Peter the Rock / Protestant and Catholic

Is Peter The Rock of the Church?

  • Yes

    Votes: 15 30.6%
  • No

    Votes: 34 69.4%

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tz620q

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The location of the inquisition is irrelevant. It’s the practice that was the problem not the location. For what it’s worth I do also defend the Roman church on many topics.
Actually the location of the inquisition is historical fact. All else is opinion. That is why Pope John Paul, instead of issuing a blanket apology for the inquisitions commissioned a group to look into the records of each and to uncover the truth, not the "Trail of Blood" exaggerations.
 
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Kaon

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Actually Andrew, Peter’s brother was a disciple who introduced Peter to Jesus.

“Again the next day John was standing with two of his disciples, and he looked at Jesus as He walked, and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God!" The two disciples heard him speak, and they followed Jesus. And Jesus turned and saw them following, and said to them, "What do you seek?" They said to Him, "Rabbi (which translated means Teacher), where are You staying?" He said to them, "Come, and you will see." So they came and saw where He was staying; and they stayed with Him that day, for it was about the tenth hour. One of the two who heard John speak and followed Him, was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother. He found first his own brother Simon and said to him, "We have found the Messiah" (which translated means Christ). He brought him to Jesus. Jesus looked at him and said, "You are Simon the son of John; you shall be called Cephas" (which is translated Peter).”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:35-42‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Ok.
 
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Major1

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That's right. If that happens and the word "loading..." appears in the lower left, you can be sure that it will be posted whenever the problem resolves itself (usually in a couple of minutes). Don't hit "Post Reply" a second time.

Thanks and that is exactly what I did......more than once.
 
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Major1

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Peter did become unmoveable when he faced martyrdom at the hands of Nero.

However...…….the Holy Spirit had come and filled him at that time and it was HIM (HS) that gave Peter the courage to do what he should have done.

But on his own before He was filled with the Holy Spirit he said...………...
"NO, I do not know him"...…. x 3!
 
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Major1

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In my view, the Greek original clearly proves that Jesus alone is "The Rock", not Peter, but given the arguments around this one stand alone verse, surely, there must be evidence elsewhere that confirms it one way or another.

Here's what Paul said about the Israelites escaping Egypt.-
1Cor10v1For I do not want you to be ignorant, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, .....................................................and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they were drinking from the spiritual rock accompanying them, and the rock was Christ.
As can be seen, Paul who writes later, describes Jesus as the Rock, not Peter.
"For I do not want you to be ignorant brothers....." It seems to me that there are many brothers who are determined to remain ignorant!

Romans9v33as it has been written: "Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense; and the one believing on Him will never be put to shame."
We are called here to believe on Jesus, not Peter.

1Peter2v7Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe, “The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,”
8and,“A stone that causes people to stumble and a rock that makes them fall.”

It is Jesus who is the cornerstone that was rejected, not Peter. And that was written by Peter himself!

But lets look where the title originates further back in history.-
Ps61v5Rest in God alone, O my soul, for my hope comes from Him.
6He alone is my rock and my salvation; He is my fortress; I will not be shaken.
7My salvation and my honor rest on God, my strong rock; my refuge is in God.

Again we see the title of Rock being given to God alone, to the exclusion of all others, ie. Peter is excluded from that title.

2Sam22v2And he said:“The Lord is my rock and my fortress and my deliverer;
3The God of my strength, in whom I will trust;

Again, "The Lord is my Rock, not Peter.

Isaiah17v10Because you have forgotten the God of your salvation,
And have not been mindful of the Rock of your stronghold,

Again, our Rock is the God of Salvation, not Peter.

Psalm18v2The Lord is my rock and my fortress and my deliverer;
My God, my strength, in whom I will trust;

Again, the Lord is our Rock not Peter.

And Isaiah states categorically that there is no other Rock than the Lord
Isaiah44v6“Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
‘I am the First and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God.
You are My witnesses. Is there a God besides Me? Indeed there is no other Rock;
I know not one.’ ”

Isaiah says "there is no other Rock", so how can people claim that Peter is also the rock?
The one and only Rock of ages is our Redeemer, the Lord of Hosts, the King of Israel, The First and the Last, all titles of Jesus alone, not Peter!

Proof again-
1Sam2v2“No one is holy like the Lord, For there is none besides You,
Nor is there any rock like our God.
Is there a God besides Me? Indeed there is no other Rock;
I know not one.’ ”

Scripture states categorically that there is no other Rock than God himself, so why do fools persist in giving the title to Peter?

