Col 2 regarding - "commandments of men" and "traditions of men"

Bob S

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Sorry, but I’m not SDA.
Did I indicate that you are? You do side with each other. Why is it you don't debate your beliefs with them? I presume that you are Messianic and keep the feasts of the old covenant laws. And how about the new moon celebrations? Do you observe the kosher food laws? When I was a SDA those rituals would run through my mind because we were taught to keep the ritual Sabbath Holy, but ignored all the other ritual commands. It would be interesting if you really would debate issues with SDAs instead of ignoring your differences. I am here defending new covenant Christianity, and how it relates to the Sinai covenant, with both groups.

Have a great day.
 
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BobRyan

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Did I indicate that you are? You do side with each other.

And Baptist Confession of Faith sectn 19 also affirms all TEN of the Ten Commandments included in the moral law of God written on the heart under the New Covenant of Jeremiah 31:31-34

As does the Westminster Confession of Faith - sectn 19.

As does D.L. Moody in his sermon on the TEN Commandments

Even the Catholic Catechism on the Ten Commandments - affirms that TEN are included in the moral law of God written on the heart

The very points where you had wished to "single out SDAs"
 
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BobRyan

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Did I indicate that you are? You do side with each other. .

I am glad these Sunday sources all affirm the Ten Commandments for Christians.

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism
The Catholic Catechism. :groupray:

And of course 7th day groups

Seventh-day Baptists
Seventh-day Adventists
(and 100's of others)
 
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Bro. Dave Gardner

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Did I indicate that you are? You do side with each other. Why is it you don't debate your beliefs with them? I presume that you are Messianic and keep the feasts of the old covenant laws. And how about the new moon celebrations? Do you observe the kosher food laws?
Divide and Conquer. Nice. It must be a miserable, unhappy thing to be so bent on the decimation of other Christians. Or is that part of the John, Ch. 15 model of self-sacrificing love about which we hear so much?
 
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Crosstian

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Well, I can think of three man-made doctrines that come from the church you espouse.
One is the investigative judgment. ...
The saints do not get to escape judgment, though they have an Advocate, Jesus Christ the Righteous:

Psalms 7:11 KJB - God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry [with the wicked] every day.

Psalms 37:33 KJB - The LORD will not leave him in his hand, nor condemn him when he is judged.

Ecclesiastes 3:17 KJB - I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work.

Ecclesiastes 12:14 KJB - For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether [it be] good, or whether [it be] evil.

The investigative judgment is found in type and in prophecy throughout the whole of scripture [KJB]:

In Genesis 2 & 3, we see Eve being deceived into sin, though Adam was warned, and He having warned her, and Adam following in sin, and then "they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day", and God ['Jesus'] investigates, inquiring and asking questions [Genesis 3:9-19; not that God doesn't know, but it is for the benefit of the angels and Adam/Eve and us], having already warned man of the sentence for sin [Genesis 2:17], and then God carries out sentence, but also gives hope [Genesis 3:15].

In Genesis 4, we see Cain and Abel, which both claimed to worship God, yet one was a son of that wicked one, satan. When Abel was killed by Cain, God came down and asked/inquired/investigated of Cain, before sentence was carried out.

In Genesis 6-9, we see that the world was becoming wicked, and while many claimed to follow God, they were already inter-marrying with the children of Cain. God looks upon the world in investigation, before execution of Judgment by the Flood.

In Genesis 10-11, we see that the people again rebelled, and God came down to see and look and investigate, before the execution of Judgment in the separation of the languages.

In Genesis 17-19, we see that God had delivered the people of Lot and Sodom, and yet Sodom did not truly repent, and went further in rebellion, and God came down to see/investigate/judge before execution of Judgment. ...etc...

In Leviticus 16 & 23, we see that Israel, and all that claimed to follow God, was to enter into the time of the typical Day of Atonement, wherein the Priest bore into the Sanctuary, upon the Breast plate of Judgment the people, represented by the stones. Anyone found not to be in harmony with God, in true repentance, was to be cut off at the end of it.

