LDS Scathing Lawsuit Seeks Punitive Damages From Mormon Church

Daniel Marsh said:

https://www.xristian.org/ft/mormbomtext.pdf
http://cdn.loc.gov/service/rbc/rbc0001/2015/2015gen34953c1/2015gen34953c1.pdf
http://www.latterdaytruth.org/pdf/100030.pdf

above is first edition of BOM, no copy right on them. Also, JS was the author.

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Only because of a legality. Joseph Smith did not write the Book of Mormon.

He is the way said:

Only because of a legality. Joseph Smith did not write the Book of Mormon.

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Basically, American Intellectual Property Law is a Lovecraftian nightmare of requirements, restrictions, and technicalities.

Ever doodle your favorite cartoon character or make a mixtape for your pals? Yeah... that's all technically illegal.

Daniel Marsh said:

https://www.xristian.org/ft/mormbomtext.pdf
http://cdn.loc.gov/service/rbc/rbc0001/2015/2015gen34953c1/2015gen34953c1.pdf
http://www.latterdaytruth.org/pdf/100030.pdf

above is first edition of BOM, no copy right on them. Also, JS was the author.

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Correction: JS was the translator. He could not have authored a childrens book, let alone a 531 page history of a family that left Jerusalem in 600bc and traveled by ship to the Americas and ended the book in Mexico City in 400ad. Think about it. JS is not the author.

mmksparbud said:

Actually, you do not have to read anything other than the writings of JS Himself. Likewise, all you have to do is read the bible. Both will tell you what is real and what is not---IF YOU LISTEN TO THE REAL HOLY SPIRIT. A burning chest is not the Holy Spirit. All first Christians were converted by the OT scriptures.
No one needs to read all the bad stuff about JS, reading His words is enough to know, he is not a prophet of God, and reading the bible magnifies that assurance---as it has for many ex-Mormons.

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So give me one hint of JS writings that are so awful that you know they are not of God?

Peter1000 said:

So give me one hint of JS writings that are so awful that you know they are not of God?

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I prayed quite earnestly before beginning to read it. I already told you that within a few sentences I had a very strong awareness of the differences in writing between the bible and the BOM. I struggled and got through it and some of the rest of his writings---except for the parts that are directly from the KJV, they read like the Quran, very childish in nature. With the bible there is depth. There is none with his writings. I've also already mentioned that when God speaks to people, He speaks to them in their own language, set in their culture. His aim is to be understood by the people of the time. He certainly is not going to speak to someone in 1830's America in the language of an English king of the 1600's! That is just the beginning., Certainly God never made any prophet look into a hat to figure out the writings of some ancient document supposedly written through the Holy Spirit. When God wants to say something to a prophet He says it to them. When there is something that needs deciphering, such as the writing on the wall in Babylon, He tells the prophet what the writing means. If it is a dream that needs interpreting, He tells His prophet what it means. Not one of His prophets ever wrote a book that is proven to be totally false---such as the book of Abraham. His prophets have never made up stories about the Father ever having been human, or dying or that He is flesh and bone, that he needs wife/wives---they do not go against the stated doctrines of the bible. They say that we existed before we were born, the bible says no such thing nor even hints at it. They do not make up stories about people and events that never took place--such as the Nephites. I am sorry, but JS is simply not a man of God and His writings are false. All anyone has to do is read his writings with an open mind and with the true Holy Spirit.

mmksparbud said:

I prayed quite earnestly before beginning to read it. I already told you that within a few sentences I had a very strong awareness of the differences in writing between the bible and the BOM. I struggled and got through it and some of the rest of his writings---except for the parts that are directly from the KJV, they read like the Quran, very childish in nature. With the bible there is depth. There is none with his writings. I've also already mentioned that when God speaks to people, He speaks to them in their own language, set in their culture. His aim is to be understood by the people of the time. He certainly is not going to speak to someone in 1830's America in the language of an English king of the 1600's! That is just the beginning., Certainly God never made any prophet look into a hat to figure out the writings of some ancient document supposedly written through the Holy Spirit. When God wants to say something to a prophet He says it to them. When there is something that needs deciphering, such as the writing on the wall in Babylon, He tells the prophet what the writing means. If it is a dream that needs interpreting, He tells His prophet what it means. Not one of His prophets ever wrote a book that is proven to be totally false---such as the book of Abraham. His prophets have never made up stories about the Father ever having been human, or dying or that He is flesh and bone, that he needs wife/wives---they do not go against the stated doctrines of the bible. They say that we existed before we were born, the bible says no such thing nor even hints at it. They do not make up stories about people and events that never took place--such as the Nephites. I am sorry, but JS is simply not a man of God and His writings are false. All anyone has to do is read his writings with an open mind and with the true Holy Spirit.

