Went to 2 churches today

Cheryl6397

Active Member
Mar 9, 2018
77
72
60
Birmingham
✟33,306.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Lots of posts in this thread seem to boil down to...

h2E6F2466
So how do we "feel" Gods presence, or joy or any of the good things that come with loving God? Dont we need feelings to know?
Genuine question and no sarcasm included
 
Upvote 0

dzheremi

Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian
Aug 27, 2014
13,565
13,722
✟429,592.00
Country
United States
Faith
Oriental Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
So how do we "feel" Gods presence, or joy or any of the good things that come with loving God? Dont we need feelings to know?
Genuine question and no sarcasm included

Also no sarcasm intended: This is probably a question you should be asking yourself, not me, if you are going to determine proper eccelsiology based on how this or that particular church makes you feel. I don't particularly trust my own feelings that much, so it wouldn't even occur to me to ask that question. To quote (and censor) one of my favorite movies of all time (The Ref), who gives a rat's behind how I feel?

I'll put it this way: Sometimes when we reached the readings for the crucifixion during the Holy Week services, some of the readers in my congregation cried. Openly, with bitter tears, to the point of having to pause the reading to compose themselves. Since these readings were done in Arabic (because the diocese would send us priests from Egypt as a kind of gift for the Holy Week), which is far from my first language, they did not have that effect on me. I was more busy trying to make sure I could follow what was being described, rather than hanging on the gravity of every word or any particular word.

Would that mean that they (the readers) were truly feeling God or truly in His presence, whereas I (or anyone else who did not cry -- that would've been everyone, basically) was not? No. God is present among all His people, though our emotional reactions may be variable for any number of reasons.

So, no, I don't think we need our feelings; or rather, we sholdn't. I think we need our conviction that we pray as we believe and believe as we pray, so that when we gather together to worship the Lord in spirit and in truth, we can be assured that He is with us even when/if we do not necessarily feel some kind of spiritual or emotional ecstasy. Such times may come, but it is a sign of an unbalanced, un-sober spiritual life to depend on them. And Orthodoxy at this level definitely marked by spiritual sobriety and a commitment to the path that transcends all transitory feelings and emotions.
 
Upvote 0

jisaiah6113

Active Member
Oct 17, 2018
100
98
38
Arlington
✟16,443.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
The reason the Catholics here decry feelings and downplay the emotional part of Christian faith is because they know their tradition is dead, so that they have to focus on some historical argument for Catholics being the only true church. They are also picking on a straw man and not representing Protestant worship accurately. Just as Protestants charge Catholics with being works based and Mary based rather than Christ based. No, we cannot know what is going on in the heart and so to look at a Protestant lifting their hands in a church or a Catholic standing there rigidly doesn't tell the full story. You can be on your knees but your heart can be stone cold towards God. I have no problem with Catholics but they seem pretty dismissive towards religion that doesn't match theirs. It's easy to say that joy and peace aren't central to Christian experience and that would be your conclusion after hearing the words of the Novus Ordo Catholic Mass. It's all about "O God O Heavenly King, O God Almighty Father." It's not a very personal way to encounter God and it actually makes Him kind of distant and as someone to fear, not Someone you're excited to meet with every morning. Different strokes, different folks.
 
Upvote 0

rockytopva

Love to pray! :)
Site Supporter
Mar 6, 2011
20,046
7,674
.
Visit site
✟1,064,547.00
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Single
The German philosopher Arthur Schopenhauer stated that all truth goes through three steps: "First it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Finally, it is accepted as self-evident."

For a church group to violently oppose a group for not going along with them is a bad thing. Had I been born in Catholic times I would have perished in an inquisition for not going along with them. And, I believe the protestant reformation a good thing. But... Protestants can be just as bad if we are not careful. And I think the seperation of church and state also a good thing.

When mastery cometh, the God of Love anon beateth his wings, and farewell, he is gone! Love is a thing as any spirit free. - From the Canterbury Tales

It is almost like the Holy Spirit does not hesitate to say... Farewell! When a once revived group gets its head caught up on things outside his will. I simply fear when any group gets to the point where they arrived. Even in my own generation, Pentecostal Holiness, the revivals were a lot better in the last century.
 
