Dave Watchman

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Well, Abaddon is a different person than the Antichrist. Abaddon is the angel over the flesh tormenting locust and comes out of the bottomless pit.

The Antichrist, differently, comes from the north and west from the kingdom of the ten kings of Daniel 7.


They had as king over them the angel of the Abyss, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon and in Greek is Apollyon (that is, Destroyer)


The bottomless pit or abyss sounds like a good place to keep him behind the scenes so he can't physically appear. I imagine if it weren't for him being tied up there we would see him on TV.

What I'm saying is that the angel King of the Abyss is the same fierce-looking King of Dan.8 where he is called the little horn. Just read the descriptions of the little horn. Paul calls him "the man of lawlessness" and "the man doomed to destruction". Daniel says "He will be destroyed, but not by human power"

Isaiah also called him a man:

“Is this the man who shook the earth
and made kingdoms tremble,


At the fifth trumpet, the devil will likely be let out of his spirit home also called the abyss and will appear as a man. When he does appear, the vast majority will be astonished and amazed. Smart guys like you and me won't be fooled by the tricks he does though, our names should be found written in The Book. After the tribulation is over the angel will grab him and put him back into the abyss again for 1,000 years. (Revelation 20)


The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction.
(but not by human power)
 
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IIRC, the original text of Daniel in Hebrew or Aramaic says 2300 'evenings and mornings.'

The Torah commanded that sacrifice of the tamid take place twice a day, at the morning and at the evening. If this verse is referring to the morning and evening sacrfices you are actually dealing with half as many real days. That would be 1150 days or just over 3 years. This corresponds almost perfectly with the duration of the Maccabean Revolt against Antiochus Epiphanes from 170 to 167 BC.

No 1150 days.

The sum of:
„ye shall have tribulation 10 days“ (see Revelation 2: 10; Daniel 1: 12-15)
+ „2300 evenings - mornings... then shall the sanctuary be cleansed“ (2300 days) (see Daniel 8:14)
+ „7 months ... cleanse the land“ [7x30 = 210 days (see Ezekiel 39: 12-15)]
results as follows: 10 + 2300 + 210 = 2520 days
or
2520 days - these are the last 7 years (7x360 = 2520 days); (1260+1260 = 2520);
i.e. the last 7 of the years - „ the time of the end“ (see Daniel 12: 4,9), mentioned from angel Gabriel to Daniel (see Daniel 9: 24-27).

This is the last time schedule that involves a real 2300 days.
 
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Douggg

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2520 days - these are the last 7 years (7x360 = 2520 days); (1260+1260 = 2520);
The formula is this....
The two witnesses testify 1260 days. Are killed by the beast and lay dead in the streets of Jerusalem 3 1/2 days before being resurrected and leaving this world. Which leaves 1256.5 days. The bible uses the 42 months instead of saying 1256.5 days.

blue - first half
red - second half

1260 days
+ 3 1/2 days + 42 months. = the 7 years.

The 42 months is the expression used, because in terms of days the 42 months represents 1256.5 days. The 42 months (1256.5 days) is the time that the beast rules the world unimpeded by the two witnesses.

1260 days
+ 3 1/2 days + 1256.5 days = 2520 days

further more...

1260 days + 3 1/2 days + the unspecified amount of earth time that passes as the war in heaven takes place + the time, times, half times = the 7 years

Now to the 2300 days...

2520 days minus 2300 days = day 220 on the timeline when the animal sacrifices begin again.
 
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pc_home

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The formula is this....
The two witnesses testify 1260 days. Are killed by the beast and lay dead in the streets of Jerusalem 3 1/2 days before being resurrected and leaving this world. Which leaves 1256.5 days. The bible uses the 42 months instead of saying 1256.5 days.

blue - first half
red - second half

1260 days
+ 3 1/2 days + 42 months. = the 7 years.

The 42 months is the expression used, because in terms of days the 42 months represents 1256.5 days. The 42 months (1256.5 days) is the time that the beast rules the world unimpeded by the two witnesses.

1260 days
+ 3 1/2 days + 1256.5 days = 2520 days

further more...

1260 days + 3 1/2 days + the unspecified amount of earth time that passes as the war in heaven takes place + the time, times, half times = the 7 years

Now to the 2300 days...

2520 days minus 2300 days = day 220 on the timeline when the animal sacrifices begin again.

