Different versions of the Bible

GodLovesCats · Oct 8, 2019

Here you go:

[The earliest manuscripts and many other ancient witnesses do not have John 7:53—8:11. A few manuscripts include these verses, wholly or in part, after John 7:36, John 21:25, Luke 21:38 or Luke 24:53.]

52They replied, “Are you from Galilee, too? Look into it, and you will find that a prophet does not come out of Galilee.”

53Then they all went home,

1but Jesus went to the Mount of Olives.

2At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. 3The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4and said to Jesus, “Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women.Now what do you say?” 6They were using this question as a trap,in order to have a basis for accusing him.

But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.” 8Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.

9At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10Jesus straightened up and asked her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?”

11“No one, sir,” she said.

JackRT · Oct 8, 2019

ChristianForCats said:
Here you go:

[The earliest manuscripts and many other ancient witnesses do not have John 7:53—8:11. A few manuscripts include these verses, wholly or in part, after John 7:36, John 21:25, Luke 21:38 or Luke 24:53.]

36What did he mean when he said, ‘You will look for me, but you will not find me,’ and ‘Where I am, you cannot come’?”

37On the last and greatest day of the festival, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, “Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink. 38Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.” c 39By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.

40On hearing his words, some of the people said, “Surely this man is the Prophet.”

41Others said, “He is the Messiah.”

Still others asked, “How can the Messiah come from Galilee? 42Does not Scripture say that the Messiah will come from David’s descendants and from Bethlehem, the town where David lived?” 43Thus the people were divided because of Jesus. 44Some wanted to seize him, but no one laid a hand on him.

Unbelief of the Jewish Leaders

45Finally the temple guards went back to the chief priests and the Pharisees, who asked them, “Why didn’t you bring him in?”

46“No one ever spoke the way this man does,” the guards replied.

47“You mean he has deceived you also?” the Pharisees retorted. 48“Have any of the rulers or of the Pharisees believed in him? 49No! But this mob that knows nothing of the law—there is a curse on them.”

50Nicodemus, who had gone to Jesus earlier and who was one of their own number, asked, 51“Does our law condemn a man without first hearing him to find out what he has been doing?”

52They replied, “Are you from Galilee, too? Look into it, and you will find that a prophet does not come out of Galilee.”

53Then they all went home,

1but Jesus went to the Mount of Olives.

2At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. 3The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4and said to Jesus, “Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women.Now what do you say?” 6They were using this question as a trap,in order to have a basis for accusing him.

But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.” 8Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.

9At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10Jesus straightened up and asked her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?”

11“No one, sir,” she said.

May I ask why you posted that?

GodLovesCats · Oct 8, 2019

I want to discuss the issue of this section being added to the Scripture (starting at 7:53) even though the Bible clearly says nothing is to be added to it and the Word is infallible.

HardHead · Oct 8, 2019

ChristianForCats said:
I never saw the "at her" part. Which version did you get that from?

Most/all versions I have, use that wording for John 8:7. For example ...

(ESV) And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, “Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her.”

(NASB) But when they persisted in asking Him, He straightened up, and said to them, "He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."

(NRSV) When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "Let anyone among you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her."

(RSV) And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, "Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her."

JackRT · Oct 8, 2019

ChristianForCats said:
I want to discuss the issue of this section being added to the Scripture (starting at 7:53) even though the Bible clearly says nothing is to be added to it and the Word is infallible.

John of Patmos wrote in Revelation that no one should add anything to his book, it was not in reference to all of scripture. In addition, I am not one who believes that the Bible is either inerrant (infallible) or to be read literally.

But in answer to your question, I am not sure at what point in time that passage was added by an unknown scribe. Over time it has become a favourite and I can well understand why and I suspect that is the reason it has remained in the vast majority of Bibles.

GodLovesCats · Oct 8, 2019

Here is an example of writers changing the Bible.

HardHead said:
(ESV) And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, “Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her.”

(NASB) But when they persisted in asking Him, He straightened up, and said to them, "He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."