In 1 Kings 3, we see Solomon [type of Christ] having an investigation between two persons [women] over a dead Child [Christ], and a living Child [Christ] to see who really loved the Child. Solomon investigates in a judgment setting upon His throne, and gives a test, and a sentence testing the loyalty of the True mother [true Church, worshippers] and the corruption of heart of the false mother [false church, worshippers].

In Ezra 2, we see an investigative judgment in type:

Ezra 2:61 KJB - And of the children of the priests: the children of Habaiah, the children of Koz, the children of Barzillai; which took a wife of the daughters of Barzillai the Gileadite, and was called after their name:

Ezra 2:62 KJB - These sought their register among those that were reckoned by genealogy, but they were not found: therefore were they, as polluted, put from the priesthood.

Ezra 2:63 KJB - And the Tirshatha said unto them, that they should not eat of the most holy things, till there stood up a priest with Urim and with Thummim.

All of those priests coming back from the captivity of Babylon, had to be able to shew themselves by lineage, and had to pass through an investigation, to continue in their role as priests of God. Christians are kings and priests, a royal priesthood, and we have come out of the captivity. This is seen throughout the whole of scripture [KJB]:

The Scriptures from Genesis to Revelation reveal in type and in Prophecy this great end-time Investigative Judgment, and in Exodus 28:15,29,30 KJB we see the breastplate upon the Highpriest, is called “the breastplate of judgment”.

In Daniel 7, we see God the Father sitting in judgment, with the books of records being opened, and the angels ministering and searching the records, with Jesus present.

In Daniel 12, we see Michael/Jesus standing up, after the searching of the record books of Heaven, and the book of Lifeof the Lamb have been searched and read

In Zechariah 3, we see an investigative judgment, taking place in the Most Holy Place on the day of atonement, with Joshua the High priest.

In Malachi 3, we see God sitting as a refiner, in judgment over his children.

In the Gospels, Jesus himself came to see/investigate/judge Israel, before the execution of Judgment.

In the Gospels, the disciples themselves were sifted, and we can even see this futher with Peter in the courtyard of the Highpriest, with Jesus in the upper room, and so on.

In Matthew 18, we see God taking account of his servants, who had at one point received forgiveness, but later had it revoked.

In Matthew 22, we see God looking to see who is wearing the wedding garment, and passing judgment on the one who didn't.

In Mark 11, we see Jesus coming to the Tree in "search" of fruit, and finding none, and judgment is passed upon it.

In Romans 2:13-16, we read of the future judgment of all men, including their secrets by Jesus

In 2 Corinthians 5:10, we read of all having to appear before the judgment seat of Christ

In Hebrews 9, we see this judgment was to begin with the dead, in the time of judgment.

In 1 Peter 4, we see that God, at the time of Peter, was “ready” to judge, and would begin at the time specified in Daniel and in Leviticus 16 & 23.

In Jude 1:15, we read of Jesus second advent to render and to “execute judgment” that was determined beforehand in the investigation.

In Revelation 3:10, 17:12, we see a specific testing of the living professing, that comes after the dead professed [Hebrews 9:27]

In Revelation 3, the 7th church is called Laodicea, meaning a judging of the people, who are searched by God.

In Revelation 11, we see that the very Church, the Temple of God, was to be measured, sometime after the 1,260 years of Daniel.

In Revelation 14, we see the very first Angel's message declare that the time of judgment had begun, and was going forward while the Everlasting Gospel was still being preached.

… and so on.

