Do you ever get tired of fat salaried pastors telling everyone else how they should 'serve' for free

Silverback

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Especially when the part-time pastor is seen coming into the office at 10 am, taking a leisurely 90 minute lunch at noon, then leaving the office at 4. And you'd never see them volunteering if they were to quit. They'd sit at home on Sunday morning updating their resumes for the next PAID ministry position which they apparently feel they are entitled to cause they went to seminary and therefore fall into another category than the layperson who has been studying their Bible their entire lives and also knows it forward and backward but perhaps aren't as 'eloquent' at putting a sermon together. Nor is the pastor's schedule booked solid with counseling sessions like some sort of high priced psychologist.

"But....but...they have families to support!"

So do the part-time volunteers. They have other jobs. A few relatively rare pastors of smaller churches may work full-time at other jobs, like school teacher, but still get paid by the church. They aren't volunteering.

Everything everyone is doing can be made to be part-time. It's called LESS THAN 40 HOURS OF WORK PER WEEK!

I cannot speak on your situation. However, Pastors do things outside the church building, often they are visiting other members who are sick, or, in the hospital, they have grave site services to conduct, they attend meetings of local congregations who participated in ecumenical activities, among other responsibilities. these activities can mean a lot of travel time stuck in traffic, or, long distances to travel.

Pastors should be paid at levels appropriate to their education, and experience, they should not live in an unsafe, and dilapidated church parsonage, and drive a rusted unreliable vehicle.

Additionally, many do have families to care for. Those in full-time ministry should get there salary from the source of that ministry, be that a church, mission board, or, chaplaincy.

Very good pastors have left the ministry because they have never received a pay increase, and can't make it any longer, or, the elders will not replace the leaking roof in the parsonage, or, get the mold removed that's affecting there children's health.

I will agree there are limits, but, most Pastors are not getting rich in the ministry.

A seminary education at an ATS accredited Seminary is as expensive as medical, or law school, and many pastors have significant education debt, which further reduced there available income.

Pastors also have to deal with church members driving by there homes at all hours of the night looking to see if their lights are on, or their virgins drawn, or any other myriad of insults, they are followed by members, members sit outside their homes and take pictures...you name it.

Pastors put up with more bologna than most, I couldn't do it.

If you are unhappy with what your pastor does, is not doing, or, his compensation package, then I suggest you bring it to the elders, or, confront the pastor directly.

You could also find another church., But spying on anyone is very immature.
 
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Dave-W

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Especially when the part-time pastor is seen coming into the office at 10 am, taking a leisurely 90 minute lunch at noon, then leaving the office at 4. And you'd never see them volunteering if they were to quit. They'd sit at home on Sunday morning updating their resumes for the next PAID ministry position which they apparently feel they are entitled to cause they went to seminary
This sounds EXTREMELY bitter to my ears. Be careful of that kind of judgement.
 
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Dave-W

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Pastors also have to deal with church members driving by there homes at all hours of the night looking to see if their lights are on, or their virgins drawn, or any other myriad of insults, they are followed by members, members sit outside their homes and take pictures...you name it.
I have known congregants where the pastor's family live in a parsonage next door to the church building coming into the house at all hours of the night because "they own the house." They even walk into bedrooms while they are sleeping. (or doing other things)
 
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bèlla

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Greetings,

In my experience, pastors are overworked and most congregants are not involved. This requires the church to hire extra staff to complete the tasks we could.

On average, the people who volunteer are the same ones who pitch in for everything. They are overtaxed much like the pastor.

In most cases, he isn’t the problem. Its the people seated who neglect their duty to the Body. They’re consumers not servants.

~Bella
 
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devin553344

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Agreed. So far I've chosen the latter. The purpose of the post is to question see if there is anyone else out there who feels the same way. And so far, no.

In all seriousness, I was LDS for quite a while and I was asked to teach and be a boy scout leader, give scripture sermons during service, etc, I wasn't paid at all, and I put in 10% tithe while doing it. I later realized how different LDS charity is different from other churches. I then got upset. Last I checked I think the leaders get a paid salary. But the pastors do not. So it actually gets worse I think.
 
