Is salvation by grace alone? Or faith alone? Or grace through faith? or by faith plus repentance?

Bible Highlighter · Oct 8, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
Amen even the definition of Greek words that are translated to the English words faith, believe, and believer all imply a certain level of trustworthiness, faithfulness, fidelity, and loyalty. The problem is there are no English words that fully encompasses the definitions of the Greek words used.

believe

G4100

Lemma:

πιστεύω

Transliteration:

pisteúō

Pronounce:

pist-yoo'-o

Part of Speech:

Verb

Language:

greek

Description:

1) to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in a) of the thing believed

1) to credit, have confidence b) in a moral or religious reference

1) used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul

2) to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith

3) mere acknowledgment of some fact or event: intellectual faith

2) to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity a) to be intrusted with a thing

believers

G4103

Lemma:

πιστός

Transliteration:

pistós

Pronounce:

pis-tos'

Part of Speech:

Adjective

Language:

greek

Description:

1) trusty, faithful a) of persons who show themselves faithful in the transaction of business, the execution of commands, or the discharge of official duties b) one who kept his plighted faith, worthy of trust c) that can be relied on

2) easily persuaded a) believing, confiding, trusting b) in the NT one who trusts in God's promises

1) one who is convinced that Jesus has been raised from the dead

2) one who has become convinced that Jesus is the Messiah and author of salvation

faith

G4102

Lemma:

πίστις

Transliteration:

pístis

Pronounce:

pis'-tis

Part of Speech:

Noun Feminine

Language:

greek

Description:

1) conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man's relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervour born of faith and joined with it a) relating to God

1) the conviction that God exists and is the creator and ruler of all things, the provider and bestower of eternal salvation through Christ b) relating to Christ

1) a strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God c) the religious beliefs of Christians d) belief with the predominate idea of trust (or confidence) whether in God or in Christ, springing from faith in the same

2) fidelity, faithfulness a) the character of one who can be relied on

I believe there are instances where the word "belief" or "believe" simply means "belief' as we understand that word today. James says he will show you his faith (belief) by his works (James 2:18), for even the demons believe and tremble (James 2:19). It is hard to imagine that demons have the kind of belief that involves any kind of loyalty. So I do see that belief does play a part in how we are initially and ultimately saved. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 even says this (i.e. a "belief in the truth" is a part of salvation). But 2 Thessalonians 2:13 also says that the Sanctification of the Spirit also plays a part in salvation, too.

In fact, believing in Christ's death, burial, and resurrection is the gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1-4). This is essential to our salvation. Granted, we also have to OBEY the gospel (Which is a part of salvation), too (1 Thessalonians 1:8-9) (Romans 6:3-11). But both believing in God's grace through faith in Christ, and Sanctification play a part in the salvation process. For it was by faith that men of GOD were able to do certain kinds of works for GOD in Hebrews 11. Works of faith are a by product of a true faith.

BNR32FAN · Oct 8, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
I believe the context (surrounding words) determines the definition of a word. Meaning, if were to put a blank space _______ for a mystery word in the place for the word "repent" we were to simply look at the surround words to define what is filled in the blank we can come to a reasonable conclusion of what that word means even without a name for that word or without using a Lexicon that was defined by religious guys. The list of verses I provide proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that the word "repent" appears in use of the context of supporting the idea that it means "seeking forgiveness with the Lord." The surrounding words supports this fact.

I agree but a person has to have an open mind in order to properly perceive the context instead of having preconceived notions and trying to interpret the context to fit these notions.

BNR32FAN · Oct 8, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
I believe there are instances where the word "belief" or "believe" simply means "belief' as we understand that word today. James says he will show you his faith (belief) by his works (James 2:18), for even the demons believe and tremble (James 2:19). It is hard to imagine that demons have the kind of belief that involves any kind of loyalty. So I do see that belief does play a part in how we are initially and ultimately saved. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 even says this (i.e. a "belief in the truth" is a part of salvation). But 2 Thessalonians 2:13 also says that the Sanctification of the Spirit also plays a part in salvation, too.

In fact, believing in Christ's death, burial, and resurrection is the gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1-4). This is essential to our salvation. Granted, we also have to OBEY the gospel (Which is a part of salvation), too (1 Thessalonians 1:8-9) (Romans 6:3-11). But both believing in God's grace through faith in Christ, and Sanctification play a part in the salvation process. For it was by faith that men of GOD were able to do certain kinds of works for GOD in Hebrews 11. Works of faith are a by product of a true faith.

That’s a good point about James’ reference to demons believing.

Bible Highlighter · Oct 8, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
That’s a good point about James’ reference to demons believing.

Thanks, brother.

Bible Highlighter · Oct 8, 2019

Well, let all glory and thanks be given to GOD (I should say).
All good, and or anything I know is from Him. So praise the name of the Lord indeed.

createdtoworship · Oct 8, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
Again, you fail to understand that Paul was fighting against "Circumcision Salvationism," Which was a heresy at the time put forth by the Jews to deceive Christians into thinking they had to first be circumcised in order to be saved vs. accepting Christ and His grace by faith (and in seeking his forgiveness along with believing in his death and resurrection).

Romans 3:1. Context.

