Mormons Heavenly is rather malicious when it comes to forgiveness

JohnAshton said:

No, that is your thought, not the logical development of the philosophy you call "Mormon forgiveness". The more people focus on Christ the more, as works born of grace, the more they will work on doing good. I suggest all here to focus on Christ, and the rest will follow.

Striking nerves? You are projecting. Focus on Christ, lean on Christ, love Christ.​

Click to expand...

You apparently know very little about the purpose of Debate Other Religions & Faiths, and you don't know much about Mormonism.

Doctrine and Covenants 130
20 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—

21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.


This is what the LDS teach about the Bible:

Book of Mormon, 1 Nephi 13: 24-29
24 And the angel of the Lord said unto me: Thou hast beheld that the book proceeded forth from the mouth of a Jew; and when it proceeded forth from the mouth of a Jew it contained the fulness of the gospel of the Lord, of whom the twelve apostles bear record; and they bear record according to the truth which is in the Lamb of God.

25 Wherefore, these things go forth from the Jews in purity unto the Gentiles, according to the truth which is in God.

26 And after they go forth by the hand of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, from the Jews unto the Gentiles, thou seest the formation of that great and abominable church, which is most abominable above all other churches; for behold, they have taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away.

27 And all this have they done that they might pervert the right ways of the Lord, that they might blind the eyes and harden the hearts of the children of men.

28 Wherefore, thou seest that after the book hath gone forth through the hands of the great and abominable church, that there are many plain and precious things taken away from the book, which is the book of the Lamb of God.

29 And after these plain and precious things were taken away it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles; and after it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles, yea, even across the many waters which thou hast seen with the Gentiles which have gone forth out of captivity, thou seest—because of the many plain and precious things which have been taken out of the book, which were plain unto the understanding of the children of men, according to the plainness which is in the Lamb of God—because of these things which are taken away out of the gospel of the Lamb, an exceedingly great many do stumble, yea, insomuch that Satan hath great power over them.
1 Nephi 13


Nephi sees in vision the church of the devil set up among the Gentiles, the discovery and colonizing of America, the loss of many plain and precious parts of the Bible, the resultant state of gentile apostasy, the restoration of the gospel, the coming forth of latter-day scripture, and the building up of Zion. About 600–592 B.C.
1 Nephi 13

Book of Mormon, 1 Nephi 14
10 And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the harlot of all the earth.


Joseph Smith taught:
I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book. (History of the Church, 4:461).


Even though some of you may be fully occupied with families and have little time for other things at this stage of your lives, you can enlarge your minds and broaden your understanding through the reading of good books . . . You may think you are too busy. Ten or fifteen minutes a day with the scriptures, and particularly with the Book of Mormon, can give you marvelous understanding of the power of the Almighty for the blessing of His children.
Gordon B. Hinckley, “Rise to the Stature of the Divine within You,” Ensign, Nov 1989, 94
Rise to the Stature of the Divine within You

I've studied this religion for more than fifty years. Let me know if you have any questions.

Ironhold said:

Nutshell: You can't just say "I'm saved!" and treat that as a "get out of jail free" card. If you want to be forgiven, you have to show that you're a changed person.

Click to expand...

That is not how forgiveness works. You are forgiven, then you act the part. You can not earn forgiveness. It is not possible to make ourselves worthy of it. We ask for it, are given it, and act accordingly. If you continue in sin---then you will have to be forgiven again if you ask. Jesus never once requested for anyone to act forgiven before He forgave them, He forgave them and then told them to sin no more.

Joh_5:14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing befall thee.
Joh_8:11 And she said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said, Neither do I condemn thee: go thy way; from henceforth sin no more.

No, that is your thought, not the logical development of the philosophy you call "Mormon forgiveness". The more people focus on Christ the more, as works born of grace, the more they will work on doing good. I suggest all here to focus on Christ, and the rest will follow.

Striking nerves? You are projecting. Focus on Christ, lean on Christ, love Christ.

twin.spin said:

Projecting ... hardly. Scripture does not teach: "The more people focus on Christ the more, works born of grace, the more they will work on doing good".

Furthermore what Kimball stated is not my thought … it's "Mormon forgiveness".

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Scripture certainly teaches that works, born of grace, are scriptural in nature.

Col 2:6 (KJV) As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him.

2 Cor 9:8 (NIV) And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that in all things at all times, having all that you need, you will abound in every good work.

Because we are saved by grace through faith, grace must result in good works.

twin.spin said: Projecting ... hardly. Scripture does not teach: "The more people focus on Christ the more, works born of grace, the more they will work on doing good".

Furthermore what Kimball stated is not my thought … it's "Mormon forgiveness".

Click to expand...

John Ashton said: Scripture certainly teaches that works, born of grace, are scriptural in nature.

Col 2:6 (KJV) As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him.