Notice, that when the Ancient of Days [the person of the Father] sat, multiple thrones were also placed, wherein the angels [which 10,000 etc surrounded Him] also sat, and books were opened. This judgment is for the angels to look into, because they cannot read the human heart as God can, and thus they need to see for themselves that God's judgments were right on who is to be let into a place without sin [Heaven]. The timing of the sequence in Daniel 7 [as shown in context and in chiastic structure, etc] reveals that this phase of judgment takes place after the rise of Rome and its divisions, and before the second advent, and the kingdom come. It is unbreakable in its order. The judgment therein is even taking place while the little horn is still blaspheming on earth, before it is destroyed, before the number of the kingdom of Heaven is made up.

In Daniel 7 is in 4 main parts.

Daniel 7:1-14 KJB the vision of Daniel
Daniel 7:15-18 KJB the super summary of the whole vision by Gabriel [even vss 17,18]
Daniel 7:19-22 KJB Daniel asking about it again, and a specific
Daniel 7:23-28 KJB Gabriel, once more going over the whole in more detail

Thus Daniel, Gabriel, Daniel, Gabriel. Each portion intimately tied to the other, so that the timing thereof cannot be broken between each section.

Daniel 7:22 KJB - Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Until [refers to the previous time portion in earlier verse, the leading up to 1844, thus the 1,260 years, 538-1798]

Ancient of Days came, and did sit [refers to 1844 until the close of probation]

judgment was given to the saints of the most High [refers to 1,000 years, see Rev 20:4, "given unto", see also Paul, know ye not that the saints will judge angels [fallen], the world [lost].]

and the time came [end of the 1,000 years, see Rev. 20, Isaiah 24, etc] that the saints posesses the kingdom [being New Heaven and New Earth]

In Ezekiel 1-9, shows the same, wherein a investigative judgment goes forward, and then execution of that judgment takes place after, beginning with the elders of the temple/sanctuary on down to the least.

A very important text to consider:

Proverbs 28:5 KJB - Evil men understand not judgment: but they that seek the LORD understand all things.


We pray all of our prayers may be, in the time of our judgment by God, that He may keep out names upon His lips, and not spew us out.

Let out prayer to be, beginning to day, 'investigate me, O God, according to thy mercy and righteousness':

Psalms 139:23 Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts:
Psalms 139:24 And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.

As it is written:

Psalms 44:20 If we have forgotten the name of our God, or stretched out our hands to a strange god;
Psalms 44:21 Shall not God search this out? for he knoweth the secrets of the heart.

Jeremiah 17:10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

Zephaniah 1:12 And it shall come to pass at that time, that I will search Jerusalem with candles, and punish the men that are settled on their lees: that say in their heart, The LORD will not do good, neither will he do evil.

Ought we not to search our own selves?

Lamentations 3:40 Let us search and try our ways, and turn again to the LORD.

Ought we not to search after Him as for hid treasure?

Jeremiah 29:13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.

The time and events approach that the "test" of all professing men living will come, for the judgment of the professed dead will be over (Hebrews 9:27; Daniel 7:9-10), and for the living the "test" will be finally and forever taken, and there will be no more time to prepare for the "test" which comes to "try" all:

Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Revelation 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

Is it not written?

Proverbs 22:3 A prudent man foreseeth the evil, and hideth himself: but the simple pass on, and are punished.

Proverbs 27:12 A prudent man foreseeth the evil, and hideth himself; but the simple pass on, and are punished.

Perhaps it is the word "Investigative" that is the issue with so many, since they cannot seem to find it in the KJB, but perhaps if they might look in the many other English translations to which they themselves trust in:

For instance, Daniel 9:10 - Daniel 7:10 - Bible Gateway -
[MSG] - “As I was watching all this, “Thrones were set in place and The Old One sat down. His robes were white as snow, his hair was white like wool. His throne was flaming with fire, its wheels blazing. A river of fire poured out of the throne. Thousands upon thousands served him, tens of thousands attended him. The courtroom was called to order, and the books were opened.

[NOG] - "A river of fire flowed. It came from him. Thousands and thousands served him. Ten thousand times ten thousand were stationed in front of him. The court convened, and the books were opened."