Upvote 0

zoidar

loves Jesus the Christ! ✝️
Site Supporter
Sep 18, 2010
7,218
2,617
✟885,445.00
Country
Sweden
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
First was Catholic. I used to be one. But man, it was not a great time. Their idea of mass is all wrong. Its ritual repetitiveness is not my idea of a breathing Church at all. The pastor got up and said a few things and then everyone is forced to give the exact same responses throughout the procession. The hymns are still nice, but the atmosphere is depressing to say the least. It was like being in the assembly of the dead, that was the feeling.

Then I went to my protestant church with the guitars and joyful hymns. With the off-the-cuff pastors preaching the word into my life. This was much more comforting and indeed relevant to my christian walk than the hyper ritualized mass of RCC. Where we talked about community projects openly and took the sacraments in unison.

I want to encourage every Catholic on here to please try going to a protestant church at least once. Just to see how different it is. I think you're going to find it much more liberating.

I attend both, they are good in different ways. Sometimes I just need the silence in the high Church's.
 
  • Friendly
Reactions: anna ~ grace
Upvote 0

DamianWarS

Follower of Isa Al Masih
Site Supporter
May 15, 2008
9,486
3,322
✟858,457.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
First was Catholic. I used to be one. But man, it was not a great time. Their idea of mass is all wrong. Its ritual repetitiveness is not my idea of a breathing Church at all. The pastor got up and said a few things and then everyone is forced to give the exact same responses throughout the procession. The hymns are still nice, but the atmosphere is depressing to say the least. It was like being in the assembly of the dead, that was the feeling.

Then I went to my protestant church with the guitars and joyful hymns. With the off-the-cuff pastors preaching the word into my life. This was much more comforting and indeed relevant to my christian walk than the hyper ritualized mass of RCC. Where we talked about community projects openly and took the sacraments in unison.

I want to encourage every Catholic on here to please try going to a protestant church at least once. Just to see how different it is. I think you're going to find it much more liberating.

parts of both seem to miss the point.

 
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,138
33,258
✟583,842.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
the protestant church wasn't always like that. it was more in keeping with the catholic church. reverent, respectful and humble. no guitars, drums or hip pastors. and the preacher was always ordained. i hate what's happened to the protestant church.
Well, it is only some Protestant churches, you know. The churches of the Reformation have not gone that way. You're speaking of newer movements that are nevertheless classified as Protestant because there isn't any other classification.
 
Upvote 0

All4Christ

✙ The Handmaid of God Laura ✙
CF Senior Ambassador
Site Supporter
Mar 11, 2003
11,683
8,019
PA
Visit site
✟1,021,060.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
This subject is dear to my heart and as a Christian and someone who wants to commit himself completely as a disciple of Christ, it's concerning to me as the oneness my Lord prayed for has not occurred.

I attended a Coptic church for a few weeks. I finally got a job with Sundays off, so I'm concerned with finding a spiritual home to worship God and commune with other disciples. It was more based on an Egyptian culture and although no one was ever anything but kind towards me, it felt like there was an invisible wall that I would have to work hard to penetrate and I just wasn't interested. Today I attended a church more in line with my evangelical, Bible based upbringing. I had a great time and different churches emphasize different things.

The Coptic priest, in a class after Liturgy a few weeks ago, said about the Protestants, "we are united in love, but not in faith" as an expression of why Eucharist is denied them. That's a sad reality of the Christian world. I personally subscribe to the Branch theory (that all orthodox churches are expressions of Christ's faith and work on earth) despite its inherent contradictory conundrum. Many churches contradict each other, so to say they are all serving Christ in their own expression seems contradictory to the work of God and also undermines the claim of two church organizations which claim that they are the One and Only. That's why those churches have rejected this claim. Evangelical protestants generally don't have a problem with it.

I think in my case, the search for a perfect church experience is fleeting and ultimately vain unless I was to combine Protestant and Orthodox Divine Liturgy into one experience every Sunday. In my case, I have a need for a grand, majestic, weighty, holy, and formal experience of worshipping God. I feel the Catholic Mass is so climactic, especially as you approach the liturgy of the eucharist. I get their logic, that the Word of God leads to the "real event" which is Eucharist. Orthodox feel the same way, even though their liturgy is different.