No, no!
42 months are exactly 1260 days (42x30 = 1260), and 3½ *days, because the two witnesses are prophets, are prophetically 3 1/2 days or „each day for a year“ (see Ezekiel 4: 6; see also Numbers 14: 34) = 3 1/2 years,
i.e. "3 1/2 days" in Revelation 11: 9 is a another way to say - realy 1260 days.

1260 days + 3 1/2 prophetically* days (equivalent of 42 months) = the 7 years or 2520 days.

The Two witnesses will rise only after the end of the 7 years (also after the end of 42 months or after the end of 1260 days).

After the end of the last 7 years, according to Daniel 12: 11,12 and Revelation 9: 5,10,15, + has a further 75 days -
1260 days + (719+150+391) days + 30 days (1290 days - Daniel 12: 11) + 45 days (1335 days - Daniel 12: 12),
so calculate the number of the Beast (see Revelation 13: 18):
150+391+30+45 = 616 days - the real number of the Beast is a 616 days, no 666.

1260+{719+[150+391}+30+45] or 1260+719+616 = 2595 days (or 7 years + 75 days) and Jesus comming and kills the Wicked Beast (see 2 Thessalonians 2: 8).
 
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Douggg

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No, no!
42 months are exactly 1260 days (42x30 = 1260), and 3½ *days, because the two witnesses are prophets, are prophetically 3 1/2 days or „each day for a year“ (see Ezekiel 4: 6; see also Numbers 14: 34) = 3 1/2 years,
i.e. "3 1/2 days" in Revelation 11: 9 is a another way to say - realy 1260 days.
The two witnesses prophesy 1260 days. When they are killed by the beast, their bodies lie dead in the streets for 3 1/2 days. Tbe two witnesses are dead during the 3 1/2 days. They are not prophesying to anyone during that time.

You are making a huge mistake in thinking the 42 months is exactly 1260, as if you are solving a math problem, converting units. It doesn't says 42 months in Revelation 13:5 and Revelation 11:2 without a reason.
1260 days + 3 1/2 prophetically* days (equivalent of 42 months) = the 7 years or 2520 days.
The two witnesses, their bodies are going to lie dead in the streets of Jerusalem 3 1/2 years? 3 1/2 years? No, that is not reasonable.

The text says 3 1/2 days. There is no term "3 1/2 years" anywhere in the bible. 7 years, yes. But not 3 1/2 years. The 3 1/2 years term is a tradition of men using the term over and over that it become ingrained in people's mind.

After the end of the last 7 years, according to Daniel 12: 11,12 and Revelation 9: 5,10,15, + has a further 75 days -
1260 days + (719+150+391) days + 30 days (1290 days - Daniel 12: 11) + 45 days (1335 days - Daniel 12: 12),
so calculate the number of the Beast (see Revelation 13: 18):
150+391+30+45 = 616 days - the real number of the Beast is a 616 days, no 666.
Not according to Daniel 12. But...according to your thinking.

There is no 75 days added to the 70 weeks. It is 70 weeks of years. Nothing extends beyond the 7 years.

You have misunderstood the 1290 days and the 1335th day.

I can't understand why you are trying to tie in some quantity of days with 666 (or 616). Because the number is the number of a man's name. Not the net results, the sum of a collection of years.
 
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pc_home

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The two witnesses prophesy 1260 days. When they are killed by the beast, their bodies lie dead in the streets for 3 1/2 days. Tbe two witnesses are dead during the 3 1/2 days. They are not prophesying to anyone during that time.

You are making a huge mistake in thinking the 42 months is exactly 1260, as if you are solving a math problem, converting units. It doesn't says 42 months in Revelation 13:5 and Revelation 11:2 without a reason.

The two witnesses, their bodies are going to lie dead in the streets of Jerusalem 3 1/2 years? 3 1/2 years? No, that is not reasonable.

The text says 3 1/2 days. There is no term "3 1/2 years" anywhere in the bible. 7 years, yes. But not 3 1/2 years. The 3 1/2 years term is a tradition of men using the term over and over that it become ingrained in people's mind.

Not according to Daniel 12. But...according to your thinking.

There is no 75 days added to the 70 weeks. It is 70 weeks of years. Nothing extends beyond the 7 years.

You have misunderstood the 1290 days and the 1335th day.

I can't understand why you are trying to tie in some quantity of days with 666 (or 616). Because the number is the number of a man's name. Not the net results, the sum of a collection of years.

