The first Pope was a married Priest

rockytopva · Oct 8, 2019

I do like to visit churches when I visit the Polynesia. For one thing they keep the churches full of flowers and open. Pictured below is the Catholic church at Bora-Bora and Tahiti. All of which has the images of Christ done up reverently along with crowns of flowers. The church at Bora Bora has its large mountain in the background. Notably missing from these churches was any kind of clergy.

rockytopva · Oct 8, 2019

During the Moody Sankey revivals into Catholic Ireland a Mr Magee wrote an article saying, "FAIR PLAY I" 271 - "Our Human Catholic brcthren, us a rule, have acted a noble part. They have been respectful, and to a certain extent, sympathizing. In this week's number of the Nationan organ at once of National (as it is called) and Ultramontane principlesau article has appeared, entitled, 'Fair Play!' which is exceedingly creditable, and which indicates the advent of a new day in Ireland. The editor informs his constituents that the deadly danger of the age comes upon us from the direction of Huxley and Darwin and Tyndall, rather than from Moody and Sankey. Irish Catholics desire to see Protestants deeply imbued with religious feeling, rather than tinged with rationalism and infidelity; and as long as the religious services of our Protestant neighbors are honestly directed to quickening religious thought in their own body, without offering aggressive or intentional insult to us, it is our duty to pay the homage.”

It was nice, of this time, that the Protestants and Catholics could endure one another and see the real enemies from different avenues. I believe calling each other neighbors a righteous call. And this thread was not intended to be aggressive or an intentional insult to my Catholic neighbors.

I do look over my shoulder into the affairs of my Catholic neighbors and wish them well. I have enjoyed EWTN, the events of concave, think Pope Francis a good guy, will occasionally visit the church, take interest in affairs such as celibacy, read up on the news, and would attend more services if the communion were not closed.

As I believe the Catholic Church has issues... Well... So does mine! I do not promote one church over the other. And another thing, I believe all generations as unique. There is a big difference in generations from WW1, WW2, Vietnam, and the generations to follow. The Spirit of my denomination, Pentecostal Holiness, disappeared along with passing of the WW2 generation and I doubt I will ever see again.

I believe, though, in this time, we must look over each other’s shoulders. I would be careful of in trusting any celibate man alone with people. I have no intentions of hurting anyone. But, if I were to re-enter youth ministry, I would have to do it in responsible company, so I would not be accused of hurting anyone. When I was in youth ministry I would have kids over to the house on weekends to grill out, watch TV, play games, have campfire devotions. We had a large fellowship that did well. The youth director and her husband moved on. Without the responsible help I had to give this up as well.

Cis.jd · Oct 8, 2019

rockytopva said:
If Peter was the first pope he was a married one....

And when Jesus was come into Peter's house, he saw his wife's mother laid, and sick of a fever. And he touched her hand, and the fever left her: and she arose, and ministered unto them. - Matthew 8:14-15

And forthwith, when they were come out of the synagogue, they entered into the house of Simon and Andrew, with James and John. But Simon's wife's mother lay sick of a fever, and anon they tell him of her. And he came and took her by the hand, and lifted her up; and immediately the fever left her, and she ministered unto them. - Mark 1:29-31

And he arose out of the synagogue, and entered into Simon's house. And Simon's wife's mother was taken with a great fever; and they besought him for her. And he stood over her, and rebuked the fever; and it left her: and immediately she arose and ministered unto them.
- Luke 4:38-39

I believe it would be good for the Catholic Church to allow married priests. Here are some recent articles talking about it...

Pope Francis meeting raises conservatives' fears of married priests - CNN
Pope Opens Debate on Celibacy Requirement for Catholic Priests

Here in Blacksburg we have a married Catholic Deacon by the name of Dr. Mike Ellerbrock who goes by the title of Deacon and Reverend...

St. Mary's Staff
Teaching and preaching: The vocations of Deacon Michael Ellerbrock | The Catholic Virginian

I do not know why the married Dr. Mike Ellerbrock goes by the title of Deacon and Reverend. But I believe this man would do the Catholic Church good if they let this married man rise up through the ranks. I believe there are many married Catholics who would do their church good as married Priests. And to allow celibate priests only to those able to live such a life....

His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry. But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given. For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it. - Matthew 19:10-12

I am a single man who was once in the youth ministry. While I was in this ministry it did well. When I lost my help I had to get out of this ministry as well as I dared not put myself in the position of being alone with children. If I were to serve in any kind of ministry I would want do it married or with a group.

First. I am some what supportive of Priests being allowed to marry mainly because I think it may help the issue in regards to the pedophile scandals. I think that biologically these priests are experiencing mental breakdowns due to the hormones that are designed in human beings. It's a disputable argument though.