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justme6272

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If the average sermon is 35 minutes, you have to multiply that by 3 or 4. Most evangelical congregations have a Sunday morning, Sunday evening, Midweek service (or 2 midweek services).
No, I'm only going to multiply it by 2 at most. I live in a large metro area and protestant churches stopped meeting Sunday nights decades ago, with maybe one service mid-week, so that's two total.
Plus the pastor has to visit personally and get to know EVERY congregant.
You're joking, right? That doesn't even happen in small churches, much less the ones you describe that are so big they supposedly meet 4 times per week.
He has to oversee all the volunteers doing all of the other things going on at the same time.
No, that's what all the assistant pastors do, with each assistant getting their own secretary.
I am not sure if it is still in print. But it will tell you how much a pastor actually does.
I'll pass on the book since I'm sure he doesn't explain how he can show up to 'work' at 10 am, take a 90 minute lunch, and leave at 4 pm while having such a heavy burden of so much responsibility on his shoulders.

If pastors ever form a union, you might be qualified as their bargaining representative. Did you ever belong to a union?

Even if all the things you describe were true and legitimate full-time job functions, the pastor is still going to complain about not enough volunteer service from others while he gets paid for everything he does. Maybe we should divide the pastor's salary by each hour he puts in, then pay the volunteers that much per hour.

Then he'll get up and complain about the complainers, which means he's no better than they are cause he's complaining. But that's another topic. It all falls under the heading of 'what's good enough for you isn't good enough for me' hypocrisy.

I'll take it that your answer to my original post is a resounding NO, even though you never actually answer the question, it's pretty obvious. Are you a pastor? Is there one in your family? Why the bias? Why the support of hypocrisy?
 
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Silverback

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I have known congregants where the pastor's family live in a parsonage next door to the church building coming into the house at all hours of the night because "they own the house." They even walk into bedrooms while they are sleeping. (or doing other things)

Yep, I have heard that as well, very sad.
 
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Silverback

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No, I'm only going to multiply it by 2 at most. I live in a large metro area and protestant churches stopped meeting Sunday nights decades ago, with maybe one service mid-week, so that's two total.
You're joking, right? That doesn't even happen in small churches, much less the ones you describe that are so big they supposedly meet 4 times per week. No, that's what all the assistant pastors do, with each assistant getting their own secretary.
I'll pass on the book since I'm sure he doesn't explain how he can show up to 'work' at 10 am, take a 90 minute lunch, and leave at 4 pm while assuming the burden of so much responsibility on his shoulders.

Then you should bring it to the attention of the elders, or, confront the Pastor, or, find another church.
 
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spiritualchristian7

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Agreed. So far I've chosen the latter. The purpose of the post is to question see if there is anyone else out there who feels the same way. And so far, no.
I hope don't feel disheartened or offended from all the rebukes you're getting. Rather, cheer up & take this chance to self-reflect! :) a change of mind is always a need for growth. ;)
 
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paul1149

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Agreed. So far I've chosen the latter. The purpose of the post is to question see if there is anyone else out there who feels the same way. And so far, no.
There may be more discontent out there than you think, but I don't know that soft hours is one of the biggest complaints. Back when my first church imploded, with the elders turning on the sheep, I identified the problem as "careers in Christ". They had said they would lay down their lives for us, but when circumstances arose that threatened their positions, they quickly threw us under the bus.

But even with all that - and I'm skipping the sordid details - I never had a problem with thinking they had an easy job. That made it easier for me to let go of the bitterness; I saw this as a weakness that led them to sin grievously, but not something as venial as soft work hours.
 
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tall73

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Especially when the part-time pastor is seen coming into the office at 10 am, taking a leisurely 90 minute lunch at noon, then leaving the office at 4. And you'd never see them volunteering if they were to quit. They'd sit at home on Sunday morning updating their resumes for the next PAID ministry position which they apparently feel they are entitled to cause they went to seminary and therefore fall into another category than the layperson who has been studying their Bible their entire lives and also knows it forward and backward but perhaps aren't as 'eloquent' at putting a sermon together. Nor is the pastor's schedule booked solid with counseling sessions like some sort of high priced psychologist.

"But....but...they have families to support!"

So do the part-time volunteers. They have other jobs. A few relatively rare pastors of smaller churches may work full-time at other jobs, like school teacher, but still get paid by the church. They aren't volunteering.

Everything everyone is doing can be made to be part-time. It's called LESS THAN 40 HOURS OF WORK PER WEEK!

Silverback already mentioned this course of action. But it needs repeating. Have you talked to the pastor in question about your concerns?