(NRSV) When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "Let anyone among you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her."

Why aren't they all the same?

HardHead · Oct 8, 2019

ChristianForCats said:
I want to discuss the issue of this section being added to the Scripture (starting at 7:53) even though the Bible clearly says nothing is to be added to it and the Word is infallible.

The translations are based on different Greek sources. If these sources are different, then the translations into English will be different. The translations can all be correct (due to the different Greek sources) and yet they can all be different as well. What is 'correct' regarding a translation depends on where you start looking.

The issue may be that we have not really figured out or agreed on just what we mean by 'the' bible. Are the Catholic, Orthodox, or Coptic apocrypha in or out? It depends on who you ask. Are parts of John in or out? It depends on what you mean by 'John'.

The various apocrypha and the what was added/removed question is a subjective political minefield and is not on topic.

Regarding the content of John, I don't see that as an issue really. Its a dynamic thing in my view in that it is currently being figured out. The figuring out part is not over, that is all.

Consider how many verses the John 7:53 to 8:11 is. Then consider how much of a percentage that number is relative to the overall number of verses in the Bible overall and of the New Testament.

It's a small fraction that is in question: 100*(12/31173) = 0.038495%
which is about 1/25th of one percent of the Bible overall and 100*(12/7959) = 0.1508% of the New Testament. I think I got the numbers approximately right, but someone should verify this.

To me, these small percentages mean that the various sources/translations basically agree down to minor details. I would not worry about this at all.

JackRT · Oct 8, 2019

ChristianForCats said:
Here is an example of writers changing the Bible.

Why aren't they all the same?

There are a number of possible reasons for this:

1. Translation from one language to another particularly when there is a vast cultural difference and a long time difference is very difficult.

2. Of the approximately 10,000 ancient manuscripts no two are alike in every respect. It may depend on just which manuscripts the translator consulted. The KJV translator only had ten to consult and they mostly ignored the most ancient ones.

thomas15 · Oct 8, 2019

One of the reasons I really like the New King James translation is because it uses the TR (actually a close rendering of the TR) and gives alternate greek renderings such as those from the MT in the margin notes. So you get the accuracy of the KJ bible in a modern English rendering and the competing manuscript renderings for major differences in the manuscripts.

HardHead · Oct 8, 2019

ChristianForCats said:
Why aren't they all the same?

See Post #47.

Also consider that the people doing the translating from the various and different original texts may interpret certain words/phrases differently over time due to changing opinions/research on these texts.

New findings of various Greek and Hebrew texts change how the translations are carried out so the translations are revised. Its simply not a completed work and it is always being revised and updated.

Further, the changes in the wording may also be done to transfer an idea from one language onto another. This is often done to make the idea coherent vs. translating the original text word for word.

If you want 'the bible' you are probably going to have to learn to read Greek. Even if you do read it in Greek, you will see differences in the Greek texts themselves and will have a similar problem in figuring out what is to be included or considered as 'the bible'.

Since these translation differences are generally very minor and are small in comparison to the overall text, I would not worry about the wording being the same at all.

Instead, read the various translations, and ask yourself: is the idea/thought the same in each case? That is the important part.

This is why it is useful to have a software that can provide the different translations to you easily and quickly.

Pick a bible you like, and read it. If you find text that is difficult to interpret, look at another translation to see if it helps.

GodLovesCats · Oct 8, 2019

thomas15 said:
One of the reasons I really like the New King James translation is because it uses the TR (actually a close rendering of the TR) and gives alternate greek renderings such as those from the MT in the margin notes. So you get the accuracy of the KJ bible in a modern English rendering and the competing manuscript renderings for major differences in the manuscripts.

What is MT?

Concord1968 · Oct 8, 2019

ChristianForCats said:
What is MT?

Majority Text

JackRT · Oct 8, 2019

ChristianForCats said:
What is MT?

Masoretic Text.

HardHead · Oct 8, 2019

We seem to be talking about the New Testament so its probably not Masoretic Text since that refers to a Hebrew text base of the Old Testament.

