Question for the 7th Day Community

rturner76 said:

I am posting a question in fellowship. I have no intention of debating anyone's answer. I am just curious about one philosophy I have heard from many &th Day believers mostly on this particular website.

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Sounds good. Hi. Welcome. You are always welcome to honestly ask and wouldn't want it any other way.

You can listen to the Great Controversy here:


You can listen to the Desire of Ages here:

rturner76 said:

Is it the official doctrine of the Adventist movement that the Catholic Church is anathema?

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Here, consider these quotations:

"... But Christians of past generations observed the Sunday, supposing that in so doing they were keeping the Bible Sabbath; and there are now true Christians in every church, not excepting the Roman Catholic communion, who honestly believe that Sunday is the Sabbath of divine appointment. God accepts their sincerity of purpose and their integrity before Him. ..." - GC, 449.1

"... Among the Catholics there are many who are most conscientious Christians, and who walk in all the light that shines upon them, and God will work in their behalf. ..." - Testimonies, vol. 9, pp. 241-244. (1909)

"... There are many among the Catholics who live up to the light they have far better than many who claim to believe present [41] truth, and God will just as surely test and prove them as He has tested and proved us. And just according to their willingness to stand the testing, of whatever character it may be, will be their accountability before God. From that which God has shown me, a great number will be saved from among the Catholics. ..." - 2 SAT, 40.4

So, to begin with, Seventh-day Adventists make distinction between individual persons, and systems of theology, and sins (1 John 3:4).

For instance, Roman Catholicism's doctrine of the "mass" would be blasphemy, while Roman Catholicism's teaching on the children of Joseph, align with what Seventh-day Adventists teach:

[A.] “... His brothers, as the sons of Joseph were called, sided with the rabbis. They insisted that the traditions must be heeded, as if they were the requirements of God. They even regarded the precepts of men more highly than the word of God, and they were greatly annoyed at the clear penetration of Jesus in distinguishing between the false and the true. ...” - The Desire of Ages, p. 86.2

[B.] “ … All this displeased His brothers. Being older than Jesus, they felt that He should be under their dictation. ...” - The Desire of Ages, p. 87.2

[C.] “... Here were the familiar forms and faces of those whom He had known from infancy. Here were His mother, His brothers and sisters, and all eyes were turned upon Him as He entered the synagogue upon the Sabbath day, and took His place among the worshipers. ...” - The Desire of Ages, p. 236.2

[D.] “... His brothers often brought forward the philosophy of the Pharisees, which was threadbare and hoary with age, and presumed to think that they could teach Him who understood all truth, and comprehended all mysteries. ...” - The Desire of Ages, p. 326.3

[E.] “... His brothers had spoken to Him in a tone of authority, prescribing the course He should pursue. ...” - The Desire of Ages, p. 451.2

[F] “... When urged by His brothers to present Himself publicly as the Messiah, His answer was, “My time is not yet come.” John 7:6. ...” - The Desire of Ages, p. 485.2

Thus the Spirit of Prophecy, drawing from the scripture (citations upon request), just eliminated these “brothers” from being born of Mary (though not a perpetual virgin).

The Spirit of Prophecy declares in just as explicit a manner, that the brothers and sisters of Jesus, were the sons and daughters of Joseph, whom was older than Mary, and thus were brothers and sisters by the marriage to Mary, and are never called the sons and/or daughters of Mary, in either Scripture, or Spirit of Prophecy, but always those of Joseph alone, and thus they “passed” as brothers of Jesus, or were “called” such:

[A.] “... His brothers, as the sons of Joseph were called ...” - The Desire of Ages, p. 86.2 or A Call To Stand Apart, p. 9.3

[B.] “... The sons of Joseph, who passed as brothers of Jesus ...” - The Spirit of Prophecy Volume 2, p. 337.2

[C.] “... His brothers, as the sons of Joseph were called ...” - From Heaven With Love, p. 52.2

[D.] “... -5. Relatives Dimly Understood Christ’s Mission—[John 7:1-5 quoted.] The brethren here referred to were the sons of Joseph ...” - S.D.A. Bible Commentary Vol. 5, p. 1135.10

[E.] “... Satan was constantly suggesting to His brethren, the sons of Joseph ...” - The Upward Look, p. 54.6

[F.] “... The sons and daughters of Joseph knew this ...” - The Desire of Ages, p. 90.1 or Daughters of God, p. 53.1 or From Heaven With Love, p. 55.1

Does that help answer your question? For each doctrine, it would have to be discussed individually.

rturner76 said:

Secondly and related to that question, is it an official doctrine that "The Pope" is or may be Antichrist? If so, is it taught that he is either THE Antichrist or A antichrist?

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Here is a citation from the Great Controversy:

"... When the papal bull reached Luther, he said: "I despise and attack it, as impious, false. . . . It is Christ Himself who [142] is condemned therein. . . . I rejoice in having to bear such ills for the best of causes. Already I feel greater liberty in my heart; for at last I know that the pope is antichrist, and that his throne is that of Satan himself."--D'Aubigne, b. 6, ch. 9. {GC 141.3} ..."

This was the position of the reformers (Calvin, Zwingli, Luther, Melanchthon, Huss, Jerome, etc, etc), and others before them.

The position of "pope" is identified by scripture, as the "man of sin" (which is multiple, a position), "son of perdition".

