Is salvation by grace alone? Or faith alone? Or grace through faith? or by faith plus repentance?

How are we saved.

  • saved by works, merit, obedience, performance morally speaking, plus faith

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • saved by works of the law, plus faith

    Votes: 0 0.0%

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createdtoworship

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Catholic stuff, for the win!

CT06

Trent. Good stuff in there.
the catholic catechism, endorsed by pope, mentions seven sacraments to be saved as well. It is those sacraments that would be a works based righteousness that luther protested. Every catholic I interview on the street does not know about Christ's finished work. It is because of these seven sacraments that confuse them, one is confession, one is mass, one is communion, one is marriage....if one does not do all of those things they do not have security in their salvation.
 
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createdtoworship

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@gradyll

Also, Paul says that if you love your neighbor (Which is a work), then you will fulfill the Moral aspect of the Old Law (like: Do not steal, do not kill, do not covet, etc.). You believe in not killing, stealing, coveting, etc. as a part of eternal life (i.e. staying away from sin), but Paul here is saying that by loving your neighbor (Which is a work) you will automatically obey these other commands (See: Romans 13:8-10).
yes he would be right, but only because of this...if you are truly loving your enemy, you won't kill them, steal from them etc. Would you? I don't think so. So yes love is a fulfillment of the old law, but even a fulfillment of the new law. Loving one another in my opinion is not a work, I am not loving my enemy because in doing so I merit eternal life, I love them because they are created in God's image just like me, everyone is fighting unique battles, if we were in their shoes, we may be doing the same thing they are. So it's important to reverse roles, and try to see things the way they see them, in many ways this answers a lot of questions. As far as james, can you have a faith without works, I don't believe so. But we must interpret that verse according to at least 15 other gospel messages in the Bible that mention faith without works in the message. A gospel of grace through faith, plus repentance.

"But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works: “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered; Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin.” Romans 4:5-8 NKJV

note that romans was the book that convinced martin luther that we were not saved by works, but by faith alone (plus repentance). Luther however is not our example anyway, the scriptures are, and the above scriptures clearly teach works has no part in salvation.
 
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they are works only if you are doing them to be saved. To me, I can do the exact same action and it's not a work, because God tests the heart and motive. I am not doing the work to be saved, I am doing the work for eternal rewards. I don't think you will agree and that is ok. Rarely in ten years have I convinced people on this forum regarding theology. People go into a talk with the one simple motive of converting someone else and not listening completely. I know because I do that too. But that is why we need to step aside from things our pastor, or a website or a book, or a theologian said, and go with what is actually in the word of God itself. Does that make sense? Now back to the original motive for this thread, it was not to debate with you about the peripherals. I posted this thread to encourage a dead church to start living for God. So if you are a christian and you are lacking power in your life, keep reading. I will post it in the next post.

Well, I actually believe the way I do because it is from the Word of GOD (the Bible), and I discovered it runs contrary to the popular belief of Soteriology here in America. I am a Sola Scriptura Trinitarian non-denominational Christian. Most of your Trinitarian Sola Scriptura churches here in the States believes in a form of Belief Alone-ism and or Eternal Security (Which means a person can sin and still be saved on some level; Note: You can also sin by not doing certain works for GOD, see: Luke 10:25-28, Matthew 25:31-46, Luke 9:62, Matthew 16:24-25). This is why you are not able to answer me concerning simple verses like 1 John 1:7, Titus 1:16, and Hebrews 12:14, etc.; But if living for GOD is not a requirement for salvation, then why will folks take heed to your words? They are optional. Why do that which is not really required as a part of being in God's kingdom? Jesus tells me to enter the narrow way. But if I do a search for Trinitarian Sola Scriptura churches in my area, pretty much all believe as you do when it comes to Soteriology. So I believe they are leaning on what men have taught them from a Bible college, and they did not study His Word on their own in prayer with GOD (like I have done).

Side Note:

Oh, and yes. You did not address my point involving Scripture before about "Circumcision Salvationism" which helps to explain why Paul condemned the Law and works (when he spoke generically of such things). Again, I encourage you to read Galatians 2:3, Galatians 5:2, Romans 3:1, and then read Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, and Acts of the Apostles 15:24. If you do this, it will begin to be clear on what kind of "Law" or what kind of "works" Paul is referring to and what he was trying to condemn. For like every other church out there, you believe Paul was referring to every kind of work or that Paul was referring to the Law in general (When in reality Paul was condemning the Law of Moses as a whole, i.e. the 613 commands). Think. The Jews followed the Torah, and they did not follow the commands of Jesus Christ. This is why the early church ran into problems with the Jews; For the Jews were trying to deceive Christians into thinking they had to be circumcised to be saved, etc.; But somehow you think Paul was speaking against the Moral Law as a part of eternal life. But Paul was not speaking contrary to the words of Jesus and the doctrine according to godliness (See: 1 Timothy 6:3-4).
 