--------------------------------------

The two Witnesses are killed by the Beast (see Revelation 11: 7). As soon as the Beast comes out of the bottomless, he kills them - that is, the death of the Two Witnesses is the beginning of 42 months of the Beast. 42 months are given to the Beast, and all the world wondered after the beast (see Revelation 13: 3), but if only after 3 1/2 literal days (in the beginning of 42 months) the two Witnesses are resurrected and taken up in the sky - this cannot happen. This resurrection of the Two Witnesses is only after the expiration of the second 1260 days, or 42 months, or 3.5 prophetic days, or 3.5 years. That their bodies will be dead (for 3.5 years) is a metaphor...

If I make a mistake that 42x30 is exactly = 1260 days, then what mistake do you do: 42 months = 1256,5 days. Which of the two statements appears to you to be more unreal?

There no 3.5 years directly in the text, but half of the seven (see Dan. 9: 27). If the last 70th is 7 years, then half of these 7 years is: 3.5 years (1260 days) + 3.5 years (42 months or "time, times, and an half").

Daniel 12: 10 speaks - the wise shall understand, and Revelation 13: 18 says – wisdom... understanding. This is a key - the relationship is obvious - the number of the beast is counted as a combination of time periods in Daniel 12 and Revelation 9. Count the number of the beast (see Revelation 13: 18):
150+391+30+45 = 616 days
also
John writes that it is the number of the beast, is the number of a "man" ("man" - the hint of the measures in the image of a "man" in Daniel 3: 1 - the measures 6-10-6 or 616) or the number of his name - the name of Emperor Nero (the first Antichrist, image of the Last Big Antichrist) - „nro qsr“ in Hebrew letters “נרו קסר„ <---
- נ-50+ר-200+ו-6+ק-100+ס-60+ר-200 = 616 <---

The 1000s years began after the 70th week - the time of the Gentiles is only over. On the 75th day after the last 70th week "And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming" (see 2 Thessalonians 2: 8).
 
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Douggg

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If I make a mistake that 42x30 is exactly = 1260 days, then what mistake do you do: 42 months = 1256,5 days. Which of the two statements appears to you to be more unreal?
It is not a mistake if it were a matter of conversion. The mistake is that you think it is a matter of conversion, and not why it says 42 months and not 1260 days in the text. Also, in Revelation 11:2, it says 42 months. In the very next verse it says 1260 days.

The 42 months is not 1256.5 days as a matter of conversion, but as a matter of what it represents - something less than exactly 1260 days - which is why 42 months is used and not 1260 days in those verses.
The two Witnesses are killed by the Beast (see Revelation 11: 7). As soon as the Beast comes out of the bottomless, he kills them - that is, the death of the Two Witnesses is the beginning of 42 months of the Beast. 42 months are given to the Beast, and all the world wondered after the beast (see Revelation 13: 3), but if only after 3 1/2 literal days (in the beginning of 42 months) the two Witnesses are resurrected and taken up in the sky - this cannot happen. This resurrection of the Two Witnesses is only after the expiration of the second 1260 days, or 42 months, or 3.5 prophetic days, or 3.5 years. That their bodies will be dead (for 3.5 years) is a metaphor..
.... And, why can't the two witnesses comeback to life after 3 1/2 literal days?
 
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Revealing Times

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Hi Codger

I heard the Antiochus Epiphanes story before and it is a good one. The only problem is that no mortal man could ever meet the specifications of the horn power in Daniel 8.

“And in the latter time of their kingdom,
When the transgressors have reached their fullness,
A king shall arise,
Having fierce features,
Who understands sinister schemes.
24 His power shall be mighty, but not by his own power;
He shall destroy fearfully,
And shall prosper and thrive;
He shall destroy the mighty, and also the holy people.

25 “Through his cunning
He shall cause deceit to prosper under his rule;[c]
And he shall exalt himself in his heart.
He shall destroy many in their prosperity.
He shall even rise against the Prince of princes;
But he shall be broken without human means.[d]

26 “And the vision of the evenings and mornings
Which was told is true;
Therefore seal up the vision,
For it refers to many days in the future.”


I'm sorry, this is not the description of any mortal man.

It would be fun to think that all the bad Bible stuff is over with. Then I could be a happy go lucky DofJ guy. I'm afraid however that we are living in an intermission between two great periods of Christian persecution. When the next one begins, I imagine the bad guys will be very good at what they do.
Well, you are on the right track here, I can piece two or three posts together and get the right answer. Steve Patterson is right about the Evening and Morning, it never says Day it specifically refers to DUSK and DAWN.