Paul hints at fighting against this heresy by saying,

"What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?" (Romans 3:1).

Think. If a person is seeking to be saved by circumcision as the basis for their salvation, they are putting a work and not God's grace as the foundation of their faith. Hence, why Paul was speaking in the way that he did. He was condemning "Law Alone Salvationism" (without God's grace) because he was fighting against "Circumcision Salvationism."

you have verses that apply directly to the time and to the jews yes, but just because it was written for jews for example does not mean that we don't apply the same exact scripture in a long term fulfillment to the modern church. That is a very very faulty view of scripture. Very common in seminaries. But very very innacurate. I suggest you pray over this issue.

createdtoworship · Oct 8, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
So you believe that when a Christian chooses to not break God's Moral Laws like "Do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not covet, etc," they are not doing so as a form of salvation? Jesus says if you will enter into life, keep the commandments and then he listed the Moral Law that I just mentioned (See: Matthew 19:17-19). So is Jesus teaching that we are saved by keeping the Law? Did not Paul say that if we seek to be justified by the Law, we have fallen from grace? Galatians 5:4. But again, context tells us that Paul was fighting against "Circumcision Salvationism." For Paul says to the Galatians that if you seek to be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. Circumcision was a part of the Old Law and it is not a part of the laws or commands given to us by Jesus and His followers.

sir you simply cannot say any verse that mentions we are saved by grace through faith, to apply only to Jews. He was comabatting a works mentality. "lest we could boast" the Bible says. See if God allows us to work for salvation, then when we get it, we will think we are better than others. And that is not the case, because we all have sin, none of us are perfect. Boasting is excluded in grace. But that does not mean we must not repent when we are saved. But repentance is not described as a work in the Bible. Again I have debated you before, and you have quoted websites that have influenced you, I recognize much of what you have said from earlier debates, so I fail to see how by just reading the bible you have come to these conclusions. Like I said I am on my third time through the scriptures myself, and when I formulated this gospel message in post one it was after reading through much of the new testament in one sitting.

createdtoworship · Oct 8, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
Well, let all glory and thanks be given to GOD (I should say).
All good, and or anything I know is from Him. So praise the name of the Lord indeed.

that is good, it is always good to glory in God. We would be nowhere without Him. Yet your words here on the forum support man boasting at least in part in His own salvation. You may have a broken spirit regarding your salvation and Give glory to God. But what you teach allows "boasting" when we believe part of our salvation relies on works, then when those works is performed there is boasting. We are not saved by works at all, in any form. There are two ways to heaven, one is by your own merit, the other is by Christ's merit. We forfeit the first way to heaven as soon as we are born and commit our first sin, only Christ can merit heaven. And He did so perfectly, and then died in our place so that His merit can then be transferred to us. That is the eternal aspect of salvation. That is one part of salvation, the other part of salvation is for not just eternal life, but "abundant life". That is when we repent of sins, and improve our lifes and become more like our Lord and savior. This takes a life long repentance, as we correct our thoughts one at a time, slowly through our life. It's truly a life long process. You have Justficiation, where God forgives all our sins past present and future, and you have sanctification where we are conformed into Christ's likeness in our life. Many people believe in Jesus quickly, but as soon as something hard happens, because they didnt' repent initially when saved, they are not equipped to repent when it becomes needed, and they fall away right away. The parable of the sewer is a good example of this in the bible. God bless, I think God is glorified in this conversation, so I will continue to monitor this thread.

I wish to post the verses I refer to in the above section:

Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,
to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith.

Romans 3:20-27

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
not of works, lest anyone should boast

Ephesians 2:8-9

Bible Highlighter · Oct 8, 2019

gradyll said:
you have verses that apply directly to the time and to the jews yes, but just because it was written for jews for example does not mean that we don't apply the same exact scripture in a long term fulfillment to the modern church. That is a very very faulty view of scripture. Very common in seminaries. But very very innacurate. I suggest you pray over this issue.

Notice how you are not offering any explanations with Scripture.
If you have an answer that refutes what I am saying with God's Word, I am open for you to share your view on this with the Bible. But just sharing your opinion on how you disagree and asking me to pray about it is not convincing for me. No offense of course, my friend.

Besides, do really think Paul was not fighting against "Circumcision Salvationism" and that he was not being guided to speak negatively against the Law and works as a result of this?

Lets just look at Scripture, shall we?

"Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace." (Galatians 5:4).

Sounds pretty ironclad. Paul must be talking about all Law here, right?

No. Most definitely not.

"I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing."
(Galatians 5:2).

Circumcision is a part of the OLD LAW and not the commands that come from Jesus and His followers.

We see Paul condemn circumcision for the Galatians. In fact, if they were to be circumcised, Christ would profit them nothing. Why? Because they thought that circumcision was for salvation. This is the false teaching being pushed by Jews upon Christians during this time period (See again: Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, and Acts of the Apostles 15:24).

