise, and emphasis on teaching the Word of God, not just reading a portion of it like in Mass. Of course, Catholics are free to study the Sunday passage throughout the week in groups or personally. But the Protestants are missing the Eucharist, and frankly, I felt convicted after speaking of the Eucharist in this thread as a "piece of bread". I went to Mass this morning, and then heard a good sermon from a Coptic Orthodox priest at another church afterwards.

Maybe one day I'll find "it all" in one church, maybe not. Currently I don't see a church that would combine my favorite elements of the Mass with Protestant faith. Even if a church like that were to emerge, it would be either 1) labeled as heresy or 2) would be a watered down version of both elements, as is the case in "Messianic Judaism". In their attempts to mix Judaism and Christian faith they somewhat blur the line in my opinion and make them both confusing, although by most standards they are definitely a Protestant church.

I think I will become Catholic because the Mass is my preferred style of worship. But I won't give up my Protestant hymns ("Precious Lord, Take my Hand") and in depth Bible teaching. Otherwise, with only Mass, even daily Mass, I fear I'd become dry without in depth study and discipleship based on the Word of God.

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While I agree that Catholic homilies are generally too short and not in depth enough, they are not trying to be 'Bible Study As Worship' like some sorts of Protestants do. Different goal. But what does help is looking at the daily readings AND doing the Liturgy of the Hours. That can be done communally or solitary, and it does help. Still I agree that Catholics have a need for communal Bible study going very in depth on meaning. I always appreciate it when a priest does that. We do get probably more Scripture than most places, but not as well explained.

chevyontheriver said:

While I agree that Catholic homilies are generally too short and not in depth enough, they are not trying to be 'Bible Study As Worship' like some sorts of Protestants do. Different goal. But what does help is looking at the daily readings AND doing the Liturgy of the Hours. That can be done communally or solitary, and it does help. Still I agree that Catholics have a need for communal Bible study going very in depth on meaning. I always appreciate it when a priest does that. We do get probably more Scripture than most places, but not as well explained.

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Albion, I've been to two Episcopal Churches. One on the west coast where I'm from, which was very intimate. The other a large cathedral in DC. I understand how it's a way to be Catholic in style without being Catholic, but it didn't make sense to go that far without simply joining Catholicism. It felt like "Catholic lite" and plus in my experience Episcopalian churches are too liberal politically for my taste.

To your point Chevy I think Catholicism would greatly benefit from more in depth study of the scriptures. I know Catholics are not "people of the book" but we can't ignore that Peter wrote through the exceedingly great and precious promises we have been given everything pertaining to life and godliness. A lot of this is scripture. I appreciate the fact that scripture is read from both testaments every Mass and that the Eucharist is center for Catholics. I just feel that the Church intentionally sometimes tries to subjugate the scriptures to the tradition but that's why for now I supplement.

But yes, most parishes have resources that go beyond Mass into scripture book studies, adoration, and I want to do liturgy of the hours and spend more time praying in the presence of the Blessed Sacrament.

jisaiah6113 said:

To your point Chevy I think Catholicism would greatly benefit from more in depth study of the scriptures. I know Catholics are not "people of the book" but we can't ignore that Peter wrote through the exceedingly great and precious promises we have been given everything pertaining to life and godliness. A lot of this is scripture. I appreciate the fact that scripture is read from both testaments every Mass and that the Eucharist is center for Catholics. I just feel that the Church intentionally sometimes tries to subjugate the scriptures to the tradition but that's why for now I supplement.

But yes, most parishes have resources that go beyond Mass into scripture book studies, adoration, and I want to do liturgy of the hours and spend more time praying in the presence of the Blessed Sacrament.

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Adoration each week is perhaps the best hour of my entire week.

Today we had the story of Naaman, which is actually profound, but we got the truncated version from the lectionary. Our priest did pretty well, but this one did it up right: From Naaman to Newman

I still think the weekness is lots of Scripture but not enough explanation, just kind of leaving it hanging. The goal seems to be a 10 minute or less homily. Too short. Too much gets sacrificed. Not enough Tradition, not enough Patristic background, not enough context. They seem to think we are just born with all of that.