8:14 And he said 559 z8799 unto x413 me, Unto x5704 two thousand 505 and three 7969 hundred 3967 days; 6153 (EREB = DUSK) 1242 (BORAQ = DAWN) then shall the sanctuary 6944 be cleansed. 6663 z8738

So they wrote DAYS in as a Translation for Ereb and Boraq, which means 2300 Dusk and Dawns, which are APPOINTED TIMES to make offerings unto God. To prove this lets look at Daniel 9 and Daniels prayer unto God. It says he set his face toward God to prayer for Israel, to confess Israels sin etc. etc. We can read that prayer he made unto God on behalf of his peoples, then it says Gabriel came in an TOUCHED HIM at the time of the EVENING OBLATION !! Catch that guys? WATCH THIS, ITS REALLY EXCITING !!!

Dan 9:20 And whiles I was speaking, and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the Lord my God for the holy mountain of my God;21 Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.

So Daniel shows us here, if we will only heed him, that there is a Morning and Evening Oblation (A tribute/honoring of God that IS NOT a Sacrifice per se of an Animal). Daniel was praying to the Lord God Almighty, it was done by him in the Morning and the Evening, I think we understand that because he stated this was the Evening Oblation, and in Daniel chapter 8 we see that there was an Evening and a Morning, but Daniel never called them Sacrifices, the English translators ADDED THAT, Watch this below in the Hebrew Massoretic Bible.

Yea, he magnified 1431 z8689 [himself] even to x5704 the prince 8269 of the host, 6635 and by x4480 him the daily 8548 [sacrifice] was taken away, 7311 z8717 z8675 z8689 and the place 4349 of his sanctuary 4720 was cast down. 7993 z8717

I am using a Hebrew Translation Massoretic bible, it has the original Hebrew, the Later Hebrew translation and the actual English Words that match with the Hebrew meaning. The KJV version has added words, and my Hebrew bible places them in BRACKETS []. So above we see that [himself] and [sacrifice] are not in the original Hebrew texts.

So what does the DAILY actually mean? Is it really going to be a Sacrifice in the Temple, or have the English translations gotten it wrong? Well since Daniel was Praying unto God, Worshiping God at the Evening Oblation, why can't the Jews be in the Temple worshiping the TRUE GOD/Jesus in like manner after they have accepted Jesus as their Messiah?

So the 2300 is really the 1150 and we know the Beast reign of Jerusalem and over the Saints is for 1260 Days. So it fits right into the time frame. The Beast must conquer Jerusalem and then he defiles the Temple at a later date. Maybe 110 days or so later he takes away the Daily [OBLATIONS] instead of [SACRIFICES].

I think we are getting at the truth of this matter slowly but surely.
 
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Dave Watchman

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6153 (EREB = DUSK) 1242 (BORAQ = DAWN)

8Pn9IJP.jpg


:)
 
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pc_home

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It is possible that the Jewish priests have associated the nearly 8-year cycle of the "evening-morning" star (planet Venus, called "Prince Michael") with the expression "ereb-boqer" "evening-morning" (see Genesis 1: 5,8,13,19,23,29), counting, related to the Temple of Jerusalem, sacred "sevens" of 8 time periods? If we assume that the ancients counted the days of one year as 360 days, then 8 years x360 days = 2880 days; if the 70 "sevens" in Daniel 9: 24 are actually 70 "sacred sevens" of x8 days, i.e. 70x8 = 560 days, which are cut off from 2880 days, i.e. 2880-560 = 2320 days; but, since the text of Daniel 8: 14 says 2300 "evening-morning" (see Daniel 8: 14), it could be concluded that, Daniel was therefore in fasting until 21 day (3x7 = 21 days; see Daniel 10: 2,13a). After 3 days, on the 24th day of the first month, Daniel received a vision of the war of Prince Michael (planet Venus) with the opposing Prince of Persia ["Bahram" "the one who opposes (resist)", in greek - the "devil" of the "enemy" - the planet Mars]. [The same war between Venus and Mars (see Daniel 10: 20; cf. Revelation 12: 7) occurred, hundreds of years earlier, at the death and resurrection of Moses (see Jude 1: 9), as, and several hundred years later (after the time of the events described in Daniel Ch. 10) - at the death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ on the third day (see Luke 18: 33; Acts of the Apostles 10: 40) ( cf. Revelation 11: 11a).
 
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keras

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There is no 75 days added to the 70 weeks. It is 70 weeks of years. Nothing extends beyond the 7 years.