[ISV] - "A river of fire flowed out from before him. Thousands upon thousands were serving him, with millions upon millions waiting before him. The court sat in judgment, and record books were unsealed."

[GNT] - "and a stream of fire was pouring out from it. There were many thousands of people there to serve him, and millions of people stood before him. The court began its session, and the books were opened."

etc ...

God gave us a type of how God operates in Heaven:
Deuteronomy 13:14 KJB - Then shalt thou enquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought among you;

Deuteronomy 13:14 - Deuteronomy 13:14 - Bible Gateway
[AMP] - "then you shall investigate and search out [witnesses] and ask thorough questions. If it is true and the matter is established that this loathsome thing has been done among you,"

[CSB] - "you are to inquire, investigate, and interrogate thoroughly. If the report turns out to be true that this detestable act has been done among you,"

[HCSB] - "you are to inquire, investigate, and interrogate thoroughly. If the report turns out to be true that this detestable thing has happened among you,"

etc., etc. ...

Deuteronomy 19:18 KJB - And the judges shall make diligent inquisition: and, behold, if the witness be a false witness, and hath testified falsely against his brother;

Deuteronomy 19:18 - Deuteronomy 19:18 - Bible Gateway
[AMP] - "The judges shall investigate thoroughly, and if the witness is a false witness, and he has accused his brother falsely,"

[CSB] - "The judges are to make a careful investigation, and if the witness turns out to be a liar who has falsely accused his brother,"

[CJB] - "The judges are to investigate carefully. If they find that the witness is lying and has given false testimony against his brother,"

[HCSB] - "The judges are to make a careful investigation, and if the witness turns out to be a liar who has falsely accused his brother,"

etc, etc ...

Even, at least one, use the exact word:

[OJB] - "thought it expedient also, having done an iyun (investigative research), accurately and carefully being meayen (engaged in research) in every source and making a medakdeke (pain-stakingly thorough) investigation of every aspect from HaReshit (the Beginning), to write for you and to mesader (arrange, place in succession) an orderly account, most noble Theophilus,"

What will these people say, when God asks them why they did not believe, and why they taught contrary to His word?

Psalms 9:12 KJB - When he maketh inquisition for blood, he remembereth them: he forgetteth not the cry of the humble.

God is already making inquisition, an investigation, for blood, upon all those of the past who have professed His name, and will He find "blood" on their garments, on their hands, will He find the blood of others upon them? Soon, God will turn from those who have died in profession to those living ...
 
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Bro. Dave Gardner

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Well, I can think of three man-made doctrines that come from the church you espouse.
One is the investigative judgment. This is a purely man-made invention to save face when Jesus didn't return in 1844 as planned by Bill Miller and supported by Ellen Harmon. That is a command by the church to believe. P. S. Most Adventists today either do not understand that doctrine or sweep it under the rug, but it is there and nobody dare remove it.

Then there is the false tithing system devised by the church to fill the coffers when other plans to do it failed. As we know from the tithing system, as part of the old covenant laws, only those that raised livestock and /or crops paid the tax. The church revised that law so that everyone has to pay it or face losing their eternal inheritance. Jesus would not have been a tithe payer either. We are told to walk the walk of Jesus. Since Jesus was not a tithe payer why does the church falsely demand the flock to pay it or lose their eternal inheritance? That is a doctrine of men and Ellen White.

Of course, there is the promotion of the old covenant for Israel only Sabbath and judging others for not observing it. That is for sure a doctrine of men.

So you see Bob, the church is not lilly white, so when you point your finger at us you have some pointing back at you.
The Investigative Judgment is the only doctrine native to the Adventist church and its offshoots. Surprising that you don't recognize that being the resident expert ex-Adventist on CF.
 
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Bob S

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The IJ was/is a farce, a cover-up, for Jesus not returning in 1844 Crosstian. I admire you for going to GREAT LENGTHS to try to prove otherwise.

