Should fat people pay more for health insurance?

Desk trauma said:

Neither is an option for most people and wild game populations cannot satisfy the US meat demand sustainable.

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I'm talking about options for the individual... And there are plenty ofpeople that live in cities and still hunt. Lots of places in the states have excellent Wildlife populations contrary to a lot of what you read on the internet.

LaBèlla said:

You can save a lot buying direct from the farmer. Bulk meat is cheaper in the long run.

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We go directly to the butcher and buy half a pig, if we run out of deer meat...it's hard to believe the price of meat in grocery stores.

renniks said:

We go directly to the butcher and buy half a pig, if we run out of deer meat...it's hard to believe the price of meat in grocery stores.

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That’s another approach too. I’m trying to procure most things farmer direct when possible. We have a year round farmers market. I don’t need much from the grocer.

iluvatar5150 said:

But that bag of fries is a lot bigger than a banana:
https://www.target.com/p/ore-ida-extra-crispy-frozen-fast-food-fries-26oz/-/A-13257873?ref=tgt_adv_XS000000&AFID=google_pla_df&fndsrc=tgtao&CPNG=PLA_Grocery+Shopping_Local&adgroup=SC_Grocery&LID=700000001170770pgs&network=g&device=c&location=9007901&gclid=CjwKCAjw_uDsBRAMEiwAaFiHa8BY6_lvt2usdtZcbqhqXZiwEmOwn18O3IM7uS6T5d2wkpTEmkg9phoCbZ4QAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

26 oz of fries for $3.19.

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So 26oz of fries (less than 2lbs) for $3.19
From target's same website...


So I guess I'm not sure what you're getting at... You could buy 4 pounds of bananas for less than one 26oz package of fries.


That may make sense (in terms of how much mileage you get from it) if people actually ate only the recommended serving size, but not everyone is a "food nerd" like some of us (myself included in that list lol) that actually weighs out their food with a food scale. ...or if fries were a main course and not an optional side dish.

Sure, you could get several "servings" of fries out of that bag if you only at the recommended serving size listed on the package...but most people aren't doing that. Most of those frozen bags of fries have a serving size of 84 grams. It's an eye opener to use a food scale and see exactly how little those serving sizes are.

In fact, on frozen fries in particular, I always found it comical that the serving sizes and quantities on the package say (84g package contains 10 servings), yet, the cooking instructions listed come in 2 forms "For 1/2 bag" or "For whole bag".

...they know 99% of people aren't just eating a serving.

LaBèlla said:

You can save a lot buying direct from the farmer. Bulk meat is cheaper in the long run.

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It's exceedingly rare that I find buying straight from the farmer to be any cheaper or more worthwhile. I don't think I've ever seen meat/poultry as cheap as in the grocery store (except, perhaps, if you're buying nicer cuts) and while produce can sometimes be cheaper, the quality is often diminished. Buying at farmer's markets IME is more akin to buying at a day-old store. Produce goes bad MUCH faster than it does from the grocery store.

Buying meat in bulk is often not an option for people living in smaller dwellings.

SkyWriting said:

Pretending they are different from you is counter-productive.
We will assume "productive" means that alienation is bad
and dialogue is an option.

You feeling superior, is not our goal.

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Has nothing to do with "feeling" anything...

There are things that are objective, and things that are subjective. The health risks (and thus, public health costs) associated with being significantly overweight aren't opinion-based. They're based on solid medical and scientific research.

Nobody is trying to alienate anyone or shun them from society, nobody is suggesting we all line up and make weight jokes. What people are suggesting is that A) certain behaviors lead to greater public health costs, and people engaging in those behaviors should shoulder more of a proportionate responsibility for that if they're unwilling to change those behaviors, and B) we shouldn't be embracing a movement that's basically lying to people and telling them "you can be healthy at any size and you're perfect they way you are" just so that they can be insulated from having to make sacrifices with their food choices.

The expression 'comfortable lies' comes to mind... some folks like eating food that's bad for you, and don't like the idea of having to give up something they like doing, so movements that embrace they idea that 'you're perfect and you don't have to change a thing!' are particularly appealing.