In scripture there are the "antichrist", "antichrists" and "spirit of antichrist". This may be gone into in more detail as needful. The Great Controversy again:

"... This compromise between paganism and Christianity resulted in the development of "the man of sin" foretold in prophecy as opposing and exalting himself above God. That gigantic system of false religion is a masterpiece of Satan's power--a monument of his efforts to seat himself upon the throne to rule the earth according to his will. {GC 50.1}

Satan once endeavored to form a compromise with Christ. He came to the Son of God in the wilderness of temptation, and showing Him all the kingdoms of the world and the glory of them, offered to give all into His hands if He would but acknowledge the supremacy of the prince of darkness. Christ rebuked the presumptuous tempter and forced him to depart. But Satan meets with greater success in presenting the same temptations to man. To secure worldly gains and honors, the church was led to seek the favor and support of the great men of earth; and having thus rejected Christ, she was induced to yield allegiance to the representative of Satan--the bishop of Rome. {GC 50.2}

It is one of the leading doctrines of Romanism that the pope is the visible head of the universal church of Christ, invested with supreme authority over bishops and pastors in all parts of the world. More than this, the pope has been given the very titles of Deity. He has been styled "Lord God the Pope" (see Appendix), and has been declared infallible. He demands the homage of all men. The same claim urged by Satan in the wilderness of temptation is still urged by him through the Church of Rome, and vast numbers are ready to yield him homage. [51] {GC 50.3}

But those who fear and reverence God meet this heaven-daring assumption as Christ met the solicitations of the wily foe: "Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and Him only shalt thou serve." Luke 4:8. God has never given a hint in His word that He has appointed any man to be the head of the church. The doctrine of papal supremacy is directly opposed to the teachings of the Scriptures. The pope can have no power over Christ's church except by usurpation. {GC 51.1}

Romanists have persisted in bringing against Protestants the charge of heresy and willful separation from the true church. But these accusations apply rather to themselves. They are the ones who laid down the banner of Christ and departed from "the faith which was once delivered unto the saints." Jude 3. {GC 51.2}

Satan well knew that the Holy Scriptures would enable men to discern his deceptions and withstand his power. It was by the word that even the Saviour of the world had resisted his attacks. At every assault, Christ presented the shield of eternal truth, saying, "It is written." To every suggestion of the adversary, He opposed the wisdom and power of the word. In order for Satan to maintain his sway over men, and establish the authority of the papal usurper, he must keep them in ignorance of the Scriptures. The Bible would exalt God and place finite men in their true position; therefore its sacred truths must be concealed and suppressed. This logic was adopted by the Roman Church. For hundreds of years the circulation of the Bible was prohibited. The people were forbidden to read it or to have it in their houses, and unprincipled priests and prelates interpreted its teachings to sustain their pretensions. Thus the pope came to be almost universally acknowledged as the vicegerent of God on earth, endowed with authority over church and state. {GC 51.3}

The detector of error having been removed, Satan worked according to his will. Prophecy had declared that the papacy was to "think to change times and laws." Daniel 7:25. This [52] work it was not slow to attempt. To afford converts from heathenism a substitute for the worship of idols, and thus to promote their nominal acceptance of Christianity, the adoration of images and relics was gradually introduced into the Christian worship. The decree of a general council (see Appendix) finally established this system of idolatry. To complete the sacrilegious work, Rome presumed to expunge from the law of God the second commandment, forbidding image worship, and to divide the tenth commandment, in order to preserve the number. {GC 51.4}

The spirit of concession to paganism opened the way for a still further disregard of Heaven's authority. Satan, working through unconsecrated leaders of the church, tampered with the fourth commandment also, and essayed to set aside the ancient Sabbath, the day which God had blessed and sanctified (Genesis 2:2, 3), and in its stead to exalt the festival observed by the heathen as "the venerable day of the sun." This change was not at first attempted openly. In the first centuries the true Sabbath had been kept by all Christians. They were jealous for the honor of God, and, believing that His law is immutable, they zealously guarded the sacredness of its precepts. But with great subtlety Satan worked through his agents to bring about his object. That the attention of the people might be called to the Sunday, it was made a festival in honor of the resurrection of Christ. Religious services were held upon it; yet it was regarded as a day of recreation, the Sabbath being still sacredly observed. {GC 52.1} ..."

"... "To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." Isaiah 8:20. The people of God are directed to the Scriptures as their safeguard against the influence of false teachers and the delusive power of spirits of darkness. Satan employs every possible device to prevent men from obtaining a knowledge of the Bible; for its plain utterances reveal his deceptions. At every revival of God's work the prince of evil is aroused to more intense activity; he is now putting forth his utmost efforts for a final struggle against Christ and His followers. The last great delusion is soon to open before us. Antichrist is to perform his marvelous works in our sight. So closely will the counterfeit resemble the true that it will be impossible to distinguish between them except by the Holy Scriptures. By their testimony every statement and every miracle must be tested. {GC 593.1} ..."

rturner76 said:

... I am not here to change anyone's belief system, only learn more about yours. ...