I will stay Protestant because that's where I'm happiest. I decided to not become Catholic because the two most important ingredients in my conception of a Christian life were not there, nor were ever there for me. Joy and peace. Majesty, weightiness, reverence, and history were there. But not the peace of the Holy Spirit. That would be like marrying a woman who had beautiful fashion and incredible sophistication and social ability but lacked the gentle, quiet character that the Holy Spirit gives a woman. It would be a less than satisfying marriage. It's all about priorities.

Unfortunately, no one institutional church on Earth fulfills all the desires I have. No church checks "all the boxes." Reverence, majesty, cathedrals and beautiful iconography are generally not a part of the world I love, which is Protestant evangelicalism. I need those things, but my tradition emphasizes the words of Scripture as the front and center and an encounter with Jesus Christ through the Holy Spirit and among each other instead of reliance on ritualistic worship and the Eucharist.

I believe in general the churches are trying to achieve the same goal but have different ideas of what that culmination might be. For Catholics and Orthodox, taking the bread and wine is the culmination of experiencing Christ. From my point of view, that doesn't make sense and is actually kind of shallow, when you think that people are chewing on a wafer and thinking that that will somehow magically make them a disciple of Christ in the same way as a Christian who daily feasts on God's words, prays, fasts, does good, and fellowships with others.

Although we have lukewarmness and people attending church out of a sense of tradition in Protestantism, I believe this tendency is more pronounced among the Catholic and Orthodox because of the emphasis on tradition and this tendency to think that somehow chewing on a piece of bread is all you need to do to be a good Christian.

I know the John 6 interpretation and the fact that some early writers, even Paul, speak of the body and blood literally. I just think it's shallow to base the entire Christian life around that. Even the taking of communion at love feasts in the 1st century were done as a sign of community and shared love and commitment to Christ in my opinion, not as some sort of solemn ritual.

I don't believe there is any church alive that accurately represents the original Christian church because the original Christian church died. The church at Jerusalem, led by James the brother of Jesus, was the original Christian assembly. Probably Mary the mother of Jesus and some of the 12 apostles were part of this congregation. But the church died because it got too focused on Jewish observance and less on evangelism. We can see in the New Testament how Paul was really the one who spread the gospel across the known world. In his letter to the Galatians, Paul directly links the presence of evil Judaizers who influenced Peter and Barnabas to play the hypocrite by distancing themselves from Gentiles while eating, with the Jerusalem church. "Before certain men came from James, Peter would eat with the Gentiles. But once they came, he separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision." The Jerusalem church didn't come against Judaism from my understanding. They were more focused on preaching Jesus as Messiah and living peacefully among the Judeans. Eventually, the judgment of Jerusalem prophesied by Jesus came upon Jerusalem as Titus destroyed the city.

The reason we have Paul as the main promulgator of the gospel in the New Testament is because he was the one working the hardest to spread it to the known parts of the earth. A lot of the early believers in Jerusalem were content to just stay there and worship. We read in the book of Acts that it was only persecution that drove them out of the city and into other areas.

I've written a lot here, and I can write about 50 more pages, but I have come to realize that there is no Christian church which "has it all" for me. That's because there's a Savior who "has it all" for me. Like the dying thief on the cross, I don't want to cry out to the Orthodox or some other institutional, historic organization to save me. I know who will face me when I die and it won't be Rome, the pontiff, or the Orthodox leader in Antioch.
One note - speaking from the perspective of one who was Pentecostal who became Orthodox - I disagree strongly with the remarks on nominalistic being due to “chewing in a piece of bread...to be a good Christian”. From an Orthodox perspective, this is far from the truth. Partaking of the Eucharist can be a means of Grace, certainly, but it also can be to our condemnation. Also, we don’t believe in OSAS, which requires us to have a daily commitment to following Christ.

In many other churches, it came down to emotional feelings, attending services and the sinners prayer as being the things needed to be saved. (Certainly this is not always the case, and there are many varying teachings in Protestant churches....I’m not applying this to everyone.). Ultimately- it was just the sinners prayer in many churches. That can contribute to the sense of security and not needing to do anything else. That’s not the case in Orthodoxy and definitely isn’t what happens based on our beliefs of the Eucharist.