Or, another version of that expression, "People love hearing good news about their bad habits"



Imagine we were talking about smoking and not obesity for a moment...

Would anyone suggest that telling a pack-a-day smoker that "hey you should cut back" as Smoker Shaming?

What would the public response be to a "healthy at any amount of lung damage" marketing campaign?

iluvatar5150 said:

It's exceedingly rare that I find buying straight from the farmer to be any cheaper or more worthwhile. I don't think I've ever seen meat/poultry as cheap as in the grocery store (except, perhaps, if you're buying nicer cuts)

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In terms of cost? No, there's no benefit.

Some people, and I'm including myself on this, choose to buy from sources that are more ethical and pay more for it out of principle.

For instance, I haven't touched factory farmed red meat in nearly two years.

I buy bison from a local bison farm (that allows you to tour their operation) that's about 20 mins from where I live simply because, while I know killing the animals still isn't a pleasant experience for them, their life is still "less unpleasant" than that of cows living in a factory farming environment...at least they get to walk around in an open field and not be locked in tight spaces and tortured before they're butchered, and there's stricter regulations in place regarding how bison have to be raised and treated than there are for cows.

iluvatar5150 said:

It's exceedingly rare that I find buying straight from the farmer to be any cheaper or more worthwhile.

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Buying meat in bulk farmer direct is less expensive. You’re charged by the hanging weight plus butcher costs. The per pound rate is significantly less than the grocers charge by cut.

Buying at farmer's markets IME is more akin to buying at a day-old store. Produce goes bad MUCH faster than it does from the grocery store.

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That hadn’t been my experience as a customer or when I worked on an organic farm. We harvested a few days before the market. What you have in the store is much older when you factor in transportation. Produce at the farmers markets is significantly fresher. I can tell the difference by the taste and firmness.

Buying meat in bulk is often not an option for people living in smaller dwellings.

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You can store an 1/8th of a cow in a small freezer or one attached to a refrigerator. Many people purchase with friends for greater savings.

LaBèlla said:

Buying meat in bulk farmer direct is less expensive. You’re charged by the hanging weight plus butcher costs. The per pound rate is significantly less than the grocers charge by cut.

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Right, by cut. You're often forced into buying a bunch of expensive cuts, no?

What's the average cost per pound for, say, 1/4 cow?

That hadn’t been my experience as a customer or when I worked on an organic farm. We harvested a few days before the market. What you have in the store is much older when you factor in transportation. Produce at the farmers markets is significantly fresher. I can tell the difference by the taste and firmness.

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IME, greens are particularly bad - most everything in the store is nice and crisp, whereas the farmers market stuff often looks like it's been sitting in a truck for a couple days.

I've got a flower share from a CSA this year and am finding a similar thing - they wilt much faster than the same flowers from my florist (who only sources locally). The florist said it's probably due to the lack of adequate refrigeration on the part of the farmer, which would make sense for the greens, too.

iluvatar5150 said:

Right, by cut. You're often forced into buying a bunch of expensive cuts, no?

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I buy organic grass-fed beef. Its more economical purchasing direct. Plus I get the cuts and thickness to my preference.

What's the average cost per pound for, say, 1/4 cow?

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That depends on the farmer. Some charge by hanging weight and others by finished weight. Here’s an example based on hanging weight:

• 1/8 of a beef (app 115 pounds) 3.99/lb.
• Split side (1/4 of beef) app 225 pounds 3.82/lb.
• Half beef app 450 pounds 3.67/lb.

An 1/8th would finish between 75 to 85 pounds. The price includes the butcher, flash freezing and vacuum seal.

IME, greens are particularly bad - most everything in the store is nice and crisp, whereas the farmers market stuff often looks like it's been sitting in a truck for a couple days.

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That’s a farmer issue. We kept our harvests and CSA boxes in a walk-in cooler.

I've got a flower share from a CSA this year and am finding a similar thing - they wilt much faster than the same flowers from my florist (who only sources locally). The florist said it's probably due to the lack of adequate refrigeration on the part of the farmer, which would make sense for the greens, too.