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createdtoworship

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Well, I actually believe the way I do because it is from the Word of GOD (the Bible), and I discovered it runs contrary to the popular belief of Soteriology here in America. I am a Sola Scriptura Trinitarian non-denominational Christian. Most of your Trinitarian Sola Scriptura churches here in the States believes in a form of Belief Alone-ism and or Eternal Security (Which means a person can sin and still be saved on some level; Note: You can also sin by not doing certain things for GOD, see: Luke 10:25-28, Matthew 25:31-46, Luke 9:62, Matthew 16:24-25). This is why you are not able to answer me concerning simple verses like 1 John 1:7, Titus 1:16, and Hebrews 12:14, etc.; But if living for GOD is not a requirement for salvation, then why will folks take heed your words? They are optional. Why do that which is not really required as a part of being in God's kingdom? Jesus tells me to enter the narrow way. But if I do a search for Trinitarian Sola Scriptura churches in my area, pretty much all believe as you do. So I believe they are leaning on what men have taught them from a Bible college, and they did not study His Word on their own in prayer with GOD (like I have done).

Side Note:

Oh, and yes. You did not address my point involving Scripture before about "Circumcision Salvationism" which helps to explain why Paul condemned the Law and works (when he spoke generically of such things). Again, I encourage you to read Galatians 2:3, Galatians 5:2, Romans 3:1, and then read Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, and Acts of the Apostles 15:24. If you do this, it will begin to be clear on what kind of "Law" or what kind of "works" Paul is referring to and what he was trying to condemn. For like every other church out there, you believe Paul was referring to every kind of work or that Paul was referring to the Law in general (When in reality Paul was condemning the Law of Moses as a whole, i.e. the 613 commands). Think. The Jews followed the Torah, and they did not follow the commands of Jesus Christ. This is why they ran into problems with them in their trying to deceive Christians into thinking they had to be circumcised to be saved, etc. Paul was not speaking contrary to the words of Jesus and the doctrine according to godliness (See: 1 Timothy 6:3-4).
yes sir, please explain how in light of romans 4, you can believe we are saved by works.

"But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works: “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered; Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin.” Romans 4:5-8 NKJV

note that romans was the book that convinced martin luther that we were not saved by works, but by faith alone (plus repentance). Luther however is not our example anyway, the scriptures are, and the above scriptures clearly teach works has no part in salvation.
 
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createdtoworship

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Salvation is by staying in faith and avoiding sin if we sin we need to repent and ask the Lord to cover our sin with his holy blood.

Jesus is our Savior and example into obedience unto the dead, what an example we have read the book of Revelation only he the lamb of God is worthy to open the book.

Some verses to consider,

Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.
I Corinthians 3:16‭-‬17

Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
I Corinthians 6:9‭-‬11

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
Galatians 5:22‭-‬24

Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says: “Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, In the day of trial in the wilderness, Where your fathers tested Me, tried Me, And saw My works forty years. Therefore I was angry with that generation, And said, ‘They always go astray in their heart, And they have not known My ways.’ So I swore in My wrath, ‘They shall not enter My rest.’ ” Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, while it is said: “Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.” For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt, led by Moses? Now with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness? And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
Hebrews 3:7‭-‬19

Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.
I John 3:7‭-‬8
good post, we just need also to differentiate between salvic repentance and works, just like the scriptures do.
 
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they are works only if you are doing them to be saved. To me, I can do the exact same action and it's not a work, because God tests the heart and motive. I am not doing the work to be saved, I am doing the work for eternal rewards. I don't think you will agree and that is ok. Rarely in ten years have I convinced people on this forum regarding theology. People go into a talk with the one simple motive of converting someone else and not listening completely. I know because I do that too. But that is why we need to step aside from things our pastor, or a website or a book, or a theologian said, and go with what is actually in the word of God itself. Does that make sense? Now back to the original motive for this thread, it was not to debate with you about the peripherals. I posted this thread to encourage a dead church to start living for God. So if you are a christian and you are lacking power in your life, keep reading. I will post it in the next post.