Bible Highlighter · Oct 8, 2019

gradyll said:
sir you simply cannot say any verse that mentions we are saved by grace through faith, to apply only to Jews. He was comabatting a works mentality. "lest we could boast" the Bible says. See if God allows us to work for salvation, then when we get it, we will think we are better than others. And that is not the case, because we all have sin, none of us are perfect. Boasting is excluded in grace. But that does not mean we must not repent when we are saved. But repentance is not described as a work in the Bible. Again I have debated you before, and you have quoted websites that have influenced you, I recognize much of what you have said from earlier debates, so I fail to see how by just reading the bible you have come to these conclusions. Like I said I am on my third time through the scriptures myself, and when I formulated this gospel message in post one it was after reading through much of the new testament in one sitting.

Your not getting what I am trying to say. The Jews were trying to deceive Christians into following the Old Law or the whole of the Torah (i.e. the 613) and to be circumcised first in order to be initially saved. Please. Please read Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, and Acts of the Apostles 15:24 before replying back to me. Please read these verses very slowly and carefully.

Also, when you read Paul condemning the Law and works, look for the surrounding clues of what kind of Law Paul is talking about within the context. Is Paul talking about "all law" or is Paul talking about the Law of Moses? If Paul was talking about all Law, he would be contradicting the Bible. 1 John 3:23 says that believing in Jesus is a commandment. Surely Paul is not talking against this command. That would not make any kind of sense. Especially when Paul says if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (See: 1 Timothy 6:3-4).

Bible Highlighter · Oct 8, 2019

gradyll said:
We are not saved by works at all, in any form. There are two ways to heaven, one is by your own merit, the other is by Christ's merit.

We are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace through faith in Christ.
After we are saved by God's grace through faith (belief), our faith continues in the form of "works of faith" which is a continual access to the blood of Jesus cleansing us from all sin.

How so?

1 John 1:7.

This is the continuation of the imputation of Christ's sacrifice that many ignore today.

"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." (1 John 1:7).

So walking in the light is a part of the blood of Jesus cleansing us from all sin.

1 John 2:9-11 suggests that "walking in the light" is loving your brother. So we have to love our brother as a part of Christ's sacrifice to be continually applied upon our life. Belief in Christ is where faith starts, but faith continues in "works of faith." For faith without works is dead (James 2:17). A dead faith cannot save anyone. For even the demons believe and tremble (James 2:19); And James says he will show you his faith by his works (James 2:18). In fact, we are justified by works and not by faith alone (See: James 2:24).

Bible Highlighter · Oct 8, 2019

gradyll said:
Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,
to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith.

Romans 3:20-27

In Romans 3: Paul is referring to "Initial Salvation" ("Justification"), and not "Continued Salvation" ("Sanctification"). Paul is fighting against "Law Alone Salvationism" without God's grace through faith in Christ because he was fighting against the heresy of "Circumcision Salvationism": Hence, why Paul asks the question, "what profit is there in circumcision?" For in your view, why would Paul even mention this? Does not Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, and Acts of the Apostles 15:24 play a part in what Paul is saying in Romans 3:1?

Anyways, to address the text you quote, I decided to offer a commentary to it.
The words in brackets within blue and purple is my commentary to the text.

Romans chapter 3,
Verses 20-27

20 "Therefore by the deeds of the law [By works of the Law Alone without God's grace, the Torah or the 613 commands given to Israel] there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin [1 John 3:4 says the breaking of the law is sin. The Law of Moses did contain God's Eternal Moral Laws (like do not murder, do not steal, do not covet, etc.), which was sin before the written law was given to Moses. In addition, the breaking of the Moral Law (sin) also continues on beyond the Old Law that is no more and it continues on into the New Covenant; Note: But it is true, that we are not saved by "Law Alone" "or by the deeds of the Law Alone" without God's grace through faith in Christ. This is what Paul is saying here].

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets [Paul is referring to how to get initially right with GOD by faith in Christ and He is not referring to how all forms of Law will not play a part in our salvation at a later time (Which works in harmony later with God's grace); But it is true. In the Justification Process when a person receives Christ and His grace, this is not based at the heart on Law, but on God's grace through faith (a belief in Jesus Christ as our Savior; This is not in conflict with Sanctification or holy living by God working in us because it is a different aspect of salvation that follows being saved by God's grace through faith. But in itself, Justification or being saved by God's grace through faith is at the heart not based on works or the Law. it is the righteousness of God without the Law.];

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: [Salvation in Jesus by faith is for all people who believe. There is no difference whether one is a Jew or a Gentile. Verse 9 says, "...for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;" Which means they need a Savior to save them from their sin. it means all people need to accept Jesus as their Savior.].

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God [Again, verse 23 repeats man's sinfulness that was told to us in Romans 3:10; Hence, why men need to accept Jesus as their Savior. But Paul is not referring to the believer who is already walking with the Lord here. For if such were the case and the believer is sinning in the present tense, then the believer also has no understanding and he does not seek after GOD, either according to Romans 3:11. So naturally, Paul is referring to a time before we came to Christ and how we need Jesus so as to be saved from our sins].

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:[Being justified freely by his grace. Free like a gift. For by grace we have been saved, it is the free gift of God. But like all free gifts in life, gifts are received one time, and they come with certain responsibilities in keeping them].