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That is commendable. Any question is fine, at least by me. I was Roman Catholic for many years from birth, confirmed, full communion, and worked briefly for a specialized ministry therein and family still is, working for the local bishop in the city in which they reside. So I understand Roman Catholic doctrine from the inside, and in a special manner. Feel free to PM if you want to discuss any of that.

rturner76 said:

... I have my beliefs which I hold dear as a Roman Catholic

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Truly, I understand from a personal perspective. I do not mean to be any way insensitive to that, but simply to be true to what you are asking in an kind as manner as is possible.

rturner76 said:

... however, I must also use the gift of reason that God has bestowed on all human beings to determine the truth in any situation. Meaning, I don't subscribe to "blind faith"

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Good, as God doesn't require blind faith. He says, "Come now, and let us reason together ..."

rturner76 said:

... I have read in some of the forums on this website Biblical evidence interpreted to mean The Catholic Church is the harlot of Babylon and "The Pope" is Antichrist.

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This is true. Great Controversy again:

"... The woman (Babylon) of Revelation 17 is described as "arrayed in purple and scarlet color, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness:...and upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery, Babylon the Great, the mother of harlots." Says the prophet: "I saw the woman drunk with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus." Babylon is further declared to be "that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth." Revelation 17:4-6, 18. The power that for so many centuries maintained despotic sway over the monarchs of Christendom is Rome. The purple and scarlet color, the gold and precious stones and pearls, vividly picture the magnificence and more than kingly pomp affected by the haughty see of Rome. And no other power could be so truly declared "drunken with the blood of the saints" as that church which has so cruelly persecuted the followers of Christ. Babylon is also charged with the sin of unlawful connection with "the kings of the earth." It was by departure from the Lord, and alliance with the heathen, that the Jewish church became a harlot; and Rome, corrupting herself in like manner by seeking the support of worldly powers, receives a like condemnation. {GC 382.2}

Babylon is said to be "the mother of harlots." By her daughters must be symbolized churches that cling to her doctrines and traditions, and follow her example of sacrificing [383] the truth and the approval of God, in order to form an unlawful alliance with the world. The message of Revelation 14, announcing the fall of Babylon must apply to religious bodies that were once pure and have become corrupt. Since this message follows the warning of the judgment, it must be given in the last days; therefore it cannot refer to the Roman Church alone, for that church has been in a fallen condition for many centuries. Furthermore, in the eighteenth chapter of the Revelation the people of God are called upon to come out of Babylon. According to this scripture, many of God's people must still be in Babylon. And in what religious bodies are the greater part of the followers of Christ now to be found? Without doubt, in the various churches professing the Protestant faith. At the time of their rise these churches took a noble stand for God and the truth, and His blessing was with them. Even the unbelieving world was constrained to acknowledge the beneficent results that followed an acceptance of the principles of the gospel. In the words of the prophet to Israel: "Thy renown went forth among the heathen for thy beauty: for it was perfect through My comeliness, which I had put upon thee, saith the Lord God." But they fell by the same desire which was the curse and ruin of Israel--the desire of imitating the practices and courting the friendship of the ungodly. "Thou didst trust in thine own beauty, and playedst the harlot because of thy renown." Ezekiel 16:14, 15. {GC 382.3} ..."

"... But Romanism as a system is no more in harmony with the gospel of Christ now than at any former period in her history. The Protestant churches are in great darkness, or they would discern the signs of the times. The Roman Church is far-reaching in her plans and modes of operation. She is employing every device to extend her influence and increase her power in preparation for a fierce and determined conflict to regain control of the world, to re-establish persecution, and to undo all that Protestantism has done. Catholicism is gaining ground upon every side. [SEE APPENDIX, NOTE 10.] See the increasing number of her churches and chapels in Protestant countries. Look at the popularity of her colleges and [566] seminaries in America, so widely patronized by Protestants Look at the growth of ritualism in England, and the frequent defections to the ranks of the Catholics. These things should awaken the anxiety of all who prize the pure principles of the gospel. {GC88 565.3}

Protestants have tampered with and patronized popery; they have made compromises and concessions which papists themselves are surprised to see, and fail to understand. Men are closing their eyes to the real character of Romanism, and the dangers to be apprehended from her supremacy. The people need to be aroused to resist the advances of this most dangerous foe to civil and religious liberty. {GC88 566.1}

Many Protestants suppose that the Catholic religion is unattractive, and that its worship is a dull, meaningless round of ceremony. Here they mistake. While Romanism is based upon deception, it is not a coarse and clumsy imposture. The religious service of the Romish Church is a most impressive ceremonial. Its gorgeous display and solemn rites fascinate the senses of the people, and silence the voice of reason and of conscience. The eye is charmed. Magnificent churches, imposing processions, golden altars, jeweled shrines, choice paintings, and exquisite sculpture appeal to the love of beauty. The ear also is captivated. The music is unsurpassed. The rich notes of the deep-toned organ, blending with the melody of many voices as it swells through the lofty domes and pillared aisles of her grand cathedrals, cannot fail to impress the mind with awe and reverence. {GC88 566.2}

This outward splendor, pomp, and ceremony, that only mocks the longings of the sin-sick soul, is an evidence of inward corruption. The religion of Christ needs not such attractions to recommend it. In the light shining from the cross, true Christianity appears so pure and lovely that no external decorations can enhance its true worth. It is the beauty of holiness, a meek and quiet spirit, which is of value with God. {GC88 566.3} ..."