So you believe that when a Christian chooses to not break God's Moral Laws like "Do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not covet, etc," they are not doing so as a form of salvation? Jesus says if you will enter into life, keep the commandments and then he listed the Moral Law that I just mentioned (See: Matthew 19:17-19). So is Jesus teaching that we are saved by keeping the Law? Did not Paul say that if we seek to be justified by the Law, we have fallen from grace? Galatians 5:4. But again, context tells us that Paul was fighting against "Circumcision Salvationism." For Paul says to the Galatians that if you seek to be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. Circumcision was a part of the Old Law and it is not a part of the laws or commands given to us by Jesus and His followers.
 
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yes sir, please explain how in light of romans 4, you can believe we are saved by works.

"But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works: “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered; Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin.” Romans 4:5-8 NKJV

note that romans was the book that convinced martin luther that we were not saved by works, but by faith alone (plus repentance). Luther however is not our example anyway, the scriptures are, and the above scriptures clearly teach works has no part in salvation.

Again, you fail to understand that Paul was fighting against "Circumcision Salvationism," Which was a heresy at the time put forth by the Jews to deceive Christians into thinking they had to first be circumcised in order to be saved vs. accepting Christ and His grace by faith (and in seeking his forgiveness along with believing in his death and resurrection).

Romans 3:1. Context.

Paul hints at fighting against this heresy by saying,

"What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?" (Romans 3:1).

Think. If a person is seeking to be saved by circumcision as the basis for their salvation, they are putting a work and not God's grace as the foundation of their faith. Hence, why Paul was speaking in the way that he did. He was condemning "Law Alone Salvationism" (without God's grace) because he was fighting against "Circumcision Salvationism."
 
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yes sir, please explain how in light of romans 4, you can believe we are saved by works.

"But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works: “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered; Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin.” Romans 4:5-8 NKJV

note that romans was the book that convinced martin luther that we were not saved by works, but by faith alone (plus repentance). Luther however is not our example anyway, the scriptures are, and the above scriptures clearly teach works has no part in salvation.

To him that works his reward is not of grace but it is of debt as if it was some kind of obligation like at a job whereby he works so as to earn money.

"Now to a laborer, his wages are not counted as a favor or a gift, but as an obligation (something owed to him)." (Romans 4:4) (AMPC).​

So yes. I agree. Works Alone or trading dollars for hours like at a job involving salvation is wrong. Works Alone Salvationism (Circumcision Salvationism) is wrong because one has no grace or rest ever. This would purely be a works based system of salvation with no grace or mercy (like with Christ) if one messes up. A person’s good deeds have to outweigh their bad deeds.

But this is not the same thing as "Works of Responsibility in Owning a Free Gift."

I believe God's grace is a free gift as Scripture says (Ephesians 2:8). Gifts are received, and then we do works of responsibility to take care of those gifts.

Let me give you an example:

If Rick received a car as a free gift from his dad, does that mean he can run red lights, drive drunk, and hit pedestrians? No. If he were to do that, he would not have his gift for very long. Now, was his car any less a free gift because he had to do works of responsibility in possessing his free gift? No. Did Rick have to work at a job and get a loan to buy this car? No. It was a free gift from his dad.

So working like at a job (trading dollars for hours) is not the same as doing "Works of responsibility in owning a free gift." Paul is not talking about responsibility in possessing Jesus Christ (Who is our gift). Paul is talking about trying to earn your salvation by a system of "Works Salvationism Alone" that did not include God's grace at all.
 
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yes sir, please explain how in light of romans 4, you can believe we are saved by works.

"But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works: “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered; Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin.” Romans 4:5-8 NKJV

note that romans was the book that convinced martin luther that we were not saved by works, but by faith alone (plus repentance). Luther however is not our example anyway, the scriptures are, and the above scriptures clearly teach works has no part in salvation.

Paul is referring to "Initial Salvationism" and or in how we are "Ultimately Saved."
Paul is talking about the Justification Process and he is not referring to the Sanctification Process (Which is the next step or stage in the salvation process). How so? Paul uses Abraham as an example. Abraham believed GOD and it was accounted to him as righteousness. But we also see GOD bless Abraham and his descendants at a later time on the account of his obedience to GOD by offering up his son Isaac. In fact, faith is what leads to works (See: Hebrews 11). James says he will show you his faith by his works (James 2:18). For a faith without works is dead (James 2:17).

Circumcision Salvationism (the heresy that said that you had to be initially saved by being circumcised and in following the Old Law was addressed at the Jerusalem council).

JERUSALEM COUNCIL:

"And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved." (Acts of the Apostles 15:1).

PAUL:

"Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing." (Galatians 5:2).