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God [The faith in Christ's blood is to declare the remission of past sins; This is not present sins we are currently committing or future sins, but past sins that we have remission by. This means that salvation is not in just having a Belief Alone in Jesus our whole lives. Sure, this is where our faith starts, but it is not how faith remains or continues. For James says he will show you his faith by his works in James 2:18, and we see in Hebrews 11 that the faith by certain men of GOD led to them in doing works of faith. For would Noah be saved if he had just a "Belief Alone" and he did not take any action against the flood?];

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus [Notice here that Paul says "at this time" signifying that Justification or God's grace through faith in Christ here is an invitation one time event that starts the salvation process].

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith [Right. There is no boasting in the Law or by works in the Justification Process or when a person first accepts Jesus as their Savior. This would be by the Law of Faith; But nowhere does Paul say that even Sanctification by the Spirit (Holy living) is excluded later on. Paul is referring to how we receive Christ by faith (a belief) in Jesus. THe Law of Faith where there is no boasting in one's own efforts. Even in Sanctification there is no boasting in oneself. For if we obey the commands of Jesus as a part of Sanctification, it leaves no room to seek attention by others publically. For Jesus told us to not seek to pray so as to be seen by others, or to fast so as to be seen, or to give to the poor so as to be seen. So where is boasting then? It is only in the Lord. For the true believer realizes that any or all good is GOD working through them. On their own without GOD, they cannot do any true good that is without selfish motive.]."

Bible Highlighter · Oct 9, 2019

gradyll said:
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
not of works, lest anyone

Ephesians 2:8-9

In regards to Ephesians 2:8-9. I already address this passage for you within this thread before. Please see post #26.

Anyways, blessings be unto you from the Lord Jesus Christ;
And may you please be well.

klutedavid · Oct 9, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
Notice how you are not offering any explanations with Scripture.
If you have an answer that refutes what I am saying with God's Word, I am open for you to share your view on this with the Bible. But just sharing your opinion on how you disagree and asking me to pray about it is not convincing for me. No offense of course, my friend.

Besides, do really think Paul was not fighting against "Circumcision Salvationism" and that he was not being guided to speak negatively against the Law and works as a result of this?

Lets just look at Scripture, shall we?

"Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace." (Galatians 5:4).

Sounds pretty ironclad. Paul must be talking about all Law here, right?

No. Most definitely not.

"I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing."
(Galatians 5:2).

Circumcision is a part of the OLD LAW and not the commands that come from Jesus and His followers.

We see Paul condemn circumcision for the Galatians. In fact, if they were to be circumcised, Christ would profit them nothing. Why? Because they thought that circumcision was for salvation. This is the false teaching being pushed by Jews upon Christians during this time period (See again: Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, and Acts of the Apostles 15:24).

I think you misunderstand what circumcision meant in the context of the new Testament.

Simply put, circumcision is the law. If you are circumcised then you are most definitely under the law.

We see that in Acts 15 this question was raised but we also notice a few lines later. That circumcision and obedience to the law of Moses formed the question that the disciples had to answer.

Their reply was straight forward and in a nutshell, the Gentiles were never under the law and never will be.

Bible Highlighter · Oct 9, 2019

klutedavid said:
I think you misunderstand what circumcision meant in the context of the new Testament.

Simply put, circumcision is the law. If you are circumcised then you are most definitely under the law.

We see that in Acts 15 this question was raised but we also notice a few lines later. That circumcision and obedience to the law of Moses formed the question that the disciples had to answer.

Their reply was straight forward and in a nutshell, the Gentiles were never under the law and never will be.

I never said we are under "circumcision" or the Old Covenant Law given to Moses (i.e. the 613 laws as a whole given to Israel). In fact, my whole argument is about how the Old Law or deeds is no longer binding for believers in the NT. However, Paul was not referring to God's Eternal Moral Laws (like do not murder, do not steal, do not covet, etc.) that existed after the Adam and Eve received the knowledge of good and evil and which still exist today under the New Covenant. Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. This means we are under a New Covenant with New Commands. See my signature to learn more.

createdtoworship · Oct 9, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
Notice how you are not offering any explanations with Scripture.
If you have an answer that refutes what I am saying with God's Word, I am open for you to share your view on this with the Bible. But just sharing your opinion on how you disagree and asking me to pray about it is not convincing for me. No offense of course, my friend.

Besides, do really think Paul was not fighting against "Circumcision Salvationism" and that he was not being guided to speak negatively against the Law and works as a result of this?

Lets just look at Scripture, shall we?

"Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace." (Galatians 5:4).

Sounds pretty ironclad. Paul must be talking about all Law here, right?

No. Most definitely not.

"I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing."
(Galatians 5:2).

Circumcision is a part of the OLD LAW and not the commands that come from Jesus and His followers.

We see Paul condemn circumcision for the Galatians. In fact, if they were to be circumcised, Christ would profit them nothing. Why? Because they thought that circumcision was for salvation. This is the false teaching being pushed by Jews upon Christians during this time period (See again: Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, and Acts of the Apostles 15:24).