"... Thus the message of the third angel will be proclaimed. As the time comes for it to be given with greatest power, the Lord will work through humble instruments, leading the minds of those who consecrate themselves to His service. The laborers will be qualified rather by the unction of His Spirit than by the training of literary institutions. Men of faith and prayer will be constrained to go forth with holy zeal, declaring the words which God gives them. The sins of Babylon will be laid open. The fearful results of enforcing the observances of the church by civil authority, the inroads of spiritualism, the stealthy but rapid progress of the papal power--all will be unmasked. By these solemn warnings the people will be stirred. Thousands upon thousands will listen who have never heard words like these. In amazement they [607] hear the testimony that Babylon is the church, fallen because of her errors and sins, because of her rejection of the truth sent to her from heaven. As the people go to their former teachers with the eager inquiry, Are these things so? the ministers present fables, prophesy smooth things, to soothe their fears and quiet the awakened conscience. But since many refuse to be satisfied with the mere authority of men and demand a plain "Thus saith the Lord," the popular ministry, like the Pharisees of old, filled with anger as their authority is questioned, will denounce the message as of Satan and stir up the sin-loving multitudes to revile and persecute those who proclaim it. {GC 606.2} ..."

Again, this was the position of the Reformers, and those before them, also.

rturner76 said:

... Not to mention all of the issues that I've seen brought up about statues being idols, the veneration of Saints and loved ones who have passed and some other things I won't try to list them all. ...

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Yes, best to consider one thing at a time. For instance, Hyper-dulia:

Hyper-dulia (a made up term):

It even includes "worship" which is "in common" with that of worship of God, and so much more.

"...the Most August Virgin Mary ... this Divine Mother... Yet our manner of praying to the Blessed Virgin has something in common with our worship of God, so that the Church even addresses to her the words with which we pray to God: "Have mercy on sinners."

… the heavenly choirs, "above whom the Holy Mother of God is exalted." ...” Augustissimae Virginis Mariae (September 12, 1897) - Augustissimae Virginis Mariae (September 12, 1897) | LEO XIII | LEO XIII & On the Confraternity of the Holy Rosary - Papal Encyclicals - On the Confraternity of the Holy Rosary - Papal Encyclicals

rturner76 said:

One thing our beliefs do agree about is the requirement of repentance and obedience (meaning no free ticket to heaven for the wicked who have claimed to believe). You must live your faith.

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In outward profession there appears to be agreement, yet in deeper Roman Catholic theology it changes considerably at this point and there is then considerable difference. Too complicated to get into in a single post.

rturner76 said:

... So the real question is, are the things I mentioned about the RCC official teachings, or are they commonly held beliefs by a certain percentage of church members?

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Seventh-day Adventists who adhere to the Spirit of Prophecy and/or Testimony of Jesus, acknowledge the things above and/or in this reply. Those who reject it, are in harmony with Roman Catholicism, even though they are called "SDA":

"... That night I dreamed that I was in Battle Creek looking out from the side glass at the door and saw a company marching up to the house, two and two. They looked stern and determined. I knew them well and turned to open the parlor door to receive them, but thought I would look again. The scene was changed. The company now presented the appearance of a Catholic procession. One bore in his hand a cross, another a reed. And as they approached, the one carrying a reed made a circle around the house, saying three times: "This house is proscribed. The goods must be confiscated. They have spoken against our holy order." Terror seized me, and I ran through the house, out of the north door, and found myself in the midst of a company, some of whom I knew, but I dared not speak a word to them for fear of being betrayed. I tried to seek a retired spot where I might weep and pray without meeting eager, inquisitive eyes wherever I turned. I repeated frequently: "If I could only understand this! If they will tell me what I have said or what I have done!" {1T 577.2}

I wept and prayed much as I saw our goods confiscated. I tried to read sympathy or pity for me in the looks of those around me, and marked the countenances of several whom I thought would speak to me and comfort me if they did not fear that they would be observed by others. I made one attempt to escape from the crowd, but seeing that I was watched, I concealed my intentions. I commenced weeping aloud, and saying: "If they would only tell me what I have done or what I have said!" My husband, who was sleeping in a bed in the same room, heard me weeping aloud and awoke me. My pillow was wet with tears, and a sad depression of spirits was upon me. {1T 578.1} ..."

"... The enemy of souls has sought to bring in the supposition that a great reformation was to take place among Seventh-day Adventists, and that this reformation would consist in giving up the doctrines which stand as the pillars of our faith, and engaging in a process of reorganization. Were this reformation to take place, what would result? -- The principles of truth that God in His wisdom has given to the remnant [40] church would be discarded. Our religion would be changed. The fundamental principles that have sustained the work for the last fifty years would be accounted as error. A new organization would be established. Books of a new order would be written. A system of intellectual philosophy would be introduced. The founders of this system would go into the cities and do a wonderful work. The Sabbath, of course, would be lightly regarded, as also the God who created it. Nothing would be allowed to stand in the way of the new movement. The leaders would teach that virtue is better than vice, but God being removed, they would place their dependence on human power, which, without God, is worthless. Their foundation would be built on the sand, and storm and tempest would sweep away the structure. {SpTB07 39.3}

Who has authority to begin such a movement? We have our Bibles. We have our experience, attested to by the miraculous working of the Holy Spirit. We have a truth that admits of no compromise. Shall we not repudiate everything that is not in harmony with this truth? {SpTB07 40.1} ..."

rturner76 said:

... I have met some people on here who believe we can't know who these references in Revalations refer to and some who say it is obvious who they point to. ...

