Dispensationalism - Open Discussion

food4thought

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That is an interpretation that your presenting and is incorrect. The opposite reading of these verses is true of course.

lol... of course.

These three verses quoted are talking about not wasting yourself in loose living before that day arrives. These verses are directed at the disciples not at Herod and Caesar or the world.

Please do a word search of "dwell" and "earth" in the book of Revelation. It will open your eyes to the meaning of those who dwell on the earth.

Jesus is simply saying don't waste your life in worldly pursuits, otherwise that day when it occurs will catch you out.

I can agree with that, at least.
 
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klutedavid

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Perhaps if Reformed relied on proof texts instead of considering the entire thought, passage and theme of what Paul was speaking of here.
If you take Romans 9-11 then it becomes clear what he was teaching. That God is sovereign in all His choosing.
That is not really what Paul is talking about in the letter to the Romans. This is one letter written by Paul to the church in Rome and is firmly aimed at the Jews in Rome.

The Jewish influence on the Roman church will be legal and deadly. Paul starts on the Jews in chapter two of Romans and does not let up until chapter eleven.

Roman's Chapter nine that your quoting from
regarding God's sovereign will is not what Paul is discussing. Paul is saying that faith would underpin a person's salvation and not legal works.

This was the great mystery that these Gentiles who did not have the law, would attain the righteousness of Christ through faith in that Christ and not by legalism as the Jews had pursued righteousness.

Romans 9:30-31
What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law.
 
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food4thought

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On second thought, I'll save you the time and post the verses here (although looking at them in context is even more revealing):

Rev_3:10 'Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.
Rev_6:10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"
Rev_8:13 Then I looked, and I heard an eagle flying in midheaven, saying with a loud voice, "Woe, woe, woe to those who dwell on the earth, because of the remaining blasts of the trumpet of the three angels who are about to sound!"
Rev_11:10 And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and celebrate; and they will send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth.
Rev_13:8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.
Rev_13:12 He exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence. And he makes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose fatal wound was healed.
Rev_13:14 And he deceives those who dwell on the earth because of the signs which it was given him to perform in the presence of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who *had the wound of the sword and has come to life.
Rev_17:2 with whom the kings of the earth committed acts of immorality, and those who dwell on the earth were made drunk with the wine of her immorality."
Rev_17:8 "The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come.​

Revelation 17:8 is particularly pointed, don't you think?
 
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klutedavid

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lol... of course.



Please do a word search of "dwell" and "earth" in the book of Revelation. It will open your eyes to the meaning of those who dwell on the earth.



I can agree with that, at least.
Thank you.

The letters in the New Testament are simple letters written to confused churches. People attempt to plug them into each other and we end up with a thousand church movements.
 
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food4thought

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The letters in the New Testament are simple letters written to confused churches. People attempt to plug them into each other and we end up with a thousand church movements.

The Bible is a coherent whole, brother.
 
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klutedavid

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The Bible is a coherent whole, brother.
I just see an assortment of letters and at times unrelated letters, that people try to see as a unified and coherent New Testament.

For example, the letter to the Hebrews is unrelated to the letter to the second letter to the Thessalonians.

The letter to the Philippians has nothing in common with say the letter to the Galatians.

The Christ is the crowning central message but the churches all have their own specific issues.

The Old Testament is mainly about the formation of the nation of Israel and their failure to obey the law.

Coherent as a whole I don't think so, except for the revelation of the Christ.
 
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klutedavid

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On second thought, I'll save you the time and post the verses here (although looking at them in context is even more revealing):

Rev_3:10 'Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.
Rev_6:10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"
Rev_8:13 Then I looked, and I heard an eagle flying in midheaven, saying with a loud voice, "Woe, woe, woe to those who dwell on the earth, because of the remaining blasts of the trumpet of the three angels who are about to sound!"
Rev_11:10 And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and celebrate; and they will send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth.
Rev_13:8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.
Rev_13:12 He exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence. And he makes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose fatal wound was healed.
Rev_13:14 And he deceives those who dwell on the earth because of the signs which it was given him to perform in the presence of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who *had the wound of the sword and has come to life.
Rev_17:2 with whom the kings of the earth committed acts of immorality, and those who dwell on the earth were made drunk with the wine of her immorality."
Rev_17:8 "The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come.​

Revelation 17:8 is particularly pointed, don't you think?
Some selected verses from the book of Revelation can be interpreted in various ways.