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I also prayed and read the Book of Mormon. I found deep meanings in the scriptures therein and a great witness of our Lord Jesus Christ. Perhaps you already had your mind made up before you read it. People tend to see just what they want to see. I know as certain as I live that there was a premortal life.
You said: "They say that we existed before we were born, the bible says no such thing nor even hints at it."

It does talk about it and the judgment of God.:

(New Testament | Romans 9:11 - 16)

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

He is the way said:

I also prayed and read the Book of Mormon. I found deep meanings in the scriptures therein and a great witness of our Lord Jesus Christ. Perhaps you already had your mind made up before you read it. People tend to see just what they want to see. I know as certain as I live that there was a premortal life.
You said: "They say that we existed before we were born, the bible says no such thing nor even hints at it."

It does talk about it and the judgment of God.:

(New Testament | Romans 9:11 - 16)

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

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What I did not have was anyone telling me from a little child, and made to chant incessantly, that the BOM is true and that JS is a prophet of God. I had no one to tell me for years on end constantly that all this stuff is from God and is true. So when I read it for the 1st time as an adult who had studied many other religions, including the occult, I had an open mind -- not a brainwashed one. You see what you want to see, what you have been told to see, your whole entire life.

mmksparbud said:

What I did not have was anyone telling me from a little child, and made to chant incessantly, that the BOM is true and that JS is a prophet of God. I had no one to tell me for years on end constantly that all this stuff is from God and is true. So when I read it for the 1st time as an adult who had studied many other religions, including the occult, I had an open mind -- not a brainwashed one. You see what you want to see, what you have been told to see, your whole entire life.

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You said: "They say that we existed before we were born, the bible says no such thing nor even hints at it."

Really?

(New Testament | Romans 9:11 - 16)

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

He is the way said:

You said: "They say that we existed before we were born, the bible says no such thing nor even hints at it."

Really?

(New Testament | Romans 9:11 - 16)

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

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You read what you want to into this because---see post #107

Peter1000 said:

It is not true.

We cannot give one the "meat" until they are ready for it. Ask Paul as he tried to give the "meat" to the Corinthians?

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If you knew what Paul meant, you wouldn't be employing it here in this way.

Meat is not some super special extra nifty teaching that only the properly initiated can experience. That's how the ancient Gnostics thought.

Rather it has to do with the Corinthians being new in Christ, young, like infants, and thus so fresh in their departure from their former ways; and now fighting among themselves saying things like "I am of Paul" and "I am of Apollos", ignorant of the unity of faith in Christ and also struggling in their conscience.

Read the entire 8th chapter of 1 Corinthians, and then also 1 Corinthians 10:23-33

This isn't about keeping things secret, but about recognizing matters of conscience--of weaker conscience and stronger conscience. What should it matter to me if a piece of meat was offered to Zeus? Zeus isn't real; just another "god" among other "gods"--false, unreal, and imaginary. It's just a piece of meat, it's just food. It has not spiritual power or significance. Whether I eat or don't eat is up to me, though I should be mindful of the weakness of others who may be struggling with this more than I am. So it means nothing to me; but for those ancient Corinthians, having grown up in a culture and environment which told them that the gods are real and food offered to the gods means something--learning to adjust one's thinking will take time, and growth, growing in maturity in the faith. And so, I know my conscience is free, but rather than thinking only of myself I must think of others.

It's the same reason why I wouldn't drink alcohol around a recovering alcoholic. Not because there's anything wrong with alcohol, but I should be mindful of the struggles of those around me.

That's milk and meat.