In other words, Paul was fighting against the same heresy that was addressed at the Jerusalem council. For if a person thinks they have to FIRST be saved by being circumcised they are making the LAW the basis and FOUNDATION of their faith, and not God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ. This is what Paul was fighting against. But folks think Paul was referring to all forms of Law including the words of Jesus Christ and the commands that come from His followers (When this is not the case).

How so?

Paul said,

"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing," (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

Paul said a person can deny GOD by a lack of works.

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

Note: A person cannot deny GOD and still be saved.
 
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yes sir, please explain how in light of romans 4, you can believe we are saved by works.

"But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works: “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered; Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin.” Romans 4:5-8 NKJV

note that romans was the book that convinced martin luther that we were not saved by works, but by faith alone (plus repentance). Luther however is not our example anyway, the scriptures are, and the above scriptures clearly teach works has no part in salvation.

When Paul says "DOES NOT WORK" or "IMPUTES RIGHTEOUSNESS APART FROM WORKS" he is referring to the Justification process when a person first accepts Jesus as their Savior vs. a person thinking they had to be circumcised first in order to be saved. For if a person thinks they have to be circumcised first to be saved, they are making the LAW the foundation and entrance gate to salvation. This is wrong. We first need Jesus, and we rest in Jesus for salvation. If a believer sins again, do they go out and do a good work to be cleansed of their sin? No. They go to Jesus (1 John 2:1). For if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9). So grace by faith in Christ is the entrance gate and the foundation of our faith and not the Law like trying to be circumcised in order to be saved.
 
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note that romans was the book that convinced martin luther that we were not saved by works, but by faith alone (plus repentance). Luther however is not our example anyway, the scriptures are, and the above scriptures clearly teach works has no part in salvation.

MARTIN LUTHER SAID:

"No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day" ~ Martin Luther.

BUT HEBREWS 10:26 SAYS:

"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins," (Hebrews 10:26).

"....there remains no more sacrifice for sins."


I will stick with the Bible and not Martin Luther.
 
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good post, we just need also to differentiate between salvic repentance and works, just like the scriptures do.

The person you quote had used Galatians 5:19-21. In this passage Paul says that these are the WORKS of the flesh. Why are they called works? Because they are evil actions or evil deeds. Jesus says if a branch does not abide in Him and does not bear good fruit, it will be cut off and cast into the fire (See: John 15:5-6). Jesus says that the faithful servant who was faithful over a little is told this: "Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord." (Matthew 25:21). Jesus said to the unprofitable servant (who did no works for the Lord): "And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 25:30).

"...God ... will render to every man according to his deeds" (Romans 2:5-6).

"And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." (John 5:29).
 
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Salvation without repentance is a mental thing but not a heart thing. You may believe Jesus existed, but satan believes that part. So what does it make you if you believe the same thing? The gospel message that lacks repentance is not a true gospel message. I have heard dozens of atheists say something like this...."I tried christianity and it didn't work. I have all these doubts about the Bible, or God now." I say this to them...."we all have doubts, I don't think that is the problem....I say..."I know you believed in Jesus, but did you ever repent of your sins?" I have never had one of them say yes.


A Biblical Case For Repentance:

At the heart, I believe the Bible teaches that repentance means, "Asking God for forgiveness" (Which of course naturally then leads to the "fruits of repentance", i.e. obedience to the Lord):

Important Note: While I may believe "Repentance" does involve to a certain degree a "change of mind" (like a person changing their mind about their old life of sin), I do not think "Repentance" exclusively means a “change of mind.”

Anyways, here are my ten points using Scripture showing that "repentance" means "asking God for forgiveness of sin."

#1. Acts 2:38,
The New Living Translation says in Acts 2:38 to "repent of your sins."
Douay Reheims says in Acts 2:38 to "Do penance."
New Life Version says in Acts 2:38 to "Be sorry for your sins"

#2. Luke 17:3 says, "Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him." This doesn't make any sense if "repent" means believe in Jesus (as some teach) or to have a change of mind about sin (as others teach) or to exclusively forsake sin. Yes, we are to forsake sin as a part of repentance but that comes later after repentance (Which is to ask God for forgiveness of our sin). For how can we reconcile with a brother if we do not say we are sorry vs. just going on about life as if we did nothing wrong?