For the New Testament its probably Majority Text:
Byzantine text-type - Wikipedia

Then again it could be either one depending on context.

Isilwen · Oct 14, 2019

ChristianForCats said:
The King James Bible is very hard to read because it is not a direct translation from its original languages (Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek) to modern English, using English vocabulary, spelling, grammar, and syntax. Someone told me the New International Version is missing some verses that are in the KJV, so it is important to read the least readable Bible. Nobody can convince me I need to read a specific version of the Bible just like nobody can talk me into being a Catholic. I want to know more about different Bible versions that are readable for native English readers including the English Standard Version, American Standard Version, and similar Bibles.

Coming from Catholicism myself and having just left it, I am fond of the NIV and the NKJV, maybe even the NRSV.

Yes, there are verses missing in some Bibles that appear in the KJV, but many of them are in footnotes or weren't found in the earliest manuscripts to begin with and were removed.

Mathetes66 · Oct 20, 2019

Here is an example of writers changing the Bible. Why aren't they all the same?

(ESV) And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, “Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her.”

(NASB) But when they persisted in asking Him, He straightened up, and said to them, "He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."

(NRSV) When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "Let anyone among you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her."

Several reasons, the first being copyright reasons in our day & age. If everything were EXACTLY the same, then plaigerism would happen in a legal fashion, as most new translations of the Bible are copyrighted.

Second, in the original languages, such as Greek, words have a 'semantic range', that is, there are a number of meanings from a word, depending on the context. Also in Greek there are tenses that need to be considered. This is called 'parsing' a sentence or phrase based on parts of speech, gender, tense, case, etc . {to separate (as a sentence) into component parts of speech & describe them grammatically; to describe grammatically by stating the part of speech & explaining the inflection & syntactical relationships}

One can immediately see that TRANSLATION work (going from one language to another & seeking to convey the same meaning in each language) is not easy to do & one needs to be trained in & fluent in both, in order to accurately translate.

Some translations use formal translation (word for word) & some use 'dynamic equivalence', as you see in the example quoted.

Straightened up means the same as stood up or raise or lift himself up. Nothing has changed as to the meaning of the Greek word, 'anakupto' (Strong's Concordance Greek number: 352). It is formed by a prefix ('ana') and a root ('kupto') which in its root meaning is literally 'to unbend.' It is used in the NT four times. (Luke 13:11; 21:28; John 8:7; 8:10)

So the semantic range allows for saying synonymous phrases that simply are ways of describing how one would 'unbend.'

So to comply with copyright laws & still remain within the same meaning of the Greek word in its semantic range, one can use interchangeably the various synomic meanings: straighten UP, raise UP, lift UP oneself, stand UP, etc.

It is not changing the Bible but simply demonstrating that synomic terms mean the same thing for that particular Greek word.

I hope that gives you a better idea and appreciation for those people who have dedicated their lives studying the original languages of the Bible & then seeking to translate the Scriptures into the 6500 languages of the world, so people might hear the Word of God in their native tongue or dialect.

JackRT · Oct 20, 2019

If you have been paying attention to more recent translations of the Gospel of John, you will have noticed that John 7:53 - 8:11—the story of the woman caught in adultery of whom Jesus says, "Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her"—has been getting some interesting treatment by the scholars. The evidence that it was not an original part of this gospel is clear. The verses are absent from a wide array of early and diverse witnesses (papyrus 66, papyrus 75, A [Codex Sinaiticus], B [Codex Vaticanus] and a host of others), and there is evidence that some manuscripts of John place these verses after John 7:36, some after John 7;52, some after John 21:25, and one manuscript even has it in the Gospel of Luke after Luke 21:38.

Mathetes66 · Oct 20, 2019

Where is the Story of the Woman Caught in Adultery really from?

Luke 1:1-4 Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us, 2just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses & servants of the word. 3With this in mind, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, I too decided to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, 4so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.