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I only purchase white lilies and dahlias. I get 3-4 weeks on both. I don’t use plant food. I change the water daily and do a fresh cut. And I use filtered water (or leave the tap out overnight). They last much longer.

OldWiseGuy said:

Note that I said climate, not weather.

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I noted that when I lol'd.

ThatRobGuy said:

Fries being cheaper than fresh fruit at McDonald's isn't reflective of the overall market for these two items as you can get the fresh fruit much cheaper at a grocery store. A bag of Ore Ida fries from the grocery store is about $4, whereas apples are about $0.50 a piece and bananas are around $0.30 a piece.

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Factor in the time function.

That's what people here have been refusing to do.

If you're on the go, it's *worth it* to, say, buy a tub of heat-and-eat shredded beef or enchiladas or chicken stew or whatnot than to have to stop and run prep time yourself.

This is how the average person is going to think.

Pay more for health insurance? What if they can't afford it to begin with?

Akita Suggagaki said:

Pay more for health insurance? What if they can't afford it to begin with?

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That's the situation I'm in.

My "Affordable" Care Act insurance policy eats about 60% of my monthly pay, leaving me with very little to actually seek medical treatment.

And if it tells you how lousy my policy is, I had to pay $2200 out-of-pocket for a kidney stone once all was said and done; my finances haven't been the same since.

Ironhold said:

Factor in the time function.

That's what people here have been refusing to do.

If you're on the go, it's *worth it* to, say, buy a tub of heat-and-eat shredded beef or enchiladas or chicken stew or whatnot than to have to stop and run prep time yourself.

This is how the average person is going to think.

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...but even if it's a matter of convenience, and someone is claiming they don't have time to make their own food and that's why they're going to a fast food joint instead, the fast food establishments have been forced (via public pressure) to offer the healthier options at the same price as their mainstay options, it hasn't made a dent in it.

At the end of the day, it's because people think a big mac and fries tastes better than a salad, and so that's why they're making the choice to go with that instead of the grilled chicken salad.

Virtually every grocery store has a section with pre-made food that you can "heat and eat" that's much healthier than the foods that most people are getting for "heat and eat", and roughly the same price.

I have certain weeks when I'm "on the go" quite a bit and while I don't do it for budget reasons, I'll do it for convenience reasons. I can snag 3-4 pre-cooked chicken breasts for ~$8, and a container of garlic green beans for $3... $11 total, and I can make 3 meals out of that ( < $4 per meal...cheaper than a value meal from a fast food joint)


The part of this that nobody is acknowledging, is that our culture has some pretty low will-power with regards to food consumption. People seem to be conditioned to think that "every meal has to have a flavor of indulgence, every meal has to have a dessert at the end, and I have to eat until I'm full at every meal"

I've kind of touched on various aspects all throughout this thread, but no matter what budget or price constraints a person is under, and whether or not the person is looking to do self-prep or is under time constraints and wants "heat & eat", there are healthier, less calorically dense options at every budget level than what people are currently eating...it's just that people don't want them, they want the indulgent-tasting food. It's a combination of personal choices and self-control (or lack of)


Thus far, the earlier claims in this thread about how "people in poverty are more obese because unhealthy food is cheaper" has yet to be substantiated, and nobody has provided any sort of example that's not easily refutable when looking at the numbers in terms of cost and calorie count.

Even if a person is claiming that someone is so poor, that they literally have only $3 a day to spend on food and are so crunched for time that the only option just get three $1 gas station burritos per day, while not nutritious, those are only 400 calories a piece and nobody is becoming obese on 1200 calories per day.

So, with regards to the original discussion points earlier in the thread in terms of poverty/obesity, you're not going to become obese without a consistently high caloric surplus over an extended period of time, and if you're eating a caloric surplus, there's no way to do that without spending the amount that would be adequate for getting healthier options.

SummerMadness said:

If healthy food is more expensive than cheap calorie rich food, what do you think families will choose? Making people pay more in health insurance is not the answer, the culprit has always been the industrialization of our food production. And when you have politicians working to classify ketchup and tomato paste on pizza as a vegetable, it should be of no surprise why we have an obesity problem in the US.

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Corn, wheat, and meat have huge subsidies but where is the broccoli lobby?