If not then there is little that we here can do. There are pastors who do not carry out the duty they should. There are pastors who do, and you may not know all they do. If you have a concern, go to that person.
 
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Hammster

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More and more those pastors are bellyaching about how not enough people are 'serving' for free
Where are you getting all of this data from?
 
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Dave-W

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I'll pass on the book since I'm sure he doesn't explain how he can show up to 'work' at 10 am, take a 90 minute lunch, and leave at 4 pm while having such a heavy burden of so much responsibility on his shoulders.
That person you describe should NOT be a pastor. I am not sure such a person exists. At least not in my circles.

Try getting up at 5 am and driving to the hospital to see people there. Then have an 8 am staff meeting. Then you get a call that a couple is screaming and yelling at each other and you have to go defuse the situation. At 2 pm you have a counseling session scheduled with another at 3 and yet another at 4. At 6 you need to meet with the board to settle out a few monetary items. Supplies for the sunday school program and a couple of different outreach programs. You get home at 9 pm and your kids are already in bed. You eat a bit and are too tired to even talk to your wife. Go to bed. Get up tomorrow and do it all over again. Assuming there was not a 2 am car crash on the Interstate that involved some of your congregants.

Those are the pastors in my world. Would you REALLY begrudge such a person a decent living wage?
 
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Dave-W

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You're joking, right? That doesn't even happen in small churches, much less the ones you describe that are so big they supposedly meet 4 times per week.
No joke. That IS in that book. The importance of knowing where everyone is at is vital to the job.

And it is probably the smaller congregations (< 100) that meet 3-4 times a week.
 
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Dave-W

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If pastors ever form a union, you might be qualified as their bargaining representative. Did you ever belong to a union?
Yes - the UAW and the AIW. I had problems with both. They kept telling me things I COULD NOT do (according to their rules) but I did anyway. I almost got worked over by a couple of guys with 2x4s at my first UAW position.
 
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Dave-W

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Are you a pastor? Is there one in your family? Why the bias? Why the support of hypocrisy?
No I am not a pastor
My dad was one but left the pastorate before I was born.
I am neither biased nor supporting hypocrisy.

But I have seen the job from the inside. I (as an elder board member) had to fill in for a pastor when he got very sick for several months. So I have seen it a bit.

My normal function there was worship leader and adult education. That usually took 25 hours per week. So I had a lot of his other functions in addition to my normal stuff.
 
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topher694

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Especially when the part-time pastor is seen coming into the office at 10 am, taking a leisurely 90 minute lunch at noon, then leaving the office at 4. And you'd never see them volunteering if they were to quit. They'd sit at home on Sunday morning updating their resumes for the next PAID ministry position which they apparently feel they are entitled to cause they went to seminary and therefore fall into another category than the layperson who has been studying their Bible their entire lives and also knows it forward and backward but perhaps aren't as 'eloquent' at putting a sermon together. Nor is the pastor's schedule booked solid with counseling sessions like some sort of high priced psychologist.

"But....but...they have families to support!"

So do the part-time volunteers. They have other jobs. A few relatively rare pastors of smaller churches may work full-time at other jobs, like school teacher, but still get paid by the church. They aren't volunteering.

Everything everyone is doing can be made to be part-time. It's called LESS THAN 40 HOURS OF WORK PER WEEK!
The level of judgment and ignorance here is staggering.

You seem to be reducing the work of a pastor down to preparing and preaching a sermon? Dave suggested that is 10%. As a senior pastor myself I'd say it is closer to 5%. And pastoring is easily 40+ hours of work. It just may not be 40+ hours of office time. In fact probably 50% of a pastor's job involves things that they don't tell you about (and shouldn't) for privacy reasons.

There is so, so, so much more to it. For the pastors I know it you rarely get a true day off. Its seems everyone else's emergencies always line up with your family time, and you are there for them because that is what you do. Being a pastor is not a job, it is a calling that goes far beyond a job.
 
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grasping the after wind

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I cannot speak on your situation. However, Pastors do things outside the church building, often they are visiting other members who are sick, or, in the hospital, they have grave site services to conduct, they attend meetings of local congregations who participated in ecumenical activities, among other responsibilities. these activities can mean a lot of travel time stuck in traffic, or, long distances to travel.

Pastors should be paid at levels appropriate to their education, and experience, they should not live in an unsafe, and dilapidated church parsonage, and drive a rusted unreliable vehicle.