If we are in Christ we will not be judged as per Jn5:24 ‘Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

Claim the promise!
 
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Bro. Dave Gardner

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The IJ was/is a farce, a cover-up, for Jesus not returning in 1844 Crosstian. I admire you for going to GREAT LENGTHS to try to prove otherwise.
More dismissive, insulting condescension unbecoming a professor of Christ
If we are in Christ we will not be judged as per Jn5:24 ‘Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.
This text is mistranslated. It is even obvious within the text itself. There is no contrast between the word "judged" and the phrase "has crossed over from death to life," as suggested by the conjunction "but" as it is translated in nearly (if not entirely) all English versions of the Bible. However the word "condemn" as it is rendered in many translations does, in fact, satisfy the element of contrast. Not to mention that for every one text selected to discard the existence of judgment, there are a half dozen others (even in the NIV New Testament, from whence this text comes) that suggest or even clearly state that no one will be spared judgment.

Not that any of this is directly pertinent to the "IJ," which is a distinct component of the atonement process.
 
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Crosstian

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The IJ was/is a farce, a cover-up, for Jesus not returning in 1844 Crosstian. I admire you for going to GREAT LENGTHS to try to prove otherwise.
That's what the early Jews said about the "resurrection and ascension" story. It was a face-saving event they said, and it still is around today. Type and anti-type are eternally bound together.

If we are in Christ we will not be judged as per Jn5:24 ‘Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.Claim the promise!
Your translation ("judged") leads to an contradiction if read in a certain light, contradicting Ecclesiastes (Ecclesiastes 3:17, 12:13-14, etc).

Ecc 3:17 I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work.

Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
Ecc 12:14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

Psa_135:14 For the LORD will judge his people, and he will repent himself concerning his servants.

It is mentioned all over the OT and NT.

Paul even speaks of the righteous Judge, who judges Him:

2Ti_4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

The meaning is "condemnation" (see John 3:19) or that which comes of "judgment" (as in execution of a decision):

Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

It is also conditional in the very verse itself, "heareth my word" and "believeth" (an ongoing active living faith, not merely a one time event). The "everlasting life" is always "in Christ" (1 John 5:11).

During the Investigative Judgment, if one is in Christ Jesus, they have nothing to fear. They have everlasting Life. Yet, there is another group who merely mouth professes, but whose heart is far from him that need to fear.

There are 3 types of people on earth.

[1] true profession, spirit and in truth, heart/deeds
[2] false profession, mouth only, no fruits of righteousness
[3] never professing, the general lost

The Investigative Judgment only concerns [1] and [2], as for group [3], they are already condemned, as per the verse you cited and others.

The promise is mine already, and I acknowledge Matthew 18; Hebrews 6, etc with it.
 
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BobRyan

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Well, I can think of three man-made doctrines that come from the church you espouse.
One is the investigative judgment. This is a purely man-made invention .

You were already shown that it was first mentioned in Daniel 7 then in Romans 2, then in 2Cor 5:10 then in Rev 14:12...

Sep 22, 2019 #5

But this thread is on Col 2... join us in the topic of this thread. (or... did you think the investigative Judgment was being discussed by Paul in Col 2???)
 
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BobRyan

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Turns out - we may have someone new to the board with an interest in Col 2

Dale Ratzlaff, in his book "Sabbath in Christ", explains Colossians 2:16-17 very well, if anyone wants to read his book. He was a 3rd or 4th generation SDA, with several ancestors in ministry. He began to see the problems with their theology, and has addressed it in a free magazine called Proclamation!

since you mentioned Col 2 and "some other guy" - I will add your post to the Col 2 thread.

(I guess I could re-post the OP)
 
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HARK!

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The irony of people quoting Colossians 2 to promote their disobedience to the Sabbath/holy days, yet Paul was encouraging the Colossians to not let people(pagans) judge them for keeping the Sabbath/holy days.

it does make one wonder.
 
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