-CryptoLutheran

He is the way said:

You said: "They say that we existed before we were born, the bible says no such thing nor even hints at it."

Really?

(New Testament | Romans 9:11 - 16)

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

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Yep, though neither Jacob nor Esau existed yet, yet God in His wisdom predestined that Jacob would be the child of promise, not Esau; and that the blessings of Abraham would go through Jacob and his offspring--to Israel. This was in accordance with God's glorious predestined purpose and plan. God did not choose Jacob over Esau because of anything either did, because God had already ordained that the blessing would be through Jacob before either had been born. It wasn't by the merit of work of Jacob or Esau, but by God's glorious purpose. Which is why God says ,"I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion." For it was not Jacob's merit, nor Esau's folly; but by the predestined election of God of Jacob, that through Jacob the promise and the blessing be given.

For it would be through Jacob, and Jacob's son Judah which would come Jesse, the father of David, and to David the promise of the Messiah, Jesus. And thus would be fulfilled the promise of God to Abraham, that all nations would be blessed, and that Abraham would be the father of many nations. For this would come by the Seed of Abraham, who is Jesus Christ, the Son of David, the Lion of the Tribe of Judah.

-CryptoLutheran

mmksparbud said:

I prayed quite earnestly before beginning to read it. I already told you that within a few sentences I had a very strong awareness of the differences in writing between the bible and the BOM. I struggled and got through it and some of the rest of his writings---except for the parts that are directly from the KJV, they read like the Quran, very childish in nature. With the bible there is depth. There is none with his writings. I've also already mentioned that when God speaks to people, He speaks to them in their own language, set in their culture. His aim is to be understood by the people of the time. He certainly is not going to speak to someone in 1830's America in the language of an English king of the 1600's! That is just the beginning., Certainly God never made any prophet look into a hat to figure out the writings of some ancient document supposedly written through the Holy Spirit. When God wants to say something to a prophet He says it to them. When there is something that needs deciphering, such as the writing on the wall in Babylon, He tells the prophet what the writing means. If it is a dream that needs interpreting, He tells His prophet what it means. Not one of His prophets ever wrote a book that is proven to be totally false---such as the book of Abraham. His prophets have never made up stories about the Father ever having been human, or dying or that He is flesh and bone, that he needs wife/wives---they do not go against the stated doctrines of the bible. They say that we existed before we were born, the bible says no such thing nor even hints at it. They do not make up stories about people and events that never took place--such as the Nephites. I am sorry, but JS is simply not a man of God and His writings are false. All anyone has to do is read his writings with an open mind and with the true Holy Spirit.

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OK, leaving aside all of that, which is obviously true to you, what exact writing did you read that was so awful that you knew it was not from God. Give me an example of that writing?

ViaCrucis said:

If you knew what Paul meant, you wouldn't be employing it here in this way.

Meat is not some super special extra nifty teaching that only the properly initiated can experience. That's how the ancient Gnostics thought.

Rather it has to do with the Corinthians being new in Christ, young, like infants, and thus so fresh in their departure from their former ways; and now fighting among themselves saying things like "I am of Paul" and "I am of Apollos", ignorant of the unity of faith in Christ and also struggling in their conscience.

Read the entire 8th chapter of 1 Corinthians, and then also 1 Corinthians 10:23-33

This isn't about keeping things secret, but about recognizing matters of conscience--of weaker conscience and stronger conscience. What should it matter to me if a piece of meat was offered to Zeus? Zeus isn't real; just another "god" among other "gods"--false, unreal, and imaginary. It's just a piece of meat, it's just food. It has not spiritual power or significance. Whether I eat or don't eat is up to me, though I should be mindful of the weakness of others who may be struggling with this more than I am. So it means nothing to me; but for those ancient Corinthians, having grown up in a culture and environment which told them that the gods are real and food offered to the gods means something--learning to adjust one's thinking will take time, and growth, growing in maturity in the faith. And so, I know my conscience is free, but rather than thinking only of myself I must think of others.

It's the same reason why I wouldn't drink alcohol around a recovering alcoholic. Not because there's anything wrong with alcohol, but I should be mindful of the struggles of those around me.