Is26v4Trust in the LORD forever, because GOD the LORD is the everlasting Rock.
Ps92v15To declare that the LORD is upright; He is my rock, and there is no unrighteousness
in Him.
Ps144v1A Psalm of David. Blessed be the LORD, my rock, Who trains my hands for war, And my fingers for battle;


Abundant evidence shows that there is no other Rock that Jesus, our Lord and Redeemer, and nowhere, absolutely nowhere is there any evidence that a man, Peter, has usurped that title.
The Jews of Jesus's time would be very very familiar with the title of "Rock" for God, as the Messianic King of Israel, and neither Peter himself, nor the apostles would have ever considered any other interpretation of the title.

Agreed.

However, I don't think Peter "usurped" that title...IMO.

First of all......oops, Peter was a married man.
(Matthew 8:14, Mark 1:30, Luke 4:38).

Second.....Peter himself regarded himself not as lord of other pastors but simply as another elder of the Church.
(1 Peter 5:1-3).

Then...……In the letter of Paul to the Romans, Peter was nowhaere to be found there.
Peter may have gone to Rome later but he didn't stay there as he was a pastor in Jerusalem.
 
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Mountainmike

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What church body are you referring to?


Is this where I get to whine about 'Anglican bashing?' LOL


I'm thinking that it probably was a good idea to leave your Anglican church, given how little you seem to know of its faith or history.

I know plenty of the history, it's part of why I left.
Anglicans disregard the obvious OT reference on keys of the kingdom ONLY because Henry in his diabolical oath set himself as authority on matters ecclesiastical, and in doing so repudiated the popes authority. To do that the church had to airbrush the biblical reasons for papal authority. Hence the church view on such as keys which doesn't make sense.

So then I asked you a question: what do you consider the meaning of " keys of the kingdom" and what Old Testament authority do you cite for your opinIon.

That's the problem: most protestants say what these verses don't mean. They never have a viable alternative.

I've said it many times: I have every respect for anglicans and I met many holy people there.

I am not an Anglican basher - I am a Henry 8 and QE1 etc basher.

Up until Henry 8 wanted to " a la carte" cherry pick commandments, even the pope thought him a good defender of faith, although Thomas mores writings have a hand in that,

But I cannot reconcile the churches ( often varied and inconsistent) views on many things, which for me are reconciled better in Catholicism.

Indeed the reason inconsistent views started to emerge, was the anglican church cut itself off from the (biblically granted authority that resolves questions on doctrine: the power "to bind and loose"). All protestant churches drift, because they have no source of authority other than differing peoples opinions.
 
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Athanasius377

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You are right. I probably should have fleshed this out a bit more. For us, Scripture and Tradition (apostolic tradition) are from the same font of revelation which is Jesus Christ. There is not the separation between the two as seen in most Protestant churches. When the Church was deciding which books were canon, they used Tradition, as kept alive in the Church, to decide on the validity of books that were going to be sacred. This is not denying the inspiration of God within these books; but it is pointing out that other books seems to have similar inspiration in parts. Also these other books claimed to be apostolic. Tradition allowed the Church to rule on the apostolicity of the books because Tradition had kept track of which ones were truly attributable to the apostles. Similarly Tradition was a light used to shine on a books inspiration. It can be easy from today's viewpoint to look at the theology contained in the Bible and see it as self-evident; but at the time of Pope Damasus, Arianism could have easily bent the Scriptures to more Gnostic ways. Similarly, I think we can agree that Scripture has a profound influence on the Church.

Ok so you are dealing with a canon issue. First, the church did not rule as such on which books were in the canon and which were not until 1546. So what happened in the interim? The church recognized that certain books were inspired, were known to have apostolic authorship or one step removed and taught apostolic doctrine. None of the other books such as the Apocalypse of Peter or the Gospel of Judas taught what the inspired books taught. Not even close. These were primary Gnostic texts written far later and were known to teach false doctrine. Anyone today or even back in the second century reading these books would know instantly that these books are not scripture. There is no similar inspriration in these false books.

Your statement about Arianism and Gnosticism does not make sense. An Arian would not be a Gnostic in any way.
 
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Lost4words

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That is absolutely the truth. Born again Protestants place there love of Scriptural truths over Catholic traditions every single time.

2 Tim. 2:15 says it correctly...…………...
"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

May God bless you.

And its 'Mr' not Mrs ;)
 
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tz620q

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Ok so you are dealing with a canon issue. First, the church did not rule as such on which books were in the canon and which were not until 1546. So what happened in the interim? The church recognized that certain books were inspired, were known to have apostolic authorship or one step removed and taught apostolic doctrine. None of the other books such as the Apocalypse of Peter or the Gospel of Judas taught what the inspired books taught. Not even close. These were primary Gnostic texts written far later and were known to teach false doctrine. Anyone today or even back in the second century reading these books would know instantly that these books are not scripture. There is no similar inspriration in these false books.