While many scholars seem to agree that this section doesn't 'seem to fit' in the gospel of John in their opinions, many agree it is a true story concerning Jesus. Some think it should fit more appropriately in the gospel of Luke.

Neither Do I Condemn You

Is John 8:1-11 really in Scripture?

More evidence to consider:

(Jn. 7:53-8:11) Does this belong in the Bible? | Evidence Unseen

Yet more evidence from the early church fathers:

Ministry and Music - Seeking the Old Paths: Pericope adulterae in early church writings

Why the Story of the Woman Caught in Adultery Belongs in the Bible

Josheb · Nov 29, 2019

ChristianForCats said:
The King James Bible is very hard to read because it is not a direct translation from its original languages (Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek) to modern English, using English vocabulary, spelling, grammar, and syntax. Someone told me the New International Version is missing some verses that are in the KJV, so it is important to read the least readable Bible. Nobody can convince me I need to read a specific version of the Bible just like nobody can talk me into being a Catholic. I want to know more about different Bible versions that are readable for native English readers including the English Standard Version, American Standard Version, and similar Bibles.

Start Here.

There is a website that compares everything from the various Greek manuscripts and schools of thought to the various English translations but I've lost the bookmark. If I track down the website again I'll post a link.

Among those who consider themselves exegetes from novice to pro I suspect few use only one translation. Most I know personal and read from in forums use one formal translation and one dynamic translation - at a minimum. I personally use the NAS as my daily Bible because I prefer the literal word-for-word translation but I also use the NIV and to a slightly lesser degree the ESV. However, I have about two-dozen hard-copy translations that I have used over the years and am currently reading through the NLT just to examine its rendering. I don't like it. No single translation is perfect and while some are better than others much of your choice is personal rpeference because they all have errors and most do a fine job of rendering the manuscripts.

I also don't like commentary or study Bibles. I use my kindle mostly but when I carry around a hard copy my Bible (both NAS and NIV) are single-column paragraph format Bibles. The ext looks like the text of any other book one might purchase. Neither looks like the traditional two-column single-verse text of most Bibles and neither has more commentary from men than the word of God. Now I say that having read through the Bible from beginning to end many times and many study Bibles. They were helpful. As a more mature Christian with some familiarity with the Bible I prefer to do my reading from a plain Bible and when studying its intricacies and details I avail myself of various commentaries. We live in an age when most of us have access to more translations and extra-biblical resources than we can possibly use.... within a few mouse clicks! I do my morning devotion and study on the computer and rarely is there a day when I don't consult the Hebrew and/or Greek just to make sure whatever English I'm using is correct and well understood.

I recommend you find a translation you like and read it as written from cover to cover. Then read the Bible again from beginning to end chronologically, in the order written. The practice of compiling source material back when the Bible was assembled was to place the largest books of each genre first. That is why Romans is the first epistle even though it was one of the last written. Chronologically written Bible can be purchased separately but you can also find timelines online and read the Bible you like accordingly.

hedrick · Nov 29, 2019

ChristianForCats said:
What do you all think of the NRSV having gender-neutral text insstead of the original male pronouns?

Greek has a version of "man", anthropos, which is often gender-neutral. To translate that as "man" is misleading. So traditional translations also have a problem. The job of a translator is to give you the meaning of the original. If the original is, either because it uses a word like anthropos, or from context, clearly neutral, then translating it as neutral is fine. That's why NIV and other translations are doing the same.

The disagreement isn't really over the meaning of the original, but over the politics of English. No one thinks "man does not live by bread alone" refers only to males. (Incidentally, this is "anthropos" in Greek.) It used to be accepted that masculine forms in English are often gender-neutral. Today many people consider it inappropriate to use masculine that way, and use neutral wording when referring to both genders. NRSV follows that convention. They do not, for example, refer to Jesus as neutral. They don't even appear to use gender-neutral language with respect to God -- at least i found places where "he" is used for God. They use gender-neutral only where the original is neutral.

Different versions of the Bible

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