Faith? No Logical Proof.

Let’s try something else then if my questions are too hard:

KnowThyself said:

I have no doubt that I will ultimately go to heaven.

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KnowThyself said:

. I simply chose not to accept God as my God.

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What makes you think that you will go to heaven if you do not accept God as your God?

KnowThyself said:

Hi there. My name is Peter. I'm not really sure what to call myself from a religious belief aspect any more. At least not currently. You see, I grew up in a Christian family, going to church pretty much every Sunday, and then to youth group on Wednesdays. I'd go on youth missions sometimes. I then rebelled from religion around the age of 15, and got in with the bad crowd. I was Atheist for about 5 years and completely denied God. Then for about 12 years I was Agnostic, and didn't deny or accept God. I simply said that I didn't know? In that time however I enjoyed studying different spiritual beliefs, and religious aspects of life. I also write poetry and philosophies. So, about a month to two months ago, I was writing in a political forum, and the theory/subject/question of the Chicken vs. the Egg came up. Now this is a question that has been asked for many many years, basically, because it's asking to me anyways what or who is real/created everything and everyone in life? It's basically comparing God, vs Science or Evolution. So I was taking a shower thinking about this, and randomly I do believe that I came up with an answer to this age old question. That God is real, and I can prove it. However I still don't accept him as my God, for reasons I will never go into on here. How can I prove it? You see the Chicken/aka God had to come first. Mainly because the egg couldn't. If the egg came first, there would be no parent to teach the child/egg where to find food, water, and shelter. Or how to stay away from predators, and hide from them. The animal/race would cease to exist without the God/chicken coming first.

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Hello KnowThyself,

All of this is interesting, but you do know that this section is for Christians to discuss Philosophy and not just for the general public at large to do so. Since you seem to say that you're not a Trinitarian Christian any longer, you might have the Moderators move this thread of yours to another, more appropriate forum.

I know, I know. Rules can be a bummer sometimes.

KnowThyself said:

u must have skipped over this part? hahaha
"I'm not really sure what to call myself from a religious belief aspect any more. At least not currently."
It's right at the very begining.

​

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I think that yours is an honest answer . You don't know what to call yourself and obviously it does not matter what others call you for we will all kneel before the truth ( which God knows ) and I accept to be Christ or the reality ...the purpose , the reason ( Logos ) etc.
As you do not identify as a christian but as yet still some sort of believer and of a fairly high intelligence , I do want to present you with a few things which you may or may not agree but I believe to be true . I have read that God gives grace to the humble but is opposed to the proud . We are saved by grace . Paul said , look amongst you ..there are not many wise according to this world , etc.
Jesus said to learn of me ..I am meek and lowly of heart .
If you had known Me , you would know my Father as well . From now on you do know Him and have seen Him . Philip said , Lord , show us the Father and it will be enough . Jesus replied , Philip I have been with you all of this time and still you do not know Me? Anyone who has seen Me has seen the Father . How can you say show us the Father ?
My point in relaying this is seems that our Father , God is humble . Lowly and meek . Which is totally contrary to the pride and self-centeredness of man .It is what makes Him God . It is why Jesus said that whoever says Raca ( worthless ) will be answerable to the council but whoever says , thou fool will be in danger of the fires of hell .
I am making reference to " The level of some people's ignorance baffles me . " This statement makes you sound superior and maybe you are in intelligence but God does not need our intelligence . He needs us to love . I hope you get to know Him ...He is meek .

KnowThyself said:

Hi there. My name is Peter. I'm not really sure what to call myself from a religious belief aspect any more. At least not currently. You see, I grew up in a Christian family, going to church pretty much every Sunday, and then to youth group on Wednesdays. I'd go on youth missions sometimes. I then rebelled from religion around the age of 15, and got in with the bad crowd. I was Atheist for about 5 years and completely denied God. Then for about 12 years I was Agnostic, and didn't deny or accept God. I simply said that I didn't know? In that time however I enjoyed studying different spiritual beliefs, and religious aspects of life. I also write poetry and philosophies. So, about a month to two months ago, I was writing in a political forum, and the theory/subject/question of the Chicken vs. the Egg came up. Now this is a question that has been asked for many many years, basically, because it's asking to me anyways what or who is real/created everything and everyone in life? It's basically comparing God, vs Science or Evolution. So I was taking a shower thinking about this, and randomly I do believe that I came up with an answer to this age old question. That God is real, and I can prove it. However I still don't accept him as my God, for reasons I will never go into on here. How can I prove it? You see the Chicken/aka God had to come first. Mainly because the egg couldn't. If the egg came first, there would be no parent to teach the child/egg where to find food, water, and shelter. Or how to stay away from predators, and hide from them. The animal/race would cease to exist without the God/chicken coming first.