Your statement about Arianism and Gnosticism does not make sense. An Arian would not be a Gnostic in any way.
I think we agree upon much. With you I am not as thoughtful with my words (Arianism and Gnosticism are not the same heresy), because I sense that we are not far apart. If we listed the criteria for recognition of the inspired books, we would have the same list. You would probably emphasize the inspiration as so evident that there was little disagreement. I would point out several NT books that were hotly debated and were not universally acknowledged for centuries. The deuterocanon would probably be a second discussion that would be fruitful.

I think the main point of contention is how one sees the flow of Christ's revelation from Himself to the early church to the Bible. We see this flow as more organic from human to human. This does not remove the Holy Spirit from the equation; but does not put the Holy Spirit as working solely without human help. That flow is part of Tradition, not in contention with it.
 
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MournfulWatcher

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Well, I know the difference between the Church governmental offices instituted by Christ and carried out by the apostles in succession, and the fallible men who come and go in the roles, who either live up to the Honor and integrity of the office, or not.

Do you?

Even Judas, Chosen By Christ personally to fill the role of "apostle", did not live up the honor and integrity of the Office, so what did the apostles do? Did they Eliminate the role and call into question the legitimacy of the role of "apostle"? No. They chose another to take his place in that God Ordained Role (Acts 1:20)

Christ and the apostles came to build a Church that would exist forever (Eph 3:21; Matt 16:18-19), and that Church had leadership contained in "offices" (1 Tim 3:1,10; Acts 1:20; Rom 11:13, 12:4).

Offices have authority by virtue of their God-ordained existence, not by virtue of the person holding office. Psalm 109:8 affirms the nature of the offices of the Church--i.e., they are "offices," and they exist apart from the individual, and they continue perpetually for as long as the Melchizedek priesthood shall last (i.e., forever).

Organizational authority and the "offices" set up within it, whether it be Bishops and Popes, Senators and Presidents, or PTA board members and PTA Presidents exist in the same legitimacy they were set up in, whether or not the individuals who come an go who hold the office temporarily, live up to the Honor of the office held. Just because we've had bad Popes doesn't negate the authority of the office itself, any more than the notion that because we've had bad presidents, it therefore negates the legitimacy of the office of POTUS.

Catholic and Eastern Orthodox do claim apostolic succession and have both scripture and history to back them. I don't know of any protestant denoms that can claim this or do claim it. Protestants have to claim that the Church is "invisible" to try and maintain legitimacy as "the Church"--but this is biblically untenable, for the Church of the Holy Scriptures is not invisible but consists of a clear apostolic succession of ordained bishops that hold authority by virtue of their apostolic office (a calling that individuals may or may not live up to, just like the President of the U.S.A.). Quite simply, God created a visible Church and who can deny it from scripture. Protestantism, on the other hand, is 20,000 or more denoms that teach a myriad of different things, do not recognize each other's authority or doctrines, do not work together, compete against each other, etc.etc. It seems impossible to me that anyone could claim protestantism as a legitimate form of the one true Church of scripture (or history).
I have to say, yours is the best explanation for Catholic doctrine I've seen so far. I've been exploring the traditional parts of Christianity for some time and I struggled to find comprehensive answers to my questions on church authority and apostolic succession. You may be giving me a good reason to look into Catholicism again.
 
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Zachm531

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The Church of scripture is one united ecclesial body (Eph 4:3-4; Eph 4:13-16; Jn 17:21; Mt 16:18) without schismatic divisions (1 Cor 12:25; Rom 16:17; 1 Cor 1:10; Jude 1:19; Gal 5:20; 3 John 1:9-10), with one teaching for all the churches (Acts 15:22-23,25,28/Acts 16:4-5; 1 Tim 1:3; 1 Cor 1:10; Eph 4:5; Jude 1:3), and one bishopric authorized of and by the apostles (Titus 1:5) by the laying on of hands in ordination (Heb 6:2; 2 Tim 1:6; 1 Tim 4:14; Titus 1:5), sharing ministers back and forth among all churches (1 Cor 16:3; Rom 16:1,3,9,21,23; Phil 2:19,25; Titus 3:12), receiving one another in fellowship and in greeting (Rom 15:5-7; Rom 16:16; Col 4:10,12,14; 3 John 1:9-10), where excommunication removes individuals from this one body (Matt 18:17; 1 Corinthians 5:1-2,4-5), and which existed from St. Peter and the apostles unto today (Matt 16:18-19; Eph 3:21).