2 Cor 9:8 (NIV) And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that in all things at all times, having all that you need, you will abound in every good work.

Because we are saved by grace through faith, grace must result in good works.

Click to expand...

TheArmorofGod said "Phoebe said it best when stated: "You apparently know very little about the purpose of Debate Other Religions & Faiths, and you don't know much about Mormonism."

I'm going to leave it at this: This purpose of this OP was several fold:

1. Focus on how burdensome "Mormon forgiveness" is specifically worded by Kimball (a LDS prophet who according to Mormonism, no true prophet leads falsely)
2. That such deliberate conditional "Mormon forgiveness" being required of a person for an individual to be left in limbo (potentially for centuries ) for the positive assurance to be forgiven by Heavenly Father speaks more to the insidious nature of such a LDS creed.
3. Such a LDS creed speaks more about the purportrators of such than it does the poor souls who are victims of such falsehood

Phoebe said it best when stated: "You apparently know very little about the purpose of Debate Other Religions & Faiths, and you don't know much about Mormonism."

I'm going to leave it at this: This purpose of this OP was several fold:

1. Focus on how burdensome "Mormon forgiveness" is specifically worded by Kimball (a LDS prophet who according to Mormonism, no true prophet leads falsely)
2. That such deliberate conditional "Mormon forgiveness" being required of a person for an individual to be left in limbo (potentially for centuries ) for the positive assurance to be forgiven by Heavenly Father speaks more to the insidious nature of such a LDS creed.
3. Such a LDS creed speaks more about the purportrators of such than it does the poor souls who are victims of such falsehood"

Click to expand...

attacking personality merely reveals the weakness of the argument that follows

Scripture is clear that the "Mormon forgiveness' arguments proceed from a ASAS basic, which is false. Please stick with arguments and not personal attacks.

From this subforum's Statement of Purpose:

Specific Forum Guidelines

• Debates are only between orthodox Christian members and members of the specific non-Christian religion or faith being challenged.

In other words, if neither of you are Mormons, you shouldn't be debating each other right now. Stop.

He is the way said:

It does depend on why they are trying to do good, but remember that the law is the schoolmaster. We learn to LOVE God and one another by keeping the commandments.

Click to expand...

The Law is a schoolmaster because it points to Christ. But it is also a harsh schoolmaster, since the Law condemns us. Which is why nobody can be just under the Law.

The Law commands that we love. And if we love God then we should be obedient and obey His commandments. As it is written, "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and all your strength"--and yet we do not. As it is also written, "There is no one righteous, no, not one" and "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God".

The Law doesn't fix the broken and wayward heart, the heart of man about whom the Prophet Jeremiah writes when he says, "The heart is wicked above all else, and desperately sick, who can understand it?"

And if the Law could provide these things, then we should expect that the most studious observers of God's commandments--the Scribes and Pharisees--should be the most just; and yet what does Christ say? "Woe to you Scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites!" Though they sat in the Seat of Moses, they did not practice what they preach.

The hypocrisy of the Opinio Legis is that it leads men to believe they are righteous when they are unrighteous. Thinking themselves holy when they are wretches. That somehow by tithing their spices, or by dutifully wearing their phylacteries in accordance with Torah that they were, in fact, just. When, in fact, their hypocrisy was on full display. What does the Prophet Micah say? "He has told you, O mortal, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you? But to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God." For this reason the Prophet Hosea says, "I desire mercy, not sacrifice, the knowledge of God, not burnt offerings".

And so Christ says, "If only you had known the meaning of 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the innocent."

If you knew the Law you would tremble, for you are a great sinner.
And if you know God's mercy, you will rejoice, for Christ is the Savior of the sinful and the downtrodden.

But the hypocrite says he can be righteous by the Law, because he ignores the Law and sets up his own list of rules to puff up the prideful and sinful heart. For the Law demands total and complete obedience, to love your neighbor as yourself. But men, unable to abide in this commandment, instead prefer their own laws, "Don't touch!" "Don't taste!"

"There is nothing outside a person that by going into him can defile him, but the things that come out of a person are what defile him."

-CryptoLutheran

twin.spin said:

Phoebe said it best when stated: "You apparently know very little about the purpose of Debate Other Religions & Faiths, and you don't know much about Mormonism."

I'm going to leave it at this: This purpose of this OP was several fold:

1. Focus on how burdensome "Mormon forgiveness" is specifically worded by Kimball (a LDS prophet who according to Mormonism, no true prophet leads falsely)

   Click to expand...

2. That such deliberate conditional "Mormon forgiveness" being required of a person for an individual to be left in limbo (potentially for centuries ) for the positive assurance to be forgiven by Heavenly Father speaks more to the insidious nature of such a LDS creed.
3. Such a LDS creed speaks more about the purportrators of such than it does the poor souls who are victims of such falsehood

Click to expand...