If anything, I think the cultural affiliation of some people with Orthodoxy and Catholicism (especially ethnic groups) provide the nominalism sometimes seem. This is not across the board, just as the problems I said with some Protestant beliefs are not across the board. It isn’t however related to the Eucharist.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: anna ~ grace
Upvote 0

His student

Well-Known Member
Jan 10, 2019
1,235
555
78
Northwest
✟48,602.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Where in any of Scripture does it say that happiness is the most essential part of the spiritual life?
You must have misread my post.

Please show me where I said that it was.

There are clearly at least two different kinds of services in the churches around the world. Some exude joy at our salvation and some are more somber.

The term "happy clappy" was coined by another poster not me. To the use of that term, someone asked where do we see them being all happy clappy at the crucifixion.

In that context that I made my reply.

My reply was that you don't see any of that kind of activity at the cross and there was good reason. They didn't understand what was being done for them by God and they certainly didn't have a justified status before God nor were they seated eternally with Christ in Heaven with Him as their advocate and sole intercessor.

"On what were its foundations set, or who laid its cornerstone, when the morning stars sang together And all the sons of God shouted for joy?" Job 38:6-7

If the sons of God shouted for joy when the foundation was laid for this old earth - how much more should they shout for joy at the thought of new Heaven and a new earth where God will live among His people?

"...there is joy before the angels of God over one sinner who repents." Luke 15:10

Can we not even see our way clear to celebrate with them in our church services?

"And David and all the house of Israel were celebrating before the Lord, with songs and lyres and harps and tambourines and castanets and cymbals......And David danced before the Lord with all his might. And David was wearing a linen ephod." 2 Samuel 6:5,14

Is there any reason why we who have actually seen and experience the salvation of God through Jesus Christ would do any less?

In Isaiah we are told that there will come a day when we will all shout for joy.

Isaiah 35:6
"Then the lame will leap like a deer and the mute tongue will shout for joy. For waters will gush forth in the wilderness, and streams in the desert."

That time, for those who know their eternal status before God - that time is now and they choose to act on it.

On the other hand - those who are only hoping to be saved some day if they "cooperate with God" well enough in this life will have to wait for that leaping clapping joy to spill over.

I have fully agreed that there is room for a number of styles of worship in the Body of Christ.

I have merely pointed out why joyful open celebration is not as common in the Catholic churches. For that matter - the same could be obviouslysaid for the Orthodox churches IMO.

When one is merely hoping for salvation some day - there will obviously be less exuberant joy than when one has assurance of their present salvation.

I hope that clears things up.

Again - happy clappy was not my term.
 
  • Like
Reactions: rockytopva
Upvote 0

anna ~ grace

Newbie
Site Supporter
May 9, 2010
9,071
11,925
✟108,146.93
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I would say that following Christ is a living thing. It's a journey. It's a journey which many Christians make through and with and with the help of their Apostolic Church, inside of their Church as within an ark, together, whether they feel joy, consolation, or sorrow.

It is a journey which many Christians make with the Saints, and with their help. It's a journey we make with the Eucharist, with and because of Christ, through slow times, and active times.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Silverback

Well-Known Member
Feb 13, 2019
1,306
854
61
South East
✟66,766.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
First was Catholic. I used to be one. But man, it was not a great time. Their idea of mass is all wrong. Its ritual repetitiveness is not my idea of a breathing Church at all. The pastor got up and said a few things and then everyone is forced to give the exact same responses throughout the procession. The hymns are still nice, but the atmosphere is depressing to say the least. It was like being in the assembly of the dead, that was the feeling.

Then I went to my protestant church with the guitars and joyful hymns. With the off-the-cuff pastors preaching the word into my life. This was much more comforting and indeed relevant to my christian walk than the hyper ritualized mass of RCC. Where we talked about community projects openly and took the sacraments in unison.

I want to encourage every Catholic on here to please try going to a protestant church at least once. Just to see how different it is. I think you're going to find it much more liberating.

Not all Protestant denominations are the same. If you were a Catholic, you would notice many similarities in the Lutheran, and Anglican faith. Some have VARYING degrees of contemporary worship, others (like my church) have a traditional service on Sunday mornings with liturgy straight out of the hymnal, with traditional hymns, and communion.

Our Sunday evening service is the same with more modern songs, and a small band. No waving of arms, jumping, amens, tongue speaking, miraculous healing, or, altar calls.

Personally, I dislike contemporary worship, but there is nothing wrong with it as long as the word is proclaimed, the sacraments are administered correctly, and everything is done decently, and in order.