That's milk and meat.

-CryptoLutheran

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Then explain this scripture from Paul to the Hebrews.
Hebrews 5:11-13 King James Version (KJV)
11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.
12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

1) Paul says the Hebrews are dull of hearing.
2) their teachers should again teach them the "first principles" of the oracles of God
3) they need the 'milk' again, because they obviously did not understand the "first principles" or they were not abiding by the "first principles".
4) they were obviously not ready for 'strong meat'. (like the Corinthians, was this churchwide?)
5) teachers that useth 'milk' are unskillful in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. Were their teachers not using 'strong meat', apparently not.
Hebrews 5:11-13 King James Version (KJV)
11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.
12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

Looks like the Hebrews were similar to the Corinthians. Is this problem church wide? I think so.

Peter1000 said:

Then explain this scripture from Paul to the Hebrews.
Hebrews 5:11-13 King James Version (KJV)
11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.
12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

1) Paul says the Hebrews are dull of hearing.
2) their teachers should again teach them the "first principles" of the oracles of God
3) they need the 'milk' again, because they obviously did not understand the "first principles" or they were not abiding by the "first principles".
4) they were obviously not ready for 'strong meat'. (like the Corinthians, was this churchwide?)
5) teachers that useth 'milk' are unskillful in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. Were their teachers not using 'strong meat', apparently not.
Hebrews 5:11-13 King James Version (KJV)
11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.
12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

Looks like the Hebrews were similar to the Corinthians. Is this problem church wide? I think so.

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The author of the Epistle to the Hebrews (the authorship is unknown, as the author doesn't name themselves) is addressing a different set of circumstances. Specifically, he is writing to Jewish Christians who are experiencing pressure to turn away from Christianity and return to Judaism. As such the author's intent is to explain to this Jewish Christian community matters of depth, of how the things of old have their fullness now in Christ.

This is the context of their becoming them needing to have the basics taught to them yet again, even though they have become dull of hearing. These things, namely, what the author has thus far spoken to them--of the preeminence of Christ--are such basics.

Note that the author immediately turns toward saying this:

"Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, and of instruction about washings, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment." (Hebrews 6:1-2)

This the author wants to do "if God permits", because first he wants to explain to them the warning that if they reject Christ, returning back to their former ways, they have abandoned everything they have received; nevertheless the author speaks of hope, not judgment:

"we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to hold fast to the hope set before us. We have this as a sure and steadfast anchor of the soul, a hope that enters into the inner place behind the curtain, where Jesus has gone as a forerunner on our behalf"

Our hope, our steadfast anchor, is in Christ. And we have therefore entered, as it were, into the inner sanctuary where Jesus is our Great High Priest.

Continuing, the author of the Epistle explains how Christ is greater than the Levites. Though Christ has no priestly heritage (not being a Levite of the line of Aaron) and thus no hereditary claim to being Kohen Gadol; but He is instead rather like ancient Melchizedek, the king of Salem, who was a priest of God entirely apart from the Aaronic priesthood established by God through the Torah. Thus Christ is a priest like Melchizedek, without Aaronic/Levitical credentials, but nevertheless a high priest, and a king. And so, again, the author speaks of Christ's preeminence.

And still the author continues, of Christ's preeminence still in continuing chapters. The meat which the author of Hebrews wants to instill upon these Jewish Christians is the depth of Christ, and the fulfillment of the old things in Christ. This is the meat: Christ is the fullness of all God's purposes, and it is in Christ that the believer has their stronghold, their anchor, their refuge, their assurance and security. It is in Christ that we have hope. For Christ is the Mediator of a far better covenant. Christ is High Priest, far greater than all the sons of Aaron. Christ is our Sabbath rest. Christ is the Author and Finisher of our faith, and we are not alone, we have the "great cloud of witnesses", all the holy and blessed saints who came before, cheering us on, their example is ours to follow.