In regards to this post. Yes, Peter and early priests to popes did have wives. There is a historical reason why the church started celibacy and they just did use verses to help justify the reason biblically. The Church has always respected biblical references as main guidelines in their decision making towards establishing traditions such as Celibacy.

Historically, one of the main reasons why is to help prevent family inheritance. A Father Priest passing down to the son and stuff like that. Other reasons why is because in history there have been priests who have had many women of their own (or so I read in some books). Factors like these caused the church to establish Celibacy.

rockytopva · Oct 8, 2019

Cis.jd said:
First. I am some what supportive of Priests being allowed to marry mainly because I think it may help the issue in regards to the pedophile scandals. I think that biologically these priests are experiencing mental breakdowns due to the hormones that are designed in human beings. It's a disputable argument though.

In regards to this post. Yes, Peter and early priests to popes did have wives. There is a historical reason why the church started celibacy and they just did use verses to help justify the reason biblically. The Church has always respected biblical references as main guidelines in their decision making towards establishing traditions such as Celibacy.

Historically, one of the main reasons why is to help prevent family inheritance. A Father Priest passing down to the son and stuff like that. Other reasons why is because in history there have been priests who have had many women of their own (or so I read in some books). Factors like these caused the church to establish Celibacy.

To me there is an issue of maintaining purity. Which, a good wife is sometimes great assistance. But, as Solomon asks in the proverbs... Who can find a virtuous woman? Purity, I believe, is easily challenged in this day.

Daniel9v9 · Oct 9, 2019

That priests have a freedom in Christ to marry is explicitly clear from Scriptures. For example: 1 Timothy 3:1-7

It's a bit of a long read, but if anyone is interested in knowing the historical and theological arguments for and against the marriage of priests, you can read about the controversy here (in order):

Lutherans (or the historical evangelical bodies, or reformers) criticise the abuses in the Church and lays out what they believe, teach and confess - Augustana (or the Augsburg Confession). Among these articles, the Roman doctrine regarding the celibacy of priests is criticised: Augsburg Confession - Book of Concord

The Roman Catholic response - Confutatio Augustana: 1530 Roman Confutation

Lutheran defence - Apology of the Augsburg Confession: Defense of the Augsburg Confession - Book of Concord

There may be other further responses by individual priests and bishops, but I think the next major RCC response to the Augsburg Confession (that in many ways sparked the reformation proper) would be the Council of Trent. (And if you like to keep going, you can find a very expansive response by Martin Chemnitz that deals Trent specifically, or read other general confessional writings from the reformation. On the Lutheran side they are neatly compiled into one volume called the Concordia. On the Reformed side, there's the Heidelberg Catechism, Helvetic Confession and a variety of others)

Root of Jesse · Oct 9, 2019

Albion said:
That's right. The RCC's policy against married priests is purely an administrative one. If it were junked tomorrow, there would be no doctrinal (or Scriptural, as you noted) issue at all. Besides, it is a rule affecting only certain priests; there are a number of married priests in the Catholic church.

A priest may not marry, but a married man may become a priest. The latter was Peter's case, so the case for celebate clergy is still valid. It is not a doctrine, it is discipline.

Root of Jesse · Oct 9, 2019

Daniel9v9 said:
That priests have a freedom in Christ to marry is explicitly clear from Scriptures. For example: 1 Timothy 3:1-7

It's a bit of a long read, but if anyone is interested in knowing the historical and theological arguments for and against the marriage of priests, you can read about the controversy here (in order):

Lutherans (or the historical evangelical bodies, or reformers) criticise the abuses in the Church and lays out what they believe, teach and confess - Augustana (or the Augsburg Confession). Among these articles, the Roman doctrine regarding the celibacy of priests is criticised: Augsburg Confession - Book of Concord

The Roman Catholic response - Confutatio Augustana: 1530 Roman Confutation

Lutheran defence - Apology of the Augsburg Confession: Defense of the Augsburg Confession - Book of Concord

There may be other further responses by individual priests and bishops, but I think the next major RCC response to the Augsburg Confession (that in many ways sparked the reformation proper) would be the Council of Trent. (And if you like to keep going, you can find a very expansive response by Martin Chemnitz that deals Trent specifically, or read other general confessional writings from the reformation. On the Lutheran side they are neatly compiled into one volume called the Concordia. On the Reformed side, there's the Heidelberg Catechism, Helvetic Confession and a variety of others)

Simple question: Does anyone have a right to be ordained? In secular terms, if the requirements to hold a job require that you do X, Y and Z...for example, to be a firefighter, say the requirements are that you have to be able to carry 300 lbs down a ladder, to know how to diagnose where the fire started, and to know how to drive a 30' long truck, if you don't meet the requirements, can you still be a firefighter?
So the Catholic Church wants men who can be devoted to their flock 24/7, and a married pastor often would not be available 24/7, because of family requirements, why is it so bad that they require priests to be celibate and unmarried? In the fashion world, maybe the requirement is to be lanky and 6' tall. If you don't meet the requirements of the job, you can't be a model. Same principal.