#3. Jesus said in Matthew 12:41 that the Ninevites will rise up in Judgment against this generation because they repented at the preaching of Jonah. If you were to turn to Jonah chapter 3, you would be able to see in Jonah 3:6-10 that the King of the Ninevites had told his people to:

(a) Cry out to God (i.e. Repentance) (See Jonah 3:8).
(b) Turn from their sins or evil ways (i.e. The Natural Fruits of Repentance).​

#4. Matthew 3:6 (which then lines up with Matthew 3:8). Also, in Mark 1:4-5, it says John preached the "baptism of repentance" for the remission of sins (verse 4), and it then defines this "baptism of repentance" by saying they confessed their sins when they were baptized (verse 5).

#5. We see in Acts of the Apostles 8:22 a clear example of Peter telling Simon to "repent" of his wickedness in trying to pay for the Holy Spirit. Peter is telling Simon to make a prayer towards God. For Peter says that he should pray that God might forgive him. In other words, Peter is telling Simon to repent of a one time event of wickedness by way of prayer to GOD. This only makes sense if "repent" means to "ask for forgiveness."

#6. Ezekiel 14:6 says,
"Repent, and turn yourselves from your idols;" Repent makes the most sense here if a person is asking God for forgiveness by way of prayer instead of a person just believing in God. Naturally a person believes in God as their Savior if they are planning on forsaking their idols.

#7. We see repentance is the topic of discussion in Luke 15 (Luke 15:6) (Luke 15:10); This is then followed up by the "Parable of the Prodigal Son" with the son desiring to be reconciled with his father. We learn the WAY the Prodigal Son desired to be reconciled with his father when he said,

"I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee, And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants." (Luke 15:18-19).

In other words, the Prodigal Son was seeking forgiveness. This ties into the point of repentance in Luke 15:6 and Luke 15:10.

#8. Luke 10:13 says,
"Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon, which have been done in you, they had a great while ago repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes." This rules out the theory that repentance is exclusively forsaking sin. Granted, forsaking sin always follow true repentance (Asking God for forgiveness of one's sins) but forsaking sin is not repentance. The word "repented" here is describing a one time event because they "repented", sitting in sackcloth and ashes. In Jonah 3:6 we learn that the King of Nineveh sat in sackcloth and ashes. In Jonah 3:8, the King of Nineveh tells people to put on sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God (i.e. repentance): and then turn from their evil way (i.e. the fruits of repentance).

#9. John the Baptist says we are to bring forth fruits worthy of repentance (Luke 3:8). Fruits are deeds (or obedience to God). How can repentance be the same thing as the fruit? Is the fruit the same thing as the tree?

#10. Jeremiah 8:6 says, "I hearkened and heard, but they spake not aright: no man repented him of his wickedness, saying, What have I done? every one turned to his course, as the horse rusheth into the battle." Here we see the word "repented of wickedness" tied with the words, "What have I done?" This is an acknowledgement of one's sin to God as a part of asking His forgiveness.


Notable Additional Verses that Deal with Repentance
(But They Do Not Use The Word "Repent" or "Repentance"):

"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Romans 10:13).

13 "And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted. (Luke 18:13-14).

Proverbs 28:13 says whosoever confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy.
 
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IMPORTANT NOTE:

A person's repentance (i.e. Their seeking forgiveness with the LORD) is made genuine or true if they make good on their prayer by living for the LORD. For we are told to bring forth fruits (deeds) worthy of repentance by John the Baptist. John the Baptist says in context that the axe laid to the root of the tree. This would be US. We are the tree that is about to be cut down if we do not seek forgiveness with GOD (i.e. to repent), and if we do not bring forth fruits (deeds or works) WORTHY or BEFITTING of repentance. (Note: The words in purple within brackets within the passage below is my commentary to the text).

"Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance [i.e. the proper result of a true repentance]: And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: [i.e. Belief Alone-ism] for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. [i.e. we can be cut down and thrown into the Lake of fire if we are not fruitful for our Lord]"
(Matthew 3:8-10).
 
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sir grace and works are diametrically opposed, the law of non contradiction is a logical law. God created logic when he created our minds. We use logic to learn how to walk, to breath, to eat food and use the restroom, to learn to drive, or use a computer. However to believe grace and works are the same is a contradiction. You absolutely cannot both be saved by grace and works at the same time, some of what you posted I agree with just not the salvation by works Idea. Here is verses that disprove the salvation by works idea (it's a repeat of a previous post, because no one refuted it so it still valid)

"For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law." Galatians 3:21b

there is no law, loving your enemy, following God with all your heart, etc....no law at all that can save. If there was such a law, salvation would be by that law, and not the cross. God would rather allow a law that saved, than to torture His beloved son in our stead.

