yeshuaslavejeff

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1 Peter 2
13 Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether it be to the emperor as supreme, or to governors as sent by him to punish those who do evil and to praise those who do good. For this is the will of God, that by doing good you should put to silence the ignorance of foolish people.
Since from quite a number of posts, obeying man is more important to you than obeying God, what do you believe will happen for disobeying God so often without repentance ?
 
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joshua 1 9

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Why does the mother's financial situation have a bearing upon the morality of abortion?
That is not my call. Are you suggesting that a women does not need to get the doctors involved? Then you will need to deal with them on this issue.
Perhaps your dream was just your subconscious comforting you?
I already extensively answered this.
 
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SPF

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That is not my call. Are you suggesting that a women does not need to get the doctors involved? Then you will need to deal with them on this issue.
You're jumping into the middle of my discussion with someone else, which is fine, but please try and catch up first if you're going to do that. I don't have any clue what you mean by your question or what it has to do with the point I was making.

The morality of abortion is 100% dependent upon our understanding of the nature of the human being inside the womb. If we are created in God's Image from conception, then we have inherent moral worth and value from conception. Our moral worth and value stem entirely and wholly upon the fact that we are created in the Image of God.

The how in which we came to exist has no bearing upon our moral worth and value. The economic situation or any other situation of the mother has no bearing upon the unborn child's moral worth and value.

Abortion is immoral because all human beings are created in the Image of God and possess inherent moral worth and value. It doesn't matter if the unborn baby came into existence VIA rape, or if the unborn babies mother is on financially hard times, or if the mother is young, or if the mother is etc... Abortion is immoral because abortion is the intentional killing of an innocent human being created in the Image of God.
 
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joshua 1 9

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abortion is entirely, 100% dependent upon how we understand
Really life is based on our understanding? God help us if you really believe this. The Bible says NOT to trust in our own understanding but to trust in God.
 
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SPF

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Really life is based on our understanding? God help us if you really believe this. The Bible says NOT to trust in our own understanding but to trust in God.
If that's the only thing you have to say to the entirety of my post, then I can only assume you aren't really interested in discussion.
 
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GodLovesCats

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I am not denying most abortions are immoral. I even said they are in the post your quoted. This is about the government being immoral toward the mothers, which is absolutely crucial to prevent their abortions. Let me know when you figure out women truly need to end their pregnancies because red politicians have been refusing to do what Jesus would do to help them stay pregnant. Are you sure all of those women do not believe life begins at conception?
 
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SPF

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It is entirely my own.
So it's a paraphrase. Back in 1996, Clinton coined the phrase "safe, legal, and rare".

Let me know when you figure out women truly need to end their pregnancies because red politicians have been refusing to do what Jesus would do to help them stay pregnant.
Wait, women "truly need to end their pregnancies.." ? You see, this is where your disconnect is. If abortion is immoral, then women need to never end their pregnancies, regardless of their socio-economic realities.

You're blaming the government and excusing immoral acts because you personally believe it's the government's responsibility to provide complete and exhaustive care for pregnant mothers. Where do we draw the line? What is enough? Should the government buy a house for pregnant women? Just how much care is the government obligated to give a woman?

There are lots of public government assistance programs available to single pregnant women. There are lots of private organizations that are also dedicated to helping single pregnant women.

But again, a woman's socio-economic situation will never determine the morality of an abortion. An abortion kills an innocent unborn human being - that action is immoral because the moral worth and value of all humans stems from the immutable, perfect character of God.
 
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parousia70

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As a Christian I am fully aware that my comments below will be unwelcome. The Bible addresses the question of abortion directly only twice and in both cases there is no unambiguous condemnation. But there is a whole other consideration that is on my mind:

It is obvious that both the female egg and the male sperm have a form of life but no one would call either a person. When they unite to form a zygote it certainly is alive. There is a potential person there and a great many people would claim that it actually is a person. Let us grant for a moment that the zygote is a person and let us call that person Mary. I choose a female name since all embryos are female until about the sixth or seventh week.

Interesting.. so Mary, if she doesn't divide in two, could either stay Mary or Become Marvin at week 7... If Mary Becomes Marvin, what happens to Mary? she no longer exists? or does she still exist within Marvin somehow?

If an abortion (spontaneous or intentional) happens at 5 weeks to Zygote Mary who was genetically destined to become embryo Marvin, did two abortions of one single Zygote therefore take place? Mary's AND Marvin's?

Might help explain why Some Marvins live their lives identifying as Mary's... doesn't really do much to explain the opposite however..:scratch:

It does undeniably explain why all Males have nipples, for sure.

Now, we all know that a zygote develops into an embryo through the process of cell division. Every now and again the first cell division does not produce a two celled embryo but rather a second zygote --- identical twins. Did Mary suddenly become two persons? Was Mary two persons to begin with? Was Mary even a person to begin with?
Absolutely Fascinating.
Even as a Staunch Pro Lifer, I have no Idea what the pro life position on this question is.
Hoping some of my fellow pro lifers will chime in...

Let us set those questions aside for the moment and grant that the second zygote is also a person whom we shall call Margaret. It is entirely possible that one or both of these zygotes could divide again to result in triplets, quadruplets, quintuplets etc. The same question applies as to whether one person can became two, three or more persons. When does a person become a person?