This is the meat. This is the solid food that grips and takes hold of us. It is these deep things--not secret things, for these are not a secret, but rather the bold and public teaching of Christ's Holy Church as proclaimed by the holy apostles--which we delight in. For here is the bold truth: Christ our High Priest makes intercession for us, for having offered the only sacrifice that ever mattered--that of Himself--He has brought us into the place of intimacy and covenant with God.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis said:

Yep, though neither Jacob nor Esau existed yet, yet God in His wisdom predestined that Jacob would be the child of promise, not Esau; and that the blessings of Abraham would go through Jacob and his offspring--to Israel. This was in accordance with God's glorious predestined purpose and plan. God did not choose Jacob over Esau because of anything either did, because God had already ordained that the blessing would be through Jacob before either had been born. It wasn't by the merit of work of Jacob or Esau, but by God's glorious purpose. Which is why God says ,"I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion." For it was not Jacob's merit, nor Esau's folly; but by the predestined election of God of Jacob, that through Jacob the promise and the blessing be given.

For it would be through Jacob, and Jacob's son Judah which would come Jesse, the father of David, and to David the promise of the Messiah, Jesus. And thus would be fulfilled the promise of God to Abraham, that all nations would be blessed, and that Abraham would be the father of many nations. For this would come by the Seed of Abraham, who is Jesus Christ, the Son of David, the Lion of the Tribe of Judah.

-CryptoLutheran

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They had not been born, but they did exist as spirit children of God. However neither of them had done good or evil as they had not been born yet.

Peter1000 said:

OK, leaving aside all of that, which is obviously true to you, what exact writing did you read that was so awful that you knew it was not from God. Give me an example of that writing?

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It has been such a long time ago, I would have to go back and read the thing, which I have no desire to do. And I do get them mixed up, which of the writings come from which book and which quotes are from the D&C and which are not. The only believable parts of those taken from the KJV, which amazingly enough, contain all the mistakes that go with the KJV, that in itself is another reason to know that JS is not of God. Had he been, he would have corrected those mistakes which he says he does and his version is the most accurate, but he leaves the real mistakes of the KJV and inserts his own lies. I know that the whole Nephite narrative was totally bogus. And I certainly see no reason to "leaving all that aside!" I most certainly will not. These are core believes that are highly offensive to Christianity and show the evil of what you believe. I don't care who said it or which book it is in---that the Father was once human and died and was resurrected is totally false, it is a lie of Satan and you have all bought into it.

He is the way said:

They had not been born, but they did exist as spirit children of God. However neither of them had done good or evil as they had not been born yet.

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You offered a prooftext, but the text says nothing remotely what you claimed it did. As such, you are merely falling back upon assertion.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis said:

You offered a prooftext, but the text says nothing remotely what you claimed it did. As such, you are merely falling back upon assertion.

-CryptoLutheran

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There are other scriptures about the pre-existence:

(Old Testament | Job 38:4 - 7)

4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

(Old Testament | Ecclesiastes 12:7)

7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

(Old Testament | Jeremiah 1:5)

5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

(New Testament | Ephesians 1:4)

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

(New Testament | Jude 1:6)

6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

(New Testament | 2 Timothy 1:9)

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

He is the way said:

There are other scriptures about the pre-existence:

(Old Testament | Job 38:4 - 7)

4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

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That's about the angels.

(Old Testament | Ecclesiastes 12:7)

7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

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Yes, it is God who created us in the womb, including our spirit.

(Old Testament | Jeremiah 1:5)

5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

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God is all-knowing, and has predestined and ordained certain things.

(New Testament | Ephesians 1:4)

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

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Yes, we call that Election.

(New Testament | Jude 1:6)

6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

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Key word: angels.

(New Testament | 2 Timothy 1:9)

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

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Again, Election.

Okay, so with that easily sorted. Did you want to provide some Scripture that speaks about pre-existence?

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis said:

That's about the angels.

Key word: angels.


Okay, so with that easily sorted. Did you want to provide some Scripture that speaks about pre-existence?

-CryptoLutheran

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Angels are spirits and God is the Father of spirits. When we die our spirit will return to God because we were with God before we were born:

(New Testament | Hebrews 1:13 - 14)

13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

(New Testament | Hebrews 12:9)

9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

(Old Testament | Ecclesiastes 12:6 - 7)

6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.
7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

(New Testament | 2 Corinthians 5:6 - 9)

6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

We are the sons of God.