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There are many evidences that back up the Bible.
I would encourage you to check out my Blogger article here:

Love Branch: Evidences for the Word of God

KnowThyself said:

Hi there. My name is Peter. I'm not really sure what to call myself from a religious belief aspect any more. At least not currently. You see, I grew up in a Christian family, going to church pretty much every Sunday, and then to youth group on Wednesdays. I'd go on youth missions sometimes. I then rebelled from religion around the age of 15, and got in with the bad crowd. I was Atheist for about 5 years and completely denied God. Then for about 12 years I was Agnostic, and didn't deny or accept God. I simply said that I didn't know? In that time however I enjoyed studying different spiritual beliefs, and religious aspects of life. I also write poetry and philosophies. So, about a month to two months ago, I was writing in a political forum, and the theory/subject/question of the Chicken vs. the Egg came up. Now this is a question that has been asked for many many years, basically, because it's asking to me anyways what or who is real/created everything and everyone in life? It's basically comparing God, vs Science or Evolution. So I was taking a shower thinking about this, and randomly I do believe that I came up with an answer to this age old question. That God is real, and I can prove it. However I still don't accept him as my God, for reasons I will never go into on here. How can I prove it? You see the Chicken/aka God had to come first. Mainly because the egg couldn't. If the egg came first, there would be no parent to teach the child/egg where to find food, water, and shelter. Or how to stay away from predators, and hide from them. The animal/race would cease to exist without the God/chicken coming first.

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What is your view of God's judgement?

Let's all take a moment to pray for KnowThyself. (Peter)
We look forward to the day when you'll look back on your foolishness.

KnowThyself said:

Hi there. My name is Peter. I'm not really sure what to call myself from a religious belief aspect any more. At least not currently. You see, I grew up in a Christian family, going to church pretty much every Sunday, and then to youth group on Wednesdays. I'd go on youth missions sometimes. I then rebelled from religion around the age of 15, and got in with the bad crowd. I was Atheist for about 5 years and completely denied God. Then for about 12 years I was Agnostic, and didn't deny or accept God. I simply said that I didn't know? In that time however I enjoyed studying different spiritual beliefs, and religious aspects of life. I also write poetry and philosophies. So, about a month to two months ago, I was writing in a political forum, and the theory/subject/question of the Chicken vs. the Egg came up. Now this is a question that has been asked for many many years, basically, because it's asking to me anyways what or who is real/created everything and everyone in life? It's basically comparing God, vs Science or Evolution. So I was taking a shower thinking about this, and randomly I do believe that I came up with an answer to this age old question. That God is real, and I can prove it. However I still don't accept him as my God, for reasons I will never go into on here. How can I prove it?

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Who Else Wants to finally SEE Gods Answers to Prayers?

KnowThyself said:

Hi there. My name is Peter. I'm not really sure what to call myself from a religious belief aspect any more. At least not currently. You see, I grew up in a Christian family, going to church pretty much every Sunday, and then to youth group on Wednesdays. I'd go on youth missions sometimes. I then rebelled from religion around the age of 15, and got in with the bad crowd. I was Atheist for about 5 years and completely denied God.

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So, then, you were never truly born-again, spiritually-regenerated and made a child of God.

KnowThyself said:

It's basically comparing God, vs Science or Evolution.

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I guess you're not aware that there is no real conflict between theism and science or evolution. One could grant all that the ToE asserts and not diminish a theistic worldview one iota. In other words, the ToE does nothing to disprove God. And some of the greatest scientists have been theists: Gregor Mendel, Blaise Pascal, Johannes Kepler, Isaac Newton, Michael Faraday, George Washington Carver, etc. Even today, this is so.

KnowThyself said:

That God is real, and I can prove it.