Ok lets talk about the context here first. I believe we are saved by repenting and trusting in Christ. It's by grace not of works, lest we can boast (ephesians 2:9), you believe that we are saved by faith in Christ plus works (I left out grace because grace and works are mutually exclusive soteriologically speaking). Now remember at this point your gospel message is very similar to that of Jehovah's witnesses. Mormons add a few more cardinal rules to it, but your gospel message is also similar to their gospel presentation. Both christian cults believe you are saved by faith, AND works. See we are not saved by Faith AND works, james says we are saved by a faith THAT works. If we have a true faith it will work. But no where in the Bible does it say that those works somehow merit eternal life, that is so so completely wrong, I don't know where to start. Anyway, here is a small quote I read today: When the Gospel has conditions attached to it, it is no longer good news ..." That rings true to me. I don't know about you.

I think the confusion here is a lack in basic hermeneutics, it's ok. We all have our strengths and weakness, my weakness is my temper and my lack of a good memory for example. And sometimes pride. But those things I am working on with the Lord. But taking a word "say law" and applying it only to circumcision breaks basic rules of hermeneutics. Let me explain how other groups have also broken basic laws of hermeneutics and hopefully you can then see this error in your own reasoning....Hyper dispensationalists apply huge portions of the beatitudes to one group of people instead of the church through the ages(they believe the beatitudes applies only to the millenial reign for example). (I am a dispensationalist btw, not all of it is bad), secondly you have replacement theologians who take all the verses of the old testament that talk about the promises of Israel, and apply them to the church. Which as I will explain with near and far fulfillment, that this too is a violation of hermeneutical laws. Thirdly you have yourself who believes that because they were talking about circumcision in one verse that that means that in the previous verse it must be limited to only circumcision. See circumcision was the example given. But no where in that verse or any other does it say that law in the Bible only refers to circumcision. That is an example of a law yes, but not the only example. Every post so far that I have posted, I use verses in it, and none of those verses have been refuted by yourself, you don't even copy them into your post. I guess this merits a short lesson on hermeneutics. I know you said that you only read the Bible and no other books so this may be a new lesson for you. See in most good hermeneutics classes you have studies in prophecy. And many prophecies in the old testament, have a near fulfillment and a far fulfillment. This has also been called the "dual fulfillment of prophecy" see more here: Dual fulfillment - Wikipedia

Most people when reading the Bible will only think about the near fulfillments of passages, this is one problem you may have just reading through the Bible, unless you have cross reference tools, topic bible analysis etc, you may not be thinking about all the passages in the Bible on a topic such as "law." I could post from nave's topical Bible on law, but that would not convince you. I simply suggest that in the passage you are talking about that circumcision is an example of law, (sort of like a near fulfillment of a prophecy if you would), but it's not the far fulfillment of that passage. That passage refers to all law soteriologically. When I read the Bible and I go across john 3:16, "for God so loved the world that He gave His one and only son..." The near fulfillment or immediate interpretation of that passage, (the context if you would) is the jewish world, and the gentile world in existence when the Bible was written. If we only limited our hermeneutics to the immediate interpretation of that passage, no one could be saved, and most of the Bible would only apply to localized jewish congregations and gentile converts of the first century. God's love in john 3:16, didn't just mean the Jews or gentiles in the context of the passage, but everyone who would ever come to be. So we must also include far fulfillment of prophecy, and also include all audiences and implications of verses not just the jews for example. I hope this makes sense to you. I don't expect this to convince you, however I pray that some others that are reading this forum, will be convinced by this explanation, as I am fearful that your sort of theology of works based righteousness is not different than other christian cults.

createdtoworship · Oct 9, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
So what about Ephesians 2:8-9?

I believe in part that this is referring to "Initial Salvation" because Ephesians 2:1 refers to how we have been quickened by Christ (Which is a one time event). Ephesians 2:8 talks about how we receive this grace like a gift. Gifts are received generally one time and they are not are given again, and again. So this is referring to "Initial Salvation." Paul is also condemning "Works Alone Salvationism without God's grace through faith in Christ."

Ephesians 2:9 refers to "Man Directed Works Alone Salvationism" because it refers to the kind of work that a man would boast in himself in doing for all to see. There are some Works Salvationists I have encountered on rare occasion who downplay God's grace and or act like it is nonexistent almost and they focus on Works as their primary method of salvation. This is Man Directed Works Alone Salvationism and this is wrong. We are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace. For if a believer sins, do they do a good work to get clean again? No. They go to God's grace by confessing their sins to Jesus to be forgiven again (See 1 John 1:9, and 1 John 2:1).

Ephesians 2:10 switches gears and talks about a completely different kind of work that is mentioned in Ephesians 2:9. Verse 10 (Ephesians 2:10) is a God directed work done through the believer by the power of GOD working in them. The fruit of the tree working in the believer is the LORD. For Ephesians 2:10 says that we are created unto Christ Jesus for good works. We can only do good by God working through us. So these are the kind of works that are of GOD. These are the kind of works that we would give praise to the Lord. So if we find ourselves doing good, we give Him the praise and glory, and thanks, and we do not look for the praise of others (So as to boast in ourselves). Ephesians 2:10 gives us the proper order of works, too. These good works (Sanctification by GOD) always follow after we are saved by God's grace and NEVER by Man Directed Works Alone Salvationism (Ephesians 2:9) that attempts to deny God's grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8).

A person can tell the difference between the works that one would boast in themselves like in Ephesians 2:9, vs. the man of GOD who humbly and quietly obeys God even when others are not looking. The man of GOD gives praise to GOD in any good that they appear to do, and not themselves. These are the good works God calls us to do. For they are created unto Christ Jesus for good works (Ephesians 2:10).