Focus on how burdensome "Mormon forgiveness" is specifically worded by Kimball (a LDS prophet who according to Mormonism, no true prophet leads falsely)

Click to expand...

Let's see, the Church of Jesus Christ says that a person who is trying to repent of a sin, needs to feel sorry about having committed a sin. That person prays for forgiveness to God and tries their best to make amends for their sin.

To you, this repentance and forgiveness process somehow has an insidious nature, and the poor repentant soul is somehow a victim of such a horrible and devilish scheme?

For you to attack our process to obtain full forgiveness and receive an assurance that we are forgiven, all I can say is: you need to step away from studying any more about the Mormon church. You study only to find dark and insidious doctrines that fills your mind with dark and devilish thoughts that are not good for you or for those you preach to.

My advise to you is to step away. Focus on the bible and your Savior and the bright light that is brought into the world by him. Study Jesus Christ only or in some way, you may be the victim of your own dark studies, which, BTW has nothing to do with Mormonism.

So step away, you are possessed, and I only hope you can escape it.

JohnAshton said:

attacking personality merely reveals the weakness of the argument that follows

Scripture is clear that the "Mormon forgiveness' arguments proceed from a ASAS basic, which is false. Please stick with arguments and not personal attacks.

Click to expand...

What is an ASAS basic?

mmksparbud said:

That is not how forgiveness works. You are forgiven, then you act the part. You can not earn forgiveness. It is not possible to make ourselves worthy of it. We ask for it, are given it, and act accordingly. If you continue in sin---then you will have to be forgiven again if you ask. Jesus never once requested for anyone to act forgiven before He forgave them, He forgave them and then told them to sin no more.

Joh_5:14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing befall thee.
Joh_8:11 And she said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said, Neither do I condemn thee: go thy way; from henceforth sin no more.

Click to expand...

That is what we say also. "you are forgiven, then you act the part". If you do not act the part then are you still forgiven?
OR
Could it take days or weeks or years or centuries before you get around to acting the part? The forgiveness that Jesus gave was certainly based on "acting the part".

We say that "acting the part" is doing what you can to make amends for your sin. For instance, if you stole $100 from the wallet of a man, it would be part of the repentance and forgiveness process to return that $100 and make that man whole again. Is that a devilish undertaking or is that worthy of doing good to your neighbor? I say that is "acting the part". You may disagree, and that is OK, but please do not attack me for a good work as I "act the part" of sinning no more.

Let us live our religions as we think is proper. Thank you.

Phoebe Ann said:

You apparently know very little about the purpose of Debate Other Religions & Faiths, and you don't know much about Mormonism.

Click to expand...

To attack our "repentance and forgivenss" process as somehow a diabolical malicious monster doctrine, tells me you know very little about Mormonism too.

This forum is to discuss Mormonism with Mormons. You have taken this forum as an opportunity to expose people to what you think the Mormons are. You discuss very little, but preach a whole lot.

I don't think that is what is meant by "outreach". For you this forum is more "expose", than "outreach".

Peter1000 said:

What is an ASAS basic?

Click to expand...

I had to edit "asas" as "osas". Once Saved Always Saved.

JohnAshton said:

attacking personality merely reveals the weakness of the argument that follows

Scripture is clear that the "Mormon forgiveness' arguments proceed from a ASAS basic, which is false. Please stick with arguments and not personal attacks.

Click to expand...

So you are saying that the arguments against 'Mormon forgiveness' are based on OSAS doctrine.

I agree with you, and I agree OSAS is a false doctrine

Phoebe Ann said:

If someone is raped, the rapist is the one who needs forgiveness. But we aren't talking about what people do to us. We're talking about the requirements for etenal life per Mormonism. You always want to change the topic; you ignored my post and repeated information I had already given.

The word of wisdom is very difficult to keep for a person who may have started smoking at age fourteen. I've never smoked, and I won't allow alcohol in my house. That doesn't make me worthier than other Christians.

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Smoking is a very hard habit to break. My son smoked for many years and found it extremely hard to quit. He finally quit when he got a cancer scare from a growth in his lungs. Thank heavens it was not cancer. I don't think anyone has had a hard time elimination coffee or tea from their diet.The temple recommend interview questions were modified today in conference.

Phoebe Ann said:

Coffee isn't disguised.

mo·cha
/ˈmōkə/
noun

1. 
   a fine-quality coffee.
   "Kenyan, Colombian or mocha coffee

Are you saying that people are uneducated or are you saying that they have difficulty learning?

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I am saying that a young person may not know that a mocha shake has coffee in it.

twin.spin said:

Phoebe is fulling what is commanded concerning creeds like those coming from Mormonism:​

Ephesians 5:11
"Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them."​

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So what are these fruitless deeds of darkness? Here is a cross reference:

Proverbs 1:10
My son, if sinners entice you, do not yield to them.