Which method of interpretation do you use?
 
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food4thought

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Some selected verses from the book of Revelation can be interpreted in various ways.

Which method of interpretation do you use?

Words have meaning, whether they be symbolic, metaphorical, or literal. I use what is called the "normal" hermeneutic, which is basically a literal hermeneutic that recognizes the existence of different genres, as well as the use of symbolic and metaphorical language. The key is context, context, context.

1) Context of the immediate passage.
2) Context of the book
3) Context of the entire Bible
 
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redleghunter

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Someone has their wires crossed here.

Exegesis is critical explanation or interpretation of a text, especially of scripture. Exegesis itself is an interpretation of the scripture. This is the point that I am making; that all church movements apply an interpretation or exegesis to the scripture.

A premise is a previous statement or proposition from which another is inferred or follows as a conclusion.

An interpretation that is based on the idea of God's sovereignty as the primary premise is an exegesis of the scripture and is called Calvinism.

You cant sit there and tell me that Calvinism is not an exegesis of the scripture?
Exegesis is drawing the truth from Scriptures. Not reading in to the text.
 
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redleghunter

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God may very well be sovereign over all His creation and His will is absolute. But that does not automatically remove love and forgiveness from the exegesis. After all is said and done, and above all, God is love.

Be very careful with any premise that you hold onto while you read the text. Many a fool has entered an inquisition with a flawed interpretation of the scripture, and unfortunately never returned.
If you have read any of the Reformers you would not be making these statements.
 
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redleghunter

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That is not really what Paul is talking about in the letter to the Romans. This is one letter written by Paul to the church in Rome and is firmly aimed at the Jews in Rome.
Is that why he addresses Gentiles as well?
 
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klutedavid

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Words have meaning, whether they be symbolic, metaphorical, or literal. I use what is called the "normal" hermeneutic, which is basically a literal hermeneutic that recognizes the existence of different genres, as well as the use of symbolic and metaphorical language. The key is context, context, context.

1) Context of the immediate passage.
2) Context of the book
3) Context of the entire Bible
You are aware that there are, I think, ten or more different views in eschatology.

Though context is king in the scripture and I cannot press this point hard enough. Failure to consider the context in a letter is probably the greatest error, that churches commit, time and time again, all throughout church history.

Though the book of revelation is profoundly difficult to interpret and far beyond my pay scale.

I do not have a subscription to any eschatology so I cannot ever be in error.
 
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klutedavid

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Is that why he addresses Gentiles as well?
Some how you missed the theme of the letter to the Romans.

So I will ask you to whom is Paul talking in this paragraph below?

Romans 2:17-21
But if you bear the name “Jew” and rely upon the Law and boast in God, and know His will and approve the things that are essential, being instructed out of the Law, and are confident that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, a corrector of the foolish, a teacher of the immature, having in the Law the embodiment of knowledge and of the truth, you, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself?
 
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klutedavid

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Is that why he addresses Gentiles as well?
The letter to the Romans on the surface is addressed to the Gentiles. But you don't need to read very far into Romans before Paul arcs up and addresses the Jews directly.
 
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redleghunter

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Perhaps you can explain why the resurrection accounts are different in each gospel?

Coherent? Certainly not.
Different eyewitness accounts. None contradict. If they were all the same I would be suspicious.
 
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redleghunter

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Some how you missed the theme of the letter to the Romans.

So I will ask you to whom is Paul talking in this paragraph below?

Romans 2:17-21
But if you bear the name “Jew” and rely upon the Law and boast in God, and know His will and approve the things that are essential, being instructed out of the Law, and are confident that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, a corrector of the foolish, a teacher of the immature, having in the Law the embodiment of knowledge and of the truth, you, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself?
Chapter 1 was about Gentiles.
 
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klutedavid

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Different eyewitness accounts. None contradict. If they were all the same I would be suspicious.
So are they coherent, unified, accounts of the resurrection?

I don't think you will be able to find anyone, who has been able to unify the resurrection accounts.

The fact that the resurrection accounts are not synoptic by definition. Is powerful evidence that that the resurrection did occur. I prefer various accounts rather than some singular source that had been copied by other gospel authors.

These resurrection accounts are not specifically unified but coherent in a wider way.
 
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