Would astronomers be comfortable without ever confirming dark matter/energy in the lab?

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sjastro

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I "cherry picked" the parts that were worth responding to, specifically your bait and switch routine. Doppler shift is *not* caused by "space expansion", and they are not equivalent.



The irony is that as a result of "space expansion" (and dark energy), energy isn't being conserved in *either* frame of reference! :)



The only part of this conversation that's unprofessional, besides your constant string of personal attacks, is the dishonest equivocation fallacy, and your blatant bait (Doppler shift) and switch (space expansion) routine. Doppler shift has *nothing* to do with space expansion, and they aren't equivalent.
And this post confirms yet again your dishonesty and being out of your depth.
You either point out where I implied cosmological redshift and Doppler shift are equivalent or you do the right thing retract the statement and apologize.

While cosmological and Doppler shift are not equivalent there are many similarities.

(1) They both measure the wavelength which is inversely proportional to energy in a rest frame (λₙ)
(2) They both measure the wavelength in an observer’s frame (λ₀)
(3) For low z the formula for both are the same z = (λ₀ - λₙ)/λₙ
(4) The energy difference between the observer’s and rest frame cannot be explained as an interaction with the dynamical system.
(5) Conservation laws do not exist between frames of references and applies to both cosmological and Doppler redshift.

The point I was making that went right over your head if you want to argue that cosmological redshift violates the conservation of energy because no such law exists then it applies to Doppler shift as well.

Instead in keeping with the trend of making up nonsense to cover up your lack of comprehension, you concoct this outrageous lie I am suggesting cosmological and Doppler shift are one in the same thing.
As I stated you should do the right thing…………..
 
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Michael

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And this post confirms yet again your dishonesty and being out of your depth.

The only one being dishonest is you, starting with your personal attack extravaganza. Every post is pure personal attack now, with absolutely *nothing* of substance.

You either point out where I implied cosmological redshift and Doppler shift are equivalent or you do the right thing retract the statement and apologize.

What?!?!? You're the one that needs to apologize for even bringing Doppler shift into this conversation in the first place! Doppler shift is *not* the same as "space expansion" and it's specifically "space expansion" that violates the conservation of energy laws, not Doppler shift.

I have listed this specific reference and this specific quote several times now during our conversations at CF:

Energy Is Not Conserved

When the space through which particles move is changing, the total energy of those particles is not conserved.

It's not the movement of *objects* that results in the violation of energy conservation and you know it! I have *never* suggested that either.

While cosmological and Doppler shift are not equivalent there are many similarities.

Nope. Doppler shift is related to moving objects, it's a demonstrated cause of redshift, and in no way does it violate conservation of energy laws. "Space expansion" is pure metaphysical dogma on a stick, and it *does* result in a *gross* violation of the conservation of energy laws, just like "dark energy".

The point I was making that went right over your head if you want to argue that cosmological redshift violates the conservation of energy because no such law exists then it applies to Doppler shift as well.

That's all absolutely false. You keep trying to equate Doppler shift with space expansion, and they simply are *not* the same. In the latter case, energy isn't conserved in *any* frame of reference! They are completely different claims, and completely different issues! You keep ignoring that they are not the same process, nor do they have the same net result with respect to energy conservation, or lack thereof in the case of 'space expansion'.

Instead in keeping with the trend of making up nonsense to cover up your lack of comprehension, you concoct this outrageous lie I am suggesting cosmological and Doppler shift are one in the same thing.
As I stated you should do the right thing…………..

You should do the right thing and A) stop the incessant and ridiculous personal attacks and B) stop trying to falsely equate Doppler shift with space expansion with respect to energy conservation. They are completely *different* issues and different animals. Doppler shift in no way violates any conservation of energy laws. Period. The change in frames of references is utterly irrelevant. In instances of Doppler shift, energy is conserved with respect to both frames of references when the relative motion of the objects is taken into account. In fact we can use the laws of conservation of energy to calculate the relative speed differences between the source and the observer.

In the case of "space expansion" on the other hand, energy isn't conserved in *either* frame of reference, not even the source! They are completely different topics and completely different in terms of energy conservation. Stop erroneously trying to equate them!
 
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sjastro

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The only one being dishonest is you, starting with your personal attack extravaganza. Every post is pure personal attack now, with absolutely *nothing* of substance.



What?!?!? You're the one that needs to apologize for even bringing Doppler shift into this conversation in the first place! Doppler shift is *not* the same as "space expansion" and it's specifically "space expansion" that violates the conservation of energy laws, not Doppler shift.

I have listed this specific reference and this specific quote several times now during our conversations at CF:

Energy Is Not Conserved



It's not the movement of *objects* that results in the violation of energy conservation and you know it! I have *never* suggested that either.



Nope. Doppler shift is related to moving objects, it's a demonstrated cause of redshift, and in no way does it violate conservation of energy laws. "Space expansion" is pure metaphysical dogma on a stick, and it *does* result in a *gross* violation of the conservation of energy laws, just like "dark energy".



That's all absolutely false. You keep trying to equate Doppler shift with space expansion, and they simply are *not* the same. In the latter case, energy isn't conserved in *any* frame of reference! They are completely different claims, and completely different issues! You keep ignoring that they are not the same process, nor do they have the same net result with respect to energy conservation, or lack thereof in the case of 'space expansion'.



You should do the right thing and A) stop the incessant and ridiculous personal attacks and B) stop trying to falsely equate Doppler shift with space expansion with respect to energy conservation. They are completely *different* issues and different animals. Doppler shift in no way violates any conservation of energy laws. Period. The change in frames of references is utterly irrelevant. In instances of Doppler shift, energy is conserved with respect to both frames of references when the relative motion of the objects is taken into account. In fact we can use the laws of conservation of energy to calculate the relative speed differences between the source and the observer.

In the case of "space expansion" on the other hand, energy isn't conserved in *either* frame of reference, not even the source! They are completely different topics and completely different in terms of energy conservation. Stop erroneously trying to equate them!
You were asked to show where I made the claim that cosmological redshift and Doppler shift where the same or retract this statement and apologize.
Not only did you fail to address this issue but are continuing to perpetrate this lie.
The rest of your post is a complete fabrication and bears absolutely no relevance to anything I stated.

Since you have made your intentions perfectly clear to continue to be dishonest and to carry on with the ad hom attacks we will let the powers to be to decide what happens next.
 
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SelfSim

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Michael said:
No, that discussion took place on *this* forum, and ben was not involved.
Sorry for the confusion. I did not mean that it took place on another forum, nor that ben was involved in the discussion on this board.

What I was asking is if the discussion to which you were referring was the recent conversation that referenced that thread with ben on the other forum?
Links to the saga of Michael's famous 1=0.5 blunder commence here.
I see to this day, Michael still denies how the pure logic of basic algebra exposed his nonsensical claims.
 
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