There are several thousand denominations, and churches world wide that fall under the definition of "Protestant"...and there is a lot to unpack.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: anna ~ grace
Upvote 0

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
37,438
26,879
Pacific Northwest
✟731,845.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
True joy comes from humble service between Christians and unity with Christ and his teachings. In faithful repentance. No rock concert, or fiery preaching, or even laying on of the hands can substitute. The problem is most Christians have never experienced true Joy, so they cannot tell the difference between it and momentary ecstasy.

To hear the words "Your sins are forgiven", and to receive the flesh and blood of our Lord is awe and joy unexpressable. I never experienced joy like I did the first time I heard, "The body of Christ, broken for you."

It is a joy filled silence, of immense gratitude. The King of the Universe, here, giving Himself, to me, a mere beggar.

"Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high; I cannot attain it." (Psalm 139:6)

-CryptoLutheran
 
Upvote 0

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
37,438
26,879
Pacific Northwest
✟731,845.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
So how do we "feel" Gods presence, or joy or any of the good things that come with loving God? Dont we need feelings to know?
Genuine question and no sarcasm included

The presumption is that we can feel God's presence. I'm not saying one cannot feel it--but should we presume that we can, or that we even should?

In truth, if we understand the One we worship, we would rightly be like the Children of Israel, who hearing the thunder from the mountain top are in dread fear, crying out for Moses to speak on God's behalf.

The naked God is Awesome and Dreadful, saying "No one may see Me and live".

That's why we have our Mediator, Jesus Christ. For we encounter God, not naked as on Mt. Horeb; but rather we meet God as He has condescended, come down, to meet us. Clothed, as it were, in Christ. And it is in and through Christ that we know God. And so it is here, in Word and Sacrament, that God in Christ gives Himself to us.

There are many feelings we may have as we ponder such mysteries. But the Eternal cannot be reduced to feeling. He is, after all, the Ineffable and Almighty. Vast and beyond all things. He is God, let the mountains tremble, and the trees of the forest cry out, and the stars in the heavens declare His majesty.

We come before the Throne of Grace, clothed in Jesus and His righteousness, bold in our faith, humbly in our weakness. Meeting the Unfathomable in the Jesus who is with us "even unto the end of the age", for He who is enthroned at the right hand of the Father is here, in our midst; in and under the bread and wine, in the pure word of His Gospel which is to us and for us.

It's not about feelings. It's about the objective truth of Christ, the Crucified and Risen Lord.

-CryptoLutheran
 
Upvote 0

Not David

I'm back!
Apr 6, 2018
7,356
5,235
25
USA
✟231,310.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
The reason the Catholics here decry feelings and downplay the emotional part of Christian faith is because they know their tradition is dead, so that they have to focus on some historical argument for Catholics being the only true church. They are also picking on a straw man and not representing Protestant worship accurately. Just as Protestants charge Catholics with being works based and Mary based rather than Christ based. No, we cannot know what is going on in the heart and so to look at a Protestant lifting their hands in a church or a Catholic standing there rigidly doesn't tell the full story. You can be on your knees but your heart can be stone cold towards God. I have no problem with Catholics but they seem pretty dismissive towards religion that doesn't match theirs. It's easy to say that joy and peace aren't central to Christian experience and that would be your conclusion after hearing the words of the Novus Ordo Catholic Mass. It's all about "O God O Heavenly King, O God Almighty Father." It's not a very personal way to encounter God and it actually makes Him kind of distant and as someone to fear, not Someone you're excited to meet with every morning. Different strokes, different folks.
And Evangelicals do the same with Catholics.
 
Upvote 0

fhansen

Oldbie
Sep 3, 2011
13,923
3,538
✟323,509.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
First was Catholic. I used to be one. But man, it was not a great time. Their idea of mass is all wrong. Its ritual repetitiveness is not my idea of a breathing Church at all. The pastor got up and said a few things and then everyone is forced to give the exact same responses throughout the procession. The hymns are still nice, but the atmosphere is depressing to say the least. It was like being in the assembly of the dead, that was the feeling.

Then I went to my protestant church with the guitars and joyful hymns. With the off-the-cuff pastors preaching the word into my life. This was much more comforting and indeed relevant to my christian walk than the hyper ritualized mass of RCC. Where we talked about community projects openly and took the sacraments in unison.