And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work."
Romans 11:6 nkjv

So the Bible itself does not interpret repentance as a work of righteousness. As it says above if repentance was a work, then it would cancel out grace as a means of salvation entirely. They are opposites, according to the law of non contradiction, both cannot be correct.


Again we must repent to be saved, but that repentance does not have eternal merit, thus according to scripture it is not a work. If we are living with our girlfriend before marriage, we must repent of that sin of adultery. If we are homosexual we must repent of homosexuality and accept God's sexuality for our lives if we wish to be Christian. But that repentance is not a work, here is why...We must interpret theological words according to the Bible. I interpret salvic repentance as part of trusting in Christ alone. If we worship god's of sex, god's of sports or gods of gleaming chromium (cars), we are not worshiping God. We must put down those false gods and give God our life. We can have recreation yes, any recreation that does not morally compromise our faith. However we must not idolize that recreation. Ecclesiastes says "there is a time for everything" My interpretation is this..."there is a time to play, and a time to rest, and a time for church, and a time to spend with family" If your recreation takes up all of your existing time and you don't have time for family or God, then you have to re-prioritize your life.

so again romans 11:6 dictates that if we are saved by grace, it cannot at the same time be works based. They are opposites. Here is that verse in several other translations:

New International Version
And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

New Living Translation
And since it is through God’s kindness, then it is not by their good works. For in that case, God’s grace would not be what it really is—free and undeserved.

English Standard Version
But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

Berean Study Bible
And if it is by grace, then it is no longer by works. Otherwise, grace would no longer be grace.

Berean Literal Bible
And if by grace, it is no longer from works; otherwise grace no longer would be grace.

New American Standard Bible
But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

New King James Version
And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

King James Bible
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Christian Standard Bible
Now if by grace, then it is not by works; otherwise grace ceases to be grace.

Contemporary English Version
This happened because of God's undeserved kindness and not because of anything they have done. It could not have happened except for God's gift of undeserved grace.

Good News Translation
His choice is based on his grace, not on what they have done. For if God's choice were based on what people do, then his grace would not be real grace.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Now if by grace, then it is not by works; otherwise grace ceases to be grace.

International Standard Version
But if this is by grace, then it is no longer on the basis of actions. Otherwise, grace would no longer be grace.

NET Bible
And if it is by grace, it is no longer by works, otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

New Heart English Bible
And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
But if it is by grace, it is not from works, or else grace is not grace. But if it is by works, it is not from grace, or else work is not work.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
If they were chosen by God's kindness, they weren't chosen because of anything they did. Otherwise, God's kindness wouldn't be kindness.

New American Standard 1977
But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

Jubilee Bible 2000
And if by grace, then is it not by works; otherwise, the grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, then it is no longer grace; otherwise, the work is no longer work.

King James 2000 Bible
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

American King James Version
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

American Standard Version
But if it is by grace, it is no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And if by grace, it is not now by works: otherwise grace is no more grace.

Darby Bible Translation
But if by grace, no longer of works: since [otherwise] grace is no more grace.

English Revised Version
But if it is by grace, it is no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace.

Webster's Bible Translation
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Weymouth New Testament
But if it is in His grace that He has selected them, then His choice is no longer determined by human actions. Otherwise grace would be grace no longer.

Both of those verses are referring to justification not salvation. We are counted as being righteous by God By faith but we must bear fruit to receive eternal life. John 15:1-10 is a prime example of this as well as James 2:14-26, and the entire chapter of Matthew 25. The parable of the 10 virgins is about being prepared for Christ’s return. The parable of the talents is about remaining trustworthy until Christ returns. The parable of the sheep & goats is about doing works of love and charity for those in need. Notice the reason Jesus gave for condemning the goats in verses 41-43. The goats did not have love for others and their lack of charity towards those in need was the evidence that condemned them. James 2:14-16 gives a similar message as well as John 15:10-12. Paul said if I have faith so as to move mountains but I have not love I am nothing. So once we are justified by faith God has expectations of His children. Notice the epistle to the Ephesians is addressed to the faithful saints in Ephesus and yet in Ephesians 5:1-6 Paul warn them of turning back to a life of sin and thus receiving the wrath of God on the sons of disobedience which results in them having no inheritance in the kingdom of God. Romans 6:16 again Paul warns believers who are saved that we are servants of the master whom which we serve. Either servants of righteousness leading to eternal life or servants to sin resulting in death. The way I see it is a person can be a child of God one minute and a son of disobedience the next. The choices we make after being justified do directly affect whether or not we will receive eternal life.
 