You have misunderstood the 1290 days and the 1335th day. .
The misunderstanding is yours.
The idea of placing the extra 30 and 75 days of Daniel 12:11-12, is wrong and only made to suit the belief that it's all over when Jesus Returns.
The logical and normal way to see Daniels extra days, is that they extend after the Return. This fits with 30 days needed to destroy the AC's army and chain him up. To gather His faithful people; Matthew 24:31, and do other things necessary to start His Millennium reign.

Then; after a further 45 days, [1335 since the AC desecrated the Temple] the Temple will be cleansed and re-dedicated, as it was after 1150 days, [2300 evenings and mornings] after A4E desecrated the 2nd Temple in 164BC.
 
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Douggg

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This fits with 30 days needed to destroy the AC's army and chain him up. To gather His faithful people; Matthew 24:31, and do other things necessary to start His Millennium reign.
Why would you think it would take Jesus 30 days to destroyed that armies that have gathered to make war on Him?

Then; after a further 45 days, [1335 since the AC desecrated the Temple] the Temple will be cleansed and re-dedicated, as it was after 1150 days, [2300 evenings and mornings] after A4E desecrated the 2nd Temple in 164BC.
Cleansed of what, during that 45 days?
 
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keras

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Why would you think it would take Jesus 30 days to destroyed that armies that have gathered to make war on Him?
All those things would take more than one day. 30 days is not unreasonable.
Cleansed of what, during that 45 days?
Why do I need to point out to you facts you should know, as someone who has posted on Bible prophecy forums for many years, but is still ignorant of writings like 1 Maccabees 4:36-58?
This describes the process of cleansing and rededication done after Antiochus 4th Epiphanes had slaughtered a pig on the Altar. It doesn't say exactly how long it took, but reading what they had to do; 45 days would be barely enough.
 
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Douggg

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All those things would take more than one day. 30 days is not unreasonable.

The armies of the world are like ants to God. Jesus will speak and they all will fall dead.

Why do I need to point out to you facts you should know, as someone who has posted on Bible prophecy forums for many years, but is still ignorant of writings like 1 Maccabees 4:36-58?
This describes the process of cleansing and rededication done after Antiochus 4th Epiphanes had slaughtered a pig on the Altar. It doesn't say exactly how long it took, but reading what they had to do; 45 days would be barely enough.
Where are you reading anything about a rededication of the great tribulation temple? And I asked you what that temple need to be cleansed of? What will make it desolate?
 
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keras

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The armies of the world are like ants to God. Jesus will speak and they all will fall dead.

Where are you reading anything about a rededication of the great tribulation temple? And I asked you what that temple need to be cleansed of? What will make it desolate?
I reply for the sake of others here:

Looking at the 3 scriptures that describe the Return of Jesus, Zechariah 14:3-5, Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:11-23, there is more than what can happen in one day. 30 days would be about right for things to be sorted and settled.

The new Temple will be desecrated by the Anti-Christ leader of the World Government taking over Jerusalem. Zechariah 14:1-2
As Paul tells us in 2 Thessalonians 2:4 and in Daniel 11:31.
 
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joshua 1 9

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Dan.8:13-14, "I have read most all the commentaries concerning the following verses and few have little to say, and the others make little sense after I considered the context in which they are written. What are your thoughts concerning the meaning of the 2300 days?

"I (Daniel) heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? And he said unto me, unto two thousand and three hundred days; than shall the sanctuary be cleansed."

Phil LaSpino
Sounds like the 7 year tribulation period. Usually Israel is a shadow and type of the church but Daniel was writing directly to the Church.
 
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joshua 1 9

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What will make it desolate?
The Antichrist will try to set himself up as God: "I will make myself like the Most High". (Isaiah 14:14)

"he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God." (2 Thes 2:4)
 
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Looking at the 3 scriptures that describe the Return of Jesus, Zechariah 14:3-5, Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:11-21, there is more than what can happen in one day. 30 days would be about right for things to be sorted and settled.
The issue was specifically (1) the destruction of the armies (2) the cleansing of the temple from what was making it desolate.

All in the 1 day of Jesus return to this earth.

1. Armies gathered to make war on Jesus - He speaks and they fall dead.

2. The false prophet and beast cast into the lake of fire; the AoD statue image turned to ashes; Satan exposed and cast into the bottomless pit. Temple cleansed of those things that were making it desolate, on the day that Jesus returns.

imo, that particular temple itself will not be the millennial temple.
______________________________________________

The 1290 days and 1335 days deal specifically with...

1. (the start) The stopping of the daily sacrifice

2. (the end) The removal of the AoD.

The daily sacrifice will be stopped at the time the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolate. The AoD will be destroyed 1335 days later.

Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
 
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