If all individual human life begins at conception when the first, single cell is created, as the pro life position asserts, and it eventually becomes 3 or 4 separate, distinct persons through cell division, then it must have been all 3 or 4 unique individual persons at conception of the one single cell, since the other 2 or three resulting zygotes did not have an individual conception point of their own, yet they are undeniably alive and individual.
Has science discovered if Identical twins were genetically destined to split in two from the moment of conception, or if it happens only by random chance at the moment of the split?

These questions might be difficult enough but now it becomes even more complex. Sometimes two eggs are fertilized to form non-identical twins. Once again, let us call them Mary and Margaret. Rarely the two zygotes merge together again to form a two celled embryo. This is called a chimera. Who is this new embryo? Is it Mary or is it Margaret? This new embryo, this chimera, let us call it Mary, develops to term and is born. There is now no question at all that Mary is indeed a person. But here is the odd thing, some of the organs of Mary carry her genes but other organs carry the genes of her twin sister Margaret. So Margaret continues to exist within Mary or perhaps it is Mary within Margaret. Do we have two persons within a single body?
Again, quite fascinating... same conundrum as the Female> Male switch.. Hmmm

These very serious questions of person-hood arise only if we assume that the soul is infused at conception and that the brand new zygote is fully a person.

Which would mandate that identical twins/triplets/quadruplets had all 2-4 souls "Infused" into the one initial single celled Zygote at the beginning... 4 souls in ONE SINGLE CELL! Sounds Crowded!
Personally I believe that the developing fetus becomes a person only when it is able to survive outside the womb. Sentience occurs at about the same point in the pregnancy very late in the second trimester.

I'd like to learn more about this specific assertion.

Sentience, in this situation, is defined as?

Got any links showing how we arrive at the timing of Human Sentience "occurring"?

What an interesting and though provoking post.
I'm surprised I'm the first to comment on it.
I eagerly await my fellow pro lifers to help provide some clarity.
 
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Tropical Wilds

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Abortion is legal because the Party that allows it to be legal is immoral, and simply
slapping God in the face. They're playing God(by determining who lives and who dies, and nobody should have that power but God!!!), and if you vote for that party, you're slapping God in the face also.

The only card that this party uses to "justify" Abortion, is that a woman's body is her own, and she may do with it what she wants. Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeell. Is it really? Here is a Bible verse that disproves that. 1 Corinthians 6:19 19What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
1 Corinthians 6:19
Both parties are corrupt(don't get me wrong), but I could never vote for a Party that allows the slaughter of millions of innocent babies. Owe, and also sells their body parts off for "scientific research".

The fact is, that it is a GOD Given Priviledge! and Right! given to a woman from God, to be able to concieve a baby, and when a woman Aborts a Baby, she and the Democrat Politicians that allowed it to happen are playing God, and they are both Disrespecting, and Dishonoring God. I've seen places on the internet where Abortion is a sport. Some Women intentionally want to get pregnant on that site, so they can intentionally have an Abortion! How sick is that!? You can thank the Democrat Politicians, and Democrat Judges for that.

And posts like this are why I’m pro choice.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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And posts like this are why I’m pro choice.
Is this an admission or a confession ?

I'd hope all serious choices would be as Jesus Says, from the Father in heaven, and not as men (any men) say. (and always in line with God's Word)
 
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Tropical Wilds

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Is this an admission or a confession ?

I'd hope all serious choices would be as Jesus Says, from the Father in heaven, and not as men (any men) say. (and always in line with God's Word)

It’s a declaration.
 
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SPF

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And posts like this are why I’m pro choice.
That’s not surprising. I would imagine most Christians that are pro-choice haven’t really studied the actual issue like you just admitted to.

I personally prefer to have more intellectual integrity than that and base my belief upon actual study and research.

As a Christian, I believe that Scripture teaches that humans are unique among God’s creation and that we are inherently morally valuable because we alone are created in God’s Image.

Couple that truth with the biological fact that a new human being comes into existence at fertilization, and I think the logical outcome is that abortion is the immoral killing of a truly innocent and morally valuable human being.

but hey, if you just want to troll a thread and speak sarcastically then go ahead.
 
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Tropical Wilds

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That’s not surprising. I would imagine most Christians that are pro-choice haven’t really studied the actual issue like you just admitted to.

I never admitted to not knowing about the issue, nor would I. Having had a D&C, a couple actually, and having supported family members and friends in various situations, I’m pretty well versed on the topic.

I personally prefer to have more intellectual integrity than that and base my belief upon actual study and research.

As a Christian, I believe that Scripture teaches that humans are unique among God’s creation and that we are inherently morally valuable because we alone are created in God’s Image.

Couple that truth with the biological fact that a new human being comes into existence at fertilization, and I think the logical outcome is that abortion is the immoral killing of a truly innocent and morally valuable human being.

And I support your right to whatever conclusion you reach on the subject.

but hey, if you just want to troll a thread and speak sarcastically then go ahead.

I wasn’t trolling or being sarcastic, actually.
 
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Cis.jd

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abortion is legal because this generation is filled with whiners who need to have easy way outs and refuse to do something that requires a backbone such as "taking responsibility".

Why encourage people to use their head and practice the unique human feature known as wisdom when making decisions on our actions, when we can make so much money off these easy way out services?

It's all about appeasing some weak minded people who love to whine and moan about everything, so they can just keep feeling good about themselves and have safety net for the penalties that they would have to face.
 
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