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If they claim to be "Seventh-day Adventists", then either 1 of 3 things is possible. [1] They are simply ignorant of what is actually in print (Scripture or SoP/ToJ), [2] They are knowing but choose to ignore what is written (Scripture, SoP/ToJ) [3] They are deceptive, knowing for their varied reasons.

Only [1] would be a real Seventh-day Adventist.

rturner76 said:

Any thoughts on this? This is your area so I wouldn't endeavor to tell you how to respond, however, I respectfully request that people answer with facts, Biblical references, and official church doctrine or statements that 7th Day teachers stand behind rather than individual personal opinion.

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Sounds good. I hope to have done that for you.

rturner76 said:

I never met a 7th day that was shy about quoting the Bible.

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I have, but they fell into 1-3 in the previous comment.

rturner76 said:

Thank you for your patience regarding this rather long winded question

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Not at all. Hopefully this answer was not too laborious. I tried to be succinct with facts, evidence without being vague.

rturner76 said:

I find some of the Mary stuff can go too far. There is one group of Catholics that call her "Coredemtrix." Now that is not in and doctrine but some have boosted her way up there. Not saying this is true, I respect your traditions. What they say makes her do important is she made a choice on faith like Christ did the night he sweat blood. He said "not my will but yours be done." That got her a huge upgrade because then people stretched it to "If mary never would have made her choice........etc.

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Roman Catholics call Mary "Co-Redemptrix", etc. According to scripture, Mary is deceased, and returned to dust, awaiting her resurrection.

rturner76 said:

... I fully agree that people take that way too far with Marion devotions etc.

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Jesuits in particular.

rturner76 said:

About revelation, many RCCs even agree that John is writing about Rome and it can't be denied that the RCC was/is the last Roman institution. ...

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Hans Urs Von Balthasar, in his "Casta Meretrix" theology for one.

rturner76 said:

... I'm not saying this because I don't know bit some say Babylon in the USA the way the military is everywhere on the globe and people in most countries teach English in public school. ...

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The United States would be represented in the Beast from the Earth of Revelation 13:11, and is also the false prophet (Revelation 16:13, 19:20, 20:10) for the Beast of the Sea in Revelation 13:1; and is also known as the Harlots daughters (apostate protestant churches), in Revelation 17.

Thus the "two (obvious) beasts" of Revelation 13 are working together.

rturner76 said:

Still I don't refute the connection to Rome.

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Rome, the city of seven hills, as one identifier, know as the Septimontium.

rturner76 said:

I am posting a question in fellowship. I have no intention of debating anyone's answer. I am just curious about one philosophy I have heard from many &th Day believers mostly on this particular website.

Is it the official doctrine of the Adventist movement that the Catholic Church is anathema? Secondly and related to that question, is it an official doctrine that "The Pope" is or may be Antichrist? If so, is it taught that he is either THE Antichrist or A antichrist?

I am not here to change anyone's belief system, only learn more about yours. I have my beliefs which I hold dear as a Roman Catholic however, I must also use the gift of reason that God has bestowed on all human beings to determine the truth in any situation. Meaning, I don't subscribe to "blind faith"

I have read in some of the forums on this website Biblical evidence interpreted to mean The Catholic Church is the harlot of Babylon and "The Pope" is Antichrist. Not to mention all of the issues that I've seen brought up about statues being idols, the veneration of Saints and loved ones who have passed and some other things I won't try to list them all.

One thing our beliefs do agree about is the requirement of repentance and obedience (meaning no free ticket to heaven for the wicked who have claimed to believe). You must live your faith.

So the real question is, are the things I mentioned about the RCC official teachings, or are they commonly held beliefs by a certain percentage of church members?

I have met some people on here who believe we can't know who these references in Revalations refer to and some who say it is obvious who they point to.

Any thoughts on this? This is your area so I wouldn't endeavor to tell you how to respond, however, I respectfully request that people answer with facts, Biblical references, and official church doctrine or statements that 7th Day teachers stand behind rather than individual personal opinion.

I never met a 7th day that was shy about quoting the Bible.

Thank you for your patience regarding this rather long winded question

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OK. So have your bible open.

First lets go to Daniel 2. What I am going to do is give you an explanation as to why we see the Papacy as the Antichrist power. Just to clarify, the Antichrist isn't really a single individual but it is a system which has a leader.

So in Daniel 2 we read about a King named Nebuchadnezzar who had a dream which troubled him and eventually Daniel was called to interpret this dream. The dream that Nebuchadnezzar dreamed, was a prophecy concerning the successful of kingdoms from his time, down to the time of the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. So in that Dream he saw an Image with a head of Gold representing Babylon, Chest and Arms of Silver representing Medo-Persia, Belly and thighs of Brass representing Greece and legs of Iron representing Rome. The good thing about prophecy like this is that we can use history to help us identify this Kingdom, so this succession of World Power so far, is correct. So after the legs of Iron is a kingdom of Iron mixed with Clay which is the feet and toes and then the Kingdom of God represented by a Stone smashed the image at the feet and God's Government is set up. Now lets go to Daniel 7. Daniel 7 is going to repeat this entire prophecy and give some more details especially as it relates to what happens in the feet of this image.