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Try the Kalam Cosmological Argument, or the Argument from Contingency, or the many teleological arguments, or the Argument from Morality or any of a large number of arguments that demonstrate that God exists.

KnowThyself said:

However I still don't accept him as my God, for reasons I will never go into on here.

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Well, this doesn't do anything to alter the fact that one day you will stand before Him to give an account and to be judged. What's more, God isn't the least diminished by your unwillingness to accept Him. He's perfect and can't be diminished. But you, well, that's a very different matter. You're in big trouble living in rebellion to your Maker.

Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

You acknowledge God as being real.
You currently do not accept Him as your God despite your belief in Him.

You're in trouble now. You will either change your mind or won't. In any case, the Hound of Heaven is after you, and He will not be satisfied until you are His own. He has already sought you out, and you have taken the first step towards Him.

Go the whole way. If God is real, then what does that mean for you, for all of reality? It means that everything was designed according to his will. Everything was made to fulfill the purposes He set out for them. And what is the glorious purpose He has laid before you just as He has every human being?

To live in love and communion with Him. To bear His image and rule the earth as His partner, to love and serve Him and to love and serve that which He created.

There is no purpose outside of that for you. Keep dawdling on the sidelines; you will only find nothingness there. But to love and worship the Living God--a God who is constantly sustaining you and the entire world because of His selfless love. He has given you an invitation to enjoy that love forever; it is what was always meant to be for you. That is what mankind's glorious destiny was supposed to be. Don't make the mistake of rejecting that in favor of dust and darkness.

"The more we let God take us over, the more truly ourselves we become - because He made us. He invented us. He invented all the different people that you and I were intended to be. . .It is when I turn to Christ, when I give up myself to His personality, that I first begin to have a real personality of my own."
- C.S. Lewis

The flaw in your "logic" of proving that God just is, by the chicken and the egg argument is one of the same arguments that atheism has with God... simply "just being". If the chicken... "just was" then.... who or what created the chicken as it had to come from somewhere.

That said, IF God simply created the chicken... could He not also create the egg, protect, raise and give it instincts to simply know how to survive?

Could it not be that in the chickens initial creation there were no predators as... man had not yet been created and so, it did not need to know of predators and survival because God created the creatures of the Earth BEFORE He created man... IF man were not yet created... the fall had not yet happened.

That is the problem with "proving God" through logical means... God says His ways are not our ways (we are logical creatures) IF His ways are grwayer and not as our own ways.... it means it will NOT always be logical.

We are also told to not lean on our own understandings... because ultimately you get didtracted with arguements such as the chicken, or the egg and lose focus on what truly matters, that which is of eternal consequence... knowing Jesus.

There is nothing with logic, there is nothing wrong with intellect.... but IF you MUST hang your hat on logic... let it be this, IF it can be "proven" it ceases to be faith.

As far as you believing in a God, but do not choose "this" God, you should seriously, logically consider why... you would cut off ANY options of the God you believe exists but do not seek Him out...

IF you had cancer... and you knew there was a cure..... but there was only one doctor that could do so.... would you not do all in your power to seek him out?

You being mortal... will die some day.... YOU state you believe there is a God...implying you will stand before your maker some day... yet... if you take lightly seeking Him out.... what kind of logical sense does that make?

Seeking the doctor for a cure for a disease.. has at most... what 50 years consequence... while the issue of death and God (as you said you believe in) has eternal consequence.

KnowThyself said:

I simply chose not to accept God as my God. Even though I know he is real.

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the devil knows God is real too but doesn't accept Him as his God either.

KnowThyself said:

That God is real, and I can prove it. However I still don't accept him as my God

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Don't stop now. If by virtue of your intellect you have deduced that God exists, that God is the chicken upon which the egg depends, then continue on until you come to the realization that pride and arrogance is unbecoming of a creature so wholly dependent on the Creator. You cannot claim to have understood much if you cannot humbly take your rightful place in the created order. I pray God's speed in your further deliberations.

eleos1954 said:

Yes ... this is the answer .... has been posted in these forums many times.

In regard to the chicken

Takes Male & Female fully formed - in order to breed to get the egg
Takes at least one adult to hatch (incubate) the egg
Takes at least one adult to care for the young while it is vulnerable and able to care for itself.