Verse 9 is the guy who looks in a mirror and says, "Hey everybody! Come see how good I look!"

Verse 10 is the guy who truly and honestly gives praise to the LORD for the good that GOD does in their life.

So works do save.

But it is the work of the LORD and not men.
We are saved both in Justification and in Sanctification by GOD and His work.
All praise, boasting, and glory goes to GOD and not ourselves.

In conclusion:

I believe Paul is saying that we are saved by God's grace through faith and not by Works Alone Salvationism that attempts to deny God's grace through faith. Paul is not denying the necessity of works of faith that follow God's saving grace through faith. Paul says you can deny God by a lack of works (See: Titus 1:16). In other words, it is important to understand what KIND of works Paul condemns (When he speaks of such things).

again romans 4 contradicts what you are saying. Romans four says you can have faith without works and still be saved. I posted it a few times already, in bright bold green letters in as large a font as the forum would let me, yet no response. Now at this point you may say, that I contradict james, and I don't because repentance is not a work. God wants repentance in our lives as christians, not works. I hope you see this crucial difference. Here is a blog post I found online, I don't have much time to debate here unfortunately, but hopefully it will answer some of the questions: I agree with most of it, but also believe that trusting in Christ means repenting of idolatry, in whatever form that means. Here is the post:

"What is Works Righteousness?

Works righteousness is a form of self-righteousness that believes that our salvation can be earned and/or sustained by doing good works. It says we can make ourselves righteous before God by our obedience.

This is epitomized in the New Testament by the Pharisees for whom Jesus reserved his harshest criticism, calling them whitewashed tombs and hypocrites.

The Bible makes it clear that salvation comes through unmerited grace. It does not come because of our works, but because of the work of Jesus Christ on our behalf.

In an attempt to avoid the dangers of works righteousness, many evangelicals go to the other extreme, something theologians call antinomianism. This doctrine argues that if God forgives sins, what is the disadvantage in sinning, or the reward of obedience? If obedience to God’s laws does not save me, it’s just not that important.

I call this the “bus ticket to heaven syndrome”: my salvation is my ticket to heaven, and what I do here while I wait for the bus, good or bad, doesn’t matter.

The Gospel of Grace
Neither works righteousness nor antinomianism represent the gospel of grace taught in the Bible.

Tim Keller explains the difference between these views in this way:

Religion says, “I obey – therefore I’m accepted.” The Gospel says, “I’m accepted – therefore I obey.”

Our obedience to God is critically important. It flows out of our love and gratitude toward God for what he has done on our behalf through Christ.

True Christianity has always maintained that faith necessarily expresses itself in action. During the Protestant Reformation, Martin Luther and John Calvin taught that while good works could not in any way merit salvation, they did prove the genuineness of the individual’s faith.

We are saved by faith alone, but the faith that saves us will never be alone. It will always be accompanied by good works.

These good works are not just what we do at church or acts of evangelism. They should encompass all the work we do, whether it is in our churches, our communities, our families, or our vocations."

above quote from:
https://tifwe.org/faith-and-work-vs-works-righteousness/

I see the same soteriology from many people going door to door, God give us grace initially in salvation but we must work to keep it. However if you study sanctification you see that even sanctification is by faith:

‘to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’ Acts 26:18 NKJV

createdtoworship · Oct 9, 2019

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createdtoworship · Oct 9, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
While we are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace through faith in Christ, we also need works of faith to be saved because the unprofitable servant was cast into outer darkness (Matthew 25:30), and Paul says you can deny God by a lack of works (Titus 1:16). Besides, 1 John 1:7 gives us the true imputation of Christ's sacrifice. It says if we walk in the light as He (GOD) is in the light, the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin.

God's grace cleanses us of our past sin, and walking in the light (loving your brother - see 1 John 2:9-11), is the Sanctification process whereby the blood of Jesus continually cleanses us of all sin. Meaning, we put to death the deeds of the body (sin) out of our lives by the Spirit, and we will live eternally (Romans 8:13). For God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness, and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world (Titus 2:11-12). God's grace is not a license for immorality (Which is what believing in the finished work of Christ suggests) (See: Jude 1:4).

Bible Highlighter said:
There was no option in the poll for: "Salvation = God's grace through faith + Works faith (and or holy living)." So I did not vote in the poll, my friend.

In any event, I used to believe in a similar way. I used to believe that sin can separate you from GOD but works in no way saved. But I realized in time that this was a contradictory belief (not only logically but also Scripturally). You cannot live holy without there being some kind of work on your end. There are not only passive commands that we must obey in the New Testament (or New Covenant) (so as not to sin), but there are also proactive commands that we must obey as a part of eternal life, as well (so as not to sin, too). For example: Jesus agreed with the lawyer on the truth that we must love God and love our neighbor as a part of eternal life (Luke 10:25-28). Jesus did not correct the lawyer and tell him to just believe in the finished work of Christ alone and not worry about sin (or in loving God, and others). On the contrary, Jesus said, "Do this and you will live." (Luke 10:28). Loving your neighbor is helping the poor or the beat up looking poor guy on the side of the road (See the Parable of the Good Samaritan - Luke 10:29-37). This is why we read in Matthew 25:31-46 that those who did not help the poor were told to go away into everlasting punishment. Luke 9:62 implies that we must preach the gospel, otherwise we are not worthy for the Kingdom of God. Again, it would come back to love. Do we love our neighbor enough to tell them the good news of Jesus Christ? If we really cared about them, we would do so. Please take note that I am even preaching to myself here. For I am not above what God's Word says. We can also do more in loving others around us. Truly loving them and not just yelling at them in anger to get right with GOD. We must truly love them (Which is only possible by the power of GOD).