Proverbs 28:4
Those who forsake the law praise the wicked, but those who keep the law resist them.

John 3:20
Everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come into the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.

Acts 26:18
to open their eyes, so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those sanctified by faith in Me.'

Romans 13:12
The night is nearly over; the day has drawn near. So let us lay aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light.

1 Corinthians 5:9
I wrote you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people.

2 Corinthians 6:14
Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership can righteousness have with wickedness? Or what fellowship does light have with darkness?

Ephesians 5:12
For it is shameful even to mention what the disobedient do in secret.

Colossians 1:12
giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in the light.

1 Timothy 5:20
But those who persist in sin should be rebuked in front of everyone, so that the others will stand in fear of sin.

1 Timothy 5:22
Do not be too quick in the laying on of hands and thereby share in the sins of others. Keep yourself pure.

2 John 1:11
Whoever greets such a person shares in his evil deeds.

Treasury of Scripture
And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

no.

Ephesians 5:7
Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

Genesis 49:5-7
Simeon and Levi are brethren; instruments of cruelty are in their habitations…

Psalm 1:1,2
Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful…

unfruitful.

Proverbs 1:31
Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.

Isaiah 3:10,11
Say ye to the righteous, that it shall be well with him: for they shall eat the fruit of their doings…

Romans 6:21
What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.

works.

Ephesians 4:22
That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

Job 24:13-17
They are of those that rebel against the light; they know not the ways thereof, nor abide in the paths thereof…

John 3:19-21
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil…

but.

Genesis 20:16
And unto Sarah he said, Behold, I have given thy brother a thousand pieces of silver: behold, he is to thee a covering of the eyes, unto all that are with thee, and with all other: thus she was reproved.

Leviticus 19:17
Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.

Psalm 141:5
Let the righteous smite me; it shall be a kindness: and let him reprove me; it shall be an excellent oil, which shall not break my head: for yet my prayer also shall be in their calamities.

ViaCrucis said:

The Law is a schoolmaster because it points to Christ. But it is also a harsh schoolmaster, since the Law condemns us. Which is why nobody can be just under the Law.

The Law commands that we love. And if we love God then we should be obedient and obey His commandments. As it is written, "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and all your strength"--and yet we do not. As it is also written, "There is no one righteous, no, not one" and "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God".

The Law doesn't fix the broken and wayward heart, the heart of man about whom the Prophet Jeremiah writes when he says, "The heart is wicked above all else, and desperately sick, who can understand it?"

And if the Law could provide these things, then we should expect that the most studious observers of God's commandments--the Scribes and Pharisees--should be the most just; and yet what does Christ say? "Woe to you Scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites!" Though they sat in the Seat of Moses, they did not practice what they preach.

The hypocrisy of the Opinio Legis is that it leads men to believe they are righteous when they are unrighteous. Thinking themselves holy when they are wretches. That somehow by tithing their spices, or by dutifully wearing their phylacteries in accordance with Torah that they were, in fact, just. When, in fact, their hypocrisy was on full display. What does the Prophet Micah say? "He has told you, O mortal, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you? But to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God." For this reason the Prophet Hosea says, "I desire mercy, not sacrifice, the knowledge of God, not burnt offerings".

And so Christ says, "If only you had known the meaning of 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the innocent."

If you knew the Law you would tremble, for you are a great sinner.
And if you know God's mercy, you will rejoice, for Christ is the Savior of the sinful and the downtrodden.

But the hypocrite says he can be righteous by the Law, because he ignores the Law and sets up his own list of rules to puff up the prideful and sinful heart. For the Law demands total and complete obedience, to love your neighbor as yourself. But men, unable to abide in this commandment, instead prefer their own laws, "Don't touch!" "Don't taste!"

"There is nothing outside a person that by going into him can defile him, but the things that come out of a person are what defile him."

-CryptoLutheran

Click to expand...

You said: "The Law commands that we love. And if we love God then we should be obedient and obey His commandments. As it is written, "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and all your strength"--and yet we do not. As it is also written, "There is no one righteous, no, not one" and "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God"."

Our goal is to become like Jesus Christ. We may have sinned, but that does not mean we must continue to sin. The Bible states that we should no longer sin.:

(New Testament | Romans 6:1 - 12)

1 WHAT shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

He is the way said:

12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Click to expand...

*cough*

List of Joseph Smith's wives - Wikipedia

Mhm.

Also, the same apostle who wrote all of what you just quoted also wrote the following only one chapter after the one you are quoting:

14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?

+++

So, y'know...it might be a bit more complex than "Just don't do it anymore".

Abba Anthony said to Abba Poemen, ‘This is the great work of a man: to always to take the blame for his own sins before God, and to expect temptation to his last breath.’