I want to encourage every Catholic on here to please try going to a protestant church at least once. Just to see how different it is. I think you're going to find it much more liberating.
I used to enjoy Protestant services as you describe here too. But the purpose of the Mass is different from fellowship and bible study. And while it may seem mechanical at times, that also depends on the disposition of the individual. Either way that particular celebration has a purpose that extends to the beginning of our faith, as can be witnessed as virtually identical in any of the ancient churches east and west. We're not there to be entertained; there are other venues for that.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: anna ~ grace
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

jisaiah6113

Active Member
Oct 17, 2018
100
98
38
Arlington
✟16,443.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
I think there's just a difference in emphasis here. It just weighs credibility to the notion that all people here are Christians but what they think that idea consists of is different. For some, it's the Eucharist. In Protestant churches, it's God's words, which I might add, are every bit as powerful if not more powerful than that bread and wine you're receiving.

In Protestant low church, you worship God corporately in order to prepare to hear the word of the Lord given by a pastor. The New Testament designates some to be pastors and teachers.

There is probably a lack of repentance in Evangelical churches that could make them shallow in their experience of God. To approach the King of Glory presumptuously without having repented is like walking to the White House to meet POTUS in sandals while he's wearing a suit and tie, but infinitely worse.

I understand the Orthodox perspective and I like my Protestant heritage. It's the emphasis on the word of God that brings me back because that's the milk I was raised on growing up. I listened to the Psalms on casette tape in bed until I feel asleep as a child.

For me, to transition from the glory of God's word in scripture to chanting things like "bless the crown of the year and the fruits" and these traditions at Catholic Mass which are probably inventions of some bishop at the Vatican who may or may not have known Christ is a big step down for me. I would gladly be Catholic or Orthodox if they exalted the scripture to its rightful place but they don't. They subordinate it to the bread and wine and the ritual to a lesser extent. I understand the view, I just don't agree with it. But I respect the Orthodox.

And I have to add that there's a lot of prejudice here and straw men. I probably mischaracterized what the Eucharist is. Certainly Orthodox don't believe that chewing on a piece of bread leads them to life eternal. I hope they don't, although it's none of my business. To them it isn't a piece of bread.

Similarly the Catholics here are mischaracterizing Protestant low church worship when they say that they are all about emotional ecstacy and feelings. Feelings are a part of how we encounter God but most of us aren't there to simply get our emotions whipped up. We happen to believe that we're actually worshipping God and the senses being included in that is not necessarily wrong.

Do you season your food before you eat it? If so, why? It makes the experience more enjoyable.

There's nothing wrong with enjoying God's presence. Paul said the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit. None of those things were present for me in five years of attending Mass and learning about that faith.

I have a question for Catholics and Orthodox Christians. Why is the eating of the bread and wine the source and summit of your faith when it is only mentioned a handful of times in the New Testament? You have the bread of life discourse in John 6, the institution of the Lord's supper in the synoptic gospels, and the one passage about Eucharist from Paul, mentioned in one letter out of 13. I'll grant that these all mean that the Eucharist is literal.

If 99.5% of the New Testament has nothing to do with Eucharist, but with doctrine, exhortation, moral instruction, recounting Jesus' life, and prophecy, why is Eucharist the center of your faith and Christian experience? Because the early church practiced it? And if it was the center of their faith, why was it so ignored among the writers of holy scripture, all of which was recorded in the 1st century AD from what we know? You could make just as strong a case that tongue speaking and prophecy should be the core of Christian faith, for they are mentioned just as much as Eucharist. And yet your church neglects the discussion of those things.

Same goes for Mary as mother of God. Her prominence in Catholicism and Orthodoxy turns Protestants off because the apostles constantly open their epistles with "grace to you and peace from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord" and "blessed be the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ". The latter was written by St Peter and I find it curious that he didn't open his epistle with, "Hail gracious Lady who through the flesh bears salvation of all!" Since he is supposedly the first Pope I wonder why he neglects to mention Marian devotion. All of this is historical outgrowth which Protestants reject.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
37,438
26,879
Pacific Northwest
✟731,845.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
The reason the Catholics here decry feelings and downplay the emotional part of Christian faith is because they know their tradition is dead,

This really couldn't be further from the truth actually. Jesus is very much alive.