Protestantism, in Contrast, is an endless schism of divisions with multiple different teachings and authority structures, with no effective means of excommunication and no traceable Apostolic Lineage.

Given these two polar opposite church structures, I'm going to side with the Church of Scripture, every time.

Pope Clement of Rome (late 80s AD) wrote a letter to the Corinthians, and the letter was in response to THEIR appeal to him to solve a serious doctrinal division they were having. So, even in the late first century there were apostolic Churches that were making appeals to the Bishop of Rome to settle grave disputes.

The fact remains that There was only one denomination until the protesting catholics broke away in the 1500s (Luther etc). Moreover, only one group of christians can trace its existence from the first century down to today: the catholics. No protestant denomination traces its history back to before about AD 1500. So, we know for a fact that no modern protestant sect has apostolic origins. Yet the catholic sect does, for it originated in the first century and continued in unbroken existence down to our times.

It has continued for 20 centuries now, and its doctrines have never changed. No other organization or government has lasted even beyond a few centuries.

Francis is, also without question, the 266th successor of the Prime Minister of the King, Bishop of the Church of Rome, an apostolic Church which appears in our bibles.

As I mentioned above, The postions of authority in Israel were held within "offices" (Lk 1:8 or Heb 7:5, for example). This continued right on in the offices of the New Israel of the Church. That is, Christ and the apostles came to build a Church that would exist forever (Eph 3:21; Matt 16:18-19), and that Church had leadership contained in "offices" (1 Tim 3:1,10; Acts 1:20; Rom 11:13, 12:4).

Offices have authority by virtue of their God-ordained existence, not by virtue of the person holding office. Psalm 109:8 affirms the nature of the offices of the Church--i.e., they are "offices," and they exist apart from the individual, and they continue perpetually for as long as the Melchizedek priesthood shall last (i.e., forever).

Apostolic Succession is historical and biblical. It can be traced by history, going all the way back generation by generation to Jesus. This is precisely why the Catholic priesthood is the one Jesus instituted 20 centuries ago. This is NOT at all to say those outside of this order are not Christians, but only to say that God has created a governmental order to the Church, and this has not been followed by protestants who broke away from the government of the Church and denied it existed any longer since "the papacy became the endtimes antichrist" (as Luther falsely taught). Obviously, the chaos of the protestant world is the result of this breaking away from the ordained Church government instituted by Christ.
 

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Francis Drake

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Agreed.

However, I don't think Peter "usurped" that title...IMO.
Of course he didn't, and that's what my post said, (see below).
"...….and nowhere, absolutely nowhere is there any evidence that a man, Peter, has usurped that title."
 
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It did not fail in the East :) with the Orthodox

I agree which is why I believe the EOC is the apostolic church mentioned in Matthew 16:18. I believe Rome went thru a period of attack and infiltration by corrupted Roman politicians. I don’t think that is the case today, but I do think that the Roman church today fails to recognize mistakes that were made during the time of the corruption. I think their teachings on purgatory are probably the biggest example. I think their unwillingness to admit their mistakes is directly related to their claim of the infallibility of the papacy and the magisterium.
 
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BNR32FAN

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That doesn't make it doctrine or dogma, though. Trying to stretch the definition to cover just about anything renders the word meaningless.

Doctrine : a principle or position or the body of principles in a branch of knowledge or system of belief :

If it was officially sanctioned by the pope and instituted and carried out by the church then it is an official position or principle of the church.
 
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Concord1968

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Doctrine : a principle or position or the body of principles in a branch of knowledge or system of belief :

If it was officially sanctioned by the pope and instituted and carried out by the church then it is an official position or principle of the church.
And you've just rendered the word meaningless by stretching it to include pretty much everything.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Actually the location of the inquisition is historical fact. All else is opinion. That is why Pope John Paul, instead of issuing a blanket apology for the inquisitions commissioned a group to look into the records of each and to uncover the truth, not the "Trail of Blood" exaggerations.

I do agree that many have exaggerated the number of executions that took place during that time. I believe Britanica.com probably has a more accurate number around 2000 if memory serves correctly, which is not hard to imagine given the time span of 686 years. The inquisition was a idea that the church had the authority to force people to covert to Christianity. Where it took place is irrelevant. Why would the location matter?
 
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And you've just rendered the word meaningless by stretching it to include pretty much everything.

I didn’t write the Merriam Webster dictionary my friend.
 
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