Additionally, many do have families to care for. Those in full-time ministry should get there salary from the source of that ministry, be that a church, mission board, or, chaplaincy.

Very good pastors have left the ministry because they have never received a pay increase, and can't make it any longer, or, the elders will not replace the leaking roof in the parsonage, or, get the mold removed that's affecting there children's health.

I will agree there are limits, but, most Pastors are not getting rich in the ministry.

A seminary education at an ATS accredited Seminary is as expensive as medical, or law school, and many pastors have significant education debt, which further reduced there available income.

Pastors also have to deal with church members driving by there homes at all hours of the night looking to see if their lights are on, or their virgins drawn, or any other myriad of insults, they are followed by members, members sit outside their homes and take pictures...you name it.

Pastors put up with more bologna than most, I couldn't do it.

If you are unhappy with what your pastor does, is not doing, or, his compensation package, then I suggest you bring it to the elders, or, confront the pastor directly.

You could also find another church., But spying on anyone is very immature.

I agree and disagree. First, Pastors have a demanding vocation which , if taken seriously and pursued fully, dominates their life beyond anything a 40 hour a week job would. It is after all a vocation , supposedly placed upon them by God , not a career or job they freely chose for financial gain or status. Second, being envious of that most likely comes from not understanding what the vocation actually entails. However, there are in my experience among the clergy those that seem to me to not have a sense of vocation but have instead a sense of being employed and have embarked upon a career choice and who, because of that, seem to resent the dominance of the vocation on their lives and perhaps strive to change the nature of that vocation into something more suitable called a job or career. Those that would follow that path do not IMO look to God to define their vocation for them nor do they accept whatever stipends they are offered but instead wish to define for themselves those duties and look to be compensated financially for carrying those duties out in the same way an a employee is compensated for their labor in the capitalist system.
 
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bekkilyn

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If you are expecting your part-time pastor to be working full time hours, then you are being unrealistic. A part-time pastor is usually required to work from 20-25 hours per week (at half time) and so coming in at 10am and leaving at 4pm minus a 90 minute lunch would be 4.5 hours of office hours per DAY, which adds up to 22.5 hours per week of just sitting in the pastor's/church office being "present" for people dropping by and wanting to talk or whatever.

Then at home, the pastor would need to put in however many hours on top of those to prepare sermons and plan order of worship, since being in a public office all day being constantly interrupted isn't exactly the best situation for prayer, study, and mental focus.

Then if someone is in the hospital or requests a home visit, that's yet more hours, and we haven't even gotten to mid-week services or bible studies that may be required, preparing children's messages, confirmation classes, baptisms, weddings, funerals, etc.

And now your part-time pastor is probably putting in so many hours over the 20 to 25 and making less than a minimum wage job where no work ever needs to be taken home, interrupted, or infringe on family time.

But if you hate having a pastor so much, why not find a church that doesn't have a pastor at all and is completely run by lay volunteers who do everything for free?

Why not set the example and refuse to be paid at whatever work you are doing?
 
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eleos1954

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Especially when the part-time pastor is seen coming into the office at 10 am, taking a leisurely 90 minute lunch at noon, then leaving the office at 4. And you'd never see them volunteering if they were to quit. They'd sit at home on Sunday morning updating their resumes for the next PAID ministry position which they apparently feel they are entitled to cause they went to seminary and therefore fall into another category than the layperson who has been studying their Bible their entire lives and also knows it forward and backward but perhaps aren't as 'eloquent' at putting a sermon together. Nor is the pastor's schedule booked solid with counseling sessions like some sort of high priced psychologist.

"But....but...they have families to support!"

So do the part-time volunteers. They have other jobs. A few relatively rare pastors of smaller churches may work full-time at other jobs, like school teacher, but still get paid by the church. They aren't volunteering.

Everything everyone is doing can be made to be part-time. It's called LESS THAN 40 HOURS OF WORK PER WEEK!

If one can not serve (give) with a happy heart then they should not serve.

2 Corinthians 9:7
English Standard Version
Each one must give as he has decided in his heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

Includes the giving (volunteering) of one's time.

Either it's volunteering ... or a paid job ... and is accepted as such.

If the congregation has issues with the pastor ... then members of the congregation should go and talk to him about it.

Galatians 6

1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
 
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