-CryptoLutheran
 
  • Agree
Reactions: anna ~ grace
Upvote 0

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
37,438
26,879
Pacific Northwest
✟731,845.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
I can only speak to my experience. But the truth is that, in spite of all the language of divine intimacy I heard growing up; of "entering into God's presence" or "feeling God's presence", no matter how good the "tingling" feelings I might have gotten during times of heightened emotion, there was always a gnawing absence.

It's only been, in years since then, that I've been able to recognize why. It's because there was a deep absence of Jesus in the worship. That needs some unpacking, because I'm not saying we didn't mention Jesus (of course we did), but rather it was almost always the glorious Jesus. And in spite of language of intimacy, it was really more about personal--even pseudo-romantic--in tone.

But what I wasn't getting was the language of the Incarnation. The flesh-and-blood Jesus Christ who bore cross, death, and weakness.

It was glory, no cross.

And so it always ended up boiling down to me "meeting" God on my own terms. Me seeking to attain God, going up to meet Him. And that's completely backward, "Who will ascend into the heavens?" (Romans 10:6), it is not about me meeting God in His glory, it is about the Christ who meets us in weakness and suffering. It is about the One who bore our flesh, bore our death, and bore cross and shame. It is only by Him that we have been brought beyond the veil,

"We have this as a sure and steadfast anchor of the soul, a hope that enters into the inner place behind the curtain, where Jesus has gone as a forerunner on our behalf, having become a high priest forever after the order of Melchizedek." - Hebrews 6:19-20

"Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus, by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water." - Hebrews 10:19-22

We are not the Kohen Gadol, the high priest, in the inner sanctuary; but rather there is Christ. And it is in Christ that we know God, meet God.

It is through the cross, not in glory, that God is found. It is the Incarnate Jesus, Crucified and Risen, living, that we have our God. For it is written, "No one has at any time seen God, but the only-begotten Son, He has made Him known." (John 1:18), and also our Lord has said, "If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him." (John 14:7) For Christ shows us the Father, in Christ--the eternal and only-begotten Son of the Father--the Father is known. We don't know Him apart from Christ, because apart from Christ we have only the thunderous noise on the mountain, the fire and smoke of the wilderness.

And so to seek God in glory does not bring closeness, but only reveals the infinite distance between ourselves and God. God remains firmly far and away--a glory hidden behind a veil. Dreadful and Sublime, Awesome and Glorious.

When men seek the Unknown God, they never know Him, not really. Even Moses only beheld the "hindquarters" of God. They are like the Athenians, worshiping that which they do not know--Divine, Hidden in glory.

But Christ brings us before the Father. Not by our attaining heights of glory, but by Him coming down.

The Eucharist isn't our ascending to heaven to pull God down. It is Christ meeting us in such meager gifts as bread and wine. Here is the Crucified, by whom and in whom we have access to the Throne of Grace, drawn behind the veil to where the Great High Priest has made sacrifice once and for all, the offering of Himself for the world. Christ who died, Christ who rose, has made peace for us with God, reconciled us with God, forgiving us all our sins, cleansing us of all our iniquity. Here is God's Shalom, the Peace of God. For God and man have met together in the one undivided Person of Jesus; and in Jesus God and and men have communion, peace, Shalom--life and covenant, bread and wine, body and blood. Jesus Christ and His Church, His Body, with His body. Here is the Sacrifice of Praise, the Holy of Holies, and sinners have everlasting life.

-CryptoLutheran
 
Upvote 0

PaulCyp1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Mar 4, 2018
1,075
849
78
Massachusetts
✟239,255.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Interesting, since I just got back from a Catholic Mass filled with guitar music and joyful hymns. But more important, I heard the fullness of truth, the Word of God presented with absolute authority and accuracy, just as Jesus Christ promised, not just what some Protestant minister thinks it means.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

jisaiah6113

Active Member
Oct 17, 2018
100
98
38
Arlington
✟16,443.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Interesting discussion though about the merits of "feelings" which is really just the senses encountering God. I find it fitting that the churches that don't have a lot of emotional excitement are the same folks that say that feelings are not important in our encounter with God, whereas Protestants might think otherwise. I can definitely see how feelings can lead us astray in worship and how "feeling" something doesn't mean it's God.
 
Upvote 0