So then, what was Paul talking about in regards to works or the Law?

Paul was fighting against "Circumcision Salvationism" (Which is Law Alone Salvationism involving the 613 laws within the Law of Moses without God's grace); A certain sect of Jews were trying to deceive some Christians into thinking they had to first be circumcised in order to be saved. This was a heresy that was clearly addressed at the Jerusalem council (See Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:24). Paul also addressed this problem; Paul said to the Galatians that if you seek to be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing (Galatians 5:2), and then Paul mentions how if you seek to be justified by the Law, you have fallen from grace (Galatians 5:4). This "law" is the Torah because circumcision is not a part of the commands given to us by Jesus and His followers. Paul was NOT speaking against how we must obey the commands of Jesus and His followers under the New Covenant or New Testament. For Paul says in 1 Timothy 6:3-4 that if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus, and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing. James 4:6 says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble.

We are not saved by works, that is for sure. There are over a 100 verses in the Bible the mention donating 50% of our assets to the poor, cutting off our hands, gouging out our eyes, etc.

"43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: 48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt. 50 Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another. -Mark 9:43-50

There are way more commands than just the ten commandments, loving enemies, forgiving people who have hurt you, or you have no forgiveness yourself. I have dozens more laws that we must follow to be saved under the new covenant (not the old). Here they are:
LORDSHIP-INDEX-–UPDATE-5.doc.docx

Now again, please explain salvation in light of those verses. Are we truly saved by doing all those things? Or did Jesus not really mean what He said, and if He didn't really mean what He said, was He lying, or deceiving or both? Now at this point, granted you have actually read the document above (if you haven't do it now), at this point you should be broken, and realize. "Who can be saved?" No one can do all of those laws, and commands and be saved. And that is the proper take on the matter. That means that the law has done it's job. See the law is the school master to bring us to Christ. That is it's only purpose. Once we realize that we cannot do those things, the old testament law of moses, the ten commands, or the new testament laws and commands, none of them can we do...... we realize that salvation must not be on our own merit. It's a free gift. The other thing that I conclude when I read those passages, is that you cannot simply believe in Jesus's existence and be saved. Satan believes in Jesus's existence. Satan believes in the resurrection of Christ, Satan believes in the diety of Christ, and the Trinity. Satan in fact has perfect soteriology, end times theories, and theology. Yet he is not saved. So what does it make us if we simply believe Jesus existed ourselves? It makes us twice the sons of hell. That is if we don't really want christianity for it's true purpose. Christianity is not to make us saved merely. To sit on a cloud with a harp. But it is to understand and know God for who He really is, to see Him in His glory one day, and to love Him for all He is worth. For only He is worthy to break the seal. Salvation is to bring us victory over our sin, now, here in this life. Then in that victory we can testify of God's power to others. Thus incorporating eternal rewards for our honest witness and testimony. But to simply say, hey that crusade was awesome, I prayed the prayer, got the Bible, now lets snort some lines. That is not Christianity. Christianity is leaving the old stuff behind. You are forgiven of your sin, past, present and future. Now go and sin no more. You are not saved by works at this point, if you believe that, go read the lordship index again (right now), then come back. Now have you performed a donation of 50% of your assets to the poor? As required in the gospels? Have you forgiven everyone who ever cut you off, cursed you our, broke up with you, divorced you, or unfriended you? As the gospels require? Have you cut out your eyes, when you browse that girls profile on instagram? If you haven't you are not doing it right. Those are literal God's honest commands in the Bible. Now if you are not eyeless, houseless, and forgiving....then you are not doing the works righteousness correctly. You need to reread the gospels. See remember when I went through a nervous breakdown, I read all the gospels backward and forward, and highlighted every law and command in blue. And highlighted every free grace verse in green. There was 15 verses about grace through faith, and over 100 on repenting of sin and believing in Jesus. Yes we won't do it perfectly, but we are still required to repent of our sins. Now if you think repentance is a work, go back and re read all those commands of the new testament. loving your enemy, donating to the poor, one guy had to give everything he owned to the poor, and follow Jesus. Why did he have to do that and no one else? Think about it that way. Because we are required to sacrifice. But that sacrifice has no merit in itself. It's is God's work in our life. That is why in romans 4:5 it says " But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness," And ephesians 2:8-9 says :"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast."

Bible Highlighter · Oct 9, 2019

gradyll said:
Ok lets talk about the context here first. I believe we are saved by repenting and trusting in Christ.

Well, first, your post here offers no context for Galatians 5:2, and Galatians 5:4 (Which are the verses I was originally talking about).