"parents" of any mammal species takes care of their young .... as designed by the Lord. ;o)

Genesis 1:24
And God said, "Let the earth bring forth living creatures according to their kinds: livestock, land crawlers, and wild animals according to their kinds." And it was so.

and that's exactly what we see.

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Exactly, and to further that thought, the Bible does not say that God said, "And let there be eggs and newborns..."

KnowThyself said:

Do you know what saddens me about you my friend? Is that you remind me why I left the faith in the first place, at a very young age. To many people that believe in God, are some of the quickest people to judge others. Only God has the right to judge me, and not you. Since I'm a hybrid, and different than probably most of the people on here, let alone most people that believe or don't believe, I would think that I might be an exception to the rules, at least when it comes to being a Christian or not?

Non- Christians are either Agnostics, or Atheists, or of other beliefs, and deny God, or are neutral, and don't say he is or isn't real. I say that I know he is real, but I simply don't accept him as my God, and considering I went from believing at a young age, to Atheism, to Agnosticism to what I am now, I would say, that is pretty exceptional personally, because I've never even heard of anyone like me before belief wise. Have you?

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And what saddens me about you is that you apparently have a distorted view about what constitutes biblical "judgement," as is so very, very often the case these days in our over-sensitive, pluralized society, and you've decided that rather than to grow some back-bone and explore the Christian faith on a wider scale it was better to just jettison the Trinitarian Tradition................and free-boot it.

If that doesn't sit well with you, then you might consider not blaming every single other person around you who happens to be a Trinitarian Christian; it might just turn out that Pascal was right and you're in need of a lesson or two from him, as well as from some other Christians along this long experience we call ... LIFE.

AGAIN, there ARE, at minimum, some rules HERE! So, if you think you're somehow outside of the confines of those rules, please think again!

Over and OUT!

KnowThyself said:

If I was a praying man, I would definitely pray for you.

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And likewise, I'll say some prayers for you. But there is this thing over and above prayer alone, and it's called REALITY, and somewhere in that reality is another thing we call TRUTH. And the truth is, if you're outside of the Trinitarian position, then you're outside of the Christian Faith.

Besides, it's not like I don't know how frustrating it can be for folks----like us----who search for answers to our many questions and not only come up short but find that people are unwilling to bend to our emotional needs. But again, that's life and in THIS forum, right now, if you want to continue, you need to be a Christian. Otherwise, move your discussion to another forum.

KnowThyself said:

I think the problem with most Christians now a days is humbleness.

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You've mentioned humility a number of times now. I think you're projecting, and that you're problem is actually humility. Here are a few quotes by you that would indicate that might be the case...

KnowThyself said:

I know plenty of "truths". More than most people will, even come close to in their lives.

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KnowThyself said:

It would be really really nice in life in general if people actually weren't so stupid, and used more common sense on a regular basis. lol.

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KnowThyself said:

I could go get a child to try and explain it to you. Maybe you could relate better with him or her?

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KnowThyself said:

The level of some people's ignorance baffles me intellectually. lol.

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KnowThyself said:

what that means Einstein is that if those dead babies could talk, they would have voted to at least been able to have a chance at life.

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The way you speak to people on this forum is condescending, rude, and has no place for someone who is humble in life.

KnowThyself said:

To be a true Christian, is to strive to be more like God. Which is perfection. Now that is not possible amongst a human.

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This of course is incorrect. To be a true Christian means that a person acknowledges that God exists, and then also recognizes that they are a sinner (humility), and that they need forgiveness (humility), and then they recognize that forgiveness is possible through the atoning work of Christ. People who see this, and who then accept the atoning work of Christ are True Christians.

The life then lived by True Christians is one in which we daily strive to become more like Christ, who was perfect - but knowing that perfection will not be realized until Christ comes back.

KnowThyself said:

However, it does sadden me, that most of you on here seem to want to judge me, and try to force ably change me(control me), then to support me, and give me options, and to simply try and point me in the right direction.

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We are called not to judge another person's heart. But we can judge, and ought to judge actions. It's a real sign of pride in how you're responding to people here. I recommend taking a step back and considering that there may be something to what everyone is saying.

Finally, you said:

KnowThyself said:

I have no doubt that I will ultimately go to heaven.

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KnowThyself said:

. I simply chose not to accept God as my God.

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What makes you think that you will go to heaven if you do not accept God as your God?