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BNR32FAN

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IMPORTANT NOTE:

A person's repentance (i.e. Their seeking forgiveness with the LORD) is made genuine or true if they make good on their prayer by living for the LORD. For we are told to bring forth fruits (deeds) worthy of repentance by John the Baptist. John the Baptist says in context that the axe laid to the root of the tree. This would be US. We are the tree that is about to be cut down if we do not seek forgiveness with GOD (i.e. to repent), and if we do not bring forth fruits (deeds or works) WORTHY or BEFITTING of repentance. (Note: The words in purple within brackets within the passage below is my commentary to the text).

"Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance [i.e. the proper result of a true repentance]: And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: [i.e. Belief Alone-ism] for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. [i.e. we can be cut down and thrown into the Lake of fire if we are not fruitful for our Lord]"
(Matthew 3:8-10).

Amen even the definition of Greek words that are translated to the English words faith, believe, and believer all imply a certain level of trustworthiness, faithfulness, fidelity, and loyalty. The problem is there are no English words that fully encompasses the definitions of the Greek words used.

believe

G4100


Lemma:

πιστεύω


Transliteration:

pisteúō


Pronounce:

pist-yoo'-o


Part of Speech:

Verb


Language:

greek


Description:

1) to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in a) of the thing believed

1) to credit, have confidence b) in a moral or religious reference

1) used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul

2) to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith

3) mere acknowledgment of some fact or event: intellectual faith

2) to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity a) to be intrusted with a thing


believers

G4103


Lemma:

πιστός


Transliteration:

pistós


Pronounce:

pis-tos'


Part of Speech:

Adjective


Language:

greek


Description:

1) trusty, faithful a) of persons who show themselves faithful in the transaction of business, the execution of commands, or the discharge of official duties b) one who kept his plighted faith, worthy of trust c) that can be relied on

2) easily persuaded a) believing, confiding, trusting b) in the NT one who trusts in God's promises

1) one who is convinced that Jesus has been raised from the dead

2) one who has become convinced that Jesus is the Messiah and author of salvation


faith

G4102


Lemma:

πίστις


Transliteration:

pístis


Pronounce:

pis'-tis


Part of Speech:

Noun Feminine


Language:

greek


Description:

1) conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man's relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervour born of faith and joined with it a) relating to God

1) the conviction that God exists and is the creator and ruler of all things, the provider and bestower of eternal salvation through Christ b) relating to Christ

1) a strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God c) the religious beliefs of Christians d) belief with the predominate idea of trust (or confidence) whether in God or in Christ, springing from faith in the same

2) fidelity, faithfulness a) the character of one who can be relied on
 
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MARTIN LUTHER SAID:

"No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day" ~ Martin Luther.

BUT HEBREWS 10:26 SAYS:

"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins," (Hebrews 10:26).

"....there remains no more sacrifice for sins."


I will stick with the Bible and not Martin Luther.

Not a single apostolic church supported Martin Luther’s teachings. In fact they ALL rejected them and still do.
 
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A Biblical Case For Repentance:

At the heart, I believe the Bible teaches that repentance means, "Asking God for forgiveness" (Which of course naturally then leads to the "fruits of repentance", i.e. obedience to the Lord):

Important Note: While I may believe "Repentance" does involve to a certain degree a "change of mind" (like a person changing their mind about their old life of sin), I do not think "Repentance" exclusively means a “change of mind.”

Anyways, here are my ten points using Scripture showing that "repentance" means "asking God for forgiveness of sin."

#1. Acts 2:38,
The New Living Translation says in Acts 2:38 to "repent of your sins."
Douay Reheims says in Acts 2:38 to "Do penance."
New Life Version says in Acts 2:38 to "Be sorry for your sins"

#2. Luke 17:3 says, "Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him." This doesn't make any sense if "repent" means believe in Jesus (as some teach) or to have a change of mind about sin (as others teach) or to exclusively forsake sin. Yes, we are to forsake sin as a part of repentance but that comes later after repentance (Which is to ask God for forgiveness of our sin). For how can we reconcile with a brother if we do not say we are sorry vs. just going on about life as if we did nothing wrong?

#3. Jesus said in Matthew 12:41 that the Ninevites will rise up in Judgment against this generation because they repented at the preaching of Jonah. If you were to turn to Jonah chapter 3, you would be able to see in Jonah 3:6-10 that the King of the Ninevites had told his people to:

(a) Cry out to God (i.e. Repentance) (See Jonah 3:8).
(b) Turn from their sins or evil ways (i.e. The Natural Fruits of Repentance).​

#4. Matthew 3:6 (which then lines up with Matthew 3:8). Also, in Mark 1:4-5, it says John preached the "baptism of repentance" for the remission of sins (verse 4), and it then defines this "baptism of repentance" by saying they confessed their sins when they were baptized (verse 5).