Second, You define "repentance" as turning away from sin. The problem with your view of repentance here is that you don't realize that turning away from sin is an action of some kind or something that you do. Any effort of any kind you do for GOD is a work. So you are asserting that works save on some level, but you don't want to see it.

James says,
"Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him." (James 1:12).

James says we have to endure temptation in order to receive the crown of life. This applies to me, just as much as it applies to every other believer. It is something I actively have to always continue to work at, just as all other believer should work at doing so as to receive the crown of life (salvation).

Yet, you believe the carnal Christian is automatically saved even if they do not endure temptation. For you said in another thread that the carnal Christian is saved by God's grace (See this post here). This means that you believe that a believer can sin and still be saved. So when you talk of repentance it really doesn't mean anything or have any kind of real merit.

True repentance is seeking forgiveness with the Lord Jesus Christ, and the natural fruits of repentance is good deeds and holy living. If good deeds and holy living is not present, then one is just paying lip service to GOD and they are not really sorry about their sins towards Him. For example: If a man cheats on his wife and he just says he is sorry to her and he does not stop cheating on her, then he is not really sorry and she will most likely divorce or leave him because he is being unfaithful in the marriage. It is the same with GOD. If a person is disloyal to GOD, then they are going to reap what they sow (Disloyalty or rebellion against GOD leads to destruction). For it was a lack of obedience to God's command that led to the mess that mankind is now in.

You said:
It's by grace not of works, lest we can boast (ephesians 2:9), you believe that we are saved by faith in Christ plus works (I left out grace because grace and works are mutually exclusive soteriologically speaking).

But that's not what I believe the Bible teaches. The Bible teaches that there are two different kinds of works of GOD in the salvation process. The 1st work of God is God's grace (which says we access by faith in Christ without works), and the 2nd work of God is the work of Sanctification so as to make us holy.

In regards to the 1st work of God (God's grace through faith in Christ): It is appropriately called "a work of God" because Jesus calls believing in Him the work of God in John 6:28-29; However, while Jesus labels this as a work of God that we must do, at the heart, God grace through faith is not based on works but on grace and faith because when a person first accepts Jesus as their Savior, and they believe in His death and resurrection on their behalf, and they seek forgiveness with Him, it involves His grace, mercy, and redemption (and not the following of the whole of the Law in order to be made righteous with GOD). In that moment of time when they call upon the name of the Lord to be saved and they are forgiven of their past sin, it does not involve a major effort on their part (works) but it involves God's grace through faith (belief) in Christ. Paul relates Ephesians 2:8-9 with accepting Christ. For in Ephesians 2:1, he said that we have been quickened. Being quickened is a one time event. Paul says that being saved by God's grace is like a gift. The receiving of a gift happens one time. Ephesians 3:17, Paul tells his readers that Christ may dwell in their hearts by faith. This is a one time event. So Paul is referring to "Initial Salvation" here.

In regards to the 2nd work of God (The work of God done through us in the Sanctification Process): This always follows God's grace. These two works are not in conflict with each other but they work in harmony together (See: Ephesians 5:25-27, Titus 2:11-12) (Romans 5:21). In fact, 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says GOD has chosen us to salvation through: (a) Belief in the truth, and (b) By the Sanctification of the Spirit.

You said:
Now remember at this point your gospel message is very similar to that of Jehovah's witnesses. Mormons add a few more cardinal rules to it, but your gospel message is also similar to their gospel presentation. Both christian cults believe you are saved by faith, AND works. See we are not saved by Faith AND works,

A blind squirrel can even stumble upon a nut every once in a while. Catholics believe in the Trinity, that does not mean I am Catholic just because I believe in the Trinity. Nor does it mean the Trinity is not true just because Catholics teach it.

I see "Belief Alone-ism" as similar to what the Jews believed. They believed that just because they were sons of Abraham, that they were in favor by GOD (i.e. saved).

For John the Baptist condemned them for their boasting that Abraham was their father vs. bringing forth deeds (fruit) befitting of repentance (after they sought forgiveness with God).

7 "But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father [i.e. Belief Alone-ism]: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire." (Matthew 3:7-10).

Jesus said to the Jews who said "Abraham is our father,"

"If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham." (John 8:39).

It is the same song I hear today. "I am a child of GOD because I believe in the finished work of the cross or I have a belief alone on Jesus." But if Jesus was physically among the churches of today (hypothetically speaking), it is quite possible that Jesus would say (something along the lines) to the churches today who boast in such phrases, "if you are a child of GOD, you would do the works of a child of GOD." For 1 John 3:10 says, "In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."

Anyways, I am going to stop here because the post is getting too long as it is. I will try to reply to the rest of what you had written as time allows.

Blessings to you in the Lord (even though we disagree strongly on what the Bible says in regards to Soteriology).

Is salvation by grace alone? Or faith alone? Or grace through faith? or by faith plus repentance?

How are we saved.

salvation by grace alone (sola gracia)

salvation by faith alone (sola fide)

salvation by grace through faith

Saved by turning from our sins and trusting in Christ's salvation

saved by works, merit, obedience, performance morally speaking, plus faith

saved by works of the law, plus faith

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

He’s a Way of life

He’s a Way of life

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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