So Daniel 7 starts of by mentioning 4 beats which are synonymous to the 4 metals in the Image of Daniel 2. Each detail of the beast is important to help identify who that beast represent and I can share that with you if you will like to know. I want to jump to the fourth beast:

Dan 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

Iron Teeth matches up with the Iron Legs so we are talking about the Iron Monarchy of Rome otherwise called Pagan Rome which was ruling the world at the time that Jesus was born.

Dan 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

Now this little horn we identify as the Papacy. Lets look at some more verses to give more information about this little horn.

Dan 7:19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;
Dan 7:20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.
Dan 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
Dan 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
Dan 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
Dan 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

So let me share with you some History. The Pagan Roman Empire came to an end in 476AD I believe and was divided into ten provinces. During the 4th century the Pagan Roman Empire accepted Christianity as the official religion of the Kingdom by Emperor Constantine. Eventually the Bishop of Rome or the Pope would become the second in command to the Emperor of Rome. When the Roman Empire fell the Bishop of Rome wanted to impose their religion and enforce them in all ten provinces but 3 provinces resisted. These were the Heruli, the Vandals and the Ostrogoths. The three provinces were wiped out during bloody wars as they resisted the Pope. In 538AD Emperor Justinian gave over all power to the Bishop of Rome in an effort to reclaim the unity and power of the Roman Empire as it once was.

Now we are told that the little horn rules for a time, times and the dividing of time. This is prophetic time which is why it is written that way. A time is one literal year. In Daniel 4:16, 23 we are told there about when the King are grass for seven years, but you will notice the KJV says seven times. So a time is a year. Times is 2 years. The Dividing of time is 1/2 year. So this gives 3 1/2 years. In bible prophecy, the time is not literal. So we use the suggestion from scripture and see how it fits.

Eze 4:6 And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year.
Num 14:34 After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise.

So if we take a literal day to mean 1 prophetic year, then 3 1/2 years would be 1260 literal days which would be 1260 literal years.
Well it just so happens to 1260 years after 538AD when the Papacy was established as the number 1 power in Rome, reigning throughout the centuries, The Pope was taken captive during the French Revolution in 1798 and were stripped of their power, property, some wealth and more. That is one very strong indicator to prove the identity of that little horn as the Papacy and there is more. I didn't think I would be tying this long but this is an indepth study and I left out quite a bit of detail. I can give you the link to a presentation discussing all of this and more to make it even clearer if you are interested. I have not even gotten to the Book of Revelation yet.

rturner76 said:

In the time before the Church split East and Roman, and it is still this way in Orthodoxy, the Patriarch in each country is the leader of that country's "Church" For example there is the Russian Orthodox Church who has its own bishops, seminaries and "Patriarch" No Patriarch has sway over any country's affairs but their own.

In the west, all the "churches" like Italy, Spain, England etc. agreed to allow The Patriarch of Rome be the Patriarch of "THE Church" the East had a Patriarch in Byzantium but he did not (could not) assert any real authority over the other Patriarchs of the Eastern or Orthodox Churches. He would lead but not "rule" the Eastern Orthodox Church.

Having said all that. what does the 7th-day community say about the Orthodox Churches? They do not fall under the jurisdiction of "The Pope" and as I say, they have their own autonomous leadership system. Since they are not a part of the Roman Catholic Church, do they remain a part of the elect?

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I believe, from what you're saying here, that you're under a mistaken apprehension of what is being said. Adventists do not believe that members of the Catholic church are excluded as possible members of the elect as we fallen humans do not know exactly who comprises the elect. Only God knows that. We believe the Catholic system is corrupt, but that there are honest followers of God in all denominations. Just like Adam and Eve were not excluded from being saved just because they were deceived neither are those in the Catholic church, any version of it, who unknowingly follow a false system of worship. God, through His Spirit, will bring those honest ones out of the deceptions the devil has brought about.

The Bible Interprets Its Own Symbols

In the Bible, there are four beasts.
They are recorded in Daniel 2 and 7
and Revelation 13 and 17.

1 head of gold. Chaldean Empire.
(626 BC-539 b.c)

2 breast and arms of silver Medo-
Persian Empire (550-330 b.c.)

3 belly and thighs of brass greco-macedonia
-Alexander the Great (336-323 b.c.)

4 two legs of iron-the roman empire-capitals
Rome and Constantinople.(31 b.c.-a.d. 476)
The Roman Empire.

"having seven heads and ten horns"

There was only [one head] described
on the lion, [one] for the bear, [one] for
the fourth beast —but the third beast,
the leopard, had [four heads]

Alexander died young in 323 b.c., his king-
dom was divided into (four major parts)

Making seven heads in all. And out of this
great and dreadful fourth beast grew 10 horns!
-

This beast had a deadly wound (Rev. 13:3).
That means the beast ceased altogether
to exist or function as it had since 31 b.c.

Yet its deadly wound was later healed, after which
(verse 5) it continued to exist another 1,260 years!

10 kingdoms would came up from the roman
empire,or territory, the 10 horns [that grow out]
of the 4th beast.

The destruction of Rome was inflicted by
barbarian tribes from the north and east.

Three different Germanic tribes destroyed Rome’s
secular leadership; they also overthrew the bishop
of Rome and his religion.

(first 3 horns)

The three horns picture three governments
(the Heruli, the Vandals and the Ostrogoths)

Heruli - Wikipedia
Herules - Wikipedia
Vandals - Wikipedia
Vandals - Wikipedia
Ostrogoths - Wikipedia
Ostrogoths - Wikipedia

They where not riden by the church, not
of rome, but controled in its territory ,
after rome colasped, and in sence died.

"behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes
of man, and a mouth speaking great things."

“look was more stout than his fellows.” another
government, actually smaller, yet dominating.

"and he shall subdue three kings. "

(4th horn) a “little horn”—a great false
church (woman) coming on the scene
after three horns are plucked up.

The church guided every succeeding
resurrection of this Roman Empire.

The last seven horns comprise a church-state
relationship. History where the woman [church]
rode, or steared [having some control] with beast.

[1st] resurrection of the roman empire

Justinian in 554AD. the pope recognized as the
supreme religious leader and empowered him.
Justinian I - Wikipedia

He considered himself a Roman Caesar.
His motto “One empire, one church, one law.”
The former Roman Empire became his state,
the Roman constitution his law, and Roman
Catholicism his religion. (Took the image of)

The bishop of Rome inherited the scholars
and the scholarship of the Roman Empire.

Under Justinian, an individual was either
Catholic or a heathen.
Excerpts from the Justinian Code
Corpus Juris Civilis - Wikipedia

The pope proclaimed the emperor as the one,
true ruler of the Roman Empire, and in turn the
emperor defended the Roman Catholic religion
from all outside threats. Ridding the land of all
forms of non-Catholic religion.

Emperor Justinian made this Imperial Restoration
official in a.d. 554, by the Pragmatic Sanction.
Pragmatic sanction - Wikipedia

Both halves of the empire were now united.
For the first time in history, the Roman Catholic
Church was ruling over the state, instead of the
state controlling the church. The deadly wound
inflicted by the Goths was healed.

[2nd] resurrection - Charlemagne crowned by
the pope in 800AD. the "Father of Europe"
Charlemagne - Wikipedia

[3rd] resurrection - Otto the Great crowned
by the pope in 962AD.
Otto I, Holy Roman Emperor - Wikipedia

[4th] resurrection - Charles V crowned
by the pope in 1520AD.
Charles V, Holy Roman Emperor - Wikipedia

[5th] resurrection - Napoleon crowned
by the pope in 1805
Napoleon - Wikipedia

[6th] resurrection - Hitler/Mussolini
empowered by Pope Pius XII.

7th resurrection - forming in Europe now.

rturner76 said:

I am posting a question in fellowship. I have no intention of debating anyone's answer. I am just curious about one philosophy I have heard from many &th Day believers mostly on this particular website.

Is it the official doctrine of the Adventist movement that the Catholic Church is anathema? Secondly and related to that question, is it an official doctrine that "The Pope" is or may be Antichrist? If so, is it taught that he is either THE Antichrist or A antichrist?

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Antichrist is first mentioned in 1 John and that is long before the Pope ever came into being.

John is the only writer that uses that term.

The doctrines of the Seventh-day Adventist church are posted online at https://www.adventist.org/fileadmin...rticles/official-statements/28Beliefs-Web.pdf

Sabbath is there but neither "Pope" or "antichrist" is there.

Historically all Protestant leaders referred to the office of the pope as antichrist and that is something you find in SDA documents. But not as a fundamental belief in the 28.

rturner76 said:

One thing our beliefs do agree about is the requirement of repentance and obedience (meaning no free ticket to heaven for the wicked who have claimed to believe). You must live your faith.

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good point - as Matt 7 states "by their fruits you shall know them" so not OSAS (no once-saved-always-saved)

I have met some people on here who believe we can't know who these references in Revalations refer to and some who say it is obvious who they point to.

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The little horn of Daniel 7 and one of the entities in Rev 13 and in Rev 17 have all been associated with the papacy (not anyone person) in Adventist topics on prophecy.

rturner76 said:

Any thoughts on this? This is your area so I wouldn't endeavor to tell you how to respond, however, I respectfully request that people answer with facts,

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good post. Thanks for adding this topic.

Daniel 7 and Rev 12 both reference a 1260 year period of time considered to be the dark ages in Europe. That is the "key detail" that then points to the Papacy in my POV since anything else would be an argument that someone did something amiss in the Papacy -- people have been doing things amiss all through history and they are not all the entity of Dan 7 or 8 or Rev 13 or 17.

If you start with chapter 3 http://www.end-times-prophecy.org/GreatControversy.pdf you will see some common discussion points and history review that is well known among Adventists -- (as background on what has been said in the past)

rturner76 said:

Having said all that. what does the 7th-day community say about the Orthodox Churches? They do not fall under the jurisdiction of "The Pope" and as I say, they have their own autonomous leadership system. Since they are not a part of the Roman Catholic Church, do they remain a part of the elect?

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Catholics and non-Catholics are all included in the group of saints going to heaven - not everyone in any denomination is saved and not everyone in any denomination is lost.

rturner76 said:

It's like west side east side rivalry and I'm sure people have been killed in the process. That is what I hate about being an RCC is the history of forced conversions and conquest. They said it's ok because Christ said "I come with a sword." He could have been talking about sinners, not kingdoms.

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No doubt a lot of mistakes made in the past. But how many of them "infallible" ? How many come at the direction of an infallible ecumenical council? How many of them enforced and affirmed in infallible canon law?