#5. We see in Acts of the Apostles 8:22 a clear example of Peter telling Simon to "repent" of his wickedness in trying to pay for the Holy Spirit. Peter is telling Simon to make a prayer towards God. For Peter says that he should pray that God might forgive him. In other words, Peter is telling Simon to repent of a one time event of wickedness by way of prayer to GOD. This only makes sense if "repent" means to "ask for forgiveness."

#6. Ezekiel 14:6 says,
"Repent, and turn yourselves from your idols;" Repent makes the most sense here if a person is asking God for forgiveness by way of prayer instead of a person just believing in God. Naturally a person believes in God as their Savior if they are planning on forsaking their idols.

#7. We see repentance is the topic of discussion in Luke 15 (Luke 15:6) (Luke 15:10); This is then followed up by the "Parable of the Prodigal Son" with the son desiring to be reconciled with his father. We learn the WAY the Prodigal Son desired to be reconciled with his father when he said,

"I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee, And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants." (Luke 15:18-19).

In other words, the Prodigal Son was seeking forgiveness. This ties into the point of repentance in Luke 15:6 and Luke 15:10.

#8. Luke 10:13 says,
"Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon, which have been done in you, they had a great while ago repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes." This rules out the theory that repentance is exclusively forsaking sin. Granted, forsaking sin always follow true repentance (Asking God for forgiveness of one's sins) but forsaking sin is not repentance. The word "repented" here is describing a one time event because they "repented", sitting in sackcloth and ashes. In Jonah 3:6 we learn that the King of Nineveh sat in sackcloth and ashes. In Jonah 3:8, the King of Nineveh tells people to put on sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God (i.e. repentance): and then turn from their evil way (i.e. the fruits of repentance).

#9. John the Baptist says we are to bring forth fruits worthy of repentance (Luke 3:8). Fruits are deeds (or obedience to God). How can repentance be the same thing as the fruit? Is the fruit the same thing as the tree?

#10. Jeremiah 8:6 says, "I hearkened and heard, but they spake not aright: no man repented him of his wickedness, saying, What have I done? every one turned to his course, as the horse rusheth into the battle." Here we see the word "repented of wickedness" tied with the words, "What have I done?" This is an acknowledgement of one's sin to God as a part of asking His forgiveness.


Notable Additional Verses that Deal with Repentance
(But They Do Not Use The Word "Repent" or "Repentance"):

"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Romans 10:13).

13 "And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted. (Luke 18:13-14).

Proverbs 28:13 says whosoever confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy.

The way repentance aka metanoia was explained to me is that it is more than just a change of mind but a change of heart or way of life. It’s a 180 degree turn away from sin and towards God. I’m surprised I haven’t gotten dizzy yet as many times I’ve turned around since accepting Christ. It’s a constant daily battle not a one time event. ;)
 
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Not a single apostolic church supported Martin Luther’s teachings. In fact they ALL rejected them and still do.

I want to visit Christ's Sanctified Holy church someday (Lord willing).

On the main page of their website, they state:

"Christ's Sanctified Holy Church is an association of churches established primarily on the principle that salvation is accomplished by two separate works of the grace of God through faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God. The first work of grace is forgiveness of the sins that we have committed, which requires full repentance toward God. The second work is the baptism of the Holy Ghost, or sanctification, which is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, eradicating the nature of sin."
Source:
Christ's Sanctified Holy Church-Holiness unto the Lord

This to me gets to the heart of what salvation is all about (that so many today do not understand).
 
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The way repentance aka metanoia was explained to me is that it is more than just a change of mind but a change of heart or way of life. It’s a 180 degree turn away from sin and towards God. I’m surprised I haven’t gotten dizzy yet as many times I’ve turned around since accepting Christ. It’s a constant daily battle not a one time event. ;)

I believe the context (surrounding words) determines the definition of a word. Meaning, if were to put a blank space _______ for a mystery word in the place for the word "repent" we were to simply look at the surround words to define what is filled in the blank we can come to a reasonable conclusion of what that word means even without a name for that word or without using a Lexicon that was defined by religious guys. The list of verses I provide proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that the word "repent" appears in use of the context of supporting the idea that it means "seeking forgiveness with the Lord." The surrounding words supports this fact.
 
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