Albion · Oct 9, 2019

Root of Jesse said:
A priest may not marry, but a married man may become a priest. The latter was Peter's case, so the case for celebate clergy is still valid. It is not a doctrine, it is discipline.

In the Latin rite, a married man may not then become a priest, although converts who are married may be received as priests.

This unmarried priests rule was newly established during the Middle Ages. As we both have now said, this is not a doctrine but just a policy that could be discontinued whenever the Vatican decides. For a thousand years of church history, there were married priests, just as in the EOC.

rockytopva · Oct 9, 2019

Root of Jesse said:
Simple question: Does anyone have a right to be ordained? In secular terms, if the requirements to hold a job require that you do X, Y and Z...for example, to be a firefighter, say the requirements are that you have to be able to carry 300 lbs down a ladder, to know how to diagnose where the fire started, and to know how to drive a 30' long truck, if you don't meet the requirements, can you still be a firefighter?
So the Catholic Church wants men who can be devoted to their flock 24/7, and a married pastor often would not be available 24/7, because of family requirements, why is it so bad that they require priests to be celibate and unmarried? In the fashion world, maybe the requirement is to be lanky and 6' tall. If you don't meet the requirements of the job, you can't be a model. Same principal.

I believe there is possibility for Catholic celibate men to be good priests. But that is not the case every time. If a man is not walking with Christ and if a man is not walking in the Spirit, that man has potential to do a good church much harm.

rockytopva · Oct 9, 2019

I am not trying to make marriage a cure-all. But, I believe there are married couples out there who would do the Catholic Church well in pastoral ministry.

Albion · Oct 9, 2019

rockytopva said:
I am not trying to make marriage a cure-all. But, I believe there are married couples out there who would do the Catholic Church well in pastoral ministry.

If the Roman Catholic Church continues to decline (like most other churches) it probably will come to that...and it would not present any doctrinal problems. We have already discussed that issue.

But in the meantime, the RCC is pressing members of religious orders into parish work, allowing lay persons to do some of what priests and deacons did previously, and allowing married men to be deacons in charge of parishes. But if the scarcity of pastors gets much worse, some Pope will probably relax the prohibition on married priests even further.

Root of Jesse · Oct 9, 2019

Albion said:
In the Latin rite, a married man may not then become a priest, although converts who are married may be received as priests.

Not always so. But the most common exception is the Anglican convert who was a priest in the Anglican Church.

This unmarried priests rule was newly established during the Middle Ages. As we both have now said, this is not a doctrine but just a policy that could be discontinued whenever the Vatican decides. For a thousand years of church history, there were married priests, just as in the EOC.

But a priest could never marry. And married men could become priests.

Root of Jesse · Oct 9, 2019

Albion said:
If the Roman Catholic Church continues to decline (like most other churches) it probably will come to that...and it would not present any doctrinal problems. We have already discussed that issue.

But in the meantime, the RCC is pressing members of religious orders into parish work, allowing lay persons to do some of what priests and deacons did previously, and allowing married men to be deacons in charge of parishes. But if the scarcity of pastors gets much worse, some Pope will probably relax the prohibition on married priests even further.

More to your second paragraph...Deacons of the Catholic Church normally have their own day jobs, so to do that and be in charge of a parish is quite abnormal. What the Church has done, and has always been done is that, where there are places rich with priests, some are sent to the West. My favorite priest is a student from Nigeria. He's ordained, goes to a Jesuit university to study 6 days a week, and may stay in the US after his doctoral work. We also get lots of Filipino priests

Root of Jesse · Oct 9, 2019

rockytopva said:
I am not trying to make marriage a cure-all. But, I believe there are married couples out there who would do the Catholic Church well in pastoral ministry.

Pastoral ministry is not the same as being a pastor. My diocese has a school of pastoral ministry, and produces many fine catechists and deacons. Being a pastor is a different thing. So when I went to the school of pastoral ministry, I studied for three years to do pastoral ministry. I conduct Bible studies, teach confirmation classes, and am a regular lector or extraordinary minister of Holy Communion. My wife, before she became terminally ill, assisted me. I could also do bereavement ministry or prison ministry.

Above, you said that you had never met a good priest. I believe you haven't met many priests. But just because someone is a priest doesn't make them automatically good. The current scandal in the Church proves just that. But there are many, many more good priests than bad ones. There are no more bad priests in the Church than there are bad doctors in that profession. But every profession has people that are better than some others in the same field.

rockytopva · Oct 9, 2019

Root of Jesse said:
Pastoral ministry is not the same as being a pastor. My diocese has a school of pastoral ministry, and produces many fine catechists and deacons. Being a pastor is a different thing. So when I went to the school of pastoral ministry, I studied for three years to do pastoral ministry. I conduct Bible studies, teach confirmation classes, and am a regular lector or extraordinary minister of Holy Communion. My wife, before she became terminally ill, assisted me. I could also do bereavement ministry or prison ministry.

Above, you said that you had never met a good priest. I believe you haven't met many priests. But just because someone is a priest doesn't make them automatically good. The current scandal in the Church proves just that. But there are many, many more good priests than bad ones. There are no more bad priests in the Church than there are bad doctors in that profession. But every profession has people that are better than some others in the same field.

I must say your vision for a Catholic priest is good... If you could find those men! My dad went to Catholic seminary but dropped out along with many others. He would get college degrees at the top of his class. His friend in seminary would go on to create Domino's Pizza. When asking why? The answer was the toughness of seminary requirements and the requirement to know so many languages. The seminaries he attended have long ago been vacated. One of them is now a Word of Faith church. Though your vision for Catholic priest is good, it is going to be hard put to find those men!

rockytopva · Oct 9, 2019

My dad went to this seminary, Duns Scotus College - Wikipedia! Which is now a Word of Faith church run by Keith Butler (Keith Butler (Michigan politician) - Wikipedia) with over 22,000 in congregation. My dad has visited this place and is amazed with what they have done with it.

Daniel9v9 · Oct 10, 2019

Root of Jesse said:
Simple question: Does anyone have a right to be ordained? In secular terms, if the requirements to hold a job require that you do X, Y and Z...for example, to be a firefighter, say the requirements are that you have to be able to carry 300 lbs down a ladder, to know how to diagnose where the fire started, and to know how to drive a 30' long truck, if you don't meet the requirements, can you still be a firefighter?
So the Catholic Church wants men who can be devoted to their flock 24/7, and a married pastor often would not be available 24/7, because of family requirements, why is it so bad that they require priests to be celibate and unmarried? In the fashion world, maybe the requirement is to be lanky and 6' tall. If you don't meet the requirements of the job, you can't be a model. Same principal.

Well, first of all, that’s not the main historical and theological Roman Catholic argument. The root of the issue goes much deeper than that. The Roman church makes many claims, including that the Pope, by new divine revelation, decreed a new article of faith (which according to the Roman system, he has a right to do when speaking ex cathedra), that priests cannot marry. However, this decree is contrary to earlier Councils, who did not deny marriage of priests for the same reason Scripture does not.

Second, celibacy is a gift from God that is only granted some, and nowhere in Scripture does this imply or denote all in ministry, as if celibacy must be a universal law, for God's Word says quite the contrary.

The issue is not whether a priest can be celibate and how celibacy is beneficial, but that he’s required to swear before man and God that he will, on account of new revelation and poor and unhistorical application of the OT laws. In short, celibacy is not a divinely instituted law, and Scripture even condemns such teaching as heresy in 1 Timothy 4. It’s also ironic that on one hand, the Roman church celebrates holy matrimony as a sacrament, but yet (at least historically) have a low view of marriage and a high view of celibacy when it speaks of piety.

But to answer your question - It's true that not all are fit for ministry, but only those who have been called and in the manner prescribed by Scripture, that Paul lays out very clearly in his epistles. Paul, nor Peter, nor the Jerusalem Council wished to deny priests God’s gift of marriage, for they understood that holy marriage is good, just as celibacy is good; but to force one or the other is not good.

rockytopva · Oct 10, 2019

Throwing in the whole family along with the qualifications....
1 This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. - 1 Timothy 3

GingerBeer · Oct 10, 2019

I may be wrong but there is a note of wisdom and expedience in maintaining a celibate priesthood. In the middle ages and in some countries today religious leadership is sometimes inherited. Some religious groups and some congregations have a founding Pastor who hands on the role of Pastor to his son (or daughter) and so on down the generations. In Catholic lands during the middle ages inheriting the see of bishops or the vicarage of well paid parishes became a cause for corruption. I imagine it is still a cause for corruption in churches that allow the practise so Catholic priesthood - being celibate - could not be inherited because a Catholic priest or bishop could not (in theory) have a legitimate heir to inherit the see or parish.

musicalpilgrim · Oct 11, 2019

ralfyman said:
From what I remember, some of the reasons involved Church property lost to wives and children of married priests. Today, they involve concerns over providing enough income to support families. At least the same were raised by some married priests who converted to Catholicism.

yes, that is correct as I understand it

The first Pope was a married Priest

Should the Church allow married priests?

Yes

No

Undecided

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