Catholic Digest was asked to comment on that - and there was a Fr. Ken Ryan that pointed out in regard to their historic documented act of "exterminating" certain people groups in the name of Jesus - that whether you consider it a good or bad thing depends on your point of view.

rturner76 said:

About revelation, many RCCs even agree that John is writing about Rome and it can't be denied that the RCC was/is the last Roman institution. I'm not saying this because I don't know bit some say Babylon in the USA the way the military is everywhere on the globe and people in most countries teach English in public school.

Still I don't refute the connection to Rome.

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I appears that the reference in Peter's letter to "babylon" was a reference to his being in Rome.

BobRyan said:

I appears that the reference in Peter's letter to "babylon" was a reference to his being in Rome.

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I know many take it that way. I have always taken it that Peter was in actual Babylon (modern day Iraq) where there was a very sizable Jewish community (who would later on write the Babylonian Talmud), while Rome had a relatively small Jewish community. Peter was sent to Jews while Paul went to gentiles.

Dave-W said:

I know many take it that way. I have always taken it that Peter was in actual Babylon (modern day Iraq) where there was a very sizable Jewish community (who would later on write the Babylonian Talmud), while Rome had a relatively small Jewish community. Peter was sent to Jews while Paul went to gentiles.

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It is interesting that the Catholic position is that "Babylon" in the Bible - is "Rome".

Was Peter in Rome?

===========================
"Boettner is also wrong when he claims, “there is no allusion to Rome in either of [Peter’s] epistles.” There is, in the greeting at the end of the first epistle: “The Church here in Babylon, united with you by God’s election, sends you her greeting, and so does my son, Mark” (1 Pet. 5:13, Knox). Babylon is a code word for Rome. It is used that way multiple times in works like the Sibylline Oracles (5:159f), the Apocalypse of Baruch (2:1), and 4 Esdras (3:1). Eusebius Pamphilius, in The Chronicle, composed about A.D. 303, noted that “It is said that Peter’s first epistle, in which he makes mention of Mark, was composed at Rome itself; and that he himself indicates this, referring to the city figuratively as Babylon.”

Consider now the other New Testament citations: “Another angel, a second, followed, saying, ‘Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great, she who made all nations drink the wine of her impure passion’” (Rev. 14:8). “The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell, and God remembered great Babylon, to make her drain the cup of the fury of his wrath” (Rev. 16:19). “[A]nd on her forehead was written a name of mystery: ‘Babylon the great, mother of harlots and of earth’s abominations’” (Rev. 17:5). “And he called out with a mighty voice, ‘Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great’” (Rev. 18:2). “[T]hey will stand far off, in fear of her torment, and say, ‘Alas! alas! thou great city, thou mighty city, Babylon! In one hour has thy judgment come’” (Rev. 18:10). “So shall Babylon the great city be thrown down with violence” (Rev. 18:21).

These references can’t be to the one-time capital of the Babylonian empire. That Babylon had been reduced to an inconsequential village by the march of years, military defeat, and political subjugation; it was no longer a “great city.” From the New Testament perspective, the only candidates for the “great city” mentioned in Revelation are Rome and Jerusalem."
========================================end quote

BobRyan said: ↑
It is interesting that the Catholic position is that "Babylon" in the Bible - is "Rome".

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rturner76 said:

That is the assumption for many but I believe the "official" stance on Revalations is that there is no way to know for sure what John is talking about. It may be Rome, it may be a kingdom yet to come. It's good to study but we shouldn't take literal meaning from it.

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The claim is that the term "Babylon" is symbolic for "Rome" so then not "literal Babylon" in Iraq. That is an example of not taking the term literally.

rturner76 said:

When I first head that it is widely believed that the Roman Church is represented in there, I went to more than one Preist literally asking "Is the Catholic Church the harlot of Babylon?" So they definitely could have been saying that to discourage me from seeing The Church in that light

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I think almost all the Protestant reformers took the "harlot of Babylon" term you mention from Rev 17 as applicable to the RCC but I don't know of any Catholic source that claims that same thing. The most I see from them is that they claim the term "Babylon" applies to the city of Rome as it was the "great city" of John's day.

Historicist interpreters commonly used the phrase "harlot of Babylon" to refer to the Catholic Church. Reformation writers from Martin Luther (1483–1546, author of On the Babylonian Captivity of the Church), John Calvin (1509–1564), and John Knox (1510–1572, author of The First Blast of the Trumpet Against the Monstruous Regiment of Women) taught this association.[37][38]
harlot of Babylon - Wikipedia

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And the protestant reformers where using the "Historicist" model of prophetic interpretation (not preterist - but historicist)

Historicist: ""This is the most ancient system of interpretation in both Jewish and Christian traditions."
..
Almost all Protestant Reformers from the Reformation into the 19th century held historicist views.[3]
Historicism (Christianity) - Wikipedia

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rturner76 said:

but I took it as we can't really know for sure who represents what other than our own interpretations and there is no way to effectively cross-reference it with other books of the Bible. There is no codebook or key that decodes the book for everyone's understanding.

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On the contrary - Revelation borrows heavily from the already understood books such as Daniel and Isaiah .. Daniel 9 uses symbols to predict the first coming of Christ and that is well understood.

Daniel 7 points out the timeline for the 1260 years of dark ages that can be seen in Rev 11 and 12 as the same period of time that happens at some point after Jesus ascends to heaven. All of it